Christopaganism

[InspiringRaine]

I've been through a bit of a religious turmoil that's ripped up any and all roots I was cultivating before. My foundation is gone. As such, it's taken me a long time to really examine what I feel most closely aligned with. The answer that is turning up resembles something akin to Christo-paganism, but is still a bit different.

I am really wanting to get people's opinion's on Christo-paganism, and see what y'all have to say on the matter. I know the term seems almost contradictory, but I'm not really educated enough about different sects of Christianity as I am different types of paganism.

If it helps anybody, I can describe how I'm personally approaching the term, but I'd rather wait to do so in the comments. Let me know what y'all's thinky brains think about the term! Thanks.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

My opinion (Since you asked) is that a lot of Christo-Pagans are people who are having trouble letting go of old baggage, or are trying to get into something new when they are really still Christian. As somebody who once identified as this, I realise now it was only because I was worried about leaving Christianity, and the ramifications it might have with Jesus etc. Once I realized that doing this was insulting to all deities involved, I stopped, realised the source of this, and am comfortable now.

[habbalah]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

I try to be non-judgmental of other people's paths. I know we have at least one other Christopagan on this board, so her opinion would be more valuable. I will follow on a little of what Doc said, though. Do you practice magic or divination? Do you believe your answers and or abilities come from Jesus (or any other divine entity in the religion)? What part of your path makes it Christo? What makes it pagan? Do the two sides marry for you, or do you feel uncomfortable holding both beliefs at once?

You don't have to answer me, if you don't feel ready to or comfortable doing so. It's just food for thought.

[Mr. T]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

ooops, Thalassa opened the wrong account and started posting...

[thalassa]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

Over the years I've known a number of Christo-pagans (though I'm not a fan of the name, and in my experience, a number of them aren't either). Some of them have been as Doc has mentioned...in a transitory phase. Some have not. Some of them have obviously been thoughtful and researched and nuanced in the manner that they have brought two disparate systems together into an organic whole, not unlike the evolution of some of the African synchretic traditions. Some have not. While Christo-paganism isn't my cup of tea, I find the phenomenon interesting, in terms of learning how different people choose to do it and why. (I might add that I also find some of the criticism of it on both the Pagan and the Christian end be trite and overdone, and obviously ignorant of the diversity of Christianity...but some of the criticism I also find to be of merit)

Probably the most thoughtful reconciliation of the two I've encountered was a small group of people practicing what they called Trinitarian Wicca about 7 years ago or so....I've run into a couple versions of something called Trintarian or Trinity Wicca over the years, but they've not been the same group or teaching (some similarities though). This group practiced in an Eclectic Wiccan ritual style, celebrated the Wheel of the Year (with a slightly different mythology), observed the Wiccan Rede (the short one, and rewrote the long one to better fit their beliefs), but worshiped a sort of unorthodox triune where the Lord is God as the Father (also as the *idea* of creation, and Sky/Heaven), the Lady is the Holy Spirit as the Wisdom of god (Sophia, Shekinah, etc), and Jesus as The Christ and the Divine Child--Logos, or the Word...in which Jesus is more of a demigod...sort of the Ultimate expression of humanity's divinity, and what we should all strive for. They acknowledge the Bible as a historical text and non-literal mythology, as well as a number of apocrypha (including the Gnostic Gospels). Other than that, I know that they taught reincarnation as part of their tradition (which isn't as unusual as some might think among Christians--my grandparents as Christians and they believe in reincarnation, and can even point to numerous passages in the Bible that allude to it with far more rigor than it alludes to the Trinity), in which the "goal" of reincarnation is to achieve the same sort of uber-divine humanity state as Jesus (which they believe has been achieved by a handful of folks, including the Apostles (but not Paul), Mohammed, Buddah, etc.

I've also met a number of "Pagans for Jesus" (as my friend Matt called himself)--basically a sort of pantheistic or non-tradition specific polytheistic, and in one case atheist Pagan that have a Jeffersonian take on Jesus...the New Testament minus the miracles sort of grafted onto their version of Paganism, in which Jesus becomes a sort of...semi-Divine Teacher or almost Ancestor status. And, on the other side, I've known a number of Christians that graft different aspects of Paganism into their practices--I know an Episcopalian that also celebrates a naturalistic Wheel of the Year (which are often associated with various Catholic holy days anyhow) and regards the Holy Spirit in a traditional sort of Trinity as the Divine Feminine...

Suffice to say, if you take this as your path, you aren't alone...but expect shit from both halves, the Christian and the Pagan. (but it won't come from me) But its good to be prepared, to think about these things, and to have some sort of justification for them. Even if you never give that justification to anyone (because you don't own anyone justification of your beliefs) its a good personal growth experience. Some of the questions habbalah offered are a good start.

[InspiringRaine]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

My opinion (Since you asked) is that a lot of Christo-Pagans are people who are having trouble letting go of old baggage, or are trying to get into something new when they are really still Christian. As somebody who once identified as this, I realise now it was only because I was worried about leaving Christianity, and the ramifications it might have with Jesus etc. Once I realized that doing this was insulting to all deities involved, I stopped, realised the source of this, and am comfortable now.

I most certainly did as for your opinion and I thank you for giving it.

I try to be non-judgmental of other people's paths. I know we have at least one other Christopagan on this board, so her opinion would be more valuable. I will follow on a little of what Doc said, though. Do you practice magic or divination? Do you believe your answers and or abilities come from Jesus (or any other divine entity in the religion)? What part of your path makes it Christo? What makes it pagan? Do the two sides marry for you, or do you feel uncomfortable holding both beliefs at once?

You don't have to answer me, if you don't feel ready to or comfortable doing so. It's just food for thought.

I do forms of energy work, but I don't do any formal kind of magic due to my living situation. I guess I'd believe that any answers one receives through divination would come from a deity source in general, not even Jesus specific. I can't exclude other's beliefs, so I would consider it problematic for me to believe that my own or anybody else's abilities/answers come from Jesus/God/Holy Spirit.

As for what makes it pagan? I suppose the fact that I'm still a polytheist, but I stopped excluding The Trinity of Christ from my pantheon. My view of God in the trinity is panentheistic pantheism, in that God is both inclusive in us all, and also /other/ or /outside/ of myself. But, that part that is /other/ includes other forms of Deity. For example; Sekhmet, Djehuty, Odin, Loki, Zeus, etc.

[Noir]

[InspiringRaine]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

ooops, Thalassa opened the wrong account and started posting...

And what is that suppose to mean?

Probably the most thoughtful reconciliation of the two I've encountered was a small group of people practicing what they called Trinitarian Wicca about 7 years ago or so....I've run into a couple versions of something called Trintarian or Trinity Wicca over the years, but they've not been the same group or teaching (some similarities though). This group practiced in an Eclectic Wiccan ritual style, celebrated the Wheel of the Year (with a slightly different mythology), observed the Wiccan Rede (the short one, and rewrote the long one to better fit their beliefs), but worshiped a sort of unorthodox triune where the Lord is God as the Father (also as the *idea* of creation, and Sky/Heaven), the Lady is the Holy Spirit as the Wisdom of god (Sophia, Shekinah, etc), and Jesus as The Christ and the Divine Child--Logos, or the Word...in which Jesus is more of a demigod...sort of the Ultimate expression of humanity's divinity, and what we should all strive for. They acknowledge the Bible as a historical text and non-literal mythology, as well as a number of apocrypha (including the Gnostic Gospels). Other than that, I know that they taught reincarnation as part of their tradition (which isn't as unusual as some might think among Christians--my grandparents as Christians and they believe in reincarnation, and can even point to numerous passages in the Bible that allude to it with far more rigor than it alludes to the Trinity), in which the "goal" of reincarnation is to achieve the same sort of uber-divine humanity state as Jesus (which they believe has been achieved by a handful of folks, including the Apostles (but not Paul), Mohammed, Buddah, etc.

I'm VERY interested in this, just by your description of it. Thank you very much for your long and thoughtful post. I trimmed it down to the specific part I was most interested in, and was responding to. I shall use my googlefu to find out more about this trinitarian wicca.

[thalassa]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

And what is that suppose to mean?

Lol, my husband has an account here. To keep things simple on our end, with passwords and stuff, he uses Chrome and I use Firefox. Problem is, sometimes he's on chrome already and its open, and I go to PF and don't notice til I've posted from his account. Which is what happened there. One of the benefits of being staff is that I can then edit what I posted from his account and re-post it as myself...but I didn't want to delete the post all together in case someone noticed what was going on and got anymore confused.

[thalassa]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

Unfortunately, when you googlemancy, this is probably the Trinitarian Wicca you will run into (more info)...
Although, its possible (since it predates the group I know of) that at least some of their inspiration came form them (or not). It might be looking into anyhow...

As far as I am aware of, the group I'm talking about never had much of an internet presence. I only knew two of their members well, though I'd been at some of the same local events. I don't even know if they are still around, and I've not been in contact with the two people in question in years. Most of them were military...so its safe to bet they've gone their separate ways awhile ago.

I still think its an interesting interpretation, and I wish I knew more to tell people when they have questions like yours.

[Torey]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

I've been through a bit of a religious turmoil that's ripped up any and all roots I was cultivating before. My foundation is gone. As such, it's taken me a long time to really examine what I feel most closely aligned with. The answer that is turning up resembles something akin to Christo-paganism, but is still a bit different.

I am really wanting to get people's opinion's on Christo-paganism, and see what y'all have to say on the matter. I know the term seems almost contradictory, but I'm not really educated enough about different sects of Christianity as I am different types of paganism.

If it helps anybody, I can describe how I'm personally approaching the term, but I'd rather wait to do so in the comments. Let me know what y'all's thinky brains think about the term! Thanks.

I have no issues with Christo-Paganism being a legitimate path. I often find that the same "arguments" I hear people make about how Christianity and Paganism aren't compatible are the same made for when they attempt to invalidate my path by telling me that a Satanist can't be a Pagan because I venerate a "Christian" deity. :shakefist:

[AnMa]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

I am really wanting to get people's opinion's on Christo-paganism, and see what y'all have to say on the matter. I know the term seems almost contradictory, but I'm not really educated enough about different sects of Christianity as I am different types of paganism.

For a pagan (polytheist) Christ is just another deity or demigod (however you interpret this trinity stuff), so there is no problem to have him in your pantheon. For a Christian on the other hand it is not possible to have other gods beside their own. Imho you have to decline monotheism to be a pagan - as a Christian you have to accept it. That is intrinsically contradicting, so you have to decide whether you are a monotheist with a mainly Christian god image plus some others OR to be a polytheist with just another god and ignoring that god's monotheistic stance. Both make no sense to me, but I think the latter is better. Though people with a strong Christian background may see it the other way round.

[thalassa]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

. Imho you have to decline monotheism to be a pagan - as a Christian you have to accept it.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement as I feel that it is a vast oversimplification that ignores the realities of both sets of religious traditions.

Firstly because not all Pagans are polytheists (as a historical example, Akenhaten abandoned the polytheism of ancient Egypt in favor of a monotheistic or henotheistic worship of Aten). Also, many contemporary pagans are pantheists, including panentheists...and if you follow pantheism to its logical conclusion, its pretty much monotheistic (or henothestic)--if the Universe is "god" and "god" is the Universe, then (even if there are multiverses) we've only got one of each that is accessible to us. And, to some extent, because Paganism is more about practice--about praxis, than it is about belief...one can practice the worship of a single god while acknowleging the existence of others or practice the worship of many gods while ultimately believing that they are representative of one divine force without much contradition or mental gymnastics.

Secondly, Christianity is far more diverse than non-Christians often give it credit for. The traditional model of the Trinity is monothestic, yes...but it still parses out god into three different ways to access him, from a purely functional standpoint, its got a lot of similarities to soft polytheism (and that's even ignoring Mary and the saints). But there are less traditional models (and historically heresies) of God that range from three separate beings, to one or two beings and Jesus as a demigod figures. And none of that takes into account Christian views of God that are strongly panentheistic, which wouldn't preclude not believing in other gods (and to some extent even worshipping them, particularly if one has an unorthodox view of the role of the Bible in determining Christian belief).

We humans are perfectly capable of putting ideas into context to allow ourselves to hold competing and even seemingly paradoxical ideas at the same time.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

I grew up with an off-the boat Italian grandmother in the house. She was born in 1905. The "old ways" are very much alive in Italy, despite a heavy cloak of Catholicism, so I was exposed to all kinds of ritualistic stuff, the getting rid of the evil eye, the special candles for different occasions, the home altars (though they weren't called that) with special statues, seasonal things, etc.) And then we went to church every Sunday. So I totally get it and see no conflict.

[Gleb]

Re: Thoughts on Christo-paganism? Or Christ centered Paganism?

My opinion (Since you asked) is that a lot of Christo-Pagans are people who are having trouble letting go of old baggage, or are trying to get into something new when they are really still Christian. As somebody who once identified as this, I realise now it was only because I was worried about leaving Christianity, and the ramifications it might have with Jesus etc. Once I realized that doing this was insulting to all deities involved, I stopped, realised the source of this, and am comfortable now.

Basically this.