Clean Slate?

[Crimson Horizons]

I have seen several posts recently about a "clean slate" as regards to the new forum. I must say that I simply disagree with this and would like to know why this is a current line of thinking.

When I have seen this idea bandied about, it is exclusively linked to possible past misdeeds/wrongs/slights/general bad etiquette. But, to be a true clean slate, wouldn't this also hold true to all of someone's past good deeds?

Now, I know that I have a different worldview than most people on this board but rarely have I felt this out of place here before. To me, one's deeds define how I view that person, be they good or ill. This idea of wiping away the past simply because of a change of location wounds me in a way that I have a hard time putting into words.

Especially in an electronic format, all we have to go on, what we must judge a person by, are their words. Because we no longer have proof that they were written, must we forget them? Must I disregard the injuries and indignities put upon me by previous users? If that is the case, must I also forget the joys had and friends found on the previous incarnation of Pagan Forums? Do the people I have helped, by both word and deed, suddenly need me to perform those same deeds again to prove my loyalties?

Simply because we have changed locations doesn't mean that we have suddenly changed as people. I honestly want to know why my fellow users feel that this is an acceptable ideology.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Clean Slate?

Personally, I would say that a 'clean slate' is just a practicality since earlier posts have disappeared into the great blue yonder. The difficulties are compounded when users change names and I have to admit that I just can't keep up with some of these changes, and therefore adopt the 'clean slate' approach if only for the sake of my sanity.

However, I do sympathise with you here, CH, and agree that it's not reasonable to expect everyone to just forgive and forget. Sometimes you can't. And as you say, this applies to good memories as well as bad. My own advise would be to adopt whatever approach feels best to you. If there are some things you cannot forget then remember them by all means. Obviously it's going to be frustrating because you can no longer prove what was said or done, but that doesn't mean you can't be wary in your future dealings with such people.

Of course another way of looking at it is that sometimes people offend through ignorance and poor judgement rather than deliberate intent. Maybe they have grown out of this now. In which case, perhaps they deserve the sort of second chance that a 'clean slate' could bring.

You raise the interesting and very valid point that a clean slate could also apply to good deeds - anyone who demands a good deed has to be repeated now that the slate is blank is a total wally and doesn't deserve your friendship. Indeed I would go further and say that they probably had no idea what true friendship was in the first place.

IMO the whole idea of forgiving and forgetting has to be an individual choice and not something that other people adopt on your (or my ) behalf.

[Maythe]

Re: Clean Slate?

I suspect it's because the internet is often such an immediate medium, like speech, but also a medium that can be irritatingly indelible. Most of us have said or done things which were fleeting and meaningless and mostly harmless, but excruciatingly embarrassing. Imagine all your teenage nonsenses kept for you to cringe at later - I suspect it's these words that some of our members are particularly pleased to see disappear.

People will always remember the big things, good or bad, and I certainly don't feel the past is wiped away. I feel the same way about other users as I always did (plus anything added since the restart of course!). Are you taking the metaphor a bit too literally?

[MaskedOne]

Re: Clean Slate?

I think that the site reboot represented an opportunity to bury past feuds so it's not surprising that people would push to do so. Whether that's realistic is a separate issue. Personally, I bury feuds in my own time if at all. The only thing a site reboot means is that the amount of history that I can backtrack on a member is limited.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Clean Slate?

As one of those that has most likely used the phrase, because I often do, around here, I can clarify. I can tell you exactly what I mean, in regards to wiping the slate clean. I'll even use an example, but change the name of the tabula rasa.

I don't ever expect people to do as told, suggested or advised. I don't expect people to follow my lead, particularly if it's in the direction of a good deed. What I do expect is people to be who they are. Don't pretend. Don't try and butter me up, or make believe you like me. Simply put, be who you are and don't apologize for it. Be honest with yourself, at the very, very least. That's what I expect. Do I always get what I expect? Well, I'm a cynic. I almost never get what I expect. In this light, expect is synonymous with demand. What I expect? As in what do I think is going to come out of it? (As opposed to what I WANT to come out of it.) People are slime. They won't be decent to one another and most definitely will not be decent toward me. Expectations are a double edged sword. That I very often get cut by.

Forgiving and forgetting. On a personal basis? This usually is akin to second, third, fourth (etc) chances. Repeated and almost stubborn 'benefit of the doubt'. Which is a crock of horse dung. I do not forgive and forget. One would either make amends or be left, swept aside. I will not open my wallet to a thief, hand gasoline to an arsonist or trust a man-eating shark to change it's ways JUST because I gave it a fresh start - a blank slate. That is dangerously and completely stupid, beyond description.

As a forum administrator, a clean slate is more... I don't have the evidence to support a claim, one way or another, about what happened before The Crash. Particularly, with regard to someone or another's behavior. I have to start fresh and accumulate new data, in every case where my memory or personal feelings have left me with nothing to work with, either. Now, does that mean that everyone else on the forum has to forgive and forget, the selfsame person that I'm starting over with? Hell no. If there's a transgression, if there's a personal issue, if there's an OPINION, by any member, over or about any other member... for any reason <insert long trail of litigation-style language>. That is not, EVER trumped by an administrative "decree". Which a clean slate most definitely is not, by the way, a "decree".

Another way of looking at that is... I'm an alcoholic. When I drank, all those years ago (I've been sober since July of 1986), I also happened to have driven while drunk, on more than one occasion. That sad fact is unforgivable. I don't really WANT people to wipe my slate clean. My honesty demands that every detail, good or bad, has to be part of the equation that defines any relating to new friendships, an what-have-you. I am a whole person, with a wide and varied history. All in one package. One either takes me or they don't. They can't erase bits of my history just to suit whatever ideal they may hold to.

While, on the other hand, Rok (a current and past member of the forum) began his entire stay at PF as a lark, really. He stopped by to Troll a Christian member. This we know, as common knowledge, some of us. We don't have any of the data that would prove his statements regarding vampires, Scientologists or any other subject. The forum would (albeit, hesitantly) welcome him back, watching to see if he's still a Troll, looking to disrupt the forum. Would we expect, desire, or even demand that all our other members give him the benefit of the doubt, just as the forum staff is? No. We demand civility. We've created a host of rules that we feel are paramount to this community being peaceful.

With all that in mind, there's been a great many past members, like Rok (or even myself) that have had go-arounds with someone, here or there, in the past. I look back on those that I can remember, where it was a sense of uncivilized behavior, of some measure, that ultimately caused their departure... many of those were really decent people. And either were judged too harshly, had themselves overreacted or judged too harshly or whatever chain of events occurred that didn't sit well with someone. (Like my DUI's). Would I like to still see some of those people around here? You bet your ass I would. I miss RomSpaceKnight, horribly. I loved some of the debates I had with Pretz. Until recently, I would have included LGR, on that list. She re-registered. And I'm very glad that she did. I'm glad that Rok did. We ALL got a fresh start, because of the crash.

Clean slate is only a quasi-useful phrase, a familiar phrase, that is far from accurate to describe the complexity that goes on in this community. It's so much easier to be ambiguous, vague and impersonal, as well of over-simplify any given situation. As Tylluan said, the difficulties are compounded. Exponentially, in fact. Trying to spell out who, what, when, where, why and how, of anything that occurred before our server/host failed us? Is damn near impossible. A "clean slate" is nothing more than a convenience.

And it's a decidedly inconvenient one, at that. Because yes, we have to wipe away the good and the bad. We have to disregard any and all "old news", to get a truly CLEAN slate. For some, that's precisely the case, with their new username. We pretty much have to start from scratch, getting to know them, again, with both the good AND the bad. It makes it extremely difficult, though, for many of us, to KNOW who has changed their username, either in an attempt to (perhaps, unintentionally?) mislead or to outright make a fool of someone. Or a lot of someones.

To top it off, that masquerade can leave a very foul taste, all by itself. And, in fact, TAINT a clean slate right from the get-go.

[Medusa]

Re: Clean Slate?

Clean slates are great. Except for 2 things.
1) Telling everyone about how you want a clean slate when no one asked you.
2) Clean slates are hard to achieve because the problem (YOU) comes right back with it.

[MythManners]

Re: Clean Slate?

Perhaps, when one is stating that he or she is starting over with a clean state, what they really mean is they are no longer clinging to old conflicts and animosities? Perhaps they are making a statement that they are moving forward without prejudice?

[Medusa]

Re: Clean Slate?

[quote author=MythManners link=topic=1299.msg25568#msg25568 date=1293664388]
Perhaps, when one is stating that he or she is starting over with a clean state, what they really mean is they are no longer clinging to old conflicts and animosities? Perhaps they are making a statement that they are moving forward without prejudice?
[/quote]
Then they should do it and stop saying it and bringing more attention to it.
Just sayin

[DanieMarie]

Re: Clean Slate?

From direct, personal experience, no you CANNOT start with a completely clean slate. You're right, just because you change locations doesn't mean you change as a person.

I came to Germany alone, and I didn't know anyone and I didn't have a job. I just finished school and intended to start over (at least for a time....I thought if it didn't work out I'd go back to Canada). I met completely new people and did completely new things, but all my hang-ups from back home (depression, insecurity) came back to haunt me. So not only did I have to adapt to life in a completely new place but I had to do so battling demons.

Paul Varjack in Breakfast at Tiffany's says to Holly Golightly at the end of the movie: "You call yourself a free spirit, a "wild thing," and you're terrified somebody's gonna stick you in a cage. Well baby, you're already in that cage. You built it yourself. And it's not bounded in the west by Tulip, Texas, or in the east by Somali-land. It's wherever you go. Because no matter where you run, you just end up running into yourself." I've never heard truer words in my entire life. That's exactly how things are.

You can start over, and become a better person, but you can't do so without confronting who you were and who you are and everything that goes with that.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Clean Slate?

Many thanks for the responses everyone.

[Dez]

Re: Clean Slate?

I think it's important for people to remember,too, that the forum changed hands fairly recently, all said. That was a much bigger change then simply restarting the forum.

That said, to a certain extent I agree with you, Crimson. There is a big difference between a second chance, and being a sucker. It would also, be a shame to forget the good things.

[LiadanWillows]

Re: Clean Slate?

[quote author=Medusa link=topic=1299.msg25560#msg25560 date=1293662553]
Clean slates are great. Except for 2 things.
1) Telling everyone about how you want a clean slate when no one asked you.
2) Clean slates are hard to achieve because the problem (YOU) comes right back with it.
[/quote]

wonderful point. in my mind there is no such thing as a clean slate mostly because of number 2...

[magusphredde]

Re: Clean Slate?

[quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=1299.msg25458#msg25458 date=1293634209]

To top it off, that masquerade can leave a very foul taste, all by itself. And, in fact, TAINT a clean slate right from the get-go.
[/quote]
Yup ... Bingo ... Never changed my nic ... Never changed who I am .. I do the best I can in the situations life tosses my way ... Granted I get along with most but I am sure there are times and people that just don't quite mesh with me ... Oh well ... I get thru it ... Like Chain, I too have a past ... As I think we all do in one form or another ...

As for the clean slate ... I think that someones personality is just what it is gonna be no matter what they call themselves ... Basic nature usually wins out ... Now I am not saying we can't make changes within ourselves, but there are some things that don't change ... I myself will always be outspoken and sometimes too plain in my manner of speech ... Sometimes I beat around the bush on a subject too much out of care for a persons feelings or just can't find the words that seem right to me ...

Anyway ... That is all I gotta say about that ...

[Roknrol]

Re: Clean Slate?

Not that anyone asked me, in particular

Since I owned the board for such a long time, many of the "rules" (and even the attitudes) were at least partially a result of my specific focuses on where I wanted the Forum to "go". Obviously, under new ownership, those goals will have changed.

So "Clean Slate"? Perhaps not CLEAN...but certainly a NEW slate for people to fuck up all on their own

I intend to use my slate to illustrate how much restraint I was putting myself under while I owned it...I've just been waiting for the right opportunity to start trolling

[magusphredde]

Re: Clean Slate?

*tosses out some troll bait ...