The Great REDE Debate.

[ChainLightning]

For Lunacie:

Since we had to close the thread about an apparent contradiction existing, if pagans were to try to become militant, I feel it's appropriate for the lecture on misinformation, about this controversial Rede, to take place here. Quite obviously, as anyone that's READ the thread knows, Lunacie seems to think we all know nothing about the Rede. That it is either synonymous with militancy or with laws. Just as obviously, nobody here thinks that the Wiccan Rede is a militant slogan, nor is it the Golden Law of the land, or some such.


However. We need, by all appearances, to be told repeatedly, why we are wrong. Lunacie? Here's your chance.

Let the lecture begin.

[magusphredde]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

First I would like to post what I believe to be an early (and long) version of the Rede ...


Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust.
Live you must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give.
For tread the Circle thrice about to keep unwelcome spirits out.
To bind the spell well every time, let the spell be said in rhyme.
Light of eye and soft of touch, speak you little, listen much.
Honor the Old Ones in deed and name, let love and light be our guides again.
Deosil go by the waxing moon, chanting out the joyful tune.
Widdershins go when the moon doth wane, and the werewolf howls by the dread wolfsbane.
When the Lady's moon is new, kiss the hand to Her times two.
When the moon rides at Her peak then your heart's desire seek.
Heed the North winds mighty gale, lock the door and trim the sail.
When the Wind blows from the East, expect the new and set the feast.
When the wind comes from the South, love will kiss you on the mouth.
When the wind whispers from the West, all hearts will find peace and rest.
Nine woods in the Cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow.
Birch wood in the fire goes to represent what the Lady knows.
Oak in the forest, towers with might in the fire it brings the God's insight.
Rowan is a tree of power causing life and magick to flower.
Willows at the waterside stand ready to help us to the Summerland.
Hawthorn is burned to purify and to draw faerie to your eye.
Hazel-the tree of wisdom and learning- adds its strength to the bright fire burning.
White are the flowers of Apple tree that brings us fruits of fertility.
Grapes grow upon the vine giving us both joy and wine.
Fir does mark the evergreen to represent immortality seen.
But - Elder is the Lady's tree burn it not or cursed you'll be.
Four times the Major Sabbats mark in the light and in the dark.
As the old year starts to wane the new begins, it's now Samhain.
When the time for Imbolg shows watch for flowers through the snows.
When the wheel begins to turn soon the Beltane fires will burn.
As the wheel turns to Lammas night power is brought to magick rite.
Four times the Minor Sabbats fall use the Sun to mark them all.
When the wheel has turned to Yule light the log the Horned One rules.
In the spring, when night equals day time for Ostara to come our way.
When the Sun has reached it's height time for Oak and Holly to fight.
Harvesting comes to one and all when the Autumn Equinox does fall.
Heed the flower, bush, and tree By the Lady blessed you'll be.
Where the rippling waters go cast a stone, the truth you'll know.
When you have and hold a need, harken not to others greed.
With a fool no season spend Lest you be counted as his friend.
Merry Meet and Merry Part bright the cheeks and warm the heart.
Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.
When misfortune is enow wear the star upon your brow.
True in love you must ever be unless your love is false to thee.
Eight words the Rede fulfil "An' ye harm none, do what ye wilt".

[ChainLightning]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

Thank you Magus! And yup. That's the selfsame Rede that I'm familiar with.

Somehow, though, it's been insinuated that many of us think the thing only consists of two words. No, correction: not insinuated - stated. It's been said.We don't kno nuthin frum nuthin, us porr ignerrunt bumpkins - "harm none" is all the rede really is. Don't ever hurt nuthin, now, ever ever.


*facepalm x100

And yes. That was extreme sarcasm, just in case someone actually thinks my IQ is a single digit.

[magusphredde]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

We could remind them of the Witches Council of 1970-freaking-3 ... Oh yeah ... I already did ... But that had mainly to do with Wicca ...

[Clive]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

It was my understanding that "The Wiccan Rede" was "An' it harm none, do what ye will," whereas the long poem that goes along with it was "The Wiccan Credo."

[Ophidia]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

I've never heard nor seen the longer version. Thank you, Magus.

From my understanding, all these years, the Rede was from a longer bit by Aleister Crowley in Al Liber Legis (and there are other permutations of that quote, too):



The bit about 'An it harm none' was added by Gardner or Sanders to pretty it up and make it acceptable for mass consumption since Crowley wasn't exactly a 'harm none' kinda guy, as well as having his own notions of what 'love' entailed. We could easily get into a whole separate debate about what, exactly, was Crowley talking about when he wrote 'do what thou wilt' in the first place, but that path leads to further acrimony & thread-locking

Even when I was a Wiccan, I had a hard time accepting the Rede as gospel of any kind. To live means to harm things. We can't help it, and trying to live by something that says 'only do what you want/need if it doesn't harm anything else' instills a huge dose of toxic guilt into a religion that should be free from that whole concept.

[Amber]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

I look at it more as a guideline...kind of like the golden rule. As perz said...there is no way we can not harm anything at all because we have to eat, and to be able to eat, something has to die. Its just the nature of life.

I see the "harm none" as more try not to intentionally cause harm to another person/animal what not. As in Abuse (in all forms), Neglect and the likes.

The key word is "try". Because lets face it, we're humans and its going to happen. Intentionally or intentionally

[Corvus]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

I think the rede is instructions on how to craft spells and rituals and honering deities, what you should do but not a must do type thing. As for the last line "eight words the rede fufill an it harm none do as ye will" in my opinion its the rede fufill part that leads people to think this is the only part I need to pay attention to. Anyway the an it harm none means to me to judge every action you do morally and do it while causeing the least amount of damage possible. That's just my opinion though.

[Eglentyne]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

Okay, my two cents.

The Rede was never meant to be taken as gospel anyways. Gardner described it as having the freedom to follow your bliss, to pursue one's spirituality however one needs to, because Witches do not follow the authority of a church or governing religious body. Essentially, the Witch guides her own path. But, as soon as one's decisions begin to infringe on someone else's well-being or livelihood, then one has to question the ethics of one's actions.

Note, I say "question the ethics," and this does not necessarily mean "stop the destructive behavior." We weigh our decisions every day to determine what does the least harm, and there are times when we choose the path that causes quite a bit of harm but ultimately leads to the desired result. Witches take the responsibility upon themselves to face the consequences of their actions. If they do something harmful and destructive, it's understood that they will receive the backlash from it. When weighing the risks, sometimes taking the heat for a harmful action is worth it.

But to say, "you have to live your life without harming anyone" is just asinine. I know people in my community who take this stance and they live like doormats, allowing people to just walk over them and take advantage of their sweetness. How personally damaging is that? How much does that impede on that individual's ability to grow and spiritually evolve? Just one example, mind you.

I'm seeing a lot of dissension over this topic, and it seems like that this thread was borne out of that. This Rede debate will probably never cease. Regardless, I see a lot of people here who take a middle ground and see it as a reminder to simply take responsibility and own one's actions.

[Oshii]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

I have to quote one of my favorite moves here: "They're more like guidelines anyway." -PotC

I personally believe that it shouldn't be taken literal. Much like the bible has parts that shouldn't be taken literal. If I want to survive, I must do harm. The meat that I eat came from an animal that had to die. The vegetables and fruit that I eat had to be plucked from a plant (or the earth). The whole "Harm None" - while not always put down in literal terms - gets used by many pagan paths. I think it should be interpreted as "If you can avoid hurting anyone or anything, use that option first."

I just find it funny that people (in general) seem to always get hung up on that part; that little sentence at the bottom of a huge wall of text.

[Lunacie]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

[quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=1223.msg23045#msg23045 date=1292563199]
Thank you Magus! And yup. That's the selfsame Rede that I'm familiar with.

Somehow, though, it's been insinuated that many of us think the thing only consists of two words. No, correction: not insinuated - stated. It's been said.We don't kno nuthin frum nuthin, us porr ignerrunt bumpkins - "harm none" is all the rede really is. Don't ever hurt nuthin, now, ever ever.


*facepalm x100

And yes. That was extreme sarcasm, just in case someone actually thinks my IQ is a single digit.
[/quote]

The poem Magus posted is NOT what most traditional Wiccans call the Wiccan Rede. It's called the Witches Crede or the Rede of the Wiccae depending on your source, and it was published in 1978, a good 14 years after the Wiccan Rede was first delivered in a speech by Doreen Valiente and subsequently published. The Wiccan Rede is 8 words long and reducing it to just two words "harm none" changes the meaning entirely.

There has been no insinuation on my part. I responded only to those who actually posted a belief that The Rede is only two words and find it very confusing to use that for advice. Apparently, trying to clear up that confusion has annoyed you, though I have no idea why that would be.

John J. Coughlin has posted a terrific resource on the Wiccan Rede here: http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede.shtml

[Lunacie]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

[quote author=perzephone link=topic=1223.msg23052#msg23052 date=1292565515]
I've never heard nor seen the longer version. Thank you, Magus.

From my understanding, all these years, the Rede was from a longer bit by Aleister Crowley in Al Liber Legis (and there are other permutations of that quote, too):



The bit about 'An it harm none' was added by Gardner or Sanders to pretty it up and make it acceptable for mass consumption since Crowley wasn't exactly a 'harm none' kinda guy, as well as having his own notions of what 'love' entailed. We could easily get into a whole separate debate about what, exactly, was Crowley talking about when he wrote 'do what thou wilt' in the first place, but that path leads to further acrimony & thread-locking

Even when I was a Wiccan, I had a hard time accepting the Rede as gospel of any kind. To live means to harm things. We can't help it, and trying to live by something that says 'only do what you want/need if it doesn't harm anything else' instills a huge dose of toxic guilt into a religion that should be free from that whole concept.
[/quote]

Yes, Gardner borrowed quite a few things from Crowley, including the bit you've shared. He was also influenced by a book called "The Adventures of King Pasoule" where it was written "[Witches] are inclined to the morality of the legendary Good King Pausol, "Do what you like so long as you harm no one".

The Rede does not command us to "harm none". It tells us that any action that will harm none is acceptable. The Lycian Tradition tries to clear this up with an extended version of the Rede:
An it harm none, do as you will. An it cause harm, do as you must.

The point is that Witches should not need gospel rules to tell them how to be responsible, ethical people. The real meaning of the Rede does not include any toxic guilt at all.

[Lunacie]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

[quote author=Corvus link=topic=1223.msg23209#msg23209 date=1292638049]
I think the rede is instructions on how to craft spells and rituals and honering deities, what you should do but not a must do type thing. As for the last line "eight words the rede fufill an it harm none do as ye will" in my opinion its the rede fufill part that leads people to think this is the only part I need to pay attention to. Anyway the an it harm none means to me to judge every action you do morally and do it while causeing the least amount of damage possible. That's just my opinion though.
[/quote]

Yes! That's exactly what I was taught before I was initiated into Wicca. The primary advice was about using magic and being very cautious not to draw unwanted attention to magical effects at a time when Witchcraft was outlawed, and anyone associated with a Witch could find themselves facing trial and prison. It turned out to be good advice (when not misquoted) for living a responsible, ethical life.

(this is not the time to expand the debate to definitions of 'moral' vs 'ethical&#039

[Lunacie]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

[quote author=Eglentyne link=topic=1223.msg23280#msg23280 date=1292682927]
Okay, my two cents.

The Rede was never meant to be taken as gospel anyways. Gardner described it as having the freedom to follow your bliss, to pursue one's spirituality however one needs to, because Witches do not follow the authority of a church or governing religious body. Essentially, the Witch guides her own path. But, as soon as one's decisions begin to infringe on someone else's well-being or livelihood, then one has to question the ethics of one's actions.

Note, I say "question the ethics," and this does not necessarily mean "stop the destructive behavior." We weigh our decisions every day to determine what does the least harm, and there are times when we choose the path that causes quite a bit of harm but ultimately leads to the desired result. Witches take the responsibility upon themselves to face the consequences of their actions. If they do something harmful and destructive, it's understood that they will receive the backlash from it. When weighing the risks, sometimes taking the heat for a harmful action is worth it.

But to say, "you have to live your life without harming anyone" is just asinine. I know people in my community who take this stance and they live like doormats, allowing people to just walk over them and take advantage of their sweetness. How personally damaging is that? How much does that impede on that individual's ability to grow and spiritually evolve? Just one example, mind you.

I'm seeing a lot of dissension over this topic, and it seems like that this thread was borne out of that. This Rede debate will probably never cease. Regardless, I see a lot of people here who take a middle ground and see it as a reminder to simply take responsibility and own one's actions.
[/quote]

Very well said. Thanks for adding your two cents + inflation.

[Lunacie]

Re: The Great REDE Debate.

[quote author=Oshii link=topic=1223.msg23408#msg23408 date=1292725878]
I have to quote one of my favorite moves here: "They're more like guidelines anyway." -PotC

I personally believe that it shouldn't be taken literal. Much like the bible has parts that shouldn't be taken literal. If I want to survive, I must do harm. The meat that I eat came from an animal that had to die. The vegetables and fruit that I eat had to be plucked from a plant (or the earth). The whole "Harm None" - while not always put down in literal terms - gets used by many pagan paths. I think it should be interpreted as "If you can avoid hurting anyone or anything, use that option first."

I just find it funny that people (in general) seem to always get hung up on that part; that little sentence at the bottom of a huge wall of text.
[/quote]

"If you can avoid hurting anyone or anything, use that option first."
That's an awesome way of updating the Rede to simple modern language.

As I pointed out earlier, the long text poem came later. The eight-word Rede was meant to be simple, though cloaked in mystery. After all, Wicca is a mystery religion. It was never meant to be learned by reading a couple of books and doing a self-dedication. Done properly, that can be a valid pathway to Wicca, but very few do it properly.