Panentheism

[cesara]

So, for a few years now I have described myself as a panentheist. I wanted to discuss how other people view panentheism and also how it differs from pantheism.

To start off the subject, I suppose we should start with the dictionary meanings of each word.

Panentheism
From http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Panentheism.aspx#2-1O95anentheism-full
"The belief that the Being of God includes and penetrates the whole universe, so that every part of it exists in Him, but (as against pantheism) that His Being is more than, and not exhausted by, the universe."

Pantheism
From http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/pantheism.aspx#5-1O95antheism-full
"The belief or theory that God and the universe are identical. The word appears to have been coined by J. Toland in 1705, but pantheistic systems go back to early times. Mysticism, with its passionate desire for union with the Divine, has often been charged with pantheism."

For a visual:


So, the difference is the transcendence of deity beyond existence. In other words, God is more than the universe -- God is what exists and what doesn't exist.

There is some good information about panentheism out there, but the best articles I have found so far are:

Panentheism - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Pantheism and Panentheism - The Univeresal Pantheist Society

I also really like what Father Jordan (Gnostic priest) has to say on the subject. From http://jordanstratford.blogspot.com/...-disagree.html:

Pantheism states that God equates with the experiential universe, which equates with God. This rock is God. That tree is God. And God is defined by the experiential universe.

Panentheism suggests that God is not so defined. If God is the egg, the experiential universe is the yolk of the egg. If God is the ocean, the universe is a fish in the ocean. Once you've got through the entire experiential universe, there's a whole lot of God left over. In this way, pantheism and panentheism are incompatible. Pantheism says God stops here, and panentheism says no, God doesn't stop here.

[...]

Pantheism says "God is everything and everything is God and that's that."

Panentheism says "God is everything and then some, and everything is God but there's God outside of everything as well."

As an aside, I quote a gnostic priest because gnosticism is generally panentheistic in cosmology.

So, I'm curious how folks here interpret panentheism, the differences between panentheism and pantheism and if anyone else here relates to a panentheistic worldview.

[Agamemnon]

Re: Panentheism

I am a Polytheist. I believe that the Gods are distinct entities seperate from the universe.

[Eglentyne]

Re: Panentheism

So... essentially God is more than the sum of its parts; its parts being every speck of the universe.

I sometimes wonder if God exists in the empty space between the atoms. Or if it's a Divine force that makes the matter of the universe vibrate.

I can't say I'm panentheistic. I have trouble with placing a concrete definition on how I view Deities. I can feel an essence at times, something holy but not very describable, and this usually occurs during the simplest times and places. Sometimes I feel it within. There are other times when I feel a Divine consciousness that is very much separated from physical experience.
I think these perceptions are, well, just that. However I need to perceive God is how he/she/it is going to present itself. Because it is so desperate for us to reply.
Just a thought.

Thank you for defining this term! Now if someone were to come to me and say, "I'm panentheistic," I won't have that blank look on my face, feebly trying to figure out what they're talking about. =D

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Panentheism

Great illustrations. It sort of seems to bridge the gap between pantheism and the Judeo-Christian doctrine that must hold the creator above the creation. I can see how it would help to reconcile the two. As for my own beliefs, I don't think they're too different from Agamemnon's, although I do believe in a common essence binding all deities and all humans. We were all produced by one common progenitor.

[PainAndLight]

Re: Panentheism

[quote author=cesara link=topic=1184.msg21913#msg21913 date=1292178337]So, I'm curious how folks here interpret panentheism, the differences between panentheism and pantheism and if anyone else here relates to a panentheistic worldview.[/quote]

I consider myself to be a panentheist, a hard polytheist and at the same time, I don't quite believe that every single solitary god ever named is an individual, distinct being (though, I think most of them are.)

To elaborate, I'm going to copy and paste something that I wrote in my dreamwidth journal here:
(It goes slightly beyond the scope of this thread, but I couldn't decide on a good point to cut it off...so I apologize for that. I put in bold the part that I think is most relevant here. The nested quote is just me quoting myself from yet elsewhere...lol...no special significance to this discussion. Again, apologies. I was just afraid that half of what I was sayig wouldn't make sense without the whole thing)

Let me start by saying, first of all, that I am a (fairly) hard polytheist. I won't go so far as to say that every single deity name that comes up in mythology is, in fact, a separate and individual deity. I think that some of them are alternate names for some gods, or that some of them are shades of another god.

For a bit more clarity on that last thought, I'll paste a comment that I made to A blog post on the subject

So...there are many separate, distinct gods- it's just that not every single name ever is a distinct god. Many, maybe even most are, some aren't.

I am also a panentheist. I believe that the divine is within everything. When I say that I believe the Divine is within everything, I mean that I believe that there is some "stuff" that I call "The Divine" of which there is a little bit in everything. I also believe that this is the basic building block of life for the gods, other non-corporeal beings, and probably for the souls/spirits of such things that have souls or spirits (I'm not an animist, I think I'm semi-animistic, but as far as what exact things I believe to have spirits versus what doesn't, I haven't exactly made up my mind. Some thing are obvious, others..not so much- but that's wandering a little off-topic here, so maybe some other time.) Please don't misunderstand me- I'm not an emanationist. I don't believe in "The One" or "The all" or whatever you want to call the idea of a single, supreme entity even beyond the gods from which they, uh, emanate. When I say that I believe The Divine is "the basic building block of life" for the gods, I mean it in the same sense that carbon is called "the basic building block of life" for physical life. I don't believe that the gods emanate from this one source any more than I believe that plants and animals emanate from a cloud of carbon.

I believe in their literal existence. The gods are not "energies" or "thoughtforms" or "archetypes"- this one drives me crazy. the gods are not archetypes. A specific deity may fulfill an archetype, but that's different. An archetype is not a specific example, but a general idea, a stock character. "Love Goddess" and Thunder God" are archetypes. Aphrodite and Zeus are examples which fulfill the archetype.

[Bjorn]

Re: Panentheism

I'll just be honest and say that until I clicked on this thread I had no idea what panentheism was! Thanks for posting, I love the braid food.

Allow me to try and flesh out some things here, of course with your help, Cesara since you're my resident panentheist geenyus.

For me, it seems like pantheism and panentheism as very similar in that they both view the universe as a physical manifestation of God. Would it be accurate to say that the major difference here is that panentheism considers the universe as merely one particular manifestation of God? Forgive me if that seems redundant but I just want to make sure I've got it all squared away, here.

Could you also be a pantheist who believes that there is more to God than I could possibly know about, or is that crossing a line and would be better described by panentheism?

[cesara]

Re: Panentheism

[quote author=Bjorn link=topic=1184.msg22818#msg22818 date=1292482615]
I'll just be honest and say that until I clicked on this thread I had no idea what panentheism was! Thanks for posting, I love the braid food.

Allow me to try and flesh out some things here, of course with your help, Cesara since you're my resident panentheist geenyus.

For me, it seems like pantheism and panentheism as very similar in that they both view the universe as a physical manifestation of God. Would it be accurate to say that the major difference here is that panentheism considers the universe as merely one particular manifestation of God? Forgive me if that seems redundant but I just want to make sure I've got it all squared away, here.

[/quote]

No geenyus here..lol....but thanks.

It's not just about manifestations of God....it's about what isn't as much as it's about what is. As Father Jordan said above....after we've gone through the entirety of the universe, there's a whole lot of God left over. God is more than just this universe. God is more than other universes, too. God is more than anything and everything that exists here, or anywhere else. God transcends all of matter and all of time -- and even more than that.

[quote author=Bjorn link=topic=1184.msg22818#msg22818 date=1292482615]
Could you also be a pantheist who believes that there is more to God than I could possibly know about, or is that crossing a line and would be better described by panentheism?
[/quote]

If you think that that more can be, or is outside of this universe, then that would be panentheism. If you believe that that more is still within the universe, that would be pantheism. I mean, there is a WHOLE lot of stuff in this universe alone that I believe we will never quite understand. But, seeing that stuff as being in the universe would be a pantheistic belief, whereas seeing that stuff as being here AND there AND nowhere would be panentheism.

[cesara]

Re: Panentheism

[quote author=PainAndLight link=topic=1184.msg22754#msg22754 date=1292468268]
I am also a panentheist. I believe that the divine is within everything. When I say that I believe the Divine is within everything, I mean that I believe that there is some "stuff" that I call "The Divine" of which there is a little bit in everything. I also believe that this is the basic building block of life for the gods, other non-corporeal beings, and probably for the souls/spirits of such things that have souls or spirits (I'm not an animist, I think I'm semi-animistic, but as far as what exact things I believe to have spirits versus what doesn't, I haven't exactly made up my mind. Some thing are obvious, others..not so much- but that's wandering a little off-topic here, so maybe some other time.) Please don't misunderstand me- I'm not an emanationist. I don't believe in "The One" or "The all" or whatever you want to call the idea of a single, supreme entity even beyond the gods from which they, uh, emanate. When I say that I believe The Divine is "the basic building block of life" for the gods, I mean it in the same sense that carbon is called "the basic building block of life" for physical life. I don't believe that the gods emanate from this one source any more than I believe that plants and animals emanate from a cloud of carbon.[/quote]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, PainandLight!

Hmmm, I'm not sure that what you describe above would fall under panentheism. If I am understanding what you are saying, you believe that the 'basic building block of life' is shared with both us, the gods, spirits and everything that exists, that this 'stuff' is "Divine" but part of what humanity and the Gods are made up of?

[Bjorn]

Re: Panentheism

:O Then you've just helped me to more accurately define myself! This is a great thread. I want more discussion!

So, according to panentheism, could it also be that God and the universe are in fact the same, there are just many other things that God is the same as, and that is what makes it panentheism?

[Dumuzi]

Re: Panentheism

Just wanted to say that the picture you posted is awesome! It really explains everything.

Thanks

[Oshii]

Re: Panentheism

Neat topic! Sorry if this may not be on topic but would it be possible to assume multiple universes may exist within the same god then, thus explaining some of that extra space in the illustration in the first post.

I can't even begin to describe what's going on in my brain right now. Must mull it over some more.

[winterviolet]

Re: Panentheism

I just wanted to say that I find this topic really fascinating and I also found the visual VERY helpful. I consider myself to be pantheist because I conceptualize the universe as being all there is, and it is one and the same with the divine. I suppose the divine force that caused everything in the universe to exist and to be here could do whatever the heck it wants, even beyond the universe, but I can't possibly conceive of what could be beyond the universe. I'm the type of person who feels our temporal nature strongly and I always seek things in the metaphysical that are grounded in reality and fact. I quantify "god" in scientific terms; physics, the "big bang", light, heat and the cold vacuum of space. I trust in that entity as neutral and non-sentient. What could possibly be more than our universe? We know so little about where we happen to exist as it is.

I won't say there isn't the possibility of more, but the way I personally grasp the universe is distinctly pantheist.

[Lunacie]

Re: Panentheism

[quote author=Agamemnon link=topic=1184.msg22720#msg22720 date=1292460513]
I am a Polytheist. I believe that the Gods are distinct entities seperate from the universe.
[/quote]

I'm also a Polytheist.

I believe the Gods are distinct entities, just as I am,
and that they are part of the universe, just as I am,
and that the universe is part of us.

I believe nothing dies, everything reincarnates in some way.

I believe the universe is much bigger, and much smaller,
than we can fathom.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Panentheism

I have a question cesara!

Do panentheists usually believe that the divine is conscious?

What I specifically mean by that, do you believe that the divine is good for example? Or neither good nor bad?
Can it judge people? Punish criminals? Does the divine have a will of its own? Can it show mercy and so on to whom it wills?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Panentheism

A great thread -

I just wanted to add this:

If you are interested in Pantheism and would like to read a philosophic discussion on the metaphysics of the subject by a major thinker, William James chose Pantheism as the topic when he was invited to give the Hibbert Lectures in 1909.

The title of the printed work is A Pluralistic Universe, and it can be downloaded from Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11984 for free.

It's well worth reading.