I always found worship to be not only uneccesary but kind of strange. When you worship a deity and then tell you to do something, you're just supposed to just do it and not question it? I'm not even sure if the deities even wanted worship and humans just said that just so they can control the populace more. Christianity for example. I don't think it's necessary to worship someone to go to the afterlife. I don't even think people need to really be religious in order to go to heaven or asgard or whatever good afterlife there is. Obviously where did dead people go before religion even existed on this planet? Did they all go to hell or purgatory or just wander around aimlessly as spirits? I think heaven is where good people go, religious or not. As long as you did more good than bad and have more good than evil in you, you're allowed entry After all I'd find it absurd that just because you don't worship a guy who healed others and died on the cross, that means you're not allowed entry into heaven? What sense does that make? I see the deities as not things to be worshiped but to be respected. I see Jesus as a role model to emulate. Basically an example of a good person. No Buddhist worships The Buddha but they hold him with high respect and understand his teachings? I don't even doubt the existence of the other gods and goddesses. I just don't really agree with certain rules and I certainly don't worship anyone or anything whether it's a deity or a human or whatever. I definitely don't think it's necessary to worship and do the will of the gods. I just feel like a slave to them if I worship them, even if they are good deities. One of the reasons why I don't care much for worship. When you worship, you do their will or follow their instructions and just do it no matter what. I feel all of the deities or supernatural people like Jesus or The Buddha or Yahweh or Odin should be respected but I highly doubt doing their will is necessary to enter into one of their heavens.
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Is worship necessary?
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Sr. Member
- Dec 2011
- 351
- Modern Constructionist Germanic Heathen with Shamanic Tendencies
- female
- West Coast Canada
- You know what it takes, so do it.
Re: Is worship necessary?
Originally posted by Alienist View PostI always found worship to be not only uneccesary but kind of strange. When you worship a deity and then tell you to do something, you're just supposed to just do it and not question it?
Originally posted by Alienist View PostI'm not even sure if the deities even wanted worship
Originally posted by Alienist View PostI don't think it's necessary to worship someone to go to the afterlife.
Originally posted by Alienist View PostObviously where did dead people go before religion even existed on this planet?
Originally posted by Alienist View PostWhat sense does that make?
So what are you trying to reason for yourself here? That you don't need religion to have a peaceful afterlife? According to my understanding, you don't. But if you're trying to reason that you don't have to make an effort on your own behalf to go to a specific, culturally relevant afterlife....I really can't agree with that.
It sounds like you have a lot of issues your Christianity, which you're fighting against, and that's fine. But why limit your ideas in this way? There is a lot more to the world than Christianity, and the same goes for afterlives.
Originally posted by Alienist View PostWhen you worship, you do their will or follow their instructions and just do it no matter what.
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Re: Is worship necessary?
You exaggerate. I don't have issues with Christianity and I even must note that I respect Jesus and the message. I only have issues with people who corrupted it for their own purposes and of Christianity is obviously not the only religion that has suffered this. I do respect the deities that deserve respect. However I don't worship them. It does seem like slavery to me. If I was Christian and Jesus came here am I supposed to just do whatever he says and not question it? If I was Hindu and Vishnu showed up, I'm supposed to do his will? I would also question as to why a god-like being would even want servants or worshipers. Perhaps they gain power over it, but I am not slave to any deity and serve no one. I have free will and like to help though. No deity is absolutely pure heart or perfect no matter how powerful they are. Perhaps there are multiple afterlives like heaven or asgard or the summerland, but I doubt being a slave to the deity is required to enter paradise. You just need to be good. That's what they are and what they are supposed to be. Role models. Someone to emulate. You look at Vishnu or The Buddha or Jesus or Yahweh or Odin or Heracles and you try to do selfless good and even heroic things like they did, not bow down to them and obey their every command.
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Re: Is worship necessary?
I think part of the problem here is that you're hung up on the idea that worship must equal bowing down, being commanded about, and serving without ever questioning, perhaps in the hope that doing so will get you to some nice afterlife. I can tell you now, a lot of people who would say they worship their deities are not doing anything that really resembles that. That's your own hang up - it's not what everyone considers worship to be.
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Re: Is worship necessary?
How many times has Yahweh commanded many followers to worship him and no one else. Where he basically says "You WILL obey me and my instructions" There was also the absurd notion that if you didn't worship Jesus, you'd end up in hell and obviously no one wants to go to hell, so feel like a slave to the deity, do you not? You may respect them but it isn't necessary to worship them to go the good afterlife. They are just guides to show you a good way of going to the afterlife. Now however you may not enter into their afterlife because you broke a few rules but I doubt you'd be damned if you didn't follow a certain religion. You'd end up somewhere else but the afterlife of Yahweh or Odin is like a house. Obviously when you want someone to come to your house, you expect them to follow your rules, right? Same way with the deities. You have to follow their rules to enter their "house" so to speak and I suppose I could understand why someone would worship a certain deity to enter a certain realm. A strong hearty warrior would feel most comfortable in the realms of Asgard. Others would just like to reincarnate to a higher life form. I was wondering if any of you felt like you were slaves to these deities. What your basically saying is worship isn't slavery but it's honor and devotion to a certain person or deity Perhaps worship is just another way to enter another realm. You'd enter into a good realm regardless of your religion as long as you were good in life. However if you were bad, you accumulated too much negative energy to enter the realm and you are sent back somewhere else. But a good person will be in a good afterlife anyway though. But I guess if you not only wanted to enter into a good afterlife but hang out with the gods and feast with them or whatever I guess you'd have to show devotion.
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Time Lord Apostle
- Mar 2013
- 1541
- Christian, worships Yahweh and Jesus, but doesn't care if you don't.
- male
Re: Is worship necessary?
Worshiping something doesn't make you its slave.
If a friend of mine I respect and love asks me to do something, I will do it.
If my God I love and respect wants me to do something, I will do it.
And I will think about it.
Belief, worship, and devotion aren't slavery. Its a choice. Its choosing to follow something larger than yourself.
Oh, and I think you can go to heaven without high-fiveing Jesus to, so....
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Sr. Member
- Dec 2011
- 351
- Modern Constructionist Germanic Heathen with Shamanic Tendencies
- female
- West Coast Canada
- You know what it takes, so do it.
Re: Is worship necessary?
Originally posted by Alienist View PostYou exaggerate. I don't have issues with Christianity
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Sr. Member
- May 2013
- 128
- Eclectic Wicca
- female
- Aboard the Tardis in the Narnia of Tattoine
- Veni Vidi Vici
Re: Is worship necessary?
Hi,
My name is Serria and I'm a Wiccan worshiping the Greek Titan Goddess of the Moon, Selene. I know that she chose me. The relationship we share is like that of a mother daughter and while I don't pray to her regularly or anything, our relationship is lovely.
I am personally a fan of the Buddhist version of reincarnation that when I am a whole person, I will be united with the Source. I think the Source can take the form of any God.
If you have a doubt about their feelings toward being worshiped, you could always ask them. Believe it or not, they are very open to most conversation (depending on how their day is going and which God you actually call).
I know that there is a form of a Christian God because I do believe I have experienced Him but I don't think he is the right form of the Source for me. I feel Selene is closer to me and always had a hand in my life. She is everything to me and I love Her.
As a side note, I'd like to say that you need to tone your posts down a bit. I don't mean any offense but you are coming across very angry and aggressive. It's just a suggestion....A Happy Little Wiccan:^^:
Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat
Because who needs a life when you have a chatroom.
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Member
- May 2013
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- Nonspecific Sorcerer, knower of the gray path and sometimes a shaman exorcist.
- male
- Michigan
- You might not always like what I say, but I often get to the core of the matter.
Re: Is worship necessary?
If you're seeking discussion you need to tone it down a bit. You're being defensive and angry. Worship is not slavery or giving up yourself far as I am concerned, I leave small offerings, a chuckle or two and a nod at a particular statue now and then, and that is it. I know when the , source, is aware of me and when it is not. Simple as that.
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Sr. Member
- May 2012
- 221
- Chaotic/Shamanic/Eclectic Witch
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- Michigan, US
- "At times I wonder; at times I wander; at times, both."
Re: Is worship necessary?
Alienist, I'm going to assume you've run into some of the really bad Christians (as distinguished from those who aren't douchebags about their faith but are genuine people who use it to better themselves, etc.) or you wouldn't be ranting. They're plentiful and easy to run into, but not necessarily a good reflection on the religion. My best advice is, don't let that affect your view on other religions, and don't let it stain your view of Christianity too much. The Judeo-Christian-Muslim branch of religion is far more likely to get into that whole slavery-to-their-god thing among people who wax too fundamentalist about it, simply because they are monotheists worshiping a jealous/possessive god who base their religion on texts that are full of insanity and war and genocide that make said god look bipolar at best, evil at worst. The good Christians are those who ignore God's little genocidal spouts in the Old Testament or may not even really be aware of how bad it got (a lot of them are really shocked when you tell them some of the more gruesome stuff therein contained) - they fell in love with Jesus and his teachings about grace and redemption, and more or less shrug off the insane parts. The bad ones read the bipolar-war-and-genocide-and-judgment stuff and go "Woohoo, license to be a total jackass to everybody!" That's just how life goes.
Don't let this tint your view on other religions. Paganism, for one, is polytheistic, pantheistic or even non-theistic (I know, I probably used the wrong word) in nature. There is no pressure to serve any particular god, and a much more open-minded view of things in general. We pagan types tend to be pretty laid back as a whole. Worship is more or less optional.
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Silver Member
- May 2013
- 2847
- Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
- West Virginia
- Can't never did nothing till it tried!
Re: Is worship necessary?
Originally posted by Alienist View PostI always found worship to be not only uneccesary but kind of strange.
When you worship a deity and then tell you to do something, you're just supposed to just do it and not question it?
I'm not even sure if the deities even wanted worship and humans just said that just so they can control the populace more.
Christianity for example. I don't think it's necessary to worship someone to go to the afterlife. I don't even think people need to really be religious in order to go to heaven or asgard or whatever good afterlife there is.
Obviously where did dead people go before religion even existed on this planet?
Did they all go to hell or purgatory or just wander around aimlessly as spirits?
I think heaven is where good people go, religious or not
As long as you did more good than bad and have more good than evil in you, you're allowed entry After all I'd find it absurd that just because you don't worship a guy who healed others and died on the cross, that means you're not allowed entry into heaven?
What sense does that make? I see the deities as not things to be worshiped but to be respected.
I definitely don't think it's necessary to worship and do the will of the gods.
I just feel like a slave to them if I worship them, even if they are good deities.
One of the reasons why I don't care much for worship. When you worship, you do their will or follow their instructions and just do it no matter what.
I feel all of the deities or supernatural people like Jesus or The Buddha or Yahweh or Odin should be respected but I highly doubt doing their will is necessary to enter into one of their heavens.
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I will state that none of the gods / goddesses I am sworn and bound to require me to supplicate myself before them. That I may face the earth for dealings with the chthonic gods / goddesses or stand with arms raised and face the heavens when I speak to Celestial gods / goddesses is not supplicating myself to or before them but recognizing where I perceive them to reside.I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!
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PF Ordo Hereticus
- Mar 2009
- 8674
- Jedi
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- The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.
Re: Is worship necessary?
Another point is that even the OT LoH could be argued with under the right conditions. Didn't mean you were going to win but unless you were actively rude to him, you could at times question/argue with him just fine. The part of the Sodom and Gomorrah storyline that everyone generally ognores when pulling it up is that before the LoH goes on a city killing spree, he talks to Abraham about it. Abraham challenges him again and again and again and gets concessions
guilt tripping Godlife itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
"But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."
John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper
"You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."
Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis
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Re: Is worship necessary?
I just thought the whole idea of worship was to submit to them. I guess everyone has their own version of worshiping. Again I'm not bashing Christianity or any religion for that matter. I'm questioning certain things. I've seen bad Buddhists too. Then again they aren't really Buddhists if they act opposite of what they are supposed to do. Anyone can claim to be Buddhist or a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu but it's another story to actually act like one. I am just looking for a certain clarification here. You are basically saying that worship isn't really submission but showing love devotion and honor to a certain deity. In that case I could understand. The deities are there for guidance and to give you vast strength and knowledge. They aren't there just so you may bow down to them because they are teachers, not slave masters.
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Re: Is worship necessary?
Originally posted by Alienist View PostI just thought the whole idea of worship was to submit to them. I guess everyone has their own version of worshiping. Again I'm not bashing Christianity or any religion for that matter. I'm questioning certain things. I've seen bad Buddhists too. Then again they aren't really Buddhists if they act opposite of what they are supposed to do. Anyone can claim to be Buddhist or a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu but it's another story to actually act like one. I am just looking for a certain clarification here. You are basically saying that worship isn't really submission but showing love devotion and honor to a certain deity. In that case I could understand. The deities are there for guidance and to give you vast strength and knowledge. They aren't there just so you may bow down to them because they are teachers, not slave masters.
Some worshipers do submit to their deities, but that's not the same as becoming mindless slaves. Submission (at least in the general pagan context) brings with it the idea of consent. As in, you agree to submit to deity to X degree. You still have rights, too, and can exercise them as in any relationship. That's not to say that deities aren't powerful and won't throw their weight around if they want something out of you, of course. I have said, "NO, NO, NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT!" in response to requests before and while I can't say the refusal was always met with pleasure, the sky didn't fall down. (Well, okay, I was a bit more respectful than that, but I try to be like that with everyone. )
With submission also generally comes love and devotion. I can't speak for the monotheistic faiths, but most pagans don't seem to establish relationship with deity from a place of fear. I mean, most pagans do have a small fear of their deities, since deities can be pretty darn scary. It's just that fear isn't predominant.
Everyone's relationship with deity is different. For some, deities are slave masters. For others, deities are friends. Deities can also be lovers, parents, children, mob bosses, enemies, teachers, supervisors, coworkers, naggers, and just about anything else in the context of paganism. It seems that quite a lot of the deities in the world work at the level that's best for the devotee. If you do better approaching deities as friends, as long as you're respectful, you'll probably find a few who will be, on some level, your friend. Or if you do better with supervisors, then you'll eventually find deities who are willing to take that approach with you.Blog: http://thestarsafire.tumblr.com
Kuchi wa wazawai no moto (the mouth is the origin of disasters)
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Sr. Member
- May 2013
- 142
- Greco Roman Polytheist and Dionysus Devotee
- male
- IL
- There is no cure for madness when the cure itself is mad-Euripides
Re: Is worship necessary?
This whole debate centers on how you define worship. Most traditional pagan traditions will tell you that worship is votive based. This means that it is a gift giving, like friends at Christmas. I make a libation to Dionysus not because I fear Him and not because I am compelled to, but because I love Him and want to express my love. In turn the Gods express Their love through blessings and guidance. In this view humans do not play an obvious subordinate role in the Cosmos.
If you frame it like you originally stated, in a Christian context, then the whole thing changes. Worship is mandatory in Christianity because if you don't St. Peter slams those gates shut. Obviously, this view subordinates humans.
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