Attraction or fixation?

[NeoPlatonic]

I have been reading a few threads in this same subforum and it appears that a lot of people feel some form of kinship or attraction towards certain gods or god. Some people seem to have received more or less clear signs, so no doubts there. This is is directed at the people who could easily doubt the whole situation (such as myself)

My question is: How do you differentiate between "true attraction" and "mere fixation"? To better explain the question, consider this: How do you know that it is the god calling you and not yourself merely wanting to get closer to it, for whatever reason you may have?

[Chessa]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

I feel like this is the same thing as when dating- some people are just so oblivious to the signals others give. For me, it's really weird and hard to describe, but it's where I feel it. Fixation i feel in the top of my head, with the rest of my fascinations and obsessions (things like Fey, Doctor Who, coffee...), and actual attachment sort of comes from around my chest or my gut, kind of like when I'm playing a song on an instrument and I'm really moved by it. Sort of this heavy feeling. I don't have any better words, sorry

[thalassa]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

I don't think that you ever can know. Sure, you can (successfully) convince yourself (for some people it takes far less work than others; which isn't good or bad, it just is) that something is "real" or not...but you never really know. You can't collect evidence of gods, you can't replicate experiments (except to yourself, which are notoriously loaded with bias and outright self-deception), etc. You only ever *have* your opinion on the matter, however you decide to interpret whatever nuance you (subjectively and abstractly) identify in your different experiences.

So, does it matter? Personally I find the phrasing you used to be quite interesting--"true attraction" and "mere fixation". I don't think there is such a thing; sure we might believe that such a thing exists, but at the end of the day, the results are remarkably the same. I have, in prior times of my 20 years as a Pagan, been a duotheist/soft polytheist, a (fairly literal) hard polytheist, and now an agnostic panthiestic humanist polytheist---and there is no real difference in my religious experience, except in how I think about it afterwards.

It all comes down to validity of experience. An experience is valid because it has meaning. It really doesn't matter if that meaning is based on an experience that is all in your head or beamed into your head by some mistykal woowoo experience (or whether you think its one when its really the other)...what matters is whether or not you use that experience to grow as a human being.

[NeoPlatonic]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

Thank you for your replies.

Chessa, you explained it to the best of your ability and your thoughts are appreciated.

thalassa, I think the problem I have always had is that in all pagan philosophies including Platonism and it's derivatives there is "you can meet the gods" part. This always frustrated me: How was I to actually do this last part? The god I grew up with was everywhere, but pagan gods are not omnipresent*.

My only recourse were dreams, but these were deceptive. On one hand all actually deities appearing in my dreams never striked me as "calling out" to me (and I have had quite a bit of deities in my dreams, including ones that do not actually exist). I always looked at dreams from a more or less pshychological perspective due to this.

The only chance in which a dream affected me I came to be obsessed over a particular mythological being which technically was not even a god. This led me to go beyond my atheism and to reconsider my worldview, over time reaching a point where I was de facto a Neo-Platonist (which is also why the philosophy resonated with me when I read about it). That said: Was I merely obsessing over a mythological figure? Was I wrongly attributing it the status of god? Was I simply trying to find meaning were there was none?

Ultimately I decided that I was actually building a relationship with a god, but I am one of those people who likes being right all the time (I know, I know.. It is actually impossible. But I have to try.) so the lack of physical proof was quite annoying. It is only recently that I consider that maybe, as you say, it is impossible to "know" in the traditional way and it all depends on us and how we interpret different events, including dreams.

*Barring exceptions, of course. Some pantheists and more orthodox henotheists would disagree for example.

[Demifate]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

I find myself questioning the concept of gods and goddesses frequently, despite actually feeling some affinity for certain ones. I find I can convince myself, solidly, that it's all in my head. (It's really rather frustrating to be such a skeptic of things that I have not truly experienced myself.)

The only plus side is, when the feeling of being close to one strikes, I end up doing a ton of research on the issue. And researching religion and culture is a passion of mine, and makes me happy. I've looked into so many of them now out of curiosity and study.

So at the end of the process, I still feel satisfied. Even if no actual answers have been found.

And yes, I'm dealing with this right now, with the Norse pantheon. Although none have been quite so...persistently nagging at my brain as this particular pantheon. It makes me wonder if there may be more to it, since it's not going away. I'm even having dreams and freak coincidences...

You're not alone in the struggle!

[NeoPlatonic]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

Thank you for replying, Demifate.

Yes, that is almost exactly what happens to me. I am one day feeling like I have had a religious experience, then some time later I end up feeling like a complete pessimist about everything.

On the plus side, thinking about it back in those days did help me to flesh out my worldview and philosophy. There is always contemplation for me.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

How can you meet god until you know what god is?

How can you know what god is until you meet it?

Meeting and knowing are the same thing. When A = A, it is irrational to put A before A, but everybody tries it anyway.

The solution is what Thalassa pointed out. Meaning is what matters, not whether it comes from the inside side or the outside side - because they are two different perspectives of the same thing creating the illusion of being two separate things.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

.. How do you know that it is the god calling you and not yourself merely wanting to get closer to it, for whatever reason you may have?

I think all of us experience that sense of self doubt when dealing with an entity that can never be proven to exist. We accept existence based upon a willingness to believe that they can and do exist. Yet I think your question of Attraction or fixation arises from seeking confirmation to prove that existence. In part because I believe we can only believe to a certain depth and then it gets shaky and we require some sort of support.

For those who are attracted to a divine entity I truly think many times it's an attraction based upon an assumption. That assumption being the implied belief or suggestion that all will have some divine connection. Even the notion of seeking one out by researching the lore and such to find which one resonates with you or gains an attraction for you. It's become some implied that it must be there that the idea that it might not be there seem's inconsiderable. After all the books, the forums, other pagans all say go seeking and see which ones attract your attention and / or focus / interest. If they do then that is the one for you.

I do tend to think the attraction and implied presumption that it will be there for many is the need or desire to want that divine being to get closer to. A desire I see being so strongly endorsed and pushed in modern paganism that any internal communication just has to be because an actual divine being is calling you. Otherwise, the person is outside the normal limits of the pagan fold and has to seek that much harder to find that entity.

Fixation I think comes from knowing that some entity we presume to be divine has spoken to us and we have to confirm and support that belief. I truly think that is where UPG, SPG and CPG comes into play for the typical practitioner. We have the belief and the commitment to accept yet there is always a thread of doubt about it. I think within the confines of the modern world proof is a base corner stone needed to support it all. So we research, confirm or deny presumptions, try to correlate it with experiences others have had, especially with the same divine beings. When similar or close we collectively give a sigh of relief for it sort of confirms our beliefs and conclusions. If we can find some reference, however how iffy, in the lore and such then that also adds confirmation and support to our beliefs. Yet the deeper down the hole our beliefs and connections carry us the more support and confirmation we need to support it I think.

Yet that is what destroys us in my opinion. If we judge the results against a critical analysis and questioning then we turn to more seeking and evidence. Yet it we blindly accept and assume that equally destroys us for we refuse to consider it could be false. So we get fixated on believing it is the truth and align the results to support our conclusions regardless of them actually doing so. In that regard reminds me of spell workings, any thing that could possibly be perceived as a sign of success automatically becomes said support. One is convinced that it has to be a result of their action regardless of any contradicting evidence. That which supports you conclusion and beliefs is accepted, that which doesn't is rejected and ignored.

If I follow my own beliefs and opinions then I have to believe we never fully know for certain. There is always a question there of the correctness of our conclusions and beliefs. My own ideals based upon interactions with those I am bound to is that if we believe blindly then were of little to no use. No one wants a follower who is incapable of any action without being told what, how and when to do something. They want a follower who will try to better themselves and increase their worth, knowledge and influence. Sometimes even testing with the dumbest or most ridicules of requests to see if you truly think about things and consider it vice simply acting.

Sorry been a long night and this probably makes no sense but i'll leave it none the less for what it might suggest or imply.

[NeoPlatonic]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

Thank you both for your replies.

B. de Corbin, I suppose that part of what makes us human. It is not always rational to seek out the "good" option, but it is what we consider the best one sometimes. Meaning, indeed.

monsno_leedra, that post of yours was an interesting read. The problem I have always had was not so much believing blindly but it's opposite, not believing at all. Even the slightest bit of doubt was enough to shatter my belief and throw me back to the beggining, as it were. It is ironic that you cannot find proof for the non-existence of something yet that is what I have always struggled against: Seeing proof of the absence of gods where there was in fact no such thing.

I can also identify with the whole "outside of the pagan fold" part. Until I began to delve deeper into pagan philosophies, I was more or less stuck with the whole "you must meditate / project astrally / meet with gods in such states" etc. which was a constant source of frustrating since meditation does not work for me. I am naturally laid-back, so sitting down and trying to relax actually makes my mind wander and causes me a lot of frustration. The closest situation I can compare the experience with is that of trying to watch a movie at a cinema and the rest of the public being silent until the lights are out, at which point everyone grabs their cellphones, eats loudly, or just acts very obnoxiously.

Do not worry about not making sense, you definitely do. You are both against believing blindly and trying to take a completely scientific approach to the matter, which is perfectly fine considering that it is easy to go to extremes.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

...which was a constant source of frustrating since meditation does not work for me. I am naturally laid-back, so sitting down and trying to relax actually makes my mind wander and causes me a lot of frustration...

I hear this a lot. It may be that you misunderstand what "meditation" is, and/or how it works, and/or be unaware of the variety of meditation techniques available. Tell me what your goal in meditation is, and I may be able to help.

You are both against believing blindly and trying to take a completely scientific approach to the matter, which is perfectly fine considering that it is easy to go to extremes.

For me... sort of. My approach is experimental, but Alchemical (and, currently, heavily influenced by Buddhist logic), rather than "scientific."

My approach tells me that, if one wants answers to the type of question you are asking, one must first accept that one knows nothing, that what one thinks one knows is as likely to be wrong as it is right, that whatever one may have read/been told/thought is, at best, confused or simplified to the point of being meaningless or incomprehensible due to lack of context, if not plain, flat-out wrong, and that no bit of data or information or answer has meaning outside of the context provided by experience. Negredo before albedo - purification before generation. All colors must return to black before proceeding.

Then, design your experiments to find out...

[NeoPlatonic]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

I hear this a lot. It may be that you misunderstand what "meditation" is, and/or how it works, and/or be unaware of the variety of meditation techniques available. Tell me what your goal in meditation is, and I may be able to help.

I am thankful for the offer but I can say safely that I have tried everything I could try. Sitting, laying down, incenses, audio recordings, at night, at dawn, at random moments during the day... Even during a bath. As for purpose, it has ranged from trying to achieve a "higher state of consciousness" (this is so described by those who utilized such methods and worked for them) from simply trying to divert away negative thoughts and everything in-between, such as escapism. The first goal was always unattainable for me. I would have loved to get into a trance and meet a god/s that way, but I simply was never able to. The second I could reach, albeit it was in a much less "amazing" way as described by practitioners - I am readily capable of distracting myself via other means more easily.

My lucid dreams were always brief, so the idea of a similar state of mind with a longer duration had a lot of appeal - I know to some extent how amazing an experience such as that can be. Yet all my attempts have always been failures, so ultimately I gave up and settled with thoughtful contemplation instead (as I have said before, this is how over time I began to shift my worldview).

For me... sort of. My approach is experimental, but Alchemical (and, currently, heavily influenced by Buddhist logic), rather than "scientific."

My approach tells me that, if one wants answers to the type of question you are asking, one must first accept that one knows nothing, that what one thinks one knows is as likely to be wrong as it is right, that whatever one may have read/been told/thought is, at best, confused or simplified to the point of being meaningless or incomprehensible due to lack of context, if not plain, flat-out wrong, and that no bit of data or information or answer has meaning outside of the context provided by experience. Negredo before albedo - purification before generation. All colors must return to black before proceeding.

Then, design your experiments to find out...

I apologize about that, but I was referring to monsno_leedra's dual points rather than "both of you". I am not a native English speaker which may have helped cause confusion.

That aside, my approach has always been as follows: I would read about something then give it a lot of thought afterwards. It is not experience, of course, but since experience has always evaded me then I have had to do with speculation.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

On meditation, you've described "outer" things that you have tried. Meditation is an "inner" thing. To get it to work, one goes about changing the way one uses one's mind.

[thalassa]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

I am thankful for the offer but I can say safely that I have tried everything I could try. Sitting, laying down, incenses, audio recordings, at night, at dawn, at random moments during the day... Even during a bath. As for purpose, it has ranged from trying to achieve a "higher state of consciousness" (this is so described by those who utilized such methods and worked for them) from simply trying to divert away negative thoughts and everything in-between, such as escapism. The first goal was always unattainable for me. I would have loved to get into a trance and meet a god/s that way, but I simply was never able to. The second I could reach, albeit it was in a much less "amazing" way as described by practitioners - I am readily capable of distracting myself via other means more easily.

THIS:

On meditation, you've described "outer" things that you have tried. Meditation is an "inner" thing. To get it to work, one goes about changing the way one uses one's mind.

The thread topic itself is mostly unrelated, but I wrote quite a bit about meditation (specifically as it relates to ADHD, but the advice stands for anyone) over here, which I think is applicable for you as well.

And I'll add this to it--before you ever start anything of finding a "higher state of consciousness", you have to do the groundwork. Most people need to essentially rewire their brain and retrain how they think BEFORE they are actually able to achieve anything...and if they say they don't, they are either lying, exaggerating, or just lucky--part of the 1% that just *gets* it. It takes zen masters YEARS to become zen masters, YEARS for an "apprentice" to actually become a shaman in most traditional cultures, etc. Expect that it will take at least a year or two of consistent practice for most people to achieve a truly mindbending, soul-altering, mytstical experience of *whatever* it is you are hoping to achieve. Sure, some people get lucky and manage it right out of the gate (this does not make them more spiritual or more spiritually skilled...and actually, I'd argue that they really have *less* skill for not needing to do the work). And some people never do.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

.. And I'll add this to it--before you ever start anything of finding a "higher state of consciousness", you have to do the groundwork. Most people need to essentially rewire their brain and retrain how they think BEFORE they are actually able to achieve anything...and if they say they don't, they are either lying, exaggerating, or just lucky--part of the 1% that just *gets* it. It takes zen masters YEARS to become zen masters, YEARS for an "apprentice" to actually become a shaman in most traditional cultures, etc. Expect that it will take at least a year or two of consistent practice for most people to achieve a truly mindbending, soul-altering, mytstical experience of *whatever* it is you are hoping to achieve. Sure, some people get lucky and manage it right out of the gate (this does not make them more spiritual or more spiritually skilled...and actually, I'd argue that they really have *less* skill for not needing to do the work). And some people never do.

Agree with every word of it. Just my crazy family but they always said the only fast tract is to die and come back which is not something i'd advise. Otherwise it's a life long journey and a constant evolution and no one gets it handed to them or discovers it in a single year or two but after decades of trial and error and many head slaps.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Attraction or fixation?

Agree with every word of it. Just my crazy family but they always said the only fast tract is to die and come back which is not something i'd advise. Otherwise it's a life long journey and a constant evolution and no one gets it handed to them or discovers it in a single year or two but after decades of trial and error and many head slaps.

LOL - the other option is blotter or 'shrooms, but the "enlightenment" will be 98% shit. Just look at Tim (trips around the bay, gets you back the next day) Leary, or Terrence (inter dimensional entities) McKenna...