Schools and Standardized testing

[Gwen]

[quote author=thalassa link=topic=446.msg5883#msg5883 date=1287789403]

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

(split from Things to make you think)
[/quote]

I'd believe it. I know some of the smartest people I know didn't do well at all til they hit college and had more freedom over their classes. Some of them didn't go to college.

I also know that arts programs are chronically the first targets of school funding cuts.

[Ophidia]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=thalassa link=topic=446.msg5883#msg5883 date=1287789403]

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

[/quote]

I'd have to agree - I think public schools are mostly in place to provide childcare and to prep people for working 8-to-5, M-F, with scheduled breaks and vacations for the rest of their lives.

[Hoho]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

I've a feeling we in America will be heading down the path of the East Asian countries. Yeah, every single person tests great, and now consequently, no one can get a job because they have to compete with literally every other person, never mind the fact that no one will be able to apply the knowledge. You 'know' stuff, can test great, but can't DO anything.

[thalassa]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=Hoho link=topic=446.msg6866#msg6866 date=1288077915]
I've a feeling we in America will be heading down the path of the East Asian countries. Yeah, every single person tests great, and now consequently, no one can get a job because they have to compete with literally every other person, never mind the fact that no one will be able to apply the knowledge. You 'know' stuff, can test great, but can't DO anything.
[/quote]

...except we don't even test great here

[Ophidia]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=thalassa link=topic=446.msg6881#msg6881 date=1288080100]
...except we don't even test great here
[/quote]

I know part of my problem with most 'standardized' tests, like the California Achievement Test (CAT) that I loathed all through grade-school is that there is no room for gray. Some answers aren't black/white, yes/no. The way questions are worded leaves room for a thinker to add nuance and perspective, but the answers don't have any leeway to them.

I remember taking an IQ test once when I was seeing a psychologist for 'anger management' when I was a kid. She held up a picture of a cow, a perfectly normal cow, & asked me what was wrong with the picture. Everything looked in place - horns, eyes, nostrils, ears, legs, spots, udder, tail... I stared at that thing for almost 10 minutes & could see nothing. Finally, the therapist said, "cows have cloven hooves" & was totally flabbergasted when I told her, in detail, why the position of the drawn cow (it was broadside to the viewer, not 3/4 or head-on) and the fact that it was standing in grass wouldn't let me see that the hooves were solid instead of cloven. A standardized A/B/C/D type test wouldn't have cared what my perspective was, it would have only cared if I'd picked 'None of the Above' from a list of possible answers about what was wrong with the cow.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

There are a lot of problems with public education, there's no doubt about that - and in some places public education really stinks (I would never put my kid into a Detroit public school, not after having done my student teaching there).

I also hate the standardized test that are so popular in so many states.

But, if you are going to look at creativity killers, before looking at the schools, you might want to check out the TV, the music industry, video/computer game industry, the clothing industry, cosmetics industry, etc., etc. - all those "industries" which have a vested interest in substituting THEIR image of reality for the one that a person would develop on his/her own, and in selling mass quantities of identical products to people who are under the illusion that they are "expressing themselves" when they buy them.

These are things that kids actually pay attention to.

Me - the teacher, the representative of American education? They ignore as completely as is possible.

(I am now done being cranky. I had a bad morning. Please don't stare.)

[Gwen]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

As far as tests go, many members of my extended family are involved with public schools, and decry the degree to which teachers are teaching not with the goal of learning but rather of being able to pass standardized tests. They see an increasing and dangerous trend brought on by shifts in statewide systems--and enforced such that teachers pretty much have to squeeze in "real" learning around making sure kids can do the rote memorization.

'Course, I also think Corbin's right that our self-expression culture takes the form of consumerism rather than true innovation.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=Gwen link=topic=446.msg7040#msg7040 date=1288120764]
As far as tests go, many members of my extended family are involved with public schools, and decry the degree to which teachers are teaching not with the goal of learning but rather of being able to pass standardized tests. They see an increasing and dangerous trend brought on by shifts in statewide systems--and enforced such that teachers pretty much have to squeeze in "real" learning around making sure kids can do the rote memorization.[/quote]

Yeah - they're terrible. I don't know any teachers who actually think they're a good thing - they force teachers to teach so much so quickly that they and the kids can only skim over the surface of things (five miles wide, a quarter inch deep), they force teachers to teach subjects at a younger age than the kids are developmentally ready for (who is making these tests up? Not teachers, and not developmental psychologists...), and they are used as tools by the government in order to manipulate and control schools (hmmm... what's up with that? Schools are supposed to be under local control...).

[DanieMarie]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

I'm not a fan for a large number of reasons.

1) My mom is a teacher, and she's sort of gone from the late 80s until now, and she feels that they get in the way of teaching properly and she can't focus on the skills and talents of individual kids as well when she has to spend so much time prepping them for some stupid test.
2) I went to school during what I feel was a real golden age for BC education. We churned out a lot of highly creative, successful people. We only had standardized tests every few years, and the grades weren't so highly important, but rather it was something to measure individual progress. I remember my grade 3 reading test, and I did really "well" because I answered OUTSIDE the box, not inside it, and was able to approach the questions in an interesting way. I also was a gifted child and never fit in well "inside" the box, and i think if you focus too much on that sort of thing you really encourage mediocrity.
In high school I had some great teachers, who did a lot of other amazing things (like travel the world) before becoming teachers. They really encouraged us to think for ourselves. Our grade 12 government exams (which were the only ones that actually counted for anything) were in the subjects of our choice except English 12. I got 93% on that exam and my main essay (which could actually be an essay or short story on the topic of choice) was a story based on a road trip I did when I was 16. Even to this day, that sense of thinking for myself has served me well....in all my courses to date, I've done best in the ones where I worked with my own opinions backed by research, rather than just rehashing stuff other people have said. I don't really think you can capture that sort of skill with an average standardized test.
3) Having lived for a while in the adult world, academics themselves are just a small set of important skills that are necessary to do well. I'd say that test scores have even less to do with that. When I start my label and hire people, I don't really give a rat's ass how they did in university let alone school. I want to know that my sales team is good with people, that my creative team has a good portfolio (AKA body of ACTUAL work), and that my financial people are experienced. It helps if they've gone to uni because it seems to function as a filter, but I really don't care that much what people studied or how they did, as long as they have experience and substance and can actually prove themselves in a REAL work environment (which I've seen so many graduates fail to ACTUALLY do).

[Ophidia]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=Gwen link=topic=514.msg7040#msg7040 date=1288120764]
As far as tests go, many members of my extended family are involved with public schools, and decry the degree to which teachers are teaching not with the goal of learning but rather of being able to pass standardized tests. [/quote]

This carried over a lot for me even when I went through getting my Associates Degree. I went to a community college, and did all but two of my classes online. You'd think that would allow for more flexibility within the classwork, but it really didn't. I spent 90% of my time drilling to pass multiple-choice & fill-in-the-blank quizzes & tests.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

It's not a new problem either. Charles Dickens recognised it back in the 19th century in his book Hard Times (well worth a read).

Real learning comes from a love of learning, not just learning to tick boxes. At least, thats been my experience.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=514.msg7171#msg7171 date=1288159863]
It's not a new problem either. Charles Dickens recognised it back in the 19th century in his book Hard Times (well worth a read).

Real learning comes from a love of learning, not just learning to tick boxes. At least, thats been my experience.
[/quote]

I love Charles! There is an awful lot he wrote about that is still very relevent today... Plus, he's fun to read.

People tend to confuse trivia with knowledge. Trivia is a lot easier to teach and, more importantly, to test.

Unfortunately, it's mostly useless.

[thalassa]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=514.msg7201#msg7201 date=1288174579]
People tend to confuse trivia with knowledge. Trivia is a lot easier to teach and, more importantly, to test.

Unfortunately, it's mostly useless.
[/quote]

I don't know about that entirely...

Really trivia, those trifling little details, have a way of building up...particularly in the field of say, science. Why would it matter in a classroom that some second or third grader knows the distinction of what a is predator vs prey, and examples of such? Because eventually that predator-prey interaction becomes an essential part of any discussion of energy transfer, population cycling, and coevolution. If you never learn about the petty details of what a gas, a liquid and a solid are early enough to discussion about the nature of matter becomes much harder later on.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

[quote author=perzephone link=topic=514.msg6708#msg6708 date=1288038978]
I'd have to agree - I think public schools are mostly in place to provide childcare and to prep people for working 8-to-5, M-F, with scheduled breaks and vacations for the rest of their lives.
[/quote]

Well said.

I have to say, I used to hate when kids would say, "Why do I have to learn this?! It's not like I'm ever going to use it." When I was in school, I'd just roll my eyes at them and act like they were rednecks.

But I get it now. The reason I did that was just because I liked learning. I just enjoyed being in a classroom. When it came to math, I had to take all the remedial classes and I always complained about it - who needs HALF of what I learned even in Pre-Al? So far, I'm existing quite well without it. Well, the people that wanted to be biologists never needed Art Apprec, and the artists have no use for Calculus. If they WANT to learn it, that's great, but forcing kids to learn everything there is to know is pointless. Even if I needed to know more than some extremely basic algebra, I wouldn't remember it. If I needed to know chemistry or physics, I would know it, because I'd be USING it.

The information atrophies after a while.

Public school is a daycare and it keeps kids off the job market (yes, I know, more Ishmael, I can't help it).

(I'm bitter - I never really disliked public school all that much until I started seeing my little brother go through it. Witnessing how they teach him and grade him would enrage anyone.)

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Schools and Standardized testing

This is a real difference between US and UK English. In the UK, public school is reserved for places like Eton and Harrow where the really posh and wealthy people go. They have a common entrance exam. Private schools on the other hand rarely have an entrace exam, but if you have the money you can go there. They are not as elite as the public school system.

Everyone else mostly goes to the local comprehensive.