Honoring Ancestors

[Dez]

This is a concept that's been pulling at me a lot lately, and I was wondering if anyone here has built an ancestor shrine or contacted their ancestors while meditating? Can it help with feelings of disconnection from one's heritage and roots?

Are there other similar things that can be done, not just at Samhain, but year round?

Any reputable online sources you've run into?

How do you deal with the idea that most of your more recent generations might not be too happy about your current path?

[ConnollyCelt]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

Lately I've been learning about my ancestors, as I need to know them before I honour them. When I do know them and I feel akin to particular members I think I will put a picture of them or another memento in my shrine rather than make a new one. One interesting thing I have learned is that my great grandfather was very similar to myself politically, and he had a similar personality to me. It has certainly got me thinking about the whole reincarnation in the family...

And as for whether they would approve of your path or not, they lived in a different time. Paganism is becoming more acceptable nowadays, but even sixty years ago it would have been seen as unacceptable.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

I have performed a ceremony in which I invoked the spirits of those who had struggled against forceful conversion of any kind. I included my ancestors, and those of everyone present, and offered them a libation, so that we could drink to the freedom of the modern age. I also made an offering to Veles in the underworld, and asked him to translate/ spread the word.

As far as just honoring all of my ancestors though, I haven't done that. I think I would single out specific groups of spirits, partially because many of them would not be pagan. Then again, since many of them are dead, I would think they no longer see my Gods as "false" anymore.

[Caelia]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

Are you looking for a particular path? If not, I can point you to a few.

[thalassa]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

I'm going to put my own two cents in on the last part (and its guaranteed to insulting to someone or other I think)...because its a question with an answer close to the reason that I don't choose to honor* my ancestors as part of my path (which doesn't mean that there aren't times where it isn't appropriate for a general sort of remembrance of my ancestors or those persons of my family that are deceased that I was close to (or would have liked to be) or even other people that I am completely and utterly not related to me)...

*by honor, I mean venerate, etc in a way that incorporates them into worship vs. honor as in thinking "hey there family tree, thanks for sprouting me" on a regular basis...basically, the difference between honor being used as a normal verb vs an abstract verb (sorry, I was looking up grammar stuff yesterday)

I think the choice (both why and how) to incorporate honoring one's ancestors into one's traditions (unless you have decided to follow a tradition which has that set up already) depends on two things--one's view of the afterlife and one's view of ancestry.

In many cultures a lot of the relationship between between the living and the dead is to keep them with a positive enough view of the living that they will help out the family from the afterlife. I don't consider the dead as having a tangible, hands-on sort of role in the world of the living...and because of that, I don't think that honoring one's ancestors in a tangible, hands-on sort of way has any purpose beyond the surface ritual (the world view of someone else might differ, and then there *would* be a purpose to have a relationship with one's ancestors, and I have no beef with that). But either way, depending on what happens in the afterlife (if there is one), either people are able to change and grow and become more enlightened, or not. Which comes to your dilemma--if yes, I would think that differences in religion, sexuality, etc wouldn't matter to them...but if no, and it does,(IMO) there isn't much purpose in veneration of someone that either doesn't give two figs about you or isn't in a position to know the difference (like some sort of post-death soul collective). If there isn't a tangible purpose in venerating one's ancestors (and this is where my pragmatism comes in), then the only reasons (that I can think of) to honor one's ancestors is either to make them feel good or to make you feel good (or a bit of both). I don't have enough of an opinion on the afterlife to know if they actually feel good or not, but I know that it doesn't change my state of being in a way that can't be achieved otherwise or that is important enough to matter...probably because of my interpretation and opinion as to the meaninglessness of ancestry anyhow. And, to be honest, there is part of me that knows my grammy would be pissed as hell at getting paged during her eternal bridge game...if all the twigs on my family tree are hanging out in The Afterlife^TM, I'm pretty sure they have something better to do that wait for my call--I sure as heck wouldn't wanted to be interrupted from my eternal reward every five minutes to come deal with some minor dilemma of my descendants.

Which comes down to the idea of ancestors anyhow... I don't really see the point in honoring someone that I don't know and don't know anything about for their ability to bump uglies and stumble through parenthood. For all I know, my great-great-great grandfather and his brother could have been philandering wife-beaters and child molesters in addition to Union soldiers. I see a purpose in remembering their service and thanking them for it (which I also do if I'm at a cemetery and pass an old soldier's grave, even if we aren't related)--I don't see a purpose in (and can't conscience) honoring them as individuals (in the off chance that they were complete and utter jerks), or their lives (which could have been full of gambling away the bill money and drinking for all I know) because I don't know enough to know if they are worth honoring as individuals or honoring their lives (beyond the accident of genetics and timing that links us). Realistically (and statistically), they were probably decent men in the manner of their time--and for the era, I don't see much to honor (remembrance and thankfulness on the other hand is something else). Since I can't in good conscience incorporate them as individuals into a part of my life, I'm content to do it in a sort of general way when I feel the need...and as far as that goes, I'm pretty global in how I perceive ancestry (probably due to that biology thing). I don't need ancestry to be connected to my roots--knowing (however cool) doesn't make the difference, because they are not defining for me, if that makes sense. Knowing that my direct lineage can be traced back to Ireland, Scotland, America and Africa, doesn't make me have any urge to idolize my pre-Christian forefathers and foremothers (and too often this is what I see/perceive when I see ancestor veneration in modern Paganism)--I'm a historical reenactor and my minor (three classes shy of a second double major) leaves me with no doubt that there isn't anything to idolize in history). IMO, we are one big not-so-happy human family. What makes someone worthy of remembrance and thankfulness has less to do with genetic similarity than it does inspiration. I am more likely to remember and thank (and even use ritual to do so) Wangiri Maathai as I am my great-grandmother that died when I was two (and was reportedly an old witch--and by witch, I mean bitch).

Normally I'd leave this here (or I would have left the topic all together, since I know its a contentious one)...but we've know each other for a longish time...what I would think about, were I you, was how much of this is a desire to have an "okay" for the choices you've made, or to find that "okay" by skipping over a few generations, because you aren't going to get it from your relatives that are currently living. Or, it it is about just genuinely wanting to incorporate your ancestors into your practices, that's cool too...either way go for it*...but I think its important for you to know your motivation first--if you've already thought about this, or whatever, I apologize for bringing it up!

*the mechanics, I would think, are pretty similar to that of communicating with deities or other entities, making a shrine/altar for them, etc.

[Wednesday]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

I think the choice (both why and how) to incorporate honoring one's ancestors into one's traditions (unless you have decided to follow a tradition which has that set up already) depends on two things--one's view of the afterlife and one's view of ancestry.

Hiya. I registered awhile ago and never really posted... Anyway, using your post as a jumping off point for my own POV, and not to debate/attack your POV in any way.

In many cultures a lot of the relationship between between the living and the dead is to keep them with a positive enough view of the living that they will help out the family from the afterlife. I don't consider the dead as having a tangible, hands-on sort of role in the world of the living...and because of that, I don't think that honoring one's ancestors in a tangible, hands-on sort of way has any purpose beyond the surface ritual (the world view of someone else might differ, and then there *would* be a purpose to have a relationship with one's ancestors, and I have no beef with that).

I honor my ancestors frequently as a heathen. It really wasn't until Christianity that the division between the dead and the living occured in N.E., when previously both states of being existed side by side with mutual benefit. Eventually the monks took over the duty of honoring the dead in the home, claiming spiritual authority, and then it was essentially done away with altogether. Not entirely, though, as we still leaves flowers and gifts on the grave, we still appeal to our deceased loved ones, we still see signs and messages from beyond. I'm of the belief that the only difference is that we have forgotten the language of the dead, and not that they are lost to us.

But either way, depending on what happens in the afterlife (if there is one), either people are able to change and grow and become more enlightened, or not. Which comes to your dilemma--if yes, I would think that differences in religion, sexuality, etc wouldn't matter to them...but if no, and it does,(IMO) there isn't much purpose in veneration of someone that either doesn't give two figs about you or isn't in a position to know the difference (like some sort of post-death soul collective).

I don't feel that the dead change their personalities after death. There's plenty of accounts of asshats dying who then came back to terrorize people as asshatty as ever, until their corpses were ultimately and finally dealt with. I think death transcends religion, the ancestors no longer beholden to the mores and cultures from which they came from. We also see this in accounts of the gods appealing to the dead for answers and assistance. In my perspective, the gods deal with the world here and now, while death is a realm outside of those boundaries and can now become part of that which influences us as well. So, Christianity may have been important to Aunt Mildred in life, but in death, she's beyond the constraints of a religion and can afford to sympathize with your position from where ever her heaven may be.

If there isn't a tangible purpose in venerating one's ancestors (and this is where my pragmatism comes in), then the only reasons (that I can think of) to honor one's ancestors is either to make them feel good or to make you feel good (or a bit of both).

The way it's set up in many cultures is that it's the living whom actually elevate the dead into the status of "ancestor" through honoring them. Your father dies but he isn't an ancestor in your life time. You're continued praise of his deeds, the worth and honor that you would give to him, and teach your children to give him, will elevate him into that vaque "Ancestor" role for your children, who may not have known him well. It generally takes two generations before a beloved family member becomes an ancestor. And we do this so that they won't become the forgotten dead. And, in turn, they don't forget you. This is why we tell stories about family. This is why I know that my great-great aunt did this and that, and why my Great-Great-x3 uncle did something else. These are my ancestors, these are the people worthy of honor because they so affected and influenced their families lives that they were remembered and their deeds carried on.

I don't have enough of an opinion on the afterlife to know if they actually feel good or not, but I know that it doesn't change my state of being in a way that can't be achieved otherwise or that is important enough to matter...probably because of my interpretation and opinion as to the meaninglessness of ancestry anyhow. And, to be honest, there is part of me that knows my grammy would be pissed as hell at getting paged during her eternal bridge game...if all the twigs on my family tree are hanging out in The Afterlife^TM, I'm pretty sure they have something better to do that wait for my call--I sure as heck wouldn't wanted to be interrupted from my eternal reward every five minutes to come deal with some minor dilemma of my descendants.

Yes, I would find that annoying as well. And my form of ancestor worship has NO connection to the types of petty and meaningless requests that can be seen in some types of spellwork or self-helpy paths. I generally don't honor them with any request in place. It's a gift, a recognition, a rememberance. If Iran and Isreal decide to stop playing cat'n'mouse and the US gets involved and somehow my city gets nuked, I would hope that higher powers would make some affort to protect the family that honors and loves them...but I don't expect their help with my football team winning the superbowl. I also hope that with the love I show them, they save me a seat in the great beyond.

Which comes down to the idea of ancestors anyhow... I don't really see the point in honoring someone that I don't know and don't know anything about for their ability to bump uglies and stumble through parenthood. For all I know, my great-great-great grandfather and his brother could have been philandering wife-beaters and child molesters in addition to Union soldiers.

This is why the role of the living to guide the dead into Ancestorhood is so important. We decide who is worth remembering, we decide who gets to join the "hall" of the remembered dead. Who needs a hell when your own family can disown you for eternity? Judgement doesn't come from some god in the sky or some bstract karma, it comes from those who were affected by your evils and who will get the final say of your worth.

I see a purpose in remembering their service and thanking them for it (which I also do if I'm at a cemetery and pass an old soldier's grave, even if we aren't related)--I don't see a purpose in (and can't conscience) honoring them as individuals (in the off chance that they were complete and utter jerks), or their lives (which could have been full of gambling away the bill money and drinking for all I know) because I don't know enough to know if they are worth honoring as individuals or honoring their lives (beyond the accident of genetics and timing that links us).

Eventually the names of the honored dead are forgotten. Several generations pass and we forget the people from the 13th century. And that's fine for them to just be generic ancestors now. They make way for the newly dead to have their stories told, their name spoken, their gifts received. But they could only become ancestors if they were worth it in the first place. The newly dead will eventually be generic as well, but that can't be anything if you don't remember them and pass on their stories.

[Dez]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

Ok, took me a couple of crazy days to get back here, so this will be a rather big post(sorry about that). I'm really appreciating everyone's input, though.

Lately I've been learning about my ancestors, as I need to know them before I honour them. When I do know them and I feel akin to particular members I think I will put a picture of them or another memento in my shrine rather than make a new one. One interesting thing I have learned is that my great grandfather was very similar to myself politically, and he had a similar personality to me. It has certainly got me thinking about the whole reincarnation in the family...

Now, that's something I hadn't considered at all. I don't normally think about reincarnation, but I've noticed certain personality types, with probably some sort of genetic factor in the mix, that come back around over and over in my family. Lessons about impulsivity issues, in particular...

And as for whether they would approve of your path or not, they lived in a different time. Paganism is becoming more acceptable nowadays, but even sixty years ago it would have been seen as unacceptable.

True, but especially for those who have a very devout Christian background, it can raise some issues. The past 5 or so generations of my family were devout Latter-Day Saints, for example. Some of them gave up everything they had, including family ties, to join the Mormon church, leave Europe, and come to America. Some died for what they believed. Others, like my great, great grandfather, were unable to return to U.S. soil from Mexico because he was a practicing polygamist.

I still have a great deal of respect for these people. I have copies of pictures of them, and tell my children stores about the things they did. As I continue learning about heathen concepts (like those Wednesday mentions above), I have a strong desire to combine that respect and devotion with the creation of an ancestor shrine. I worry, though, that even though such a gesture would be appreciated by my older ancestors, that it would not be appreciated or misinterpreted by those more recently departed, including my much beloved and more recently departed devout grandmother, who would have had an aneurism in this life over my religious choices. That is, assuming that there is anything after this life in the first place, etc, etc.

I have performed a ceremony in which I invoked the spirits of those who had struggled against forceful conversion of any kind. I included my ancestors, and those of everyone present, and offered them a libation, so that we could drink to the freedom of the modern age. I also made an offering to Veles in the underworld, and asked him to translate/ spread the word

That's a very positive way of looking at it, Yazichestvo. In reference to those older ancestors, I like that idea very much, and can see why it would be appreciated, particularly the idea of celebrating the religious freedom of our modern age.

Are you looking for a particular path? If not, I can point you to a few.

I am personally researching primarily heathen resources as I sort my way through this, however, ancestor veneration is still a living aspect of many religions(Shinto, Santeria, many flavors of Buddhism, etc.) as well as many modern pagan paths, and so I thought that this conversation would be more interesting and valuable if I kept it open to discussing practices of any faith.

I'm going to put my own two cents in on the last part (and its guaranteed to insulting to someone or other I think)...because its a question with an answer close to the reason that I don't choose to honor* my ancestors as part of my path (which doesn't mean that there aren't times where it isn't appropriate for a general sort of remembrance of my ancestors or those persons of my family that are deceased that I was close to (or would have liked to be) or even other people that I am completely and utterly not related to me)... [/SIZE]

I think the choice (both why and how) to incorporate honoring one's ancestors into one's traditions (unless you have decided to follow a tradition which has that set up already) depends on two things--one's view of the afterlife and one's view of ancestry.

Thal, thanks for making the post that you did. It's a bit of a touchy subject, especially since it's one of those topics that both being overly inclusive *or* overly exclusive can really lead to arguments, make people feel like someone is saying the particular way they practice isn't *right*, etc.

I hope that what I wrote above gives a bit more on why I, personally, am asking for feedback about this right now. There is a concept that seems to have been built into the heathen worldview (including an idea of an individual's luck and honor being personified as a spirit being of the opposite gender, being capable of being lent, or passed on to later generations--part of why many infants were named after deceased ancestors, but not living ones, to attract their "Hamingja", based on research I've been doing elsewhere). That doesn't necessarily translate to modern ideas, though, and I thought it would be interesting to open this up for discussion. Given your path, I can see completely why you would not choose to do something like this, and don't find it offensive in any way.

In many cultures a lot of the relationship between between the living and the dead is to keep them with a positive enough view of the living that they will help out the family from the afterlife. I don't consider the dead as having a tangible, hands-on sort of role in the world of the living...

That ties right in with my caveats above.

I don't see a reason why one would constantly call on ancestors, though, anymore then one would call on Gods when you couldn't find your other shoe. That sort of behavior personally drives me bananas, and feels disrespectful, IMO. I don't see either, any way an ancestor would be *forced* to help. If there is an afterlife, wouldn't they be perfectly capable of saying, "no, go away"? As is, it makes more sense to me that a select handful of the departed, for one reason or another, would take a personal interest in the affairs of a descendent. I have had experiences that, although they still leave me highly credulous, have led me to believe that the grandmother mentioned, due to our closeness when I was a child, may have some similar sort of interest in me. At this risk of being labeled "off", I often feel her "close", or will sometimes smell scents I associate with her for no obvious reason. I saw her while in labor with my daughter, when things started to go horribly wrong and I was terrified. If it's not my brain making up things, then for whatever reason, she still checks in on me. Ultimately, I have no idea which.

Which comes down to the idea of ancestors anyhow... I don't really see the point in honoring someone that I don't know and don't know anything about for their ability to bump uglies and stumble through parenthood. For all I know, my great-great-great grandfather and his brother could have been philandering wife-beaters and child molesters in addition to Union soldiers. ...

Very valid points...I have ancestors of my own that were hardly inspired human beings. As for honoring Wangiri Maathai...why not? I don't see that as any less strange then a bunch of the stuff we do.

Reading through that, I think there's a way you might see this better. Past a certain number of generations, we honestly have no idea who the crap our ancestors are. Even the generations we *do* have, who's to say the people on paper where the actual parents, particularly when it comes to fathers(although I've known people who discovered their much "older sister" was actually their mother). Ultimately, though, past the respect for a handful of people in living memory, when we talk about "ancestors", especially as a source for getting in touch with ancient wisdom, how is that any different from the archetype of the ancient wise one? The old man or woman in fairytales one meets on the side of the road? Odin, in his wide gray hat checking on the hospitality of man?

I personally wonder whether it ultimately taps into something bigger, something much more similar to the great stories. The reason why I've sometimes called the gods the "oldest ancestors" when discussing concepts of them on here. I think it is a very Jungian thing at that point.

Normally I'd leave this here (or I would have left the topic all together, since I know its a contentious one)...but we've know each other for a longish time...what I would think about, were I you, was how much of this is a desire to have an "okay" for the choices you've made, or to find that "okay" by skipping over a few generations, because you aren't going to get it from your relatives that are currently living...

That, out of anything you wrote, Thal, was honestly a little bit of an ouch, simply based on the implication that I might be thinking about this simply for a pat on the back. I understand why you said it, though, and I hope reading the above clarifies a lot of that.

Wednesday, hi there

I have a bunch of stuff I want to say to you, too, but need to fix lunch for my family(if this weren't turning into a novella already!). I will return!

[thalassa]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

*hugs*

I didn't want it to be an ouch and I'm sorry it came out that way...and I didn't want to say it too seriously, so it probably came across too flippant and therefor snarky. I didn't mean that you weren't taking this seriously and on its own terms (and I can see that), I was just hoping that you weren't hoping to get more out of it than was realistic and be disappointed/hurt, if that makes sense? I don't really know how to explain what I meant without coming out as more of an ass here...

[thalassa]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

I worry, though, that even though such a gesture would be appreciated by my older ancestors, that it would not be appreciated or misinterpreted by those more recently departed, including my much beloved and more recently departed devout grandmother, who would have had an aneurism in this life over my religious choices. That is, assuming that there is anything after this life in the first place, etc, etc.

I don't think that is something you need to worry about...at least not in terms of being insensitive about it (and I'm pretty sure there is a compromise there to be had, with a little creative thinking).

The most *wtf* thing I think I've heard on the subject was some guy at a gather talking about how he "honors his ancestors (and he was talking about someone only a couple generations back) as they would have been if they hadn't been forcibly converted to Christianity"...ummmmm....Great-Uncle Bob's "people" were converted in the 9th century...I think ignoring the 10-11 centuries in which they were practicing Christians is sort of disrespectful to Great-Uncle Bob. How much "honoring" is going on when one completely and utterly ignores what they *do* know about the person, and disregards it?

...somehow I don't think you need to worry about that being an issue!

As is, it makes more sense to me that a select handful of the departed, for one reason or another, would take a personal interest in the affairs of a descendent.

I think so too. Personally, I tend to be of the thinking that (if there is an afterlife), its sort of a short term thing--hang around for the people you really cared about (and see what they really think about you) and help them out (if they aren't bad-mouthing you too much), and then sort of fade away once your extra-credit work is done. If nothing else it makes more sense to me that my favorite grandfather would be hanging around looking in on the kids and trying his best to smooth out the wrinkles of life than my 6 x great-uncle Jamie mac Campbell (womanizing wastrel that he was reported to be) would be hanging around worried about the family honor (the family fortune maybe...if we had one).

Which is sort of where the "ancestor" thing breaks down for me. Too often when I've seen/heard/read people talking about honoring their ancestors, it seems to be some sort of idealistic ancient history sort of thing...rather than something like Wednesday's explanation (which makes sense to me, even if its not my thing).

Ultimately, though, past the respect for a handful of people in living memory, when we talk about "ancestors", especially as a source for getting in touch with ancient wisdom, how is that any different from the archetype of the ancient wise one? The old man or woman in fairytales one meets on the side of the road? Odin, in his wide gray hat checking on the hospitality of man?

TBH, to me, this seems like the most reasonable explanation I've heard yet, at least in terms of ancient ancestry. Its just that genetic proximity just doesn't mean that much to me (and the occasional foray into genetic superiority that I've encountered is even more disgusting)...

Although...this gives me an idea for a meditation in building an "archetypal ancestor" based on one's (perceived) ancestry (if nothing else, it just seems interesting)...

[Wednesday]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

The most *wtf* thing I think I've heard on the subject was some guy at a gather talking about how he "honors his ancestors (and he was talking about someone only a couple generations back) as they would have been if they hadn't been forcibly converted to Christianity"...ummmmm....Great-Uncle Bob's "people" were converted in the 9th century...I think ignoring the 10-11 centuries in which they were practicing Christians is sort of disrespectful to Great-Uncle Bob. How much "honoring" is going on when one completely and utterly ignores what they *do* know about the person, and disregards it?

And the point of honoring an ancestor is honoring them, not yourself. If you want to honor your Catholic Grandfather, go to mass on his birthday. Ask his gods to give him comfort etc, light a prayer candle. This isn't eclecticism, this is honoring what your loved one found sacred and creating space for that in your acknowledgements.

[Caelia]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

Here's my take on the issue since outside views are welcome.

In Ancient Egypt it was common to honor the ancestors in many holidays, including the New Year and Osirian holidays. My personal reason for following this is because if the afterlife is truly a continuation of this one you celebrate with your family. It also helps along with the mourning process from my experience. I also have taken the view recently that ConnolyCelt has about getting to know them. I feel in honoring them you are reminded where you came from because even if you never met them some traditions stem from them.

There's also the take of people like me who don't like cemetaries. At all. Dead things kinda creep me out. I've tried a lot of things to get over this and seemingly honoring my ancestors is the only effective thing.

[Abhainn]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

Ancestor to me means simply those who came before me, and that means from my parents all the way back. And I honor them (but don't worship them) as well as work with them as part of my path. I have a candle that I have set aside specifically for my ancestors as a beacon for them to join me if they wish. Usually it's because I have something to share with them - an offering or a memorial. And there is at least one that I have rejected because I knew what kind of person he was in life. And though I would like to believe that death and the afterlife allows some form of enlightenment, even if it's not total, I can't think about this person without thinking about the harm he caused for those I love and - through them - me. He might be hanging around the periphery, but he's not invited to the party. As for those I don't know, those who go back further than current family memory, that doesn't bother me. They might not even care about me. But I'm not going to ignore them just because I don't know them. No matter what, they somehow made my life possible, not because of biology but because of values and mistakes, etc.

[Dez]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

I honor my ancestors frequently as a heathen. It really wasn't until Christianity that the division between the dead and the living occured in N.E., when previously both states of being existed side by side with mutual benefit. Eventually the monks took over the duty of honoring the dead in the home, claiming spiritual authority, and then it was essentially done away with altogether. Not entirely, though, as we still leaves flowers and gifts on the grave, we still appeal to our deceased loved ones, we still see signs and messages from beyond. I'm of the belief that the only difference is that we have forgotten the language of the dead, and not that they are lost to us.

My perspective on this is just a little bit different, and so it was interesting for me to consider what you said about the role of dealing with the dead being relegated to part of what priests did. In the belief system I grew up in, genealogy is highly esteemed and ritualized. The ultimate goal of many (particularly women) upon retirement is to go to the Family History Archives in Salt Lake City, Utah, and search for the names and pertinent dates of dead ancestors. After that, those names are taken to a temple, and various ordinances are performed for them(baptism, initiation into LDS ordinances, etc.). A great deal of cultural support and respect is given to those who devote years to this, as well as to those who can trace their linage(like mine through my mother) to early members of the church. As you might imagine, this leaves me with a very different cultural frame of reference.

I'm going to need to think about the suggestion you made lower, though. In theory, I love the idea of honoring an ancestor by doing something they valued...in practice, I'm at a place in life where I'd rather shut my hand in a door then set foot in an LDS chapel again. Ever.

The way it's set up in many cultures is that it's the living whom actually elevate the dead into the status of "ancestor" through honoring them. Your father dies but he isn't an ancestor in your life time. You're continued praise of his deeds, the worth and honor that you would give to him, and teach your children to give him, will elevate him into that vaque "Ancestor" role for your children, who may not have known him well...

I hadn't thought about this, either...that is definitely something to chew on.

*hugs*

I didn't want it to be an ouch and I'm sorry it came out that way...and I didn't want to say it too seriously, so it probably came across too flippant and therefor snarky. I didn't mean that you weren't taking this seriously and on its own terms (and I can see that), I was just hoping that you weren't hoping to get more out of it than was realistic and be disappointed/hurt, if that makes sense? I don't really know how to explain what I meant without coming out as more of an ass here...

Hun, we're good...we've known each other for long enough I figured I was probably misinterpreting, which is why I figured the best course of action was to explain how it came across to me. You clarified, and it makes much more sense now...once again, the challenge with so much discussion with no facial and body language cues.

*hugs*

I don't think that is something you need to worry about...at least not in terms of being insensitive about it (and I'm pretty sure there is a compromise there to be had, with a little creative thinking).

The most *wtf* thing I think I've heard on the subject was some guy at a gather talking about how he "honors his ancestors (and he was talking about someone only a couple generations back) as they would have been if they hadn't been forcibly converted to Christianity"...

Uh...wow. That one's a serious WTF for me, too. I hope there's a compromise out there, too(thanks for saying that). If nothing else, this is certainly generating some ideas I didn't have before.

If nothing else it makes more sense to me that my favorite grandfather would be hanging around looking in on the kids and trying his best to smooth out the wrinkles of life than my 6 x great-uncle Jamie mac Campbell (womanizing wastrel that he was reported to be) would be hanging around worried about the family honor (the family fortune maybe...if we had one).

Ok, here's an idea I want to throw out for consideration, particularly in the direction of you and Wednesday, Thal; what would someone do if in living memory or the family story collection there was an ancestor that seemed particularly unhappy in life, that they wished things to be better for in the next life? Would including that ancestor be an act of love and kindness, or if that person was particularly poisonous in life, would it be better to keep their energy and choices as far away from your life as possible?

In my particular tree, a pair of women come to mind--mother in law and daughter in law. The MIL blamed her DIL for the death of her only son, even though the latter was now a widow with five small children during the worst of the Great Depression. Because of this, she used her influence to withhold church assistance from the DIL, and her children were raised in poverty, cutting across the lawn of their grandmother's house sometimes on the way through the neighborhood without even knowing they were related. The DIL became a very clingy, fearful woman, anxious about her children even when they reached adulthood, and bitter that the circumstances of her life had never let her live her dream of using her amazing singing voice to become a concert vocalist.

The DIL was my great-grandmother, and some of her small possessions were given to me as a gift by my grandfather when I was a young teenager. He rarely gave anyone *anything*, but said that out of any of his grandchildren, I looked the most like her.

So there you go...two very sad, complicated women. Neither one an example of goodness, per-say, but both influenced heavily by their difficult conditions. What would you do?

Although...this gives me an idea for a meditation in building an "archetypal ancestor" based on one's (perceived) ancestry (if nothing else, it just seems interesting)...

If you come up with something like that, I'd be very interested in hearing about it. Based on what I'm seeing, I really do think at this point that the issue breaks down into two groups being honored as one; the recent dead, who's memories are being kept alive, and that sort of archetype.

Here's my take on the issue since outside views are welcome.

In Ancient Egypt it was common to honor the ancestors in many holidays, including the New Year and Osirian holidays. My personal reason for following this is because if the afterlife is truly a continuation of this one you celebrate with your family. It also helps along with the mourning process from my experience. I also have taken the view recently that ConnolyCelt has about getting to know them. I feel in honoring them you are reminded where you came from because even if you never met them some traditions stem from them.

There's also the take of people like me who don't like cemetaries. At all. Dead things kinda creep me out. I've tried a lot of things to get over this and seemingly honoring my ancestors is the only effective thing.

I hadn't thought of it as a way to help with the mourning process, Caelia...that makes a LOT of sense. Our modern culture tends to have the service and then sort of consider it over and done with. Mourning takes so much longer then that, though...to be able to have a way to talk about those memories--laugh, mourn, tell stories--that is ingrained into the yearly cycle would be a very healthy thing, IMO.

I can understand why it would be a better way to deal with death for many, as well.

[Wednesday]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

Dez, I don't think its my place to tell you how to view your ancestors or who to venerate. I will say, though, that it sounds like a family saga-- that its an instance where we can see the lessons of myth reflected on the human stage and because of that those women play a valuable role. As a mother you'll share that story with your children, and you'll add your own opinions on the choices made, on the character of those involved, on the impact feuds have on families even generations later. It's an oppurtunity to share your outlook on one's responsibility to their descendants, living family, and even how deeds are what's remembered. Let me know how you decide to reconcile those two women in your life, you've got me curious now.

If I remember correctly, there's some old Norse wives tales that a child strongly resembling a deceased family member carries on that person's hamingja (I think). Don't know if that's of any interest to you.

[Dez]

Re: Honoring Ancestors

I'll let you know if I figure something out, Wednesday, and no, I hadn't thought about it Quite that way before. Sotries have always been very important to me, though...it makes a lot of sense to me to find lessons in the triumphs and struggles of those who came before us.

I've only just been getting into concepts like hamingja, and hadn't run into ideas about it being tied to resemblance. I'll need to look into that further.