Tolerance

[Rebecca]

I wrote in my introduction I became less tolerant of religious intolerance. I am trying to become more tolerant. So for my own therapy I wrote this.

Sacred Union

I am the Goddess!
I am Freya, Isis, & Artemis. I am Brigid, Rhiannon & Gaia.

I am the Goddess of Water & Adoration
Of Wind & Wisdom
Of Flames & Inspiration
Of Earth & Nature, I nurture everything that grows.

I am the mystic Moon, alluring illusion, murmuring music on a stormy night.
I am the soothing rain, bathing you in intuition & bliss,
weeping for & with you.
I am the steel wrung from rock and forged in fire, sharp as my mind,
quick as my wit and strong as my essence.
I whisper wisdom in the wind, carrying myth throughout the ages, keeping
ancient truths alive.

I am the God!
I am Odin, Osiris & Apollo. I am Lugh, Cernunnos, Silvanus.

I am the God of Fire & Creation
Of Oceans & Passion
Of Air & Reason
Of Forests & Force

I am the Sun, radiant resplendent, my heat fuels harvest fruits to grow.
I am stormy seas of despair & desire, of anguish & empathy in an ever
moving cycle of tides.
I shelter and protect you in my cradle of mountains and woods.
I am the hurricanes of hope, collecting ever growing knowledge and
bringing the inevitable wind of change.

Together we are holy, together we are whole.

Rebecca Z.

[thalassa]

Re: Religious tolerance.

I think one of the best quotes I have come across about tolerance is this:

"True tolerance means looking differences squarely in the eye and admitting the appalling fact that when other people seem to differ from us, this is because they actually believe their view of the world to be true. It is an occupational hazard of pluralism that we must live alongside people who differ from us. This gives rise to discomfort, displeasure, fear, and even anger. Civilization asks that, at such times, we refrain from drawing swords. It requires that we continue to draw distinctions." From the article, "Voices of the New Generation," by Elizabeth Kristol, The New York Times, Sept. 25, 1989.

Also...somewhere...if I can ever find it...

I came across a multifaith ritual prayer for religious tolerance. The hubby's pagan group on the ship used it several times...usually when they had individuals infiltrate their group under the guise of "interested parties" and Father K (the ship's Catholic chaplain) wasn't there to run interference. If I can find it, I'll post it...because its quite interesting.

[Rebecca]

Re: Religious tolerance.

Thank you! It is very well written. And I will read it over again to help me settle when I feel like drawing swords...

[ChainLightning]

Tolerance

From Feb 26, 2007:

Ok, this is a good place, and I think (all things considering) a good time for me to discuss the levels of tolerance that Girlgoyle, myself, and the Staff here are willing to go through - and why

Why? Well...because the Members here deserve to know - if they care - and it's been far too long since I've ranted and rambled about the almighty "Tolerance" topic

There are people that piss me off. No foolin'! There are members on this board that make me grind my teeth when I see their posts (most of them know already who they are Wink ), but they have EVERY right here to come here and discuss their beliefs and opinions - no matter how much I disagree with them.

Christians? I invite 'em! Mormons too! I've actually sent emails to the Church of Scientology ASKING them to come in for some decent discussion!

And now we have a member that belongs to a subculture known to be intolerant of others. Ok, so that sounds really really bad...queue the "DUN DUN DUN duuuuuuuunnnnnn" music if you will. OMFG! What do we do?!?!?!?

Why do anything? Obviously, people who are intentionally offensive, flaming, disruptive...THOSE people can safely be labeled as Trolls and booted without a second thought.

But someone that sees the world just a bit differently than ourselves? Sure, it's not a path that I want to be on...it's not a direction that I want to take my life...and it's certainly not something that I would want any one of the members here to adopt as their own.

But.

(you knew that was coming Wink )

But...isn't everyone entitled to their opinions? Isn't everyone entitled to a modicum of respect - even if we perceive that it may not be reciprocated? Can't we wait until a person *proves* that they don't deserve it, before we make assumptions based on...what? A minor aspect of the persons' view of the world?

I don't ban people for who they are. I don't ban people for what they are. And I *TOLERATE* an aweful lot...because I would hate to think that I rejected an otherwise decent, intelligent person because of one quirk in their personality or beliefs.

I have met - and dealt with - hundreds of different types of people...age, gender, colour, outlook, religion, sexual orientation, body modification (or not), into S&M or as innocent as a child. The one thing that I've noticed...and the one thing that bugs me...is that EVERYONE thinks that they're better than someone else. Everyone.

"NOT ME!!!" I hear the cries from the wings....yeah...I'm nodding right now and rolling my eyes, because I doubt there's a single person here that would put themselves on equal footing with the child raping beastial necropheliac that listens to Judy Garland albums while bathing in mayonaise. Right? Right. Back to my point.

Until someone shows that they shouldn't be allowed here, they are. That's the end. Everyone gets annoyed or upset by other people...that's part of being in society. Everyone deserves to not be attacked - that is what myself, GG, and the Mods here provide. But walling ourselves off from society - even those areas that we may not like - can ONLY limit our experiences and understandings, not expand on them.

For those of you that have been here for as long as I have, you'll recall why I joined this forum in the first place: To Troll a Christian. It's a true story...I joined to flame a Christian the Girlgoyle had read...and I joined immediately. Of course, it didn't take me long to notice that this Christian - albeit a little pushy - was on the Defensive almost the entire time he was here. It was actually kind of depressing to see this large group of natureloving "tolerant" people, jumping this guys crap because he had a different belief than they did.

Most of us here are members of one of the most tolerant religions that has ever existed. Most Pagans, by and large, don't care how people live, what they believe, what colour they are, what sexual preferences they have...we tend to not discriminate against the tall or short, the fat or thin...the attractive and the homely...yet I have noticed, by and large, a preference for attacking certain "target" groups. The groups that everyone figures are just so stupid (by comparison) to our great big enlightened brains.

I cannot preach tolerance and be intolerant myself. I cannot preach acceptance while I exclude even ONE person from this boards without good cause. If I cannot accept others for their foibles, flaws, beliefs, opinions, and ideas, why in the world should I expect *anyone* else to accept me for who and what I am?

Yeah...it's long...but it needed to be said. I encourage diversity because it helps us grow. Be respectful and stick around...I don't care WHAT someone believes...it's the a**hole that gets Moderated :P

Obviously, Rok and GG are no longer on the staff, let alone owners, but...


Thoughts?

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Tolerance

I agreed with it then and I agree with it now. I even recall the user generating the debate. He was a neo-nazi, someone who perverted the lore and teachings of my ancestors and twisted it into a sad and hateful mockery of all that it stood for. Even given that, I agreed with Rok on this. This is, arguably, a public forum. While I may not like someone's ideas, and in that case I was vehemently against them, I think that everyone has the right to speak about them. Up until blatantly hateful/hurtful posts become what a user is know for, I think they should have the ability to post here.

Then again, I'm not one of the owners nor one of the moderators, so take my opinion for what you deem it is worth.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Tolerance

I don't find it at all surprising, CH, that you, Rok and I all had pretty much the same view, regarding the user that brought this up, or more specifically his allegiances versus his diatribe.

It's the crossing of a line from a view, opinion and/or belief right off into attacks, slurs and abuses. If that line isn't crossed, does one still send the bigot/racist packing? Doesn't that set a dangerous precedent?

[thalassa]

Re: Tolerance

[quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=298.msg3251#msg3251 date=1287186601]
It's the crossing of a line from a view, opinion and/or belief right off into attacks, slurs and abuses. If that line isn't crossed, does one still send the bigot/racist packing? Doesn't that set a dangerous precedent?
[/quote]

I was one of the people that got insulting PM's from him...and I was not alone there, nor did I seek him out prior to that. Personally...he's a really bad example to use.

...that being said...

The law provides for the freedom of speech of all individuals...but a private individual and private group gets to determine at what point which speech is acceptable to them or not.

You have the right to say whatever you want to on the street...but once you are in my house, I have a limit to what I have to tolerate, I can and will refuse you hospitality and kick you out--I also have the right to have standards.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Tolerance

It depends, I suppose. There are several things that I see on PF that I find offensive, however I realise that the intent is not to offend. I believe the line is crossed when someone goes out of their way to be offensive. From that point on, I think they've waived whatever 'right' they've had to the hospitality of this board and it's members.

That said, as Thalassa pointed out, this forum is privately owned. It is only public at the continued cost and work of its owners and maintainers. What goes here, what is tolerable, is determined by said figures. Then again, I suppose that is the purpose of the thread, to determine exactly that.

[thalassa]

Re: Tolerance

[quote author=Crimson Horizons link=topic=298.msg3258#msg3258 date=1287188475]
There are several things that I see on PF that I find offensive, however I realise that the intent is not to offend. I believe the line is crossed when someone goes out of their way to be offensive. From that point on, I think they've waived whatever 'right' they've had to the hospitality of this board and it's members.
[/quote]

I concur....but I call "out of their way" the point at which someone is warned, and continues with said behavior. And, tbh, 9 times out of 10 the general membership doesn't see that happen...because its kept behind the scenes.

[thalassa]

Re: Religious tolerance.

In short, I hope for an America where neither "fundamentalist" nor "humanist" will be a dirty word, but a fair description of the different ways in which people of goodwill look at life and into their own souls.

I hope for an America where no president, no public official, no individual will ever be deemed a greater or lesser American because of religious doubt -- or religious belief.

I hope for an America where the power of faith will always burn brightly, but where no modern Inquisition of any kind will ever light the fires of fear, coercion, or angry division.

I hope for an America where we can all contend freely and vigorously, but where we will treasure and guard those standards of civility which alone make this nation safe for both democracy and diversity.



from a Speech by Ted Kennedy given in 1983 to Liberty University (the college started by Jerry Faldwell) @ http://www.americanrhetoric.com/spee...;tolerance.htm

[weareoceansaway]

Re: Tolerance

Thalassa, both being Navy, we've had to tolerate all sorts of things. I'm still tolerating insensitive bulldonkeys who think only of themselves, who degrade others because of their differences, who think so highly of themselves that they can do no wrong, that their Path (in every way, not just spiritual) is the only Path and everyone else is completely wrong. I used to get extremely angry against these people and used to have a big mouth (it comes with the Irish heritage!), but I learned that it only fuels their fires and makes some of their assumptions correct.

Now, I wasn't here when the Troll came to town, but I agree with what you all are saying. Offensive or not, tolerance is one thing that Wicca/Pagans are known for. For all the bad rap we usually get, tolerance is our strong point. Or, it should be. I've had more conversations with people of Christian/RC/Mormon/ect faiths than I've had with my own, honestly. I tend to question EVERYTHING. As long as I start politely, give my views on the subject, and don't push my own issue, these conversations are entirely pleasant and informative. Two people of different Paths can feel like equals. I've also had 'tolerant' Christians scream in my face and call me unworthy, but after biting my tongue and asking 'why?' a few times, heck, those people even gave me a few grumbling answers and we walked away as people instead of enemies. I don't know what he was writing, and honestly I don't want to know, but I find confusing those kinds of people by being tolerant and asking questions gets rid of them faster....or at least shows them that they cannot start fires under water. We are a strong people as a whole, fostered by kind and supportive Deities; this is always what I believed, especially after meeting a few Pagans who would help out the local church kitchen dressed in robes and pentagrams, standing next to nuns in their traditional garb!
I think I'm babbling again, but the tolerance 'issue' has always been a key note with me. Sure, I get mad too and I want to shout and fight for my own spiritual path; but in the end, everyone looks like fools and no one has gotten anywhere.
I'm glad ya'll keep it behind closed doors, too. Airing dirty laundry starts its own fires.... ^ - ^

[Grim]

Re: Tolerance

The English language can be so interesting.
Tolerance is one of those words I find so interesting. It is normally used in such a way that says I really hate something about you but I will tolerate you. Then others use it as some grandiose ideal.

Go with respect then when they disrespect you, you can find tolerance.

[weareoceansaway]

Re: Tolerance

I rather enjoy grandiose ideas, for the simple fact that not many people think them. Reach for the moon, and at least you'll land among the stars... Corny, I know. ^ - ^ But you are correct, the English language is extremely interesting.
And I love your own, very simple, concise, and straight to the point quote. Now why can't I articulate myself like that?
Grim, your amazing. Marry me? ^ - ^

[Maythe]

Re: Tolerance

Freedom of speech is pretty irrelevant here, at least as a legal concept. This isn't a democracy, it's an owned space on the internet. If you get kicked off, don't like the rules, or whatever here, you can go make your own little space on the internet where you can say what you damn well please. Saying 'we will not tolerate racism, homophobia etc in this forum' doesn't impede anyone's freedom of speech because they can go say it elsewhere. I think there are some things we shouldn't tolerate and abuse via PM of our members and repeated incidents of racism etc certainly fall in that category. I think I remember the guy we're talking about and, IIRC, I felt there was too much worrying about it and not enough boot up the arse punting the guy out through the door.

The mods on this forum seem to get it right most of the time though IMO :-*

[Dufonce]

Re: Tolerance

we should make another forum as a joke "People against Freedom of Speech" we'll all sign up but all posting will be locked. all that will be in the posts would be set by the admin and it would be the rules and such... which includes "No discussing anything at any time"