Ancient Teutonic religion, and German idealism

[demon]

German idealism (and related philosophy, such as by Descartes, who was probably Germanic, and Nietzsche, who may not have been idealist) includes both pagans such as Nietzsche, and professed Abrahamists who were said to actually be secretly pagan, such as Hegel and Leibniz.

Does anyone integrate German idealism somehow with ancient-based Teutonic religion? Hellenismos has a great philosophy tradition, and I think it is time for the other ethnic European religions to take a deeper intellectual stance like the ancient/Classical Greeks did... so that is my question and suggestion with German idealism.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Ancient Teutonic religion, and German idealism

Hi and welcome. It might be a good idea to define exactly what you mean by German idealism here. Just so everyone is on the same page.
And then how would you define the 'ancient-based Teutonic' religion?

My own feeling is that the absence of evidence of the philosophical stances of people outside the Graeco-Roman system is going to difficult to locate simply because many relied on an oral tradition. But I'm willing to give it a try.... I think....

[demon]

Re: Ancient Teutonic religion, and German idealism

Hi and welcome. It might be a good idea to define exactly what you mean by German idealism here. Just so everyone is on the same page.
And then how would you define the 'ancient-based Teutonic' religion?

There is a German idealism article on Wikipedia, but apparently I am not allowed to post it. As for the religion, it is just what I decided to call Teutonic/Germanic 'heathenism' this time--whether meaning reconstructionist or people having their own sort of religion--as I find the words 'pagan,' 'heathen' offencive sometimes and I think the people that have such religion should use a more specific name, such as the Greek ones do with 'Hellenismos.' Unless a 'pagan' religion is based on a specific religious concept such as 'Tao,' etc., I think the best word to define it is one in terms of culture... and no one has done that with the ethnic Teutonic religion.

I will try to explain anyway. Idealism is the idea that the fundamental substance of existence is something such as based on Plato's 'ideal forms, i.e. in the mind, not matter. Cartesianism and German idealism further developed the ideas started in idealism in Classical Greek philosophy such as that of Pythagoras, Socrates & Plato, the Neoplatonists, among others. This idealism is usually allied with rationalism, and recent research showed Plato may have had a view of existence based on mathematics--a traditionally rationalist idealist subject--rather than religion. Some of the main German idealists include Leibniz and Hegel, and many who reacted to those two and had their own ideas. It was almost like another modern Enlightenment Age.

[Wednesday]

Re: Ancient Teutonic religion, and German idealism

There is a German idealism article on Wikipedia, but apparently I am not allowed to post it. As for the religion, it is just what I decided to call Teutonic/Germanic 'heathenism' this time--whether meaning reconstructionist or people having their own sort of religion--as I find the words 'pagan,' 'heathen' offencive sometimes and I think the people that have such religion should use a more specific name, such as the Greek ones do with 'Hellenismos.' Unless a 'pagan' religion is based on a specific religious concept such as 'Tao,' etc., I think the best word to define it is one in terms of culture... and no one has done that with the ethnic Teutonic religion.

There isn't a specific religious name for heathens/heathenry because there wasn't ever a separation between religion and life. The only thing that identified them was their tribe name (I.E Suevi, Ubii). That doesn't work today. We could make up a name but...why? Heathen does the job and of people are uncomfortable with it for themselves then they can chose to modify it.

Call Us Heathens might be an article you'dbe interested in.

I will try to explain anyway. Idealism is the idea that the fundamental substance of existence is something such as based on Plato's 'ideal forms, i.e. in the mind, not matter. Cartesianism and German idealism further developed the ideas started in idealism in Classical Greek philosophy such as that of Pythagoras, Socrates & Plato, the Neoplatonists, among others. This idealism is usually allied with rationalism, and recent research showed Plato may have had a view of existence based on mathematics--a traditionally rationalist idealist subject--rather than religion. Some of the main German idealists include Leibniz and Hegel, and many who reacted to those two and had their own ideas. It was almost like another modern Enlightenment Age.

Heathenry was world-accepting at it's core, and a philosophy would have to be compatible with that. I don't personally make a concentrated effort to reconcile any particular philosophy with heathenry, but I'd be interested in discussing something a little more specific with you.

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Ancient Teutonic religion, and German idealism

There is a German idealism article on Wikipedia, but apparently I am not allowed to post it. As for the religion, it is just what I decided to call Teutonic/Germanic 'heathenism' this time--whether meaning reconstructionist or people having their own sort of religion--as I find the words 'pagan,' 'heathen' offencive sometimes and I think the people that have such religion should use a more specific name, such as the Greek ones do with 'Hellenismos.' Unless a 'pagan' religion is based on a specific religious concept such as 'Tao,' etc., I think the best word to define it is one in terms of culture... and no one has done that with the ethnic Teutonic religion.

I will try to explain anyway. Idealism is the idea that the fundamental substance of existence is something such as based on Plato's 'ideal forms, i.e. in the mind, not matter. Cartesianism and German idealism further developed the ideas started in idealism in Classical Greek philosophy such as that of Pythagoras, Socrates & Plato, the Neoplatonists, among others. This idealism is usually allied with rationalism, and recent research showed Plato may have had a view of existence based on mathematics--a traditionally rationalist idealist subject--rather than religion. Some of the main German idealists include Leibniz and Hegel, and many who reacted to those two and had their own ideas. It was almost like another modern Enlightenment Age.

I believe I understand what you are saying. If you look at the way a lot of different polytheistic traditions developed, the most "civilized" such as those in Greece or India often blended their more ancient religion with a highly mystical and monistic philosophy. In Greece, this began with Orphism, Pythagoreanism, and various other pre-Socratic philosophers. It culminated in Stoicism, Hermeticism, Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, and arguably Christianity.

I believe that most polytheistic cultures in Europe would have eventually developed similar philosophies, no doubt influenced by the Greeks. Possibly, they already had such notions. Many polytheists, while worshiping many deities, also conceptualized the universe as a living thing (e.g. the tree, Yggdrasil), which is certainly a notion with deep philosophical implications. I know some Indo-European pagans who have reconstructed putative philosophical concepts going back to PIE times, claiming the Hindu "rta" to be one such example. Who is to say they are wrong?

As far as we know though, and according to most modern Germanic/Norse pagans, the world of the average Germanic pagan was not the world of the Pythagorean. The closest they get to philosophy is Havamal, which is fairly practical real world advice- not for contemplating metaphysics. Personally, I like that, but to each their own. Likely some mystical individuals, such as priests or Seidr practitioners had a more mystical or philosophical view than the lay person, but we don't know. For me, those philosophies are interesting speculation, but don't really influence how I practice.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Ancient Teutonic religion, and German idealism

There is a German idealism article on Wikipedia, but apparently I am not allowed to post it.

This is due to an anti-spam feature the site has in place. You get the ability to post links at 15 posts. Posts made in the Introductions subforum and LOLs, quizzes and games sub-forum aren't counted.

[demon]

Re: Ancient Teutonic religion, and German idealism

I believe I understand what you are saying. If you look at the way a lot of different polytheistic traditions developed, the most "civilized" such as those in Greece or India often blended their more ancient religion with a highly mystical and monistic philosophy. In Greece, this began with Orphism, Pythagoreanism, and various other pre-Socratic philosophers. It culminated in Stoicism, Hermeticism, Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, and arguably Christianity.

Idealism is not necessarily mysticism, and I think mysticism has some advantages, but mostly disadvantages, depending on definition. All those Greek philosophies beyond Orphism have a large degree of rationalism (as do others,) which is opposed to some definitions of mysticism. If mysticism means 'mystery cult' which has more to do with both rituals and learning difficult topics that can still be rational, then a few could be mystical in that sense when combined with other Hellenismos. Christianity is a West Asian religion that spread to Europe, though it was influenced by ancient/Classical Greek philosophy. German idealism that furthered the earlier ideas is not necessarily any sort of mysticism either in the 'cult' sense or some sort of hybrid emotional-intellectual sense.

I believe that most polytheistic cultures in Europe would have eventually developed similar philosophies, no doubt influenced by the Greeks. Possibly, they already had such notions. Many polytheists, while worshiping many deities, also conceptualized the universe as a living thing (e.g. the tree, Yggdrasil), which is certainly a notion with deep philosophical implications. I know some Indo-European pagans who have reconstructed putative philosophical concepts going back to PIE times, claiming the Hindu "rta" to be one such example. Who is to say they are wrong?

Interesting. The idea that the universe is alive is one idea that has been developed in the contemporary philosophy that developed by building on the ideas of German idealism.

As far as we know though, and according to most modern Germanic/Norse pagans, the world of the average Germanic pagan was not the world of the Pythagorean. The closest they get to philosophy is Havamal, which is fairly practical real world advice- not for contemplating metaphysics. Personally, I like that, but to each their own. Likely some mystical individuals, such as priests or Seidr practitioners had a more mystical or philosophical view than the lay person, but we don't know. For me, those philosophies are interesting speculation, but don't really influence how I practice.

I have read the Havamal when I read the Eddas, but it was a year or two ago. When I looked it up, what I saw is the sort of thing that I might prefer instead of the far Eastern philosophy such as Taoism I largely followed for years.

I am not sure how to get into comparing ancient Teutonic religion and German idealism, which is largely rationalist, but it is claimed that some of the best German idealists--such as Leibniz and Hegel--who claimed to be Christian, were in fact strictly pagan. This brings up the question of whether people should be basing their worldview on mythology rather than mathematics-based (in the case of Leibniz) philosophy & science, such as whether history will end with Ragnarok or something else (as Hegel described.) Surely a wisdom god like Odin would want one to consider such ideas and be skeptical about his very existence. Many modern 'heathens' think the gods exist, and maybe they do, but there is always the question of what their nature is, such as if they are really as described in stories (which ancient philosophical pagans cautioned against, while publicly condoning the gods.) Most modern 'heathens' at least do not base their entire worldview on mythology. So my question is, if this German idealism had original and subversive ideas that developed past pagan thought, why base one's ideas on the ancient pagans any more than the modern ones? Could the two views be integrated somehow, such as with the few idealist schools of psychology and what they say about religion? That might help for personal practice, but it is still somewhat as intellectual as the rest and maybe not as practical as the Havamal you mentioned. However, if people become aware of their life force or energy, or psychic things, i.e. if they become aware of magic (which as a rationalist idealist I claim exists to some extent, because of my own experiences, but I think not all type of magic exists) then psychology (Jungian, transpersonal) is probably a good related field for priests and Seidr practitioners.