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The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

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    The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

    This was something touched on in another thread, and since I don't want to hi-jack that one, I thought we should start another here instead.

    Now I do realise that this subject can be a rather touchy one, so I am going to say from the outset that I will do my very best to keep this calm and polite. I am also going to set out here exactly what I am talking about, so there's less chance of misunderstanding, but if you want to bring in other suggestions I don't mind. However, the only thing I would ask is that if we're going to mention sources, we try and do this adequately... often what a scholar is supposed to have said and what they actually did say are two quite different things.

    I appreciate this may not go very far, but I thought it could be enlightening for all of us....

    So, to kick off:

    1. There is a theory that the Witch-Hunts/burning times were a response by the Christian Church to get rid of surviving pagan/heathen beliefs and practices.

    2. There is yet another theory that some sort of homogenous 'Witch Cult' (I'm not even trying to offer a definition of this here) survived from ancient times and that this was what most of those persecuted as witches were actually practising.

    Now I have one or two problems with theory 1, but this is because I think witch-hunts and the inquisition (sorry, but I cannot bring myself to use that bloody term Burning Times) were not JUST about paganism. Many of those persecuted were classed as heretics which is something else entirely.

    However, I personally do believe that SOME pre-Christian beliefs and practices were surprisingly resilient and persisted in some forms into modern times. I realise not everyone is going to agree with this... I've based my claim on things like some of the early Anglo-Saxon authors such as Bede and also on things like Church architecture (e.g. the Green Man etc.)

    Theory Number 2 is more extreme. I think it would be extremely difficult to prove, although I don't believe that witchcraft began in the 1950s with Gerald Gardiner.

    There are a few interesting claims (including one by Webb, an inspect of ancient monuments in WW2 who reckoned he had discovered a number of stone phalluses inside early medieval altars.) It's an astonishing claim, but one I have found almost impossible to track down.

    Webb apparently reckoned the government/authorities deliberately mislaid the evidence he had presented to them. It's easy to scoff - but what if he was right? It's possible - not provable, is all I'm prepared to say about that.

    I would be very interested to know what others here think.
    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

    #2
    Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

    I think the "witches" of the witch hunts of Northern Europe were most likely political scapegoats and sad victims of hysteria brought on by a fear of Christians that God was punishing them (the plague, wars, poverty, etc.) and that witches were bringing that punishment to fruition as agents of the devil. Most of the victims were probably Christians themselves who went to the pyres reciting aves and pater nosters with all their hearts.

    I think the victims of the Inquisition (almost exclusively a Southern European endeavor) were often heretical Christians that questioned Church authority or went too far in their piety such as the flagellants that were punished and censured by Church officials. Again, heretics but still Christian in my honest opinion. And of course...quite a few rebels who irritated rich and powerful Church leaders, I'm sure. It was often a political move such as putting Jews through an auto-da-fe to avoid paying debts.

    I do believe, however, strongly I might add that Pagan practice did survive throughout the Christian period. The countless harvest and spring festivals that existed all over Europe, the belief in protective charms, the selling of love potions and the practice of divination, etc. All of this flourished despite Christianity or took on the image of Christian practice. I had the pleasure of living in Brittany recently, one of the surviving Celtic "nations" and many Pagan images and folklore survive well. An example would be Ankou, the personification of death or the myth of the City of Ys.

    I also think that Christianity just could not root out all pagan beliefs. One of the most powerful examples of this is ancestor worship. Protestant Calvinist Christians, for example, often teach that the dead are "asleep in Christ" or "asleep in damnation" awaiting a final judgment. Catholicism teaches that souls head for hell or a stint in purgatory before Paradise. Well, the most devout Christians I know still talk about their family members as guiding spirits. How many Christians have you heard say something like "My grandmother watches over me" or "Dad was there with me the whole time in the operating room" or "I still talk to mom and tell her my troubles"? This is quite against traditional orthodox Christian theology but people still do it. Jesus says that in Heaven we won't even recognize our families, only see everyone as brother and sister with no differentiation. I see no Christians loving this idea, to be honest. They just couldn't root out that deep Pagan idea of ancestor worship and veneration.

    Those are just my opinions, of course. Witch-cult? Nah, not for me personally, but definitely a continuous Pagan spirituality woven into the warp and weft of Christian Europe.

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      #3
      Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

      Id say the witch cult historical and neopagan is a subjective reality, completely true within the confines of the group but external to the group its not going to make a lot of sense. Its like in group rituals if youre not in the circle you probably wont believe that what people say they experienced actually happend. While within the circle its an indisputable reality.

      Did 1 happen? Maybe within the confines of a subjective reality of the time. The bible says agents of negative supernatural powers exist, they use different words within the bible for those agents but generally they describe the same thing. It wouldnt be beyond imagining that the spanish inquisition (Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!) thought in those terms and considered that that they were exterminating heathens or witches whatever word in modern english best describes the version of the biblical charactors they believed in back then

      from Monty Python's Flying Circus Season 2 - Episode 15 The Spanish IquisitionRecorded 02-07-70, Aired 22-09-70


      Did 2 happen. Margaret murray thought they did and she was intelligent or atleast educated. Popular theories today might be incredibly unpopular tommorrow and then they have a habbit of coming back around again when no one can think of something else to progress the discipline. If I was to say she was definately wrong Id be out in the cold so maybe it happend.

      An important public service announcement brought to you by the comedy legend Harry Enfield and his Chums. From BBC.Watch more Harry Enfield clips with BBC Wo...


      Basically neither is true or both are true if we respect peoples beliefs. Its a more pleasant and productive life supporting people then tearing them down imo.
      Last edited by JamesByrne; 14 Jul 2012, 06:13.

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        #4
        Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

        Thank you Frankophonic - I wass particularly interested in your comments about guiding spirits, because I often wonder how people who would describe themselves as Christians manage to fit this into their personal belief system, yet they do.

        I know when I was researching for one of my books recently I was astonished to find how often (in England anyway) the converted Christians returned to their previous beliefs. And also how often the clergy seem to have been luke-warm in their practices at best.

        I seem to remember reading somewhere that part of the movement against 'witches' was caused by a series of bad harvests that had to be blamed on someone! Having said that, I don't have the reference to hand and am not totally sure I can find it again but I will do my best because it sheds a rather different light on what might have been happening.
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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          #5
          Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

          Deconversion and syncretism where a constant thorn in the side of Christian missionaries, for sure! I have also read of poor harvests spurning witch hunts. It seems scapegoating was the major factor of so much religious strife. The plague alone brought the need for an "other" to blame and it had devastating effects on poor accused peasants and, of course, Jews.

          I like what James said about it being true "within a system." Christian foundational myths are similar. I doubt many educated theology-reading Christians literally believe that St. Peter and St. Paul could cure the poor with their shadow (seriously...it's in the scriptures) but perhaps it is true int he sense that it is a clever way to explain the importance of those two apostles, just as the witch-cult gives a beautiful, almost secretive myth for Wiccans to hold to.

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            #6
            Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

            Coming at this from a decidedly non-academic direction...

            I don't think there was necessarily an organized, centralized witch-cult in western Europe, but there's an awful lot of anthropological & archaeological evidence that points to the existence of some kind of pre-Christian spirituality, usually polytheistic and organic in nature, e.g., Paganism. Considering modern interpretations of such, there were probably 'witches' in existence - shamans, medicine-people, priests, priestesses, whatever you want to call 'em. If pre-Christian western Europe was organized into tribal communities, each tribe may have had its own deities, spirits, ancestors, etc. & those near by one another may have borrowed from one another's pantheons.

            'Folk religion' is hard to stamp out. Look at Africa or South America or the Caribbean Islands. Yes, there's Muslim, Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism... and there is also Vodou/Vudu/Vodun/Candomble/etc. Japan still has Shinto and ancestor-worship. Indigenous populations in the US, Canada, Siberia & elsewhere still fight to maintain ancient traditions alongside modern influences. That alone says that cultural traditions & religious practices can and do survive the invasion of foreign influence. So to think that Christianity/Catholicism completely stamped out all traces of pre-Christian Paganism is a little short-sighted. Granted, Christianity did have a longer timeframe, fraught with mini-Ice Ages & plagues & hysteria to do its best to eliminate the competition, but... I believe that belief and faith can endure.
            The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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              #7
              Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

              One more thing that really, to me, shows the survival of Pagan spirituality is the Virgin Mary. All the casuistic games that Catholic theologians like to play will never ever cut away the decidedly Pagan garb of Mother Mary. Her titles like "Queen of Heaven" and "Mother of God" or "Theotokos (bearer of God)" are just too similar to Pagan concepts. I mean, the church of Santa Maria Maggiore (Mary Great) in Rome is built on the top of what once was the temple to Magna Mater (the Great Mother of Rome, a Hellenized Cybele cult). Our Lady of Guadeloupe appeared on a hill sacred to the Aztec mother goddess. It's just too Pagan to be a coincidence. Even her associations with being crowned with stars and standing on the moon (albeit a reference to Revelation chapter 12) reeks of Pagan goddesses of old.

              Jesus seems to treat her almost with disdain in the Bible, once refusing to recognize her as family and instead saying that his followers were his "true" family. When asked to help at the wedding of Cana, Jesus is quite short with her. The idea that she was this beloved sacred figure from the get go is just Catholic historical rewrite. She disappears from the Biblical narrative after Pentecost and the early Church fathers mention her rarely. It isn't until Christianity starts vigorous missionary activity into Pagan lands with loads of female goddesses does this replacement goddess become so important. Her cult by the Medieval Era was enormous and many Catholics even to this day are much more Mary-focused than Jesus-focused. I have been around countless Catholics as an ex-Catholic myself to whom Jesus is a secondary figure to the starry Queen of Heaven.

              The idea of a Queen of Heaven surrounded by countless saints that all rule over specific dominions as "patrons" seems to have nothing to do with the radical and apocalyptic teachings of Jesus and Paul and much more to do with Pagan pantheons and goddess figures.

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                #8
                Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

                I have done minimal reading about the Witch-cult in Europe, Never having read the actual publication myself, (It wasn't in the local library and I just wasn't interrested enough at the time to look further.) Her (Margaret Murray's) theory was widely accepted at the time it seems, by many scholars, with the exception of specific people who tended to specialize in the witch trials and inquisitions. These are the people who tore her a new one for her theories and conclusions. It is hawever worth noting that her original area of study was Egyptology, and she did the vast majority of the studies that went into her first book on the subject were done durring a period when apparently there were issues continuing to dig in egypt. (My reading was done more than a year ago so a few of my specifics are a bit fuzzy, but I will try later to post a few sources.) It is also worth noting that she was not the first to suppose that the inquisition was not in fact burning satans deciples but persecuting members of older "pagan" religions. there was a scholar from Italy in I think 1400 something, and it also includes one of the brothers Grimm. Malleus Maleficarum was written sometime around the 14-1500's as well If memory serves, but it was my understanding that witch was a term given to those who were in congress with Satan at the time so it is debateable if Witch-Cult is the correct term to use. I personally think that it would havebeen quite difficult for a proper cult to have existed in the manner thatwas postulated by Murray. but there is a staggering lack of evidence supplied by any group to suggest that there were or were not people of ancient pagan religions being punnished at the time of the inquisitions. from my understanding of the Inquistion people were tortured and asked many leading questions to arrive at certain conclusions, and I do not believe a conclusion arrived at in this manner is in any way even remotely reliable. So who's to say? I am personally waiting for a time machine so we can all find out just how wrong we are, (or right as the case may or may not be.) Personally I love hearing all sorts of theories, as I am a fan of thinking, and good grief do I love debating, (or as my husband calls it "being an obstinate asshole")
                http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                ~Jim Butcher

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                  #9
                  Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

                  A single cult of practice and beliefs? No.

                  But the remnants of many practices and beliefs that evolved into folklore and folk practices and superstitions and community and family traditions? Absolutely.
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                    #10
                    Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

                    Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                    A single cult of practice and beliefs? No.

                    But the remnants of many practices and beliefs that evolved into folklore and folk practices and superstitions and community and family traditions? Absolutely.
                    Yes, I think that just about sums it up for me too.
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                      #11
                      Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

                      What I learned in my Euro History class was that the Catholic Church were a bunch of power and money hungry people who were essentially in league with the wealthy ruling families of Europe, and they used tactics like the Inquisition to keep the peasants nice and oppressed through fear and paranoia, both of witches and of the inquisition. And on some feminist websites which shall not be named, I read something along the lines that targeting mature, independent women who lived on their own away from mainstream society was a way for the Church to push patriarchy on all women, with the threat of "we'll have you executed for witchcraft if you try acting like you're your own human being and not a walking baby factory." I can't provide citations for either, because it would take longer to find the sources than to actually write the words I just wrote.

                      But regardless, I think it wasn't so much about religion or witchcraft as it was about politics and controlling people.

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                        #12
                        Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

                        The Inquisition's primary target was heresy not witchcraft. They were also not the only ones hunting heretics. Execution for heresy was a state business, it happened after the Inquisitors decided that you were beyond their capacity to reform and handed you back to secular authority. They both possessed and used lesser punishments. They also occassionally prevented bloodshed. There's at least one case that I ran across references a couple months ago where a witch craze started popping up, an Inquisitor rides out to take a look, reports back and the Inquisitorial office responds by issueing an Edict of Silence. Effectively they tell the region, "Shut up. No one talks about witchcraft, anywhere at all without our approval." The hysteria dies down a couple months later, minimal bloodshed.

                        I won't argue that they were a nice or moral organization but turning them into 2D monsters that singlehandedly shoved tyrranny down the throat of Europe greatly overestimates their crimes, their abilities and the good nature of the rest of Europe. They have innocent blood on their hands, far too much of it but their crimes tend to be exxagerated far too much.

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        ADD: The Edict of Silence trick is actually used twice. The second time people start dying because the Inquisition loses control of the area temporarily. They stop the executions and release prisoners upon reclaiming control of the proceedings.

                        Side note, when judging the Inquisition it'd help to define which one. Different forms appear at different times and places.
                        Last edited by MaskedOne; 19 Aug 2012, 17:40.
                        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

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                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

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                          #13
                          Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

                          The the Inquisition is a complex beast. And of course as Masked One says, it wasn't really about witchcraft, but heresy. Also, there were witchfinders in Protestant England in the 17th century, and what are we to make of the Salem Witch Trials? No RC Church or Inquisition involvement there as far as I know.
                          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                            #14
                            Re: The Witch Cult in Europe.... totally discredited or is it?

                            First off, Tylluan, I keep getting distracted by turnips, and can't help but think I've seen that line somewhere before... Second I completely agree with what Maskedone says about it being more about politics and heresy than witches or even satan, things like even early protestantism, while very nearly mirroring the catholic church in some places was heresy, and punnishable by death as well, depending on your government. The witch cult theory however is a bit hard to swaqllow when we have clear indications that it just was'nt the case. I think that remnants of older religions obviously remain, we see them integrated in christian practices all of the time, but I really have a hard time buying that there was a whole Western european cult of witches who all believed the same thing that the church conspired to stamp out. So I guess it seems like mostly the Witch-cult in europe is a bit of a discredited theory, but the idea that nothing of ancient pagan religions survived is, in my personal and likely totally biased opinion, bunk.
                            http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                            But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                            ~Jim Butcher

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