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    Ancestor Work

    My husband and I are looking to set up an ancestor alter and start some ancestor work in earnest. I'm Northern Tradition, and part of his increasingly eclectic practice is Hoodoo. Ancestor work is an important part of both of these paths (and of several others).

    I'm interested to know how many others here practice any sort of (non-deity) ancestor work? I know that for some Heathens and Northern Traditioners, the deities are considered to be part of the ancestor system, but personally I separate the two out at this point in my practice. Others don't practice ancestor work at all.

    So... do you practice ancestor work? Do you have an altar or shrine? What sort of things do you do as a part of your work? Which ancestors do you work with? What kinds of offerings do you make? Where is your altar/shrine? Do you practice ancestor work beyond a round in sumbl? How important are the ancestors to your personal practice? Share as little or as much as you like...

    #2
    Re: Ancestor Work

    I've recently become quite interested in landvaettir and husvaettir, and see little problems including those concepts into my own practise, but I struggle with ancestors. I'm not sure if its because I don't have a theory for after death or spirits and should etc. I would like to imagine that they are there, but can't reconcile it.

    so back on topic, I don't practise ancestor worship, but I am interested. How related are the husvaettir and the ancestors?

    and apologies if I'm hacking the thread. This has just got me thinking and I didn't see a need for a new one.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
    The world had been yelling
    Since the day you were born
    Revolting with anger
    While it smiled like it was cute
    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Ancestor Work

      Originally posted by Heka View Post
      so back on topic, I don't practise ancestor worship, but I am interested. How related are the husvaettir and the ancestors?
      There are some cross overs. Male ancestors sometimes go on to become protective spirits of the land they owned and lived on, and thus certain landvaettir can be considered to have ancestral links. Landvaettir are are complex system of spirits... there is the spirit of the land itself (the ancient, animistic identity of the ground and rock and stone) and then there are the spirits that have attached to that piece of land, such as the protective spirits (which can include male ancestors), the smaller nature vaettir of the water or forest or other transient features (transient in the grand timescape of land, which could be thousands of years) and the plant and animal guides that have a vested interest in certain patches of land. There are vaettir of rivers or oceans, which can interact with several landvaettir in their course. There are vaettir of cities, which can either merge with or even kill the older landvaettir.

      So while an ancestor is not necessarily a landvaettr itself (singular 'vaettr', plural 'vaettir', not a spelling error lol), it can become a part of the landvaettir system of a place.

      Same with husvaettir. Husvaettir can be protective spirits, the spirits of the actual wood and stone that the house was constructed of, part of the landvaettir system that has moved into the building, smaller vaettir like those that are often called brownies, hobs, kobolds etc, or even hearth deities that are honored within your house. Some husvaettir move with a family when they move, while some are rooted in the house and stay regardless of how many families come and go. Many houses have a number of husvaettir rather than a single vaettr, that work together to keep your household running smoothly. Sometimes ancestors will include themselves into this group. Some people consider the protective female ancestors (disir) to be a part of this system.

      So some ancestors can be included with landvaettir or husvaettir. But most are a separate group of spirits. Personally I consider that I have a household of spirits, just like I would have a household of people. The actual husvaettr is a part of this household, but so are the other spirits in my family that will move with me with I move. The disir are a part of my household of spirits, as are my husband's familiar, my drum spirit, my staff spirit, my hide spirits etc. The ghost cat that was already here when we moved in has been invited to be a permanent part of our household if it chooses. We wont know until we move which way it has chosen.

      Originally posted by Heka View Post
      I've recently become quite interested in landvaettir and husvaettir, and see little problems including those concepts into my own practice, but I struggle with ancestors. I'm not sure if its because I don't have a theory for after death or spirits and should etc. I would like to imagine that they are there, but can't reconcile it.
      Lots of people practice ancestor work without even realising it. Do you have pictures of deceased friends and relatives in your house? Do you remember their names fondly? Do you visit their graves or think of them when you drive past the cemetery?

      The fact that you talk about your Swiss grandma and are proud of your surname and want to keep it because you are the only ones in Aus is the beginnings of ancestor work.

      Our ancestors can help us learn more about our spiritual path, can protect our family line, can give us advice, can help with the running of the household... lots of different things. But in order to feel comfortable working with them you do need to have some concept of what happens after we die.

      I'm not going to go into my thoughts of after-death here because it's LOOOONG but the quick version is that there are several things that can happen to you after you die and some spirits chose to stay as they are and watch over their families. These are the ancestors that can be worked with. Not every single person in your ancestral line will be available to be an 'ancestor' in the sense of being able to work with them. Some reincarnate or go off into Lands of the Dead that aren't accessible to us because of religious differences or whatever. Some don't retain their individual identity and earthly cares after death. It depends on the person they were when they were alive, their faith, their culture, their beliefs, and what they have experienced since death. I think that some faiths are more likely to produce ancestors who will stick around than others... and they don't have to be 'pagan'. Heathens and Northern Traditioners, the Afro-Caribbean faiths, the American South who practice some Hoodoo or Conjure folk magick (some of whom can't be considered 'Afro-Caribbean), the Chinese culture who's ancestor veneration is quite separate to any religious beliefs, Catholics who pray for deceased relatives... the list goes on and these are just the obvious ones. Ironically, some pagan faiths are LESS likely to produce these ancestors, because their folk may be reincarnated and thus don't stick around for long enough.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Ancestor Work

        I really enjoyed learning about African faith while I was studying their art and I would be interested in getting into the ancestor side of things but....

        I have no idea who my ancestors are. In fact, the only deceased relatives I know anything about are my maternal grandmother and my paternal great grandmothers. My maternal grandma is not someone I want anything to do with really. She was quite mean. And the paternal greats were interesting, but one died when I was very young and I only have vague memories of her and the other one I only met a time or two. I honestly can't remember any of their names. And nobody in my family talks about anyone further back than that.

        Oh, and my great uncle. Him I could do something with. He really set me on my way spiritually, while he was still with us. And he had quite an interesting life too.

        But still, if I was to really get into this, I guess I would want someone more than one or two generations old to turn to... idk.
        We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

        I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
        It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
        Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
        -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

        Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Ancestor Work

          Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
          I really enjoyed learning about African faith while I was studying their art and I would be interested in getting into the ancestor side of things but....
          I have no idea who my ancestors are.
          ......
          I don't actually know many of my ancestors, either. (Though I have been trying to do a bit of research.) So when I honor the ancestors, it's usually just like that, as "the ancestors" as a whole rather than any particular individual.
          Hearth and Hedge

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Ancestor Work

            I now have time to reply so here it goes (also thank you)

            Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
            There are some cross overs. Male ancestors sometimes go on to become protective spirits of the land they owned and lived on, and thus certain landvaettir can be considered to have ancestral links. Landvaettir are are complex system of spirits... there is the spirit of the land itself (the ancient, animistic identity of the ground and rock and stone) and then there are the spirits that have attached to that piece of land, such as the protective spirits (which can include male ancestors), the smaller nature vaettir of the water or forest or other transient features (transient in the grand timescape of land, which could be thousands of years) and the plant and animal guides that have a vested interest in certain patches of land. There are vaettir of rivers or oceans, which can interact with several landvaettir in their course. There are vaettir of cities, which can either merge with or even kill the older landvaettir.
            This is a fantastic answer, I actually can think if no further questions at this point.

            So while an ancestor is not necessarily a landvaettr itself (singular 'vaettr', plural 'vaettir', not a spelling error lol), it can become a part of the landvaettir system of a place.
            also very useful piece of info (where did you learn that? Can you speak any Scandinavian languages?)

            Same with husvaettir. Husvaettir can be protective spirits, the spirits of the actual wood and stone that the house was constructed of, part of the landvaettir system that has moved into the building, smaller vaettir like those that are often called brownies, hobs, kobolds etc, or even hearth deities that are honored within your house. Some husvaettir move with a family when they move, while some are rooted in the house and stay regardless of how many families come and go. Many houses have a number of husvaettir rather than a single vaettr, that work together to keep your household running smoothly. Sometimes ancestors will include themselves into this group. Some people consider the protective female ancestors (disir) to be a part of this system.
            Also very clear answers. I've never heard of brownies and hobs etc before. Are these specific things? I would assume that husvaettir that move with the family are more likely to be ancestors? As well as the ones that stay? And so a female ancestor is disir, what is a male ancestor?

            So some ancestors can be included with landvaettir or husvaettir. But most are a separate group of spirits. Personally I consider that I have a household of spirits, just like I would have a household of people. The actual husvaettr is a part of this household, but so are the other spirits in my family that will move with me with I move. The disir are a part of my household of spirits, as are my husband's familiar, my drum spirit, my staff spirit, my hide spirits etc. The ghost cat that was already here when we moved in has been invited to be a permanent part of our household if it chooses. We wont know until we move which way it has chosen.
            Haha made me think, when yours and your husbands ancestors come together in a house, does all hell break lose with the in laws? Haha. Cool that you have a ghost cat.

            Lots of people practice ancestor work without even realising it. Do you have pictures of deceased friends and relatives in your house? Do you remember their names fondly? Do you visit their graves or think of them when you drive past the cemetery?

            The fact that you talk about your Swiss grandma and are proud of your surname and want to keep it because you are the only ones in Aus is the beginnings of ancestor work.
            my first thought to this was, no, I have no pictures of deceased friends or relatives. None are buried in our local cemetery and frankly I don't know any of them. Both mums parents were immigrants (the Swiss ones) and so all the ancestors on that side are in Switzerland and I've never met any before death or even know the names of them. Dad pretty much ran away from his family, I don't know all the names of my cousins and both his parents died before I was born. His dad was from Sweden, and his mother was from Bourke. I know nothing at all about my dads side of the family, except that they're Swedish. I gather some minor Irish or something from my grandmothers maiden name 'tyrrell', but I honestly have no idea, so I don't know what to start in terms of ancestors, and no one to ask. I'm just very find of Scandinavian beliefs and have always worked well with runes.

            my Swiss grandma is still alive, as is my grandpa, and he's traced the family back to the 1400s. So I guess I could start there, but as far as I'm aware, they're all RC, so I don't know how many of them may have hung round to be ancestors. Which is more related to your following point. I'm glad ancestor worship can be as simple as wanting to keep my surname as long as possible though.

            Our ancestors can help us learn more about our spiritual path, can protect our family line, can give us advice, can help with the running of the household... lots of different things. But in order to feel comfortable working with them you do need to have some concept of what happens after we die.

            I'm not going to go into my thoughts of after-death here because it's LOOOONG but the quick version is that there are several things that can happen to you after you die and some spirits chose to stay as they are and watch over their families. These are the ancestors that can be worked with. Not every single person in your ancestral line will be available to be an 'ancestor' in the sense of being able to work with them. Some reincarnate or go off into Lands of the Dead that aren't accessible to us because of religious differences or whatever. Some don't retain their individual identity and earthly cares after death. It depends on the person they were when they were alive, their faith, their culture, their beliefs, and what they have experienced since death. I think that some faiths are more likely to produce ancestors who will stick around than others... and they don't have to be 'pagan'. Heathens and Northern Traditioners, the Afro-Caribbean faiths, the American South who practice some Hoodoo or Conjure folk magick (some of whom can't be considered 'Afro-Caribbean), the Chinese culture who's ancestor veneration is quite separate to any religious beliefs, Catholics who pray for deceased relatives... the list goes on and these are just the obvious ones. Ironically, some pagan faiths are LESS likely to produce these ancestors, because their folk may be reincarnated and thus don't stick around for long enough.
            As I said, I'm pretty sure my Swiss side is all RC, but I'd be interested in those that aren't, and also, I wonder about any Swiss traditional beliefs... Not something you hear about is it? I figure the ancestors are more going to be in the fathers side, but again, I have no idea where to start with them as the family just doesn't connect /isn't there. Plus the tyrrell side could be interesting too I guess.

            and of course I gotta decide what happens when we die. My current line if thinking was along the idea of "matter doesn't die, it just changes" so my spirit/soul (still trying to work out that one too) could be absorbed back into the earth, and transformed into the lemon tree that gets planted near by, or it's gets re absorbed into the "universe", which I guess is a similar idea. Currently I'm not too sure about reincarnation (definitively not direct reincarnation, eg past life's etc i don't think) but perhaps in and out of the "universe". But that doesn't have much room for ancestors does it?

            sigh, thank you though, this has really got me thinking about where to go next!
            ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

            RIP

            I have never been across the way
            Seen the desert and the birds
            You cut your hair short
            Like a shush to an insult
            The world had been yelling
            Since the day you were born
            Revolting with anger
            While it smiled like it was cute
            That everything was shit.

            - J. Wylder

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Ancestor Work

              Originally posted by Heka View Post
              also very useful piece of info (where did you learn that? Can you speak any Scandinavian languages?)
              I'm a bit of a stickler for Old Norse terminology *blush* I can't speak it or read whole sentences of it, but I collect Old Norse terms and use them in my practice. I don't feel comfortable mixing terms... you wont see me using Old English terms or names unless there's no alternative, and even then I'll usually default to modern English instead (hence I tend to say 'spirit' instead of 'wight' if I don't say 'vaettr'). I'm also a stickler for Old Norse spelling. You'll never see me type 'Odin'... it's Odhinn when I can't be bothered cutting and pasting the proper characters. My ultimate goal is to learn to speak Old Norse (as best as we can reconstruct it from the written words and pronunciation of modern Icelandic), but the textbooks are expensive and I just can't afford it at this point.

              Originally posted by Heka View Post
              Also very clear answers. I've never heard of brownies and hobs etc before. Are these specific things? I would assume that husvaettir that move with the family are more likely to be ancestors? As well as the ones that stay? And so a female ancestor is disir, what is a male ancestor?
              The male ancestors are known as alfar. These terms are a bit confusing, because 'disir' also means 'goddess' and 'alfar' also means... well, the Alfar, who are a race of beings in the Nine Worlds who most people would recognise as 'elves'. There are different theories as to why the terms are applied to ancestors, none of which are really quite satisfactory. To be honest, I actually don't use the term 'alfar' because I feel uncomfortable with using it outside of the race of the Alfar. 'Disir' is a little different... it has connotation that also apply to 'protective spirit' and 'female spirit' rather than purely goddess. It's sort of like... 'female spirit who holds some power in her group'. Thus goddesses were referred to as 'disir', but so were ancestors and other minor spirits. I use 'Disir' to specifically denote the female spirits who protect a family line. Thus not all female ancestors are disir in my mind, just the ones who make it their mission to stick around and guide and protect their descendants.

              Brownies and hobs are minor entities that tend to come into a household and help out. Did you ever hear the fairytale of the Cobbler and the Elves? Well that's the sort of spirit that these names apply to. There are many different names for similar entities, depending on the country you're talking about... brownie, hob, tomte, nisse, domovoi... think of Dobby from Harry Potter and you're close (minus the slavery part).

              Originally posted by Heka View Post
              Haha made me think, when yours and your husbands ancestors come together in a house, does all hell break lose with the in laws? Haha. Cool that you have a ghost cat.
              This made me giggle lol. The serious side though is... what DOES happen when your ancestors don't get along with your spouse's ancestors? lol. I'm sure that there's someone, somewhere who has had this experience!!

              Originally posted by Heka View Post
              my Swiss grandma is still alive, as is my grandpa, and he's traced the family back to the 1400s. So I guess I could start there, but as far as I'm aware, they're all RC, so I don't know how many of them may have hung round to be ancestors. Which is more related to your following point. I'm glad ancestor worship can be as simple as wanting to keep my surname as long as possible though.
              Old people normally LOVE to talk about their families. My grandparents love it... they love to tell the history of their family and the dead relatives and where they were born and who they married etc etc... it can be rather boring if you're not into that sort of thing, but that info is invaluable. Especially place of birth. The place of birth can mean the difference between your hypothetical 'Smith' and everyone else's lol.

              Also, if by RC you mean Roman Catholic... you may be surprised. Catholics don't reincarnate. For the most part they continue to exist in more or less the same personality in Heaven in the presence of their God. So they make very contactable ancestors. And then consider that many of the Afro-Caribbean cultures are as much Catholic as anything else.

              You can honor ancestors without being 'pagan' about it. I'm sure that many Christian or Catholic ancestors would be happy to be honored with photos, candles and prayer. And many would be equally happy to keep an eye on their descendants without getting all religious about it. They may not want to participate if you made it a blatantly pagan or tried to ask them to help with magick, but when you dig into it, there's a lot of small folk stuff that is perfectly acceptable for Catholics in particular.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Ancestor Work

                Our Ancestors are our Ancestors. We can't pick and choose the ones we know or like. I'm as equally proud of my ancestors that were cattle thieves as I am of Thorfinn Skullsplitter, who was an Earl of Orkney and my many-greats grandfather. There is both a comfort and a power that comes from our Ancestors. The comfort may come from individual relationships, like with parents or grandparents or a connection perceived with some long-ago someone, but the power comes from the collective: all your Ancestors AND relatives, all the way back to the beginning. I know people who also include here all the Descendants to come, all the way to infinity.

                That's a lotta potential power.

                I do call on my crossed-over relatives and friends for guidance, and on my Disir for assistance. I generally call on the Valkyries for protection, but that might be a subject for another thread.
                I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

                Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
                Clan of my Clan
                Kin of my Kin
                Blood of my Blood



                For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Ancestor Work

                  Thanks for all that clarification Rae'ya.

                  Rick, do you have an opinion regarding Disir and Alfar, like Rae'ya mentioned?

                  Also I feel like I've jacked this thread, sorry!
                  ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                  RIP

                  I have never been across the way
                  Seen the desert and the birds
                  You cut your hair short
                  Like a shush to an insult
                  The world had been yelling
                  Since the day you were born
                  Revolting with anger
                  While it smiled like it was cute
                  That everything was shit.

                  - J. Wylder

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Ancestor Work

                    Originally posted by Heka View Post
                    Thanks for all that clarification Rae'ya.

                    Rick, do you have an opinion regarding Disir and Alfar, like Rae'ya mentioned?

                    Also I feel like I've jacked this thread, sorry!
                    I don't recall male Ancestors being referred to as Alfar, but I've forgotten a lot of stuff over many years...

                    Disir refers to all your female ancestors and relations all the way back to the beginning. Another term you may run into is Idises (plural, Idis singular), means the same thing. Technically speaking, your mother is a dis or idis, as would be your grandmother. Collectively, Disir or Idises would be all your female relations. I call on my mother, sister, grand and great-grandmothers, aunts, mother-in-laws, cousins and even close friends that have crossed over.

                    Honoring and/or invoking Ancestors has nothing to do with their faith or after-life destination. Other than maybe your children, your Ancestors are your most intimate blood connections. Your mate (hopefully ) isn't a blood relation. One of the tenets of Heathenism is the implied oath between kinsmen, to help one another, to stand together. When blood relationships go bad, it's one of the worst things that can happen.

                    Back to the topic of this thread... my wife and I each have an Ancestor altar. I have pictures of my parents and grandparents (I have one of my grandad in his WWI doughboy uniform) and tokens of them (my dad's fire dept. badge, etc). The wife has similar items on her Ancestor altar. These are on a set of shelves in our living room. We burn candles on their birthdays, anniversaries, etc. Part of our hand-fasting vows were to take each other's Ancestors and Descendants as our own (so between us, we have six children and ten grandchildren). I also have Odin and Thor statuettes, and a portrait of Freya in various places around the house.
                    I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

                    Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
                    Clan of my Clan
                    Kin of my Kin
                    Blood of my Blood



                    For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                    And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Ancestor Work

                      Originally posted by Heka View Post
                      Also I feel like I've jacked this thread, sorry!
                      Hey, if we're talking about ancestors, we're bang on topic lol

                      Originally posted by Rick View Post
                      I don't recall male Ancestors being referred to as Alfar, but I've forgotten a lot of stuff over many years...
                      I can't say that I've actually checked the primary sources to confirm, but most of the prominent Heathen authors talk about it - it's in the 'Our Troth' books by Gundarsson, for example, and all of Paxson's. Plus there are a great many Heathens who use the term in that context... you just have to spend ten minutes Googling Heathen websites and it pops up everywhere, which would indicate that it has been accepted into the Heathen and Northern Tradition community. The problem is that the term has been used in the lore in multiple circumstances and so it's unclear as to what the exact meaning is, which is part of why I'm uncomfortable using it. Some of the commonly accepted uses are just assumptions made based on unclear context, such as the fact that Freyr is referred to as the 'Lord of the Alfar'. Does that mean that he lives in Ljossalfheim, that he rules over the Alfar, or that the term 'alfar' is not restricted just to the Alfar? Theories vary lol. It's like the term disir (or idises, which is the Old Saxon term, ides is the Old English), which was used to indicate female ancestors, goddesses, female Ljossalfar, and minor nornir, although it's not actually proven that the disir and the idises are the same thing, because the context changed slightly over the years. Even the term 'nornir' brings some confusion with it. Unfortunately the primary sources have come to us in pieces through hundreds of years and multiple translations. We may never know the true meaning of some of these terms. It's possible that we're using these terms completely out of context and our ancestors wouldn't have a clue what we're talking about lol.

                      Originally posted by Rick View Post
                      Honoring and/or invoking Ancestors has nothing to do with their faith or after-life destination. Other than maybe your children, your Ancestors are your most intimate blood connections. Your mate (hopefully ) isn't a blood relation. One of the tenets of Heathenism is the implied oath between kinsmen, to help one another, to stand together. When blood relationships go bad, it's one of the worst things that can happen.

                      Back to the topic of this thread... my wife and I each have an Ancestor altar. I have pictures of my parents and grandparents (I have one of my grandad in his WWI doughboy uniform) and tokens of them (my dad's fire dept. badge, etc). The wife has similar items on her Ancestor altar. These are on a set of shelves in our living room. We burn candles on their birthdays, anniversaries, etc. Part of our hand-fasting vows were to take each other's Ancestors and Descendants as our own (so between us, we have six children and ten grandchildren). I also have Odin and Thor statuettes, and a portrait of Freya in various places around the house.
                      Now this is why I like to bring these things up, because it brings up the little nuances in difference in belief that we can discuss. Your ancestors are your ancestors, whether you like it or not, as Rick has said here. But I come from an animistic stance and to me, not all your ancestors are going to want to take an active part in helping you out with various things. So this is perhaps a difference in ancestor veneration vs actively working with your ancestors? Because venerating ancestors doesn't necessarily require active two-way communication, but many ancestor workers believe that they are working with the deceased in a partnership in the way that you would work with a spirit helper or guide. They have reported meeting deceased ancestors who hold onto biases and preferences that they held in life, who disapprove or actively refuse to take part in proceedings, who have input into what goes onto the altar etc etc.

                      Where do you draw the like, Rick? Do you feel that all ancestors are actively participating in a two-way partnership? Or do you feel that ancestor veneration is about us honoring and showing respect, without any actual spirit interaction? What are your thoughts on actually communicating with our ancestors?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Ancestor Work

                        Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                        I can't say that I've actually checked the primary sources to confirm, but most of the prominent Heathen authors talk about it - it's in the 'Our Troth' books by Gundarsson, for example, and all of Paxson's. Plus there are a great many Heathens who use the term in that context... you just have to spend ten minutes Googling Heathen websites and it pops up everywhere, which would indicate that it has been accepted into the Heathen and Northern Tradition community. The problem is that the term has been used in the lore in multiple circumstances and so it's unclear as to what the exact meaning is, which is part of why I'm uncomfortable using it. Some of the commonly accepted uses are just assumptions made based on unclear context, such as the fact that Freyr is referred to as the 'Lord of the Alfar'. Does that mean that he lives in Ljossalfheim, that he rules over the Alfar, or that the term 'alfar' is not restricted just to the Alfar? Theories vary lol. It's like the term disir (or idises, which is the Old Saxon term, ides is the Old English), which was used to indicate female ancestors, goddesses, female Ljossalfar, and minor nornir, although it's not actually proven that the disir and the idises are the same thing, because the context changed slightly over the years. Even the term 'nornir' brings some confusion with it. Unfortunately the primary sources have come to us in pieces through hundreds of years and multiple translations. We may never know the true meaning of some of these terms. It's possible that we're using these terms completely out of context and our ancestors wouldn't have a clue what we're talking about lol.



                        Now this is why I like to bring these things up, because it brings up the little nuances in difference in belief that we can discuss. Your ancestors are your ancestors, whether you like it or not, as Rick has said here. But I come from an animistic stance and to me, not all your ancestors are going to want to take an active part in helping you out with various things. So this is perhaps a difference in ancestor veneration vs actively working with your ancestors? Because venerating ancestors doesn't necessarily require active two-way communication, but many ancestor workers believe that they are working with the deceased in a partnership in the way that you would work with a spirit helper or guide. They have reported meeting deceased ancestors who hold onto biases and preferences that they held in life, who disapprove or actively refuse to take part in proceedings, who have input into what goes onto the altar etc etc.

                        Where do you draw the like, Rick? Do you feel that all ancestors are actively participating in a two-way partnership? Or do you feel that ancestor veneration is about us honoring and showing respect, without any actual spirit interaction? What are your thoughts on actually communicating with our ancestors?
                        Hehehe, I don't doubt you. More often than not, I'm working from memory, and after forty five-plus years, it sometimes all runs together. Something to keep in mind about the Eddas and Sagas is that a lot of honorific titles were used, ie Freya being referenced as a Norn, so it's sometimes difficult to keep track of who's who. Our Lore contains it's share of inconsistencies, like everyone else's, but sometimes it's as simple as poetic license and flowery language, like taking a voyage on your stallion of the waves in the direction of Delling's Door. And sometimes it's meant literally, leaving room for conjecture (and that's what makes it fun, right? ).

                        In answer to your question... yes. Well, mostly yes. I doubt if all my ancestors approve if all my actions. But they are still my Ancestors, that's unconditional, can't be changed. It's both my Wyrd and their Wyrds, and that becomes Orlog (for lack of a better term, 'family Wyrd,' just not exactly). I honor those I know of individually, but I also venerate my Ancestors collectively, because without any single one of them, I wouldn't be here. Someone would, but it wouldn't be me. Tapping into that collective Ancestor energy is like tapping into the energy of the Well, it's vast and nearly limitless.

                        I hope this makes sense, I feel like I've gone on a bit of a ramble.
                        I often wish that I had done drugs in the '70s. At least there'd be a reason for the flashbacks. - Rick the Runesinger

                        Blood and CountryTribe of my Tribe
                        Clan of my Clan
                        Kin of my Kin
                        Blood of my Blood



                        For the Yule was upon them, the Yule; and they quaffed from the skulls of the slain,
                        And shouted loud oaths in hoarse wit, and long quaffing swore laughing again.

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                          #13
                          Re: Ancestor Work

                          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post

                          I'm interested to know how many others here practice any sort of (non-deity) ancestor work? I know that for some Heathens and Northern Traditioners, the deities are considered to be part of the ancestor system, but personally I separate the two out at this point in my practice. Others don't practice ancestor work at all.

                          So... do you practice ancestor work? Do you have an altar or shrine? What sort of things do you do as a part of your work? Which ancestors do you work with? What kinds of offerings do you make? Where is your altar/shrine? Do you practice ancestor work beyond a round in sumbl? How important are the ancestors to your personal practice? Share as little or as much as you like...
                          The majority of my heathenry is focused on ancestors and the ancestral guardian spirits. The way I "practice" this is by finding a meaningful connect to the unbroken line of the human experience. My earliest grandmother worried about feeding her children and so do I. My earliest grandmother adapted to marriage and inlaws and so do I. My earliest grandmother tried to find worth in her existence and so do I. IOW, finding the strands of the sacred in the reality of everday living.

                          I'm not much on literal offerings beyond a cigarette here and there or a poured drink. My deep respect and love is my main offering, as is my attempt to at least gain a reverent understanding of family, womanhood, birth and death and the duties of the disir.

                          I don't really have an altar or shrine because my home is my sacred space. The kitchen where I bake bread is open to my ancestors, I call on my forefathers to watch over us as we sleep, the pictures on the walls, the recipes in cupboard that have been handed down, the old heirlooms...it's all shared space between me and the dead.


                          People, the dead, the familial spirits are probably the most important aspect of my spirituality. Gods are here, and the provide, but we ask them to.provide for the ones we love. And those beloved dead leave and become something even the gods turn to for assistance.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Ancestor Work

                            Originally posted by Rick View Post
                            Hehehe, I don't doubt you. More often than not, I'm working from memory, and after forty five-plus years, it sometimes all runs together. Something to keep in mind about the Eddas and Sagas is that a lot of honorific titles were used, ie Freya being referenced as a Norn, so it's sometimes difficult to keep track of who's who. Our Lore contains it's share of inconsistencies, like everyone else's, but sometimes it's as simple as poetic license and flowery language, like taking a voyage on your stallion of the waves in the direction of Delling's Door. And sometimes it's meant literally, leaving room for conjecture (and that's what makes it fun, right? ).
                            I think that's exactly the source of all the confusion, as you say lol. Kennings have a lot to answer for I am sworn to Skuld, who is one of The Nornir, so I'm sensitive to the usage of the term 'norn' in conflicting contexts within the Lore. And then throw in some secondary or tertiary sources that take one translation and run with it, then the generation of internet bloggers who take a single tertiary source as gospel and you end up not knowing what is what.

                            Which is part of why I'm not re-con and I put just as much significance (if not more) on the UPG of myself and others. I actually am not that concerned over whether current usage exactly matches ancient usage... but I still like to debate the semantics. I'm a bit weird like that. lol

                            Originally posted by Rick View Post
                            In answer to your question... yes. Well, mostly yes. I doubt if all my ancestors approve if all my actions. But they are still my Ancestors, that's unconditional, can't be changed. It's both my Wyrd and their Wyrds, and that becomes Orlog (for lack of a better term, 'family Wyrd,' just not exactly). I honor those I know of individually, but I also venerate my Ancestors collectively, because without any single one of them, I wouldn't be here. Someone would, but it wouldn't be me. Tapping into that collective Ancestor energy is like tapping into the energy of the Well, it's vast and nearly limitless.

                            I hope this makes sense, I feel like I've gone on a bit of a ramble.
                            You're talking to the queen of rambles here... I love rambling so go for it.

                            I actually do agree completely regarding ancestor veneration and all our ancestors being equally as worthy of acknowledgement as others. My husband has an interest in genealogy, and has worked on both our lines. There are some that are easy to follow a ways back, and some that aren't. It's impossible to individually know and have a relationship with every single one of your ancestors... there are just too many. Even if a person does work in a two way relationship with the spirit of a deceased ancestor, it's important to still remember the others. If you are getting too focused on individuals, then you are setting yourself up to exclude the others, whether they be recently deceased or ancient.

                            Genealogy is also a double edged sword. It's easy to go 'well I can trace my lineage back to the Danish King Hrothgar' and forget that there are a thousands of others that should also have a place on the altar, even if it's a collective representation for all those ancestors that you don't know.

                            Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                            The majority of my heathenry is focused on ancestors and the ancestral guardian spirits. The way I "practice" this is by finding a meaningful connect to the unbroken line of the human experience. My earliest grandmother worried about feeding her children and so do I. My earliest grandmother adapted to marriage and inlaws and so do I. My earliest grandmother tried to find worth in her existence and so do I. IOW, finding the strands of the sacred in the reality of everday living.

                            I'm not much on literal offerings beyond a cigarette here and there or a poured drink. My deep respect and love is my main offering, as is my attempt to at least gain a reverent understanding of family, womanhood, birth and death and the duties of the disir.

                            I don't really have an altar or shrine because my home is my sacred space. The kitchen where I bake bread is open to my ancestors, I call on my forefathers to watch over us as we sleep, the pictures on the walls, the recipes in cupboard that have been handed down, the old heirlooms...it's all shared space between me and the dead.

                            People, the dead, the familial spirits are probably the most important aspect of my spirituality. Gods are here, and the provide, but we ask them to.provide for the ones we love. And those beloved dead leave and become something even the gods turn to for assistance.
                            I like the concept of having different areas of the house sacred to ancestors as well, and it's something I've read about and thought about. Particularly relating to the kitchen and 'hearth' (which many of us don't actually have anymore). My ancestor work is in it's tiny infancy at the moment... and I work with other spirits on a regular basis. My current project is to get my 'household' in order - my physical house but also my household of spirits. Ancestors is a part of this, because while I have working relationships with deities, animal guides, and actual individual spirits that are a part of my 'retinue' (for lack of a better term), I haven't done much of anything with my ancestors bar some stumbling attempts at genealogy with what my grandparents could give me.

                            It also occurs to me that ancestor work comes a bit more naturally to some people, but in subtle ways. My husband and I are only recently working on this consciously, but we have always had an interest, independent of each other. We both have an interest in genealogy and a ingrained attitude of respect and remembrance of deceased relatives. Visiting graves, prayer, photographs, respect for the elders, the passing down of stories, inherited land and items, family history... these things come naturally to us and set us apart from others of our generation. It makes us a bit old fashioned in a lot of people's eyes, but it's never something that we considered of particular spiritual significance until we started looking at ancestor work. The more I dig into it, the more I find those little things that I've always done without thinking twice about it. And the more I find that this was always a part of my practice, I just didn't recognise it as such.

                            Edited for spelling error

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Ancestor Work

                              Not really heathen in practice but I wonder how many see a family egregore vice an actual family lineage that they pay homage and libations to? A concept or notion of what and how their ancestors were and the lineage of life and blood that is passed to the living, not a specific persons contributions or beliefs and practices.

                              I know for me as a genealogist each person is a step backwards along the line of my heritage. Yet my heritage is more than just the direct ancestors that passed the flame of life that would take presence in my physical birthing. My aunts and uncles influence and contribute to my family and carry the same ancestry yet only by action do they or did they influence me and mine. Neighbors who helped raise me and set my ethics, morals and behaviors as I grew who had no connection to my lineage via blood but are still my kith and kin in that sense of family.

                              All of the good, the bad and the ugly or beauty contributing to that family egregore that hides the shame and weakness even as it promotes and endorses the beauty and grandness of the family. An egregore that changes from day to day and generation to generation as it bends and twists to meet the needs of a changing world and family.

                              But as I said I do not claim to be a Heathen though I suppose my ancestry in part hailing from Scotland and Ireland might fall into parts of it given our family history and lore.
                              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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