The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

[kijani]

Hey everyone! I'm starting this thread back up since we lost it when the site went boom. So here's version 2, yay!

That said, if anyone's interested, we'll be starting with the simple stuff and working our way up from there.

Anyone game?

[Dumuzi]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Arigato!

[Celest]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

it sounds interesting, but this dog might be too old to learn those new tricks.. (I had to give up on Dumuzi's thread to teach us Arabic.

I will pop by to learn a few of the basics; greetings, etc.

[Bjorn]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

I'll admit that I'm interested, but not in actually learning how the language works, or familiarizing myself with the alphabet. I want to know how to pronounce things.

[Caelia]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Sugoi! I am very out of practice and would love to brush up. That and I really need to learn kanji (I tried to teach myself with furigana, but I don't have access to enough kid's stuff T_T)

[kijani]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Sugoi! I am very out of practice and would love to brush up. That and I really need to learn kanji (I tried to teach myself with furigana, but I don't have access to enough kid's stuff T_T)

I can help with that! And with pronunciation. We'll probably actually start with that, but not until tomorrow. For now I need sleep. If those of you who are interested could let me know what you'd like to learn, that would be awesome. I know we have a few people around here who have studied the language as well. I hope this thread helps.

[Jembru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Aww, this thread just kinda stopped. My boyfriend and I have made it our New Year's resolution to weed out all our sloppy grammar mistakes. Once we've moved into our new place (whenever THAT happens), we'll start saving to visit my Japanese friends in Kanagawa. He's never spoken with native speakers before and mainly learned from anime, so he has a rather unusual flavour to his speech. I studied German for a year and a half and I sometimes get confused if I haven't spoken either for a few weeks and my Japanese has become muddled up with German grammar (don't ask me how, because they're so different). I'm ashamed of how sloppy I've become, so we're both keen to improve before the visit.

[habbalah]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Please do revive this! I haven't had Japanese lessons in a long time and I'm incredibly rusty.

[Jembru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Well then, lets hope someone with a good grasp of the language gets on board. if so, we could try chatting in romaji (because not everyone will know kana/kanji). Then others could comment on our mistakes, explaining why it is wrong and what we could have said instead. For those who want to practise kanji, maybe they could write in kanji with the romaji after, with the same intention? This could work. Of course, some of us will need to rely heavily on dictionaries at first, but we'll be gentle and supportive with one another.

What do you think? If we do this, we should probably keep the Japanese short at first though, or it will be a lot of work for those helping us out. I could maybe help absolute beginners, but anything beyond the basics will be at risk of me correcting one mistake with another ^^ Oh and we'll have to agree on whether or not we use the polite/neutral voice. I tend to blend them in a very inelegant fashion, usually because I can't remember if a verb is yodan or ichidan

[habbalah]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

My kanji and kana are crap, but I'd be happy to chat in romanji. TurningTides is actually really good at Japanese--I'll see if I can get her involved.

Just make a note that I'll probably refer to myself with male pronouns. I usually end up doing it in any foreign language I use. Not on purpose--I just can never remember the female.

[Jembru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

The OP seems to still be active on the site too. Maybe she will help?

Until we get an offer of assistance, I'll get things rolling by attempting to help Bjorn with her enquiry about pronunciation. If you (habbalah) or anyone else can add anything or see fault in my explanations, feel free to comment.

Compared to many other languages. Japanese is easy to pronounce really. There are only 5 vowels so if you listen to those (youtube has a few videos that lets you hear them) and practise repeating them, you should get it very quickly. There are a few things that can trip you up though.

1) The (almost) silent sounds. They are ever so slightly voiced but to the untrained ear, appear missing. I'm going to have to speak as though it is written with the roman alphabet, otherwise it will be too hard to explain. The main ones (actually, the only ones I can think of) are 'i' and 'u' sounds. It seems to happen when they occur after unvoiced consonants ('shi', 'hi', 'tsu' and 'fu' I can't think of any others so if anyone else can, feel free to add them), when they are followed by another unvoiced consonant. ('shita', 'hito', 'tsukau', futsuka). The vowels 'i' and 'u' are also often almost silent at the end of words. This is most common if the word ends in 'shi', 'tsu' or 'su'. Unfortunately, this pattern is not cast iron so you'll hear them voiced clearly at times too, and they are almost always sounded when singing. It's something you just pick up with practise, but knowing this will at least help you to say words you read more authentically.

2) There is a sound written in Japanese with a small 'tsu' which in roman letters is written as a double consonant. If you see this in a word, 'matte' for example, there is a slight pause before the 'tte'. tte is also a word itself, which I still can't get the hang of, but my boyfriend can do it and he knows what I mean from context.

3) The only consonants that are particularly tricky are 'f' (which only occurs before 'u') and those written with an 'r'. The hiragana row that 'fu' belongs to is 'ha, 'hi', fu', 'he', 'ho' and there is no 'hu' in Japanese. This should offer a clue to how it is pronounced. It is softer than the English 'f' because the lips don't touch. Try saying an f and an 'h' at the same time and you'll be close enough. ra, ri, ru, re, and ro are a little more tricky. This sound is somewhere between an r and an l and for most people, takes a little bit of practise (and I still make mistakes with this one). Rather than rolling like the 'r' in Spanish for example, it is more of a quick single flick of the tongue against the roof of the mouth. That is the best way I can explain it.

Hope that made sense.

EDIT;

4) how could I forget 'n'. While Japanese has 'na', 'ni', 'nu', 'ne' and 'no', it also has a special syllabic 'n' (so called because it forms a syllable of it's own, so words such as 'konban' are broken down as 'ko-n-ba-n'). It's usually easy to spot because it will be at the end of the word, or followed by a consonant.

'n' is pronounced differently from both English 'n' and also those seen in 'na', 'ni' etc.. (which are more or less like in English). although it does resemble an N, it is sounded without the teeth touching, from the back of the throat and can sound quite nasal. To English ears it can be hard to pick up in some accents until you're a bit more familiar with the language.

Finally, when romanising, some writers will use an 'm' when it appears before a b or p (voiced consonants). Its softer sound makes it resemble an m a little I guess. I prefer to always use an 'n' to complicate things as little as I possibly can. There is no standardized way to write in romaji so it's up to the individual.

So on that note..

Ganbatte!

[kijani]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Sorry about that, guys. Real life has been a little nuts lately.

Jembru, your pronunciation guide was pretty awesome. Thanks for posting that while I fell off the face of the earth. It's pretty complete. You can use a pronunciation guide like that to help you figure out foreign words in Japanese. Katakana is one of the alphabets. The pronunciation is the same as Jembru explained above, but Katakana is used usually for foreign names and concepts. It's also ugly and I don't like it.

/rant.

With pronunciation, be wary of a few things, especially depending on where you travel.

That tricky r/l combo... Try and do your best to get that. That particular consonant/vowel combo comes up in lots of words, and while people will know what you mean if you say WAKALIMASHITA (wow it's weird writing that in Romanji) it's incorrect, and depending on who you're talking to, they're apt to look at you funny.

I listen to lots of Japanese music while studying to try and keep myself constantly thinking about pronounciation and how sentences are structured. Be wary of taking too much directly out of anime, although it can still be very useful... sometimes, it's quite crude and not good for proper conversation at all.

And fear not! The tte combo isn't too bad. It's kinda like a little pause (I'm going to hunt down some good audio sources for this thread. Caelia, I also have an interactive kanji learning source as well!) And the tte word by itself is something that I have never heard of, and can't find, so I can't offer any insight into that. There's no way to write it on it's own that is grammatically correct that I know of, because the double consonant is produced with a small 'tsu' followed by a 'te'. I'll look into it a bit further and see if I can find anything, but as far as I'm aware, that is not something that you need to worry about. I'll check my dictionary.

For now though, I need to run to the store, so I'll return as soon as possible.

[Jembru]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

And fear not! The tte combo isn't too bad. It's kinda like a little pause (I'm going to hunt down some good audio sources for this thread. Caelia, I also have an interactive kanji learning source as well!) And the tte word by itself is something that I have never heard of, and can't find, so I can't offer any insight into that. There's no way to write it on it's own that is grammatically correct that I know of, because the double consonant is produced with a small 'tsu' followed by a 'te'. I'll look into it a bit further and see if I can find anything, but as far as I'm aware, that is not something that you need to worry about. I'll check my dictionary.

Thanks for agreeing to help us out. I'll do my best to keep this thread active. I'm spending a few days with my boyfriend though so things might be a bit quiet from me for a short while.

tte probably won't appear in a dictionary. It is a marker for reported speech in the sense of 'he said that' and can also be used as a tag to enquire further information on a subject. I looked it up in my grammar book and it says it's an 'idiomatic casual marker for reported speech'. It is pretty common in casual speech but you won't hear it in polite speech. I never saw it in any teach yourself books either but as I found just now, grammars have it in.

Oh and you're right about how it is written. Also, if we are ever really stuck on a point and none of us is sure, one of my Japanese friends has told me to email her with anything and she'll gladly help us out.

Okay, I'm really looking forward to getting our teeth into this thread. Lord knows I need the practice.

EDIT: I recently learned a new use of tte. It can replace 'wa' in the sense of 'speaking of', and it is extremely common in this usage. Once I noticed it, I started to notice it everywhere.. on my podcast, in anime, and even the 'phrase of the day'. I've been using these things for a while now, but it seems I kept missing this use of tte because I was too focused on the other words in the sentence. Particles are easily missed while you're listening for the main words!

Just thought I'd add that to make the tte discussion more complete.

[turningtides]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Hooray, Japanese thread! (This is what I get for not being on as much!) I'd love to help out as much as I can too! I used to live there...but it's been awhile since that time. I admit my sight-kanji is really rusty. But I've been using the spoken-romaji form when chatting with Habbalah.

Jembru's explanation is a great intro to the language! :3 To add to his/her(?) information:

2) The 'tte': My Japanese student asked me why we wrote words like 'matte' with the 'tte' in romaji (that represented the little 'tsu' in the middle of the word). That got me thinking, and the closest English equivalent I can think of in pronouncing words with the little 'tsu' is the tiny pause in words like 'hottest' and 'hopping'. It's not obvious, but if you can differentiate between 'hoping' and 'hopping' in regular conversation, you're good to go.

(I will try to dig/write up the awesome verb conjugation sheet my TA made years ago. It showed why verbs sounded the way they did in the middle of sentences.)

Finally, when romanising, some writers will use an 'm' when it appears before a b or p (voiced consonants). Its softer sound makes it resemble an m a little I guess. I prefer to always use an 'n' to complicate things as little as I possibly can. There is no standardized way to write in romaji so it's up to the individual.

You can also hear it in words like "Konbanwa" spoken like "KOMbanwa". Another is 'convenience store', or katakana-ized as 'konbini'.

[kijani]

Re: The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0)

Thanks for agreeing to help us out. I'll do my best to keep this thread active. I'm spending a few days with my boyfriend though so things might be a bit quiet from me for a short while.

tte probably won't appear in a dictionary. It is a marker for reported speech in the sense of 'he said that' and can also be used as a tag to enquire further information on a subject. I looked it up in my grammar book and it says it's an 'idiomatic casual marker for reported speech'. It is pretty common in casual speech but you won't hear it in polite speech. I never saw it in any teach yourself books either but as I found just now, grammars have it in.

Oh and you're right about how it is written. Also, if we are ever really stuck on a point and none of us is sure, one of my Japanese friends has told me to email her with anything and she'll gladly help us out.

Okay, I'm really looking forward to getting our teeth into this thread. Lord knows I need the practice.

I'd like to know what book you're getting that information from as I've never heard of it. I've been studying conversational and formal Japanese since I was 15 and haven't come across the 'tte'. I did find a small section in my grammar book that marks it similar to the use of a quotation mark. However, I still haven't come across it in written or conversational yet...apart from on wikipedia. There are other alternatives that are both more widely accepted and easier to pronounce. 'tte' has a lot of rules attached to its usage. As a conversational marker, 'iimasu' is much more widely accepted and has much less rules attached to it. If you're looking to be more polite, it's also the better option to use.


Caelia, if you're looking for some good kanji learning resources, this site has a list of some sites that are absolutely wonderful sources.

http://www.kanjiclinic.com/toptwelve.htm

There is also this site. It looks like the game itself is some sort of java program, and you can change the way it works, but if you already know some kanji and want to test your knowledge, I used this and something similar when I was prepping for the JLPT a few years ago. The link is here:

https://www.msu.edu/~lakejess/kanjigame.html

It's a drill game, but you can change the way that the prompts and answers appear based on how you want to do it. I hope it's useful.