arming the unwashed masses: good or bad? split from Pakistan thread

[anunitu]

The whole carrying guns at the Repub convention...nothing to go wrong there...:confused:

It only takes one crazy with a gun to go way off the planet....

[DragonsFriend]

ISIS would rather behead people than die bombing them. (jk)

I think allowing guns at major conventions is a great idea. Mass killers choose "gun free zones" because they can be the only person with a gun. Nobody would want to try to use a gun when there is a population where more than 50% of the people are carrying there own guns! If they are stupid enough to try they will be stopped before the second or third shot. That means no mass killing since to be a mass killing there has to be at least three innocents killed.

[MaskedOne]

ISIS would rather behead people than die bombing them. (jk)

I think allowing guns at major conventions is a great idea. Mass killers choose "gun free zones" because they can be the only person with a gun. Nobody would want to try to use a gun when there is a population where more than 50% of the people are carrying there own guns! If they are stupid enough to try they will be stopped before the second or third shot. That means no mass killing since to be a mass killing there has to be at least three innocents killed.

That's a possibility. The other is a rousing case of

blue on blue on blue on blue on blue on blue on blue....

when an uncoordinated mob with imperfect information starts reacting to gunfire

I prefer your scenario but I'm somewhat skeptical of its odds.

[B. de Corbin]

A huge group of untrained people carrying guns because they feel the need to protect themselves...

You don't even need a terrorist - all you need is ballon popping and they'll create their own bloodbath.

And that's without including Trump's goons who have already shown a propensity for violence.

[DragonsFriend]

It's funny that the scenario is unbelievable because it happens more often than mass murders. It is relatively easy to spot the bad guy with a gun and fairly easy to see the good guys shooting back. In a mall last year (I don't have the link - sorry) an active shooter saw a man with a gun and stopped shooting and turned his gun on himself. There is also the statistic that police hit their intended target less than 30% of the time while civilians hit their targets more than 70% of the time in actual shootings. In my experience being a member of a police range I would much rather have civilians protecting me with guns than police because generally (there are some very good shooters on police forces) cops are bad shots. I am not a perfect shot but I train more and use my gun more than most police do. I choose to carry and recognize the responsibility of doping so. I have only drawn my gun once in the 43 years that I have carried one and that was on an attacking animal. I did not have to use my gun.

[B. de Corbin]

It's funny that the scenario is unbelievable because it happens more often than mass murders. It is relatively easy to spot the bad guy with a gun and fairly easy to see the good guys shooting back. In a mall last year (I don't have the link - sorry) an active shooter saw a man with a gun and stopped shooting and turned his gun on himself. There is also the statistic that police hit their intended target less than 30% of the time while civilians hit their targets more than 70% of the time in actual shootings. In my experience being a member of a police range I would much rather have civilians protecting me with guns than police because generally (there are some very good shooters on police forces) cops are bad shots. I am not a perfect shot but I train more and use my gun more than most police do. I choose to carry and recognize the responsibility of doping so. I have only drawn my gun once in the 43 years that I have carried one and that was on an attacking animal. I did not have to use my gun.

Could you reference any examples where groups of excited armed people prevented a mass shooting?

[anunitu]

The secret service put the kibosh on people carrying,so no go with the armed political nut jobs.

[DragonsFriend]

First, people who carry concealed weapons are not prone to get excited about pulling their guns. It is not something we look forward to. There are multiple reports in every American Rifleman magazine each month of local papers published events where people use their own legal weapons to protect themselves and others. Most of the time no shots are even fired but the criminal recognizing an armed person either gives up or leaves. There was one a couple of months ago where a man entered a large barber shop with about twenty or so people in the place and started shooting. One of the patron drew his own gun and fired once disabling the armed attacker. The sheriff told the reporter that this man saved lives and that this could have easily been another "mass shooting" had it not been for the guy with the concealed weapon. There was a similar event in Seattle in last months edition where a person with a concealed pistol permit stopped an active shooter after one innocent was injured. nobody but the criminal died. I don't keep the copies of these magazines unless there is an article that has special interest to me so I can't give you details. These events happen daily across the nation and are rarely in the news because they are not deemed news worthy. I also tend to think that if more people knew how often guns were used by normal people to stop or prevent crimes it would be impossible to further restrict the right to own and carry a gun in this country.

[ThePaganMafia]

I train more and use my gun more than most police do.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png

[B. de Corbin]

First, people who carry concealed weapons are not prone to get excited about pulling their guns. It is not something we look forward to. There are multiple reports in every American Rifleman magazine each month of local papers published events where people use their own legal weapons to protect themselves and others. Most of the time no shots are even fired but the criminal recognizing an armed person either gives up or leaves. There was one a couple of months ago where a man entered a large barber shop with about twenty or so people in the place and started shooting. One of the patron drew his own gun and fired once disabling the armed attacker. The sheriff told the reporter that this man saved lives and that this could have easily been another "mass shooting" had it not been for the guy with the concealed weapon. There was a similar event in Seattle in last months edition where a person with a concealed pistol permit stopped an active shooter after one innocent was injured. nobody but the criminal died. I don't keep the copies of these magazines unless there is an article that has special interest to me so I can't give you details. These events happen daily across the nation and are rarely in the news because they are not deemed news worthy. I also tend to think that if more people knew how often guns were used by normal people to stop or prevent crimes it would be impossible to further restrict the right to own and carry a gun in this country.

Armed crowds of wannabe heroes? Each situation you have mentioned involves one shooter, and one armed person.

I'm looking for the mob scenes that more accurately reflect a political national convention, especially something in which participants have previously shown a willingness to deal with opposition via violence.

I can't find comparable situations in the US, outside of movies. In other countries, where excited groups carrying weapons is more common, the results look frightening.

Also, in reviewing the psychological literature on the behavior of crowds in panic situations, I am inclined to stand by my statement.

[monsno_leedra]

Yep the beast or heard mind is not something I personally would want to provide weapons to. You have enough incidents of multiple cops shooting across and hitting friendly cops much less in a crowd situation.

[DragonsFriend]

Unless you have some training or experience with real people and real guns in an active shooter situation you are fantasizing.
I know people who train and carry their guns just as I do. None of us are heros and none of us are looking forward to the day we can kill another human. We train to protect ourselves and those we love. Your fantasy about half a crowd pulling out their guns and blasting away is nothing like reality.
As far as being a "badass" I am too old to be considered a threat to anyone. If I had to save your life by stopping a shooter, I would. Would you be able to do the same for someone else? Maybe you could reason with him or her to stop killing innocent people.

[thalassa]

Going hunting or to the range is not the same as training to use a weapon in a hostile environment.

[B. de Corbin]

Unless you have some training or experience with real people and real guns in an active shooter situation you are fantasizing.
I know people who train and carry their guns just as I do. None of us are heros and none of us are looking forward to the day we can kill another human. We train to protect ourselves and those we love. Your fantasy about half a crowd pulling out their guns and blasting away is nothing like reality.

I'm too busy right now to respond fully - the response is complicated, but I have to ask 2 questions - 1) can you speak for 100% of those who carry guns? 2) are you at all familiar with chaos theory and how it applies in this particular case?

If your answer to the first question is "yes," it is you who are engaging in fantasy. If you answer "no" to the second question, you do not have information essential to forming a sound opinion on this. If you answer "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second, then you are being disingenuous at best in expressing such an opinion, and lying at worst.

The logic is inescapable. With even moderate knowledge of the situation, and a working understanding of the concepts necessary to answer this kind of question, a person would have to be either an imbecile or maniac to recommend that guns be brought into such a situation.

I will return when I have time to further explain, if necessary.

[ThePaganMafia]

You have the same odds of dying by a gun(not even homicide related) as you do dieing by an automobile accident. 1 in 4 people will die of heart disease. You got a better chance of saving your family if you tell them to put down the chicken.

We understand your intense need to act self-righteous towards everybody but you're actual effectiveness in protecting anyone is about zero. And I am not even in the anti-gun crowd. Don't sit here and talk about how your training at the gun range will prepare you for real life combat situations against mass shooters because that's not how it works. Soldiers, who are well trained, fuck up all the time. Don't sit there and tell me a bunch of civilians will be able to safely react and respond to a surprise armed threat in the middle of a crowd.

[MaskedOne]

Unless you have some training or experience with real people and real guns in an active shooter situation you are fantasizing.


TPM is ex-Army and I think his deployment was Iraq, my memory might be wrong. Thal, Anu and Monsno are all ex-Navy. Monsno may or may not have other relevant experience. I'm not gonna comment on what relevant studies any of them has done. Corbin is a civilian gun owner who I'm relatively confident keeps in practice with his firearms and you don't need to know a damn thing about what I can do with a gun unless you threaten me while a weapon is in my hands. I say all of this with a clear conscience because the background information I've just provided is freely available on PF to anyone who pays a modicum of attention to other forum members. If you are going to play the card of relevant experience and training then their collective experience in relevant fields trumps anything you've mentioned to date and they all seem opposed to the idea of heavily armed civilian crowds as an answer to mass shootings. Care to try again.

[Hawkfeathers]

I'm strongly on the "NO" side about the general population being armed at large events. There are many factors that go into whether or not someone can manage a crowd shooting scenario, and most gun owners are better equipped to deal with a home invasion, etc., where there's one target and not a lot of screaming people in the way.
I live in an area where most people have guns. I see people open carrying at Walmart, etc., as a matter of course. I'm an excellent shot myself. But, a lot of these same people have never even been in a real crowd. I would not support them taking action in a situation like a Madison Square Garden game/concert, other than the few who actually have military or other training which would support that. I would not support myself taking action in a situation like that at this point in time, due to age-related things. Some of my friends who are even older still think they are Rambo, yet I see them taking longer to react at traffic lights, etc. These are the very ones who insist that everyone should be armed everywhere! Ugh.

[monsno_leedra]

TPM is ex-Army and I think his deployment was Iraq, my memory might be wrong. Thal, Anu and Monsno are all ex-Navy. Monsno may or may not have other relevant experience. I'm not gonna comment on what relevant studies any of them has done. Corbin is a civilian gun owner who I'm relatively confident keeps in practice with his firearms and you don't need to know a damn thing about what I can do with a gun unless you threaten me while a weapon is in my hands. I say all of this with a clear conscience because the background information I've just provided is freely available on PF to anyone who pays a modicum of attention to other forum members. If you are going to play the card of relevant experience and training then their collective experience in relevant fields trumps anything you've mentioned to date and they all seem opposed to the idea of heavily armed civilian crowds as an answer to mass shootings. Care to try again.

Sort of plays into what your saying.

Growing up it was pretty set as a boy you had a gun and hunted or shoot. One day a number of us were out hunting and something came out of the thick brush. Lots of rifles suddenly going off with lots of skilled shooters. Yet it didn't stop people from turning and shooting, bullets striking in the tree's near you or over you and some bouncing off the ground. Sort of like pulling targets on the range and listening to rounds strike overhead or worse come bouncing back up under the shelter after the rebound off the metal frame on a target. Lovely though if its a tracer round.

That is the scenario I think most likely to occur in a dense environment even if everyone is a skilled marksman. Locating, positioning and applying fire coming from all directions potentially and in a second potentially no one knowing who the shooter is and shooting at other well intended people who've drawn their weapons. Not even the luxury of having some type of uniform or markings to indicate who or what they are. There are enough friendly fire kills in conflicts where you actually have some idea of who and where the shooter is and you have uniforms to denote who is who. All of that occurring as panic and disorder strike and the mass moves as a herd as they try to evade the shooter and exit the area. Trampling and shoving anyone and everyone, even those who are trying to engage and are now a danger to others as the herd slams into them.

Sorry no place to introduce firearms simply to have them. Be like screaming fire in a crowded room and then trying to direct and control people as they run scared while you look to disarm or return fire across a bobbing and weaving sea of bodies and heads.

[Medusa]

Anyone remember that lady who was a gun owner, put her gun under her car seat. It rolled in back. Her toddler picked it up and shot her in the back?

That's not even a terrorist. That's a toddler.

Come on now.

[Hawkfeathers]

^^^ That's one of those Venn diagram thingies. Some toddler are terrorists, but not all terrorists are toddlers, etc.

[ThePaganMafia]

All toddlers are terrorists.

[anunitu]

That woman is/was not that bright..You do the child safe thing..those plugs in the electric sockets,child proof locks on cabinets,you know the drill if you are/were a parent.

[Medusa]

All toddlers are terrorists.

Aint that the horrid truth. They have no respect for others. Didn't we decide it's ok to have toddlers get the death sentence?:p

[monsno_leedra]

That woman is/was not that bright..You do the child safe thing..those plugs in the electric sockets,child proof locks on cabinets,you know the drill if you are/were a parent.

Most definitely. I know I get asked why I go so far as to have my grandchildren treat play guns, play Bows, etc with the same treatment, respect and usage I do for the real things. Always figured if they don't start out the right way then you can't expect them to unlearn and start over later.

[anunitu]

Aint that the horrid truth. They have no respect for others. Didn't we decide it's ok to have toddlers get the death sentence?:p

Kids,not for the faint of heart.......Best to have them while young because you can keep up with them..A kid,energy gone wild...

[anunitu]

To be clear,I did not start this debate thread...just to be clear.

[thalassa]

To be clear,I did not start this debate thread...just to be clear.


You did not, it was just the best place to cut the other thread.

[anunitu]

I know...it just startled me to see my name on the beginning..I am only gonna watch anyway.

[Hawkfeathers]

To be clear,I did not start this debate thread...just to be clear.

"Let me make one thing perfectly clear" - Pres. Nixon. We used to say it all the time in school back then.

[Bartmanhomer]

I don't know. It may seem like a good idea to bring guns in a convention first, but you have to do a background check, see if you're mentally stable to handle a gun. Not to go in the wrong hands. Then there's chaos and disorder in the way and things will go out of hand. So I'm really going to say no on this one.

[Medusa]

So 7-11 had this one day a year where you get a free slurpee and bring your own 'cup'. The mass cannot control themselves and they lose their ever loving minds.

Chuck E Cheeses is a place for kids and their parents to eat bad pizza. And once a week they are in the papers for having full on fist fights. The mass cannot control themselves and they lose their ever loving minds.

PEz had a free Easter event this Sunday.
cue the masses.
Cue them losing their ever loving minds.

[anunitu]

Yup,people are a bit "OFF" more than they are all good in the cabasa ,rather they are,loco de la cabasa.(points for cool?)