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    Regarding Runes

    First, please pardon my probably silly question. I am very new to the pagan path and have alot to learn.
    If my studies thus far I have come across 2 types of runes.
    "witches" Runes and the larger set of what look like Norse Runes.
    Can anyone tell me the origins of these runes? Are they simply magical symbols or are the same symbols use in ancient norse writings? TY

    #2
    Re: Regarding Runes

    I'm not an expert on this, but from what I've seen/heard/read there is some controversy as to whether Norse runes were ever used for anything other than inscriptions.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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      #3
      Re: Regarding Runes

      There are also Anglo Saxon Runes - some of these were used for inscriptions while others made their way into the English language to represent sounds not covered by the Roman/Latin alphabet. There are more Anglo-Saxon runes than in say, the Elder Futhark. And it's important to mention that the Runic poems (of which there are several) never specifically deal with the Elder Futhark which has to then 'borrow' meanings from the range of Rune poems. Personally I use the runes a lot - especially the anglo-saxon ones.
      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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        #4
        Re: Regarding Runes

        Can you show us a link to the 'witches' runes? I suspect a lot of things have been given this title in recent years so they could be anything. I thought rune meant a rhyme in Scotland so I have always just thought a 'witches rune' was the chanting some do to raise energy (commonly a wiccan thing but some other types of witch will do it too). The Gardnerian Book of Shadows even has The Witches' Rune, which is indeed a poetic kind of chant.

        As 'witch' covers people from a wide variety of paths, I would be surprised if there is a rune set that is genuinely specific to witches and would suspect 'witches' is just an advertising gimmick to sell runes.
        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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          #5
          Re: Regarding Runes

          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
          I'm not an expert on this, but from what I've seen/heard/read there is some controversy as to whether Norse runes were ever used for anything other than inscriptions.
          This, IMO, too. And the witches runes sound like a gimmick.

          While just about anything, if given meaning, can be used as a tool, I think sometimes people forget that it's an alphabet, first and foremost. Just like Tarot started out as just a game. One that's had several variations ov time, and had some letters change their use entirely from location to location.

          I've run into s lot of people flipping out about wanting to put words in runes, and then being all worried they'll have some sort of additional meaning, etc. Fears like that seem to have a much better basis dealing with Asian writing systems. That's a whole different type of system.

          While I'm working on learning runes myself right now, I take it with a grain of salt. After all, how silly would I find it if, a thousand years from now, someone was using our Western Alphabet for similar purposes?
          Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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            #6
            Re: Regarding Runes

            There are several systems of Runes that you'll typically run into. First is the oldest, the creatively named Elder Futhark. The Elder Futhark was used to write in proto-Norse and proto-Germanic, which were the old languages preceding Old Norse and the Saxon dialects. The Elder Futhark branched off into two systems, the Younger Futhark, which was used in Scandinavia for Old Norse (in other words, the height of the Viking Age), and the Anglo-Saxon Futhorc, which was used to write in Old English, mostly. I think it was also used for Frisian as well, but nobody seems to care about the Frisian languages for some reason. So, during the times that these characters appear in the historical record, they were actively being used as living writing systems. In fact, you can find Norse graffiti all over Europe; they loved marking Runes all over everything, usually just saying "Ingvar was here" or relaying some ribald tale of a late-night encounter with a tavern maid.

            I, personally, think that there is a very strong case for them as ritual objects as well, both in the written record as well as the archaeological record. First is the story of the origin of the Runes, wherein Odin pins himself to Yggdrasil (presumably with Gungnir) for nine days, suffering intense agony until he discovers the Runes themselves, as well as magical spells associated with them. I'm not sure if there are other writing systems that have such an origin story, but surely this indicates some ritual significance of the alphabet. Rune-magic is a recurring device throughout the Eddaic literature, appearing a multitude of times in different stories. Runes are inscribed in times of need, as well as to lay curses on people. On top of all of this, you have the three Rune-poemsYou can see an example hereAlu inscription, which appears absolutely everywhere and has no solid meaning in the Norse languages, and thus is thought to be a charm word. Another example is the Lindholm Amulet, the second line of which is basically gibberish if you attempt to read it as a language (transliteration would be aaaaaaaazzznnn-b-muttt:alu: ) and has the "alu" charm word tacked on the end to boot.

            Even with all of this, however, there is no strong historical precedent of using them in the manner that modern practitioners seem to enjoy employing them, in fortune-telling and the like. That seems to have cropped up a few decades ago, and if you were to go back in time and perform that sort of thing, the Norse would likely have no idea what you were trying to accomplish by throwing the little bits of wood around. The same goes for these "witch-Runes" you mentioned; probably a gimmick with no significant grounding in the historical systems or usages.
            "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."
            -Thomas Jefferson

            Let a man never stir on his road a step
            without his weapons of war;
            for unsure is the knowing when the need shall arise
            of a spear on the way without.
            -

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              #7
              Re: Regarding Runes

              Thanks for that Tjoth....I just learned a bunch.
              Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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                #8
                Re: Regarding Runes

                As someone that has used them (and actually likes them)...the witches runes are not Norse in origin at all. They are a purely modern construct, and there are several (commercially available) variations (and probably tons of personal ones). They are simply a representative symbol on a stone/piece of wood/etc.

                (I might add that in the modern definition of the word, "rune" can mean any letter from any alphabet that is believed to have magical powers, and is not limited to the Norse/Germanic runes)

                Some examples:


                They are pretty durn easy to make one's self...including the making up your own runes. A friend of mine did something similar, but used the major arcana to make a symbol for each card and inscribed them in clay...she pretty much casts them like modern divination rune reading, but interprets them off of the meaning of the major arcana cards.
                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                sigpic

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                  #9
                  Re: Regarding Runes

                  Originally posted by thalassa View Post

                  They are pretty durn easy to make one's self...including the making up your own runes. A friend of mine did something similar, but used the major arcana to make a symbol for each card and inscribed them in clay...she pretty much casts them like modern divination rune reading, but interprets them off of the meaning of the major arcana cards.
                  I have my own rune system too. I mentioned it on the old forum I think. It is also an alphabet and I sometimes write my journal in it (my boyfriend is currently attempting to decode it. Even though I told him I can teach him, he wants to work it out himself). The method of casting the stones is pretty complicated as it is based on polarity and orientation, but it is very meaningful to me and so works really well. It's the only divination I currently use for myself. I might take a photo of the rune stones later to show here.

                  I thought about mentioning it in my post earlier but was worried about going off topic. Glad I got to sneak it in!

                  And yeah, I call them 'runes' and as I am a witch....
                  夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Regarding Runes

                    Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                    (I might add that in the modern definition of the word, "rune" can mean any letter from any alphabet that is believed to have magical powers, and is not limited to the Norse/Germanic runes)
                    Personally, I refer to Runes as Runes and other things (such as the objects in the picture) as glyphs, since "glyph" sort of implies a nonlinguistic symbol, or at least a linguistic symbol whose meaning is unknown.
                    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."
                    -Thomas Jefferson

                    Let a man never stir on his road a step
                    without his weapons of war;
                    for unsure is the knowing when the need shall arise
                    of a spear on the way without.
                    -

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Regarding Runes

                      Originally posted by Thjoth View Post
                      Personally, I refer to Runes as Runes and other things (such as the objects in the picture) as glyphs, since "glyph" sort of implies a nonlinguistic symbol, or at least a linguistic symbol whose meaning is unknown.
                      Yes, well said!

                      ---------- Post added at 03:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:25 PM ----------

                      Originally posted by Thjoth View Post
                      and the Anglo-Saxon Futhorc, which was used to write in Old English, mostly.
                      It's a controversial point - some scholars claim that linguistically the Anglo-Saxon rune poem is the oldest. The probloem of course is that all we have left is a copy, and that always presents a few problems. The Anglo-Saxon runes were not used for writing Old English though. A couple of the runes did make their way briefly into English, to stand for sounds that were not covered by the Roman/Latin alphabet. But then again we start getting into problems with what is Anglo-Saxon, what is Old English and so on. I think Thjoth makes a very important point here in drawing our attention to the fact that 'the Runes' are not one, single entity.

                      I would strongly recomment Bernard Mees book on Runes for serious research.

                      And on a lighter note, did you know that there is such a thing as 'fart runes'?
                      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                        #12
                        Re: Regarding Runes

                        Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post

                        And on a lighter note, did you know that there is such a thing as 'fart runes'?
                        Oh please tell me this is what it sounds like, and not just from the same root word as German 'fahren' or something. I only just heard the expression 'air biscuit' for the first time and my sides were aching from laughter.. thus is the quality of my humour!
                        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Regarding Runes

                          Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post

                          And on a lighter note, did you know that there is such a thing as 'fart runes'?
                          Are you talking about the 17th century Icelandic witch trial? I read about that once, and it cracked me up...
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                          sigpic

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                            #14
                            Re: Regarding Runes

                            Now I'm curious, too...
                            Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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                              #15
                              Re: Regarding Runes

                              There was actually a charm that was supposed to plague the victim’s belly with ‘crapulence and wind’ and ‘great flatulence’ so that ‘farting may never stop, neither by day nor by night.’

                              And no, I haven’t made it up… you can find fart runes in the Icelandic grimoir, called Galdrabok, and at Bergen in Norway a medieval rune stick was found with runic fart charm on it. It reads:
                              Sit down and interpret the runes; rise up and fart!

                              www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                              Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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