Moral dilema :(

[Kahlenda]

Ok so i have come into a moral dilema involving my path, beliefs and my volunteering.

so part of my path involves some animism. so i recently started volunteering with lancshire wildlife trust. which i am enjoying. however one of the things we have been doing alot of, is pulling up a rather invasive foriegn plant called balsam. its super invasive and chokes native plants. so while im doing the local enviroment a favour im killing hundreds of these plants. and today we were clearing an over grown path, and that involved my cutting down lots and lots of ferns and willow herb, brambles nettles and other plants that were over growing along the side of the path. so anyway i got stung today in the eyebrow by a bee, which is weird cos usually they dont bother with me ever no matter how close i get. so i can't help but think or wonder that it was "karma" getting me back for destroying these plants. and of course not to mention that when i actually think about it i feel kinda bad for doing it.

so what do poeple think, or any thoughts or advice? anyone been in a similiar situation?

[thalassa]

Re: Moral dilema

So...I'm a nature-based Pagan with a degree in biology, specializing in conservation biology, which pretty much means I'm biased here...but.

No, I don't think its karma (not even the Western idea of "karma"). First off, getting stung by a bee is a perfectly natural thing to happen when someone is doing trail work (I've been stung more than once clearing brush and trails etc...heck, I've even been stung by a jellyfish planting seagrass). Second of all, nature isn't all nice and gentle and friendly. Its red in tooth and claw too. Plants (untoothed and declawed that they may be) are in a fierce competition with one another just as surely as animals do. Nature is as much destruction as creation, and you are as much nature as a plant or an animal in the woods.

TBH, from an ecological standpoint, disturbance improves biodiversity. And getting people into nature (by having trails that make it more accessible) improves their attitude towards nature and their stewardship in environmental matters. Sure, it involves the sacrifice of a couple of plants...but (assuming its like nearly every trail I've ever cleared) part of the reason those plants even grow so well along trails is because of the disturbance of the trail--they will grow back, or their off-spring will.

[Quetzal]

Re: Moral dilema

I think you're protecting native plants from a dangerous invasive species and your guilt over killing them has turned what was a simple incident (a bee stinging you) into a karmic symbol. Chances are, it was just a bee stinging you, as bees often do, even if you've been lucky enough to avoid it. Protecting native species is a good thing however. Clearing an overgrown path was just maintenance. Don't feel bad about those things.

[Malflick]

Re: Moral dilema

this is how I think about it: needless killing is wrong, but sometimes things have to be killed in order to fulfill a purpose. We eat plants or animals to feed ourselves, and like you have been doing, we weed out plants that would over take others.

Getting rid of all those plants isn't evil, they would overtake and smother other plants, being invasive. Instead, you are making the gardener's choice, the choice of a good steward, that the plant that is native deserves to be protected.

It the same thing for clearing a path: if there were not paths, there would be no people to go through the preserve, and it would be awful hard to keep the preserve open. Nature will grow, and expand, and fill spaces, and its our responsibility as humans to take care of nature, and part of that means that we hold it back from doing things it doesn't know better than to do, and to protect it from our own human mistakes such as the abundance of invasive wildlife that can brutally damage ecosystems.

This doesn't give us a leeway to destroy nature, but it does mean that part of protecting it involves some destruction. However, at the end of the day, you uproot those plants, and the wildlife preserve as a whole is better for it !

That's how I see things, and I hope it helped. Its something I've struggled with myself. When I walk through forests, and I step on a plant needlessly I apologize to the forest. I respect nature a lot.

But the difference is the purpose versus the meaningless or damaging action. The stepping on a plant for fun, or polluting the river for profit.... Around here recently we have had to cut down a lot of trees to protect other trees from an awful disease that they've been catching. Its sad to see the trees go, but in the end if they aren't cut down everything will suffer.

my 0.02.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Moral dilema

So...I'm a nature-based Pagan with a degree in biology, specializing in conservation biology, which pretty much means I'm biased here...but.

No, I don't think its karma (not even the Western idea of "karma"). First off, getting stung by a bee is a perfectly natural thing to happen when someone is doing trail work (I've been stung more than once clearing brush and trails etc...heck, I've even been stung by a jellyfish planting seagrass). Second of all, nature isn't all nice and gentle and friendly. Its red in tooth and claw too. Plants (untoothed and declawed that they may be) are in a fierce competition with one another just as surely as animals do. Nature is as much destruction as creation, and you are as much nature as a plant or an animal in the woods.

TBH, from an ecological standpoint, disturbance improves biodiversity. And getting people into nature (by having trails that make it more accessible) improves their attitude towards nature and their stewardship in environmental matters. Sure, it involves the sacrifice of a couple of plants...but (assuming its like nearly every trail I've ever cleared) part of the reason those plants even grow so well along trails is because of the disturbance of the trail--they will grow back, or their off-spring will.

mmmm i get what your saying, its why i dont have a problem with eating meat, or killing (hunting) animals. and that is some of the reason ive got into doing this stuff to help get more poeple interested in nature and helping to look after it. but i always have the rule that you shouldn't kill something unless you intend to eat it, use it or have to to protect yourself. i think thats mainly whats getting to me because i feel like im breaking that rule. especially when i look at it from an animism perspective and i am destroying the spirit of these plants and not using their bodies. its.... wasteful

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Moral dilema

but i always have the rule that you shouldn't kill something unless you intend to eat it, use it or have to to protect yourself. i think thats mainly whats getting to me because i feel like im breaking that rule.

So protecting your enviroment doesn't count?

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Moral dilema

.. so i can't help but think or wonder that it was "karma" getting me back for destroying these plants. and of course not to mention that when i actually think about it i feel kinda bad for doing it.

so what do poeple think, or any thoughts or advice? anyone been in a similiar situation?

I personally wouldn't think it's a mater of karma at all. Nature by design is a savage place and a constant battle for survival. With invasive species the balance becomes an issue for more than just the plant kingdom as the affect / effect is applied to all peoples that live there. Trying to remove an invasive presence is always a battle for many times the invader is more capable of rapid changes and modifications in its ability to multiply or change. In part I believe because it is an invader and the natural flora and fauna almost becomes stagnate in its ability due to lack of change or environmental influences.

I tend to think at times we as humans look upon nature from an animist perspective but never quite take that final step to view it as an animal ourselves. We keep it at a distance viewing it almost in a romantic lens where all things not only have a spirit but also try to make it equal to everything else there. Death is as important if not more so in ensuring a healthy environment.

That a bee stung you seems unimportant if your considering your face down into the plants and disturbing its environment. A long root can be the cause of a lot of trouble simply from its area of influence upon the forest floor when you pull. Even the perfume or deodorant your wearing can send mixed signals to the creature's of the area. A message that causes alarm and resistance or simply causes them to ignore you. The act of pulling those plants also cause other plants to release various odors (sorry can't think of the correct term at the moment) that could cause the reaction of the bee against an attacker.

The most advise I would offer is be very observant of the environment your getting ready to influence. Even consider what your wearing with regards to clothing and gloves as any plant pulled will leave its sap and oils upon your gloves or hands. That and aware of where your actually grabbing the plants at, ie base close to the ground or higher up the stem where you have to pull harder and do more damage to the plant itself which releases more sap and oils.

- - - Updated - - -

mmmm i get what your saying, its why i dont have a problem with eating meat, or killing (hunting) animals. and that is some of the reason ive got into doing this stuff to help get more poeple interested in nature and helping to look after it. but i always have the rule that you shouldn't kill something unless you intend to eat it, use it or have to to protect yourself. i think thats mainly whats getting to me because i feel like im breaking that rule. especially when i look at it from an animism perspective and i am destroying the spirit of these plants and not using their bodies. its.... wasteful

I am assuming that the plant remains are not burnt or such so regardless of where they end up they are aiding the life cycle and returning to the land in some form. As such the spirit and purpose of the plant is still being observed and its function is still being completed. Even to the degree of seeds being caught upon your clothing and being dropped elsewhere so the greater plant spirit survives.

I do think one aspect you may consider is do you view each plant as having an individual spirit or does the total plant have a grand spirit that represents the entire species of the given plant? I usually find that the Green Peoples or Standing Ones have a global spirit that permeates the entire forest or woodland not an individual spirit that is restricted to a given plant of bed of plants. Pulling some from a given area no more kills or damages that spirit than the winds that break the branches from the tree's kill the spirit of the tree's or a fire that sweeps across the landscape.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Moral dilema

I'm with Thalassa on this one.

Yes, you are killing individual plant spirits by tearing them up, but there's a very good reason. It's for the good of native plant species in the area. It's also for the good of the local bioregion. It's also for the good of local awareness and education regarding the area. So while you may not be using the actual carcasses of the dead plants, there are still very good reasons for doing what you are doing. And as MonSno says above, if the carcasses are going into any sort of compost or mulching system, then they are being used. Just because YOU aren't eating them doesn't mean that the land isn't.

If you take the time to touch base with the landspirit about this, you'll probably find that they're on board. The landspirits look at the big picture, and usually are not overly concerned with the destruction of individual spirits within their protection if it's for the greater good. You could also contact the 'grandparent spirit' of the species that you are pulling up, and you'll probably find that they also give their blessing for the work.

Individual plant spirits are a little different to individual animal spirits, especially ground cover plants. Ground cover and undergrowth plants tend to be a relatively communal spirit, so to speak... the actual individual spirit permeates a number of the plants, rather than just one. So pulling up one is not entirely killing the spirit, not in the same way that shooting a deer is killing that deer spirit, or cutting down an oak tree is killing that oak spirit. The other thing with plant spirits in a patch of wilderness is that they are interconnected with the land spirit much more so than plants in a garden. There is much more recycling of plant spirit matter (for lack of a better term) that happens within a wilderness area. This is reduced when you remove the carcass from the area rather than leaving it to degrade, but it's much less cut and dry than it is with animal spirits. You may also find that being in contact with the land spirits and grandparent spirits will cause them to pull back the individual plant spirits (depending on what species you're working with) before you tear them up, which would probably make you feel better about it.

One last thought for you... animism should never be just about the individual spirit of this plant or that rock. Animism in relation to your local wilderness is about the living spirit of all things, and the way in which they interconnect. It should be about the landspirits the minor landspirits, including rock, cave, river, waterfall etc, the plant spirits, the animal spirits, the invited spirits from cars and homes, the city spirits, ... about understanding their relationship with one another... about understanding the bigger picture as well as the small... about considering all of these things whenever you are interacting with these spirits. To me, a core part of my own animism is also about the local bioregion and understanding things like biodiversity and conservation. Sometimes we have to destroy in order to conserve, and that's not always a bad thing.

[Medusa]

Re: Moral dilema

Well if you protect one species of plant, you kill another. No matter what you do, you are killing something and letting something live. It's nature. It balances out.

[anunitu]

Re: Moral dilema

Every act,no matter how well meaning or good,can in its path cause negative actions. If you gather happiness, it may in fact cause suffering elsewhere. This is the way life works,for you to have,someone may have not.

I know this really does not help in the vast scope of our lives,but remember "Every action has an opposite and equal reaction"

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Moral dilema

..One last thought for you... animism should never be just about the individual spirit of this plant or that rock. Animism in relation to your local wilderness is about the living spirit of all things, and the way in which they interconnect. It should be about the landspirits the minor landspirits, including rock, cave, river, waterfall etc, the plant spirits, the animal spirits, the invited spirits from cars and homes, the city spirits, ... about understanding their relationship with one another... about understanding the bigger picture as well as the small... about considering all of these things whenever you are interacting with these spirits. To me, a core part of my own animism is also about the local bioregion and understanding things like biodiversity and conservation. Sometimes we have to destroy in order to conserve, and that's not always a bad thing.

Going of on a side note..

I think this is where it is really important that one know the flora and fauna of their area. I think its the Aspen tree that is all one spirit as they seem to grow from a central root system that connects all the tree's. Many of the Hollies fall into the same many tree's off a giant root system that ties them all together. Hollies are one of the few tree's that I've noticed that can root itself from a section of branch or old root that remained in the ground.

You mention spirits from cars and homes and it reminds me of the notion of the Manitou and how all things have a manitou that is part of it. Manitou is a Native American term but it best describes the notion of various levels and categories of "Spirits" and how they interact with not only each other but also the various levels of awareness and ability. Thus your toaster has a manitou of its own that will act or react with other mechanical spirits and can also interact with what one might term natural spirits.

[Valhalla]

Re: Moral dilema

Life and death are two sides of the same coin called "reality." I am not someone who really believes in objective morality. Then, I do, depending on your scope.

Human morality says, for instance, don't go around killing people for no reason. Why? Because humans build societies, and random killing brings instability to a society. But is it really OBJECTIVELY wrong? No, not really. Because if there were a solitary, space-dwelling organism that survived by eating planets, it would have no qualms about coming along and eating Earth and committing genocide billions of times over in one act. Would that be wrong, for the creature? Nope, not a bit. It would be "bad" for us humans, and we would have a duty to try to kill this thing before it destroyed us, but there wouldn't really be any morality involved.

So to bring it around to your situation: What is the human nature? Is it good for us to mow down ALL plants and trees? No, because they produce oxygen, food, and beauty. But will it harm to mow down SOME, to clear a path in a nature preserve? Nope, because there are plenty more. Yeah, it sucks for the trees, but you're a human. Worry about human interests.

That's why I don't believe in "karma." Does the tiger get bad karma for killing zebras to eat? That's its nature. It sucks for the zebras, but, that's their problem, not the tiger's. That's why I don't believe in karma. There's only adherence to the laws of Nature. You can follow them and Nature will reward your species with survival and evolution, or ignore them, and Nature will punish your species with annihilation.

What if we let ALL paths overgrow, all cities, all houses, all places, just to avoid killing some plants? It would be the destruction of human civilization. That's Nature's Law. Now get to mowing.

-Valhalla

[thalassa]

Re: Moral dilema

One last thought for you... animism should never be just about the individual spirit of this plant or that rock. Animism in relation to your local wilderness is about the living spirit of all things, and the way in which they interconnect. It should be about the landspirits the minor landspirits, including rock, cave, river, waterfall etc, the plant spirits, the animal spirits, the invited spirits from cars and homes, the city spirits, ... about understanding their relationship with one another... about understanding the bigger picture as well as the small... about considering all of these things whenever you are interacting with these spirits. To me, a core part of my own animism is also about the local bioregion and understanding things like biodiversity and conservation. Sometimes we have to destroy in order to conserve, and that's not always a bad thing.

This!

I'm not an animist, per se...but...I worship my bioregion as a deity and I recognize different aspects of my bioregion as being spiritally distinct.

Or, as I would put it: Bioregionalism: Emphasizes the bioregion as the basis for a healthier co-existence between human culture and the natural environment and sees humanity and its culture as a part of nature, and calls upon people to build positive, sustainable relationships with their bioregion.
Spiritual Bioregionalism: ecological/natural polytheism

[Kahlenda]

Re: Moral dilema

your guilt over killing them has turned what was a simple incident (a bee stinging you) into a karmic symbol. Don't feel bad about those things.

i have to say thinking about it i agree.

So protecting your enviroment doesn't count?

not to what i was doing, from my point of view the plants i was pulling up and cutting down, weren't going to cause me any harm there fore i wasnt protecting my self or others from them.

That a bee stung you seems unimportant if your considering your face down into the plants and disturbing its environment. A long root can be the cause of a lot of trouble simply from its area of influence upon the forest floor when you pull. Even the perfume or deodorant your wearing can send mixed signals to the creature's of the area. A message that causes alarm and resistance or simply causes them to ignore you. The act of pulling those plants also cause other plants to release various odors (sorry can't think of the correct term at the moment) that could cause the reaction of the bee against an attacker.

nice idea but it stung me cause it landed on my face and i slapped it before i realised what it was haha.

I am assuming that the plant remains are not burnt or such so regardless of where they end up they are aiding the life cycle and returning to the land in some form. As such the spirit and purpose of the plant is still being observed and its function is still being completed.

Good point

Even to the degree of seeds being caught upon your clothing and being dropped elsewhere so the greater plant spirit survives.

On side not, They better bloody not, stupid freaking plant its hard enough and spreads stupid fast enough as it is.

I do think one aspect you may consider is do you view each plant as having an individual spirit or does the total plant have a grand spirit that represents the entire species of the given plant? I usually find that the Green Peoples or Standing Ones have a global spirit that permeates the entire forest or woodland not an individual spirit that is restricted to a given plant of bed of plants. Pulling some from a given area no more kills or damages that spirit than the winds that break the branches from the tree's kill the spirit of the tree's or a fire that sweeps across the landscape.

i think its the same as that native american idea you mentioned, ever individual plant has a spirit, then the species has a "father" spirit, then the wood land its self has a spirit then there a spirit of all wood lands and so on and so on.

I'm with Thalassa on this one.

Yes, you are killing individual plant spirits by tearing them up, but there's a very good reason. It's for the good of native plant species in the area. It's also for the good of the local bioregion. It's also for the good of local awareness and education regarding the area. So while you may not be using the actual carcasses of the dead plants, there are still very good reasons for doing what you are doing. And as MonSno says above, if the carcasses are going into any sort of compost or mulching system, then they are being used. Just because YOU aren't eating them doesn't mean that the land isn't.

If you take the time to touch base with the landspirit about this, you'll probably find that they're on board. The landspirits look at the big picture, and usually are not overly concerned with the destruction of individual spirits within their protection if it's for the greater good. You could also contact the 'grandparent spirit' of the species that you are pulling up, and you'll probably find that they also give their blessing for the work.
. You may also find that being in contact with the land spirits and grandparent spirits will cause them to pull back the individual plant spirits (depending on what species you're working with) before you tear them up, which would probably make you feel better about it.

This is something i was kinda thinking about maybe, making an offering to the species spirit, and asking for it to move any spirits from where in going to be doing the pulling.

but thanks everyone this has given me plenty to think about and asuaged my guilt alittle

[Jembru]

Re: Moral dilema

I think it would be worse to knowingly allow other species in the area to struggle and potentially vanish, for the benefit of one invasive species (that chances are, only entered the ecosystem because of human beings). If you really care about your local flora and fauna, then surely you'd gladly do what you must to benefit the largest proportion of species. Besides, the balsam will easily find an alternative area to dominate, whereas other species may struggle without your help.

This has come up already but is worth repeating: all light and no dark is NOT sacred, spiritual nor natural. I spent 8 years in a wiccan coven so I'm sorta biased by that in my opinions sometimes, but we called these kind of deep spiritual lessons 'mysteries', or rather, the realisation of the significance of these lessons, more precisely was a mystery. Progression to the next stage of spiritual development was discouraged until certain mysteries had been realised. It was a long time ago, but I think it was was at around second degree that we were encouraged to come to grips with the fact that life and nature wasn't all love and light and that accepting the darker aspects of the world, and (more importantly in our version of wicca) inside ourselves, was a deeply spiritual experience. Some members had learned this long before coming to wicca, then there is me, who lost sight of this very mystery until my recent trip away with a former covener (who also doesn't really practice wicca anymore, but has held onto her spirituality better than I have).

Newcomers to any form of spirituality quite often seem to embrace either too much light or too much dark. Over time, whether following a specific path, or one of their own making, most people seem to reach a similar understanding (lets ignore the fluffies for the time being, although I think they too have their uses), that just as the gods (or nature if you prefer) themselves don't think of the animals and their young, sometimes including human beings, that have to die horribly whenever there is a forest fire or draught or tsunami, we too will sometimes make decisions that cause harm but that will clear the way for potentially good things to come. (like the control of disease, or dominant species, allowing rare plants to flower, starting a whole new succession of growth... ). So I believe that to fully grasp and understand this, is to find sympathy with our gods and ultimately bring us closer to nature.

Oh and also, isn't balsam medicinal too? Couldn't you take some home with you and brew up some home remedies?