Questions about Islam (Ask Away!) [Archive]

Dumuzi

12 Oct 2010, 13:55

I do have to say, I was very proud to be able to politely share that I have a friend in Egypt, and the way I have seen him live his religion, and not only his respect for women, but the fact that his parents are *both* professionals. It honestly made my day ;)

Aww, that was really awesome of you to say. Totally made MY day! :)

Obviously, that's a rather interesting mash of misinformation, which is common in conservative media in America right now, so would you care to comment?

Ha, it's OK.

Your guest was actually correct. Amongst the many things Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was, besides being a messenger of god, was also being a fighter.

But the question here is, when and why were Muslims told to fight?

The period from the first time Muhammad received revelation, till it ended and he died, was about 23 years. The first 13 years of those 23 years, Muslims suffered from oppression and persecution for their religion and were driven out of their homes. I am sure as a Mormon you know what it's like to be persecuted because of your religion, especially because of your early history.

I am not going to go into all the verses in the Qur'an that talk about fighting, but I'd like to share with you a couple of verses that show to you the reason we fight, and why Muhammad picked up his sword to fight against oppression and persecution, if that's OK with you.

It's not about believing in peace or not. We are peaceful towards those that wish to be peaceful towards us, as the Qur'an (http://islam.thetruecall.com/Quran_Chapter_8:61.htm) puts it.

So why were Muslim given the permission to fight after 13 years? Here are the verses I want to share:

Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.

[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. [22:39-40]

I'd like to point out that the verse isn't just talking about Muslims being persecuted because it mentions monasteries, churches and synagogues even BEFORE it mentions mosques.

So yes, Muhammad lifted up his sword to fight, but he did so for several reasons, including defending people similar to your guest's ancestors.

;)

Gwen

12 Oct 2010, 14:10

I had the pleasure of taking a dhikr class from a Moroccan Sufi sheik last semester in seminary. He said that people like to think only of Allah as good, but that that risks saying to Allah, "If you are only good, why do you let these bad things happen to me?" He said that love is the "dessert" of Allah but that you have to eat your vegetables too--that Allah contains and does all things, both those that we perceive as good and those that we perceive as bad. (He took this as far as saying that if you brag that Allah is good and because you are obedient, He will only send you good things--then Allah will say, "Oh, you will tell me what I can do?" and send bad things until you accept everything as from Him.)

What do you think of this theology? I have no idea whether it's Sufi-specific (or even Moroccan-Sufi-specific), common throughout Islam, or somewhere in between.

Dumuzi

12 Oct 2010, 17:24

What do you think of this theology? I have no idea whether it's Sufi-specific (or even Moroccan-Sufi-specific), common throughout Islam, or somewhere in between.

I'd first like to point out that being Sufi is not a different sect than Islam. There are a lot of respectful Sufi scholars out there, and it was thanks to the earlier Sufi scholars that Islam spread in most of Asia.

Granted, there are people that deviated from Islam, but we don't consider those to be true Sufis so to speak.

I do somehow agree with the quote you shared with us. Here is how we look at it:

As Muslims we accept everything from god. A Muslim who only worships god when he is rich but then rejects him when he is poor, is not a real Muslim. Likewise, a Muslim who keeps praying to god when they are poor but forgets about god when they are rich, is also not a real Muslim.

It's just that sometimes we love something when it is actually bad for us (like lots of money that might corrupt an individual) and sometimes we hate things that might end up being something really good.

Meh, now that I read what I wrote I don't know if it's really related to what you said. But yeah, hope that made sense!

Gwen

12 Oct 2010, 18:44

I know that Sufism is Islam--I've just been under the impression that it's a branch (or a series of branches) within Islam. Is that not strictly so?

Your response does make sense. I've been curious because in Christianity there are many approaches to "why does God let bad things happen to good people?" including that everything that we perceive as good and as bad comes from God for a purpose; that God isn't all-powerful and s**t happens sometimes that He can't stop; that the Devil is involved and powerful; that God is all-powerful but that in choosing to abdicate some power so that we can have freewill He allows us to face either the fruit of our choices or the "evil" actions of others... etc. I was curious how common the "it all comes from God" perspective (which I've heard some Christians criticize as overly fatalistic, not that I agree with them) was in Islam.

Shahaku

13 Oct 2010, 07:37

Islam does branch off from Judaism right? As in they came before Islam just like they came before Christianity?

If so, does that mean that whole group shares the same creation stories? And what about the old testament of the Bible? Is it used in Judaism and Islam as well? Sorry I know some of these questions relate outside of Islam, but I've just never understood exactly how the three fit together.

Dumuzi

13 Oct 2010, 12:13

Hi Shahaku!

First of all, welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy it here :)

Islam does branch off from Judaism right? As in they came before Islam just like they came before Christianity?

Nope.

I understand that this is something that a lot of people don't know about Islam. And bare in mind that I'm only explaining to you the Muslim point of view about this issue. ;)

Islam is not a new religion. Islam is the religion that was preached by all prophets of god. We believe that God revealed the same message to all of his prophets to convey to all humans. The prophets of god were all Muslim and preached the same message all the way from Adam till Muhammad.

Muhammad is only the last prophet of a chain of prophets, and was only confirming the same message that was preached by all the prophets before him. Those include Moses, Jesus, Abraham, David, Isaac, Noah and many, many more.

In that sense Moses and Jesus were Muslim and preached about the religion of Islam. Islam means Submission (to god) in Arabic by the way.

You have to realize that Moses never spoke about a religion called Judaism. Likewise, Jesus never mentioned the word Christianity. Those are labels and religions that were created after them. However, we believe their original message was that of submission to the will of god.

If so, does that mean that whole group shares the same creation stories? And what about the old testament of the Bible? Is it used in Judaism and Islam as well? Sorry I know some of these questions relate outside of Islam, but I've just never understood exactly how the three fit together.

We do believe in the Torah and the Gospel as books revealed by god to Moses and Jesus. But we don't believe those are the same books as the Old and New Testament. Those are books that were man made, after the time of Moses and Jesus.

It is true that there are similar stories in the Bible and in the Qur'an. But you'll notice they are also different. We believe the Qur'an is explaining and setting right the truth that was distorted by some people in the Bible.

For example, both the Bible and the Qur'an speak about the miraculous birth of Jesus Christ, however both books give different accounts and details about the story.

Hope that clears things up for you!

Shahaku

16 Oct 2010, 18:40

What would you say are the basic tenets of Islam? Christianity has the ten commandments, Buddhism the four noble truths and eight fold path, Wicca has the Wiccan Rede. What would be Islam's equivilant?

What are the most major stories? Muhammad obviously would be a major person, but I don't really know the stories. I remember something about him flying off on a ?pegasus? (flying horse) to heaven or something like that. Sorry if I butchered that story, it's just all I have as a reference.

Most of what I've run across when I searched on the net in the past seems a lot of defense against extremists, but I'm interested in learning more of the basics and then intricasies of the religion (of all religions in general actually).

Dumuzi

17 Oct 2010, 09:29

What would you say are the basic tenets of Islam? Christianity has the ten commandments, Buddhism the four noble truths and eight fold path, Wicca has the Wiccan Rede. What would be Islam's equivilant?

The first thing that comes to mind is that Islam is to believe and do good deeds.

This tenet, of belief and doing good deeds, is repeated many times in the Qur'an. You see, Islam in Arabic means submission (to the will of god). So worshiping god in Islam has two parts, to believe and to do good actions. Good actions include the acts of worship and how we treat people around us.

And we do have similar ideas that can also be found in Christianity, Buddhism and even the Wiccan Rede. One Hadith (saying of Muhammad) mentions "Let there be no harm and no harming".

However if I had to sum it all up, because as you can see I could just keep going on and on, I'd say that the one basic tenet of Islam that makes the difference between a Muslim and a non Muslim is that we believe that:

"There is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is his servant and his messenger."

In a very famous Hadith, Muhammad tells us about the tenets of our belief or faith. And those are that we believe in:

1. Allah (the all Merciful, the ever Merciful, the One, the Unique, the Creator, the First, the Last, the Just etc)

2. All of his Angels

3. All of his Books (Qur'an, Gospel, Torah etc)

4. All of his Messengers (Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Moses, Abraham, Noah etc)

5. The Last Day (Day of judgement and the afterlife etc)

6. Fate or God's will whether it is good or bad.

What are the most major stories?

Hmmm, I can't really think of one major story, there are so may accounts mentioned in the Qur'an relating to a lot of prophets. And by the way, Moses is the prophet most mentioned in the Qur'an. But I'm sure you'll find a lot of interesting accounts mentioned in the Qur'an :)

Corvus

17 Oct 2010, 16:08

Arnt the five pillars islam's commandments?

MaskedOne

17 Oct 2010, 16:22

What would you say are the basic tenets of Islam? Christianity has the ten commandments ...

Wouldn't the 10 Commandments still be considered applicable? I don't see anything in them that would merit overturning by a later Prophet. Now Deuteronomy and Leviticus in their entirety may not be held to but I'd think the 10 Commandments would gain acknowledgement from all 3 sects serving the God of Abraham.

Heh, one of these days, I need to stop cycling through the dozen or so names, titles and variations that I know of for this Power and stick to one of them.

Shahaku

18 Oct 2010, 05:37

So, Dumuzi or anyone else who has studied Islam, with so many stories, do you have a favorite? If so, what is it?

Dumuzi

18 Oct 2010, 10:06

Arnt the five pillars islam's commandments?

Think of them as pillars on which Islam is built. Now the pillars of a building aren't exactly the same as the building itself, right? ;)

We achieve the goals of Islam through the pillars of Islam. (Some of which don't become obligatory in certain situations by the way. The sick don't have to fast, the poor don't pay the Zakah, both sick and poor don't have to perform the Haj and so on)

Wouldn't the 10 Commandments still be considered applicable? I don't see anything in them that would merit overturning by a later Prophet.

You make a very good point MaskedOne. :)

That's why I said there are similarities that can be found in lots of religions. And there are a lot of good things that can be found in many religions.

And like you said, the ten commandments do go with Islam and not against it. So Islam is just there to confirm those rules.

So, Dumuzi or anyone else who has studied Islam, with so many stories, do you have a favorite? If so, what is it?

Hmm, it's really hard for me to pick a favorite!

But I can think of a couple of them that I think are nice.

1. How Abraham finds God (http://quran.com/6/74-83) by pondering other things which people used to worship, as the starts, the moon and the sun. The equivalent of it today for me would be to logically and critically think about other religions, which will end up leading you to the religion of Islam. Which is what I personally try to do!

2. Abraham and the Idols. (http://quran.com/21/51-70) In this story the Qur'an shows that you should not follow a religion just because you are born into it, and it happens to be the religion of your ancestors. Rather, you should follow reason and your mind. It's a really interesting story that takes place when Abraham was younger.

3. Moses and Al-Khidr. (http://quran.com/18/65-82) Another really interesting story about how things may happen in life which we may not understand, but end up being actually good things.

I'm sure if you ask other Muslims, they will have other answers ;)

Corvus

18 Oct 2010, 10:26

Why was muhammid the last prophet why didn't god send more? We could always use a prophet don't you think? How much better would the world be if we had another prophet? Does islam have a messieh?

MaskedOne

18 Oct 2010, 11:06

Is Muhammad the last prophet or is he the last one that we've encountered to date?

Dumuzi

18 Oct 2010, 16:38

Is Muhammad the last prophet or is he the last one that we've encountered to date?

Yes, he is the last prophet.

The Qur'an says:

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. [33:40]

There's also lots sayings about that topic and here is one of them:

Narated By Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets."

So as you can see, the message and religion of Islam has been completed and perfected by the last messenger, Muhammad.

Why was muhammid the last prophet why didn't god send more? We could always use a prophet don't you think? How much better would the world be if we had another prophet? Does islam have a messieh?

He is the last one because the message has already been completed. Read the Hadith above and also the following verse where God says:

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. [5:3]

And also in the very last sermon of Muhammad before his death he said the following:

"... Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

So the religion is complete. And the message has been conveyed to us. However, it is up to each one of us whether we want to accept the message or reject it. There is big emphasis on personal responsibility in Islam. And the job of the messengers of god is done. They were all preparing mankind for the final message, and that one was completed with the Qur'an.

So here is the religion of Islam, completed and perfected for us. Some people will choose to follow it, and others will choose to reject it. ;)

Rowanwood

24 Oct 2010, 06:26

So I know last time I asked a question, it went badly -- but bear with me here. I was reading a pregnancy board and this question comes directly from that.

First, I understand that in most Abrahamic religions, premarital sex is bad and so are babies out of wedlock, especially made with someone not of the same faith. I also know that these often result in shotgun weddings in traditional families or just a lot of shame. But according to this poster, a Muslim family will consider a child created this way an orphan and refuse to acknowledge it's existence.

The original poster was the pregnant woman in question; white and non-Muslim. Several women claiming to be Muslim on the board attacked her for "getting herself pregnant" (even though she'd been in a sexual and romantic relationship with the baby daddy for 3 years) and told her she was at fault. They also said she just better deal with it, because she didn't deserve any help with her child from it's father and father's family because she was, in essence, a whore.

Is this true? Is it a religious thing? Or is this maybe more of a cultural thing and this man is "hiding" behind religion as to not have to take responsibility for his part in making this baby?

Or is the original poster and her attackers just having a good case of internet drama?

Dumuzi

24 Oct 2010, 08:14

So I know last time I asked a question, it went badly -- but bear with me here. I was reading a pregnancy board and this question comes directly from that.

I'm glad you are asking questions again, and I guess fiiiiiine I'll bear with you :p

First, I understand that in most Abrahamic religions, premarital sex is bad and so are babies out of wedlock, especially made with someone not of the same faith. I also know that these often result in shotgun weddings in traditional families or just a lot of shame. But according to this poster, a Muslim family will consider a child created this way an orphan and refuse to acknowledge it's existence.

Before I go into explaining the Muslim point of view, I'd like to explain why they are behaving that way. They want to punish an innocent baby for the crime of an adult who committed adultery. They wish to hide that crime, but if they acknowledge the baby then they can't hide the crime.

The original poster was the pregnant woman in question; white and non-Muslim. Several women claiming to be Muslim on the board attacked her for "getting herself pregnant" (even though she'd been in a sexual and romantic relationship with the baby daddy for 3 years) and told her she was at fault.

BOTH were at fault. I'm assuming the man was Muslim in this situation? If that's the case then there is bigger blame on him because he did something against his religion.

If she is non Muslim, why are people using Islam against her? Unless, they are just saying that she shouldn't have been with a man who doesn't really want to be with her and would leave her right away. In that case, yes she was wrong, shouldn't have let a man get what he wants from her. It goes both ways though, he shouldn't have been with a woman if he's just gonna leave her in the end.

Is this true? Is it a religious thing? Or is this maybe more of a cultural thing and this man is "hiding" behind religion as to not have to take responsibility for his part in making this baby?

You'll notice all this discussion is about the man and the woman. Who's fault is it? What should have been done? blah blah blah

Who is the only person not to be blamed in this situation? The baby. And who is the only person that will actually be punished in this situation? The baby.

I've looked this up on several Muslim websites and here's what scholars have to say about this situation:

- Secondly, as for the child born out of wedlock, like every other child, he or she is born sinless; it does not carry the stigma of the sin of the father or mother or both. A basic principle in Islamic justice is that no one bears the blame for another’s fault. A child born as a result of an illegitimate relationship suffers no adverse discrimination on account of his parents’ sin.

- “The children born out of wedlock deserve all the care they need as children; thus you should provide them with all the requirements and elements to make them succeed in this life. They are not responsible for the past deeds of their parents.

- ... and it is not lawful to hold against him (the baby) a crime which he did not commit, so no distinction should be made between him and other children born in wedlock, for that is injustice which Allah has made forbidden, and the discrimination between him and others can make children born from adultery into enemies of their societies, that held them responsible for a crime committed by others and punished them for it, and that is something no religion nor mind can agree with, and Allah knows best.

(The last one I translated myself)

So I'd say they are hiding from their culture in refusing to take care of the baby. But you can't hide from Allah.

Or is the original poster and her attackers just having a good case of internet drama?

Yep, that too.

Honestly, I think it's just women fighting each other. They're probably all trolls ;)

Medusa

24 Oct 2010, 12:54

What, if any, is the view of using animal parts in medicine? Specifically something like pig valves for hearts etc?

Dumuzi

24 Oct 2010, 17:48

What, if any, is the view of using animal parts in medicine? Specifically something like pig valves for hearts etc?

As long as it's life saving or a medical necessity, and there are no other options then it's OK. Remember that even the no pig eating rule has exceptions, like if you are starving and the only food you have is pork. In that case you can eat just enough to save you life.

He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit] - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. [16:115]

So using pig valves or life saving medication that has alcohol in it and so on becomes an obligation because it will save your life. Allah is the oft-forgiving and the most merciful after all :)

Shahaku

25 Oct 2010, 10:35

Two questions:

1) Sprouting off the the question about pregnancy out of wedlock: So, I understand that not all Muslim cultures are the same in their treatment of women. As in, I believe it's been indicated that you don't believe in subjugating women as is done in parts of the middle east, but is there any similarity when it comes to issues like adultery, divorce, and widowhood? And if scripture doesn't allow for the way that those people treat women, then how do they justify it?

2) Sprouting off the medical post: What if something isn't necessarily necessary, like a person who could use a blood transfusion or other transplant, but it isn't necessary to their life? Like it may extend it a little, or make living easier, but it isn't necessary. Especially with modern technology, people can live for some time on dialysis or a pace maker instead of getting a kidney or heart transplant.

Dumuzi

25 Oct 2010, 11:16

1) Sprouting off the the question about pregnancy out of wedlock: So, I understand that not all Muslim cultures are the same in their treatment of women. As in, I believe it's been indicated that you don't believe in subjugating women as is done in parts of the middle east, but is there any similarity when it comes to issues like adultery, divorce, and widowhood? And if scripture doesn't allow for the way that those people treat women, then how do they justify it?

OK, the issue of adultery on one hand is VERY different than the issues of divorce and widowhood on the other hand.

In Islam adultery is a very big no no. However, the treatment of BOTH males and females who commit adultery is exactly the same. So there is no discrimination here since they are equal no matter what their gender is.

Divorce is allowed in Islam. It is true that out of all things permissible in Islam divorce is the least liked, but still it is not forbidden. The Qu'ran gave many rights to women who are divorced. Probably, before any other legal system did the same for women. I'll provide you with links if you want to learn more about that. (Since it's a big topic)

Same goes to a widowed woman. Just a FYI, with the exception of one, all of Muhammad's wives were previously married before him (widowers and one was divorced)

As for the scripture question. Why do people lie when it goes against scripture? Why do the steal? Why do they cheat? See where I'm going with this?

2) Sprouting off the medical post: What if something isn't necessarily necessary, like a person who could use a blood transfusion or other transplant, but it isn't necessary to their life? Like it may extend it a little, or make living easier, but it isn't necessary. Especially with modern technology, people can live for some time on dialysis or a pace maker instead of getting a kidney or heart transplant.

That's why I said life saving or a medical necessity. All those things are allowed.

Actually, it's not just a matter of something being allowed or not forbidden, but god willing Allah will reward those people that donate blood for example greatly, for helping to save a human's life. According to the Qur'an, if you save the life of one human, it will be like saving the life of all mankind. :)

Gwen

25 Oct 2010, 11:35

The adultery question brings up another one for me: how is adultery defined? I know that Muhammad had multiple wives, so polygamy/polyamory seems to be permitted. What about mutually consensual swinging or polyamory that doesn't involve adding the person permanently to the marriage?

Dumuzi

25 Oct 2010, 11:56

The adultery question brings up another one for me: how is adultery defined?

To make it as simple and as clear as possible:

Adultery is sex outside of marriage. In other words, in Islam, you can only have sex with someone you are married to.

Shahaku

25 Oct 2010, 12:48

Juniper

25 Oct 2010, 14:04

Sorry if this is a repeat question.

Is traditional garb required for women who are muslim? Or is it just a cultural thing? For instance, an american woman chose to become muslim, but did not wear the garb, would she be frowned upon by other muslims?

shadow1982

25 Oct 2010, 14:16

Hello,

I did a religious history course a few years back that said the word Jihad basically translates into struggle in English, what does the word actually mean to you as a Muslim and to Muslims in general? Do you think it is something which has been misunderstood by people who don't know much about Islam, or corrupted by fundamentalists?

Dumuzi

25 Oct 2010, 14:54

I would love the links, but to be a little more specific, I'm not so much interested in a human rights arguement as a philosophical/religious one. It's not that human rights aren't important, it's just that that isn't the information I'm interested in right this moment.

Could you please explain what you mean by philosophical/religious specifically? I want to provide you with the information you are interested in!
;)

Sorry if this is a repeat question.

Is traditional garb required for women who are muslim? Or is it just a cultural thing? For instance, an american woman chose to become muslim, but did not wear the garb, would she be frowned upon by other muslims?

Depends on what you mean by traditional garb. In Islam you can wear what you want, whatever culture it comes from, as long as it covers the body except the face and the hands. Plus, the material can't be too tight or transparent :p But that goes without saying.

There are a lot of Muslims who do not follow this. They are still Muslim and everything, but it would be considered as a sin. So the least one can do is try to wear more modestly.

(My mother, by the way, doesn't cover her head but shhhhh :p )

Hello,

I did a religious history course a few years back that said the word Jihad basically translates into struggle in English, what does the word actually mean to you as a Muslim and to Muslims in general? Do you think it is something which has been misunderstood by people who don't know much about Islam, or corrupted by fundamentalists?

You are right!

Jihad is the Arabic word for struggle, striving and so on.

For me, the way I understand it, is that there are two types of Jihad. The major Jihad, which is an intrinsic struggle against your self, because we have to be strong and in control of our self. And the minor Jihad, which is an extrinsic struggle against other people that wish to harm myself or others.

The word has been misunderstood (or perhaps deliberately twisted) by people who don't know much about Islam, in my opinion. If you went to school for a couple of years you'd understand what the word means in Arabic. How that word is twisted into holy war, I don't know.

It is true, however, that we as Muslim must strive and struggle against others in terms of fighting against them in certain situations. But that has nothing to do with forcing religion on others because the Qur'an itself speaks against it. Actually, the reason we are told to fight is to stop others from forcing religion on people and oppressing them because of this, the Qur'an says:

And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"[4:75]

I don't wanna make this too long, but I also speak about this in another post that you can read here (http://www.paganforum.com/index.php?topic=96.msg1816#msg1816).

Juniper

25 Oct 2010, 15:30

.... as long as it covers the body except the face and the hands....
This bit in particular is what I was getting at. :)

There are a lot of Muslims who do not follow this. They are still Muslim and everything, but it would be considered as a sin. So the least one can do is try to wear more modestly.

It's not something that other Muslims would stare and/or scold at then? I can understand the modest dress part. Would jeans (not skin tight ones) and a t-shirt be considered not modest enough? Just to clarify, I have been speaking from a "in public" perspective. I assume that these dress codes do not apply to within the home?

Dumuzi

25 Oct 2010, 15:48

This bit in particular is what I was getting at. :)

okie :)

It's not something that other Muslims would stare and/or scold at then?

Depends on what you are wearing and where you are. Wish there was a more specific answer, but generally speaking, if a woman is not walking around in a miniskirt or showing off her shoulders or back etc. then no one really stares. But even that, in some places, wouldn't be considered 'stare worthy'.

I can understand the modest dress part. Would jeans (not skin tight ones) and a t-shirt be considered not modest enough?

Again, it depends on where you are but I'd say that in most places that is considered OK.

Just to clarify, I have been speaking from a "in public" perspective. I assume that these dress codes do not apply to within the home?

Yep. They only apply when a woman is in front of a 'strange adult male'.

As in they don't apply in front of other women, children and first degree male relatives (Your father, brother, uncle, grandfather, son, grandson, nephew ... ) Oh and your husband of course! Can't believe I was gonna forget that hehehe

Raphaeline

31 Oct 2010, 13:33

Dumuzi

31 Oct 2010, 17:56

I'm interested in knowing more about Sharia law; this is a phrase I've heard before and know a tiny bit about, but it's come up in the dialog here concerning whether or not Americans should be threatened by Muslims and Islam. This video specifically (http://www.morningstartv.com/oak-initiative/shariah-law-and-constitution) is currently a topic of discussion. I'd like to be better informed before I contribute.

First of all I must say that I think the opinions of the man mentioned in the video are utterly disgusting. He uses fabrications and scare tactics in order to support his opinion. What he says is very dangerous.

He begins by saying, "I believe every Muslim should be allowed to worship freely." However, towards the end he says, "Islam itself is not a religion ... it should not be protected under the first Amendment."

And even says, "We've been infiltrated by people of the Islamic faith."

While this doesn't concern me personally, it should be a matter of great concern to Americans. Imagine if you Rafe decided to become Muslim for whatever reason. According to the opinions expressed in this video, that decision would automatically strip you from the rights provided to you by your country. You'd be considered as a threat that has 'infiltrated' the country.

And yet, it is Shari'ah law that is accused of taking away your rights. I find this ironic.

He mentions the Fort Hood shooting and explains why the shooter committed this crime. He says, and I'm quoting, "... and when he went into that facility and started killing people he was doing that because he is an adherent of the dictates of the Qur'an and the Shari'a law."

This claim is not supported by any proof whatsoever.

This is the type of lies made about Islam that I was talking about. And that is exactly what people use when attacking Islam. The problem is, he isn't just attacking the religion of Islam, but he is attacking and suggesting taking away the rights of American citizens that happen to be Muslim.

What IS Sharia law?

I apologize for the really long part above, when you just wanted your two questions answered! But it's just that I thought those are very dangerous words and it pissed me off.

So what is Shari'a law? Simply, it's the law and the rules derived from the Qur'an and the Sunnah of prophet Muhammad.

You could just say Muslim or Islamic law if the Arabic word is too confusing.

But chances are, whatever they tell you is shari'ah law is probably not. So be careful and don't believe everything they claim about Islam.

Is it a threat to America in some way?

I have no reason to believe so, in some ways it would actually benefit America. But it is more complicated than that.

The rules that fall under that law are very diverse and also flexible. Difference of opinion exists within it and is allowed by Islam. That is, while the Qur'an itself is considered to be 100% from god and divine, the rules that scholars have derived from it are in some cases not set in stone.

On the other hand, would these rules be a threat to the American way of life? Again, it depends.

If you asked me that question 40 years ago or even before that I would say yes it is. Because under Islamic law all people are equal whatever their skin color is. Muhammad said, " ... a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

A lot of Americans back in those days would have considered this rule as unamerican. While I think it would have benefited America.

But also an Islamic law would probably not allow gay marriage. While some Americans would think that is awesome because they are also against it, other Americans would be against that particular rule and not like it. So it depends.

Actually, if you examine the core basics of those rules you will find that they are very similar to the basic ideas and beliefs on which America was built. And I can back that claim up.

But I thought it would be better to show you what an actual American Muslim scholar has to say about Islam in America. The video is a bit long but it's really nice. So if you have the time, listen to it, and you be the judge.

Hamza Yusuf : Changing The Tide / Islam in America
WfEIGw8NtNA

Raphaeline

01 Nov 2010, 18:16

First of all I must say that I think the opinions of the man mentioned in the video are utterly disgusting.
I couldn't agree more. However, he does say one thing that IS true - we should know what it actually is.

I apologize for the really long part above, when you just wanted your two questions answered! But it's just that I thought those are very dangerous words and it pissed me off.
No reason to apologize; if I didn't want your thoughts on it, I wouldn't have shared it with you ;) I wanted to hear what you had to say in response to that man.

I think what he and people like him are trying to get across is their fear that their way of life - their CHRISTIAN PRIVILEDGE - is being threatened. Yeah, to a Christian, especially the ones around here that are sheltered from the way people in other parts of the globe and even the country, Sharia probably sounds scary because it has some things in it that are different from what they believe. However, someone saying (I don't know why he believes this, either) that Sharia law is somehow going to REPLACE the Constitution of the US frightens some Christians because - whether or not they see it - the law that is already in place favors THEM, and they perceive a threat of not being the majority anymore.

I say, why panic over it when you've already got Christian laws in place? If they're so concerned about religion changing the Constitution, I'd like to be able to buy liquor on Sundays.

Raphaeline

01 Nov 2010, 18:38

Sorry for the double post!

How is Sharia interpreted nowadays? I've read some on how classical Sharia included this or that rule or law, but how is it used in modern day Islam?

What I'm thinking is that there are a lot of religious laws in Leviticus involving violence done to people who commit sins like labor on the Sabbath, and various states of being "unclean". These aren't observed by Christians or Jews, for the most part, and aren't really taken seriously for whatever reason. How are the parts of Sharia that are currently seen as excessively violent across the globe (for instance, the stoning of women who commit adultery) accepted among most current Muslims?

ETA: This link goes to a video wherein (I think; I haven't watched it yet, but I wanted to catch you while you were online XD) the same man shares his knowledge of Sharia. *shrug*
http://www.morningstartv.com/oak-initiative/basics-shariah-law

Dumuzi

02 Nov 2010, 09:50

How is Sharia interpreted nowadays? I've read some on how classical Sharia included this or that rule or law, but how is it used in modern day Islam?

The thing is that in our point of view, the basics of these rules are universal and not related to a certain time. These basic rules are very similar to the basic human rights. Actually, Islamic law even has laws on the treatment of animals and is against the cruel treatment of animals.

(Quick view of human rights in Islam) (http://www.islam101.com/rights/index.htm)

But as you move away from those basics, the rules become more flexible. That is, there are a lot of options so that if one thing doesn't work in one place, it might work at another.

So yes, we do take those rules seriously and we accept them. Even those rules that may seem too violent, they are always presented as half truths, and the true purpose of them is often distorted. And the saddest thing in my opinion is when people sum up the whole law into just one act of punishment and forget everything else about that law.

They forget how under it everyone is treated justly and equally. And how under it the non Muslim's life, property, honor and places of worship are protected by the state.

ETA: This link goes to a video wherein (I think; I haven't watched it yet, but I wanted to catch you while you were online XD) the same man shares his knowledge of Sharia. *shrug*
http://www.morningstartv.com/oak-initiative/basics-shariah-law

Thank you for raising my blood pressure again :p

Yeah, he did it again. Islam shouldn't be protected by the First Amendment. Notice, how he keeps mentioning "Shari'a Law" and then mentioning something really negative after it.

For example, he keeps talking about the shooting, and I have yet to understand how it's related to Shari'a law, since under it committing murder can be punished by death. He also says that a court gave the right to a husband to beat the crap out of his wife. Which is something we've discussed here many times.

And then he says how a woman accused of adultery should be stoned. Here he makes two mistakes. 1. It's actually the other way round. Accusing a woman in her honor is severely punished by law unless you can provide four witnesses that have actually seen the same act happening in front of their eyes, which is near to impossible. So the law punishes the accuser, not the other way round in that case. 2. The law doesn't discriminate between men and women in that case. But he makes it sound as if the law only applies to women.

Anyway, my whole point is that what those people do is to tell you half a truth or just make things up in order to scare people about Islam.

And I understand if you disagree with certain rules in that law because that's your right. But to make that jump between not agreeing with a rule or two, to Muslims are a threat and shouldn't be protected by law? Yeah, that's very dangerous.

Raphaeline

02 Nov 2010, 13:55

Thank you for your responses - I'll let the subject rest for now in this thread and go deal with it in real life for a while ;) There are debates with family members to be had ::)

Dumuzi

02 Nov 2010, 14:00

Thank you for your responses - I'll let the subject rest for now in this thread and go deal with it in real life for a while ;) There are debates with family members to be had ::)

If there is anything that applies to this discussion, it's what a great teacher once said a long time ago. This will be very helpful for your discussion, Rafe:

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

;)

Shahaku

10 Nov 2010, 15:28

Could you please explain what you mean by philosophical/religious specifically? I want to provide you with the information you are interested in!
;)

Sorry to take so long getting back here. It's been a bit to hectic lately for some of my deeper thinking.

What I'm interested in is what you would find the Qa'ran. And perhaps what is/isn't culturally acceptable in certain parts of the world. I don't much care for what politics say is right or wrong or what is legal/not. I'm looking for the purely religious standpoint and how people perceive what is written in their religious texts. Before the government interferes. If that makes sense.

Shahaku

14 Nov 2010, 18:29

Hmm, well sorry to double post but it has been awhile since my last one as well..

Anyway, I was just wondering at what age people become mature in Islam. When are they allowed to marry? And when do they start wearing traditional garb? Like you don't see little girls wearing veils or even long sleeves all the time, from what I've seen. I never really thought about the clothing restrictions for men, but I assume it's something of the same?

Oh, and I'm taking an intro class on Islam next semester. Hoping it will be real intersting.

Dumuzi

16 Nov 2010, 06:29

Sorry to take so long getting back here. It's been a bit to hectic lately for some of my deeper thinking.

What I'm interested in is what you would find the Qa'ran. And perhaps what is/isn't culturally acceptable in certain parts of the world. I don't much care for what politics say is right or wrong or what is legal/not. I'm looking for the purely religious standpoint and how people perceive what is written in their religious texts. Before the government interferes. If that makes sense.

I was wondering where you went to!

Actually, that's what I meant when I was suggesting giving you links. The topic of divorce and the rights of women in Islam is a big topic. So I'm jsut gonna give you samples of some verses of the Qur'an talking about it.

First I want to point out that while divorce is permissible in Islam, it is the least of everything allowed in Islam. So it should be prevented as much as possible, and reconciliation between the couple should be encouraged.

Qur'an says:

And if you fear dissension between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, Allah will cause it between them. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Acquainted [with all things]. [4:35]

The Qur'an also explains how a husband has to treat his wife with kindness and even if there's something he dislikes then perhaps there is more good in her. And even when they want to be divorced, he's not allowed to take anything back from what he has given her.

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

But if you want to replace one wife with another and you have given one of them a great amount [in gifts], do not take [back] from it anything. Would you take it in injustice and manifest sin?

And how could you take it while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant? [4:19-21]

Anyways, here's a general verse talking about divorce if it should take place after the waiting period. (The waiting period is a period of waiting in hopes that the couple would reconcile their differences)

And when you divorce women and they have [nearly] fulfilled their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or release them according to acceptable terms, and do not keep them, intending harm, to transgress [against them]. And whoever does that has certainly wronged himself. And do not take the verses of Allah in jest. And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Knowing of all things. [2:231]

And here are some rights of those women:

Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means and do not harm them in order to oppress them. And if they should be pregnant, then spend on them until they give birth. And if they breastfeed for you, then give them their payment and confer among yourselves in the acceptable way; but if you are in discord, then there may breastfeed for the father another woman.

Let the man of means spend according to his means: and the man whose resources are restricted, let him spend according to what Allah has given him. Allah puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him. After a difficulty, Allah will soon grant relief. [65:6-7]

I really tried to condense my reply as much as possible, I just quoted you some of the verses to give you a general idea about divorce in Islam. Hope that was helpful.

Anyway, I was just wondering at what age people become mature in Islam. When are they allowed to marry? And when do they start wearing traditional garb? Like you don't see little girls wearing veils or even long sleeves all the time, from what I've seen. I never really thought about the clothing restrictions for men, but I assume it's something of the same?

Puberty. That's when a Muslim is looked at as an adult who has to pray, fast and so on.

Oh, and I'm taking an intro class on Islam next semester. Hoping it will be real intersting.

Oh, that is indeed interesting! What made you want to take that class, if I may ask? Also, I'd totally help you out with anything you want. Just let me know if you need any help :)

thalassa

16 Nov 2010, 06:32

Dumuzi

16 Nov 2010, 07:08

D!!!!!!!!!!!

I wondered where you were!!

random question...do they make like a kids Qu'ran? Christians have these kiddie bibles that sort of skip over or simplify the long, boring and tedious bits and then put the stories and stuff into story book form. Is there anything similar for children?

Hmmmm

We do have books for children that talk about certain stories in the Qur'an because there are good morals in them. Like I had books called The Stories of the Prophets or Stories from the Qur'an. And in them you'd find things like, Story of Solomon, Story of Moses, Story of Jesus and so on. And sometimes they just focus on stories that might interest children specifically when they include animals and things like that.

But an actual Qur'an for children?

There is no such thing, since if you change a word in the Qur'an it's not the Qur'an anymore. We actually learn the Qur'an and memorize small chapters of it when we are very young. It's easy because most of the time the Qur'an rhymes. On that note, I've seen really small children that have memorized all of the Qur'an! :o

thalassa

16 Nov 2010, 10:02

Hmmmm

We do have books for children that talk about certain stories in the Qur'an because there are good morals in them. Like I had books called The Stories of the Prophets or Stories from the Qur'an. And in them you'd find things like, Story of Solomon, Story of Moses, Story of Jesus and so on. And sometimes they just focus on stories that might interest children specifically when they include animals and things like that.

Yup, this is more what I mean...

Do you know of (or could you look for) any that are English language versions that you would feel comfortable recommending? For like, under 6?

Shahaku

16 Nov 2010, 17:20

Do you know of (or could you look for) any that are English language versions that you would feel comfortable recommending? For like, under 6?

I second this. I'm on a quest to find and buy tons of kids books, or create my own, on various religons.

Oh, that is indeed interesting! What made you want to take that class, if I may ask? Also, I'd totally help you out with anything you want. Just let me know if you need any help :)

Why, this here topic, of course. I'm always interested in religions and since I can't do a math major because the classes are too far beyond my, I've decided to minor in religious studies. I feel that I have enough of a background with Christianity to skip over those courses, so mostly I'm taking classes in Asian religions. But I am going to take a course on Islam because I don't feel that I have enough information on it. I wanted to take their course on women in Islam as well, but it's only online and I have trouble keeping on track with online courses. I am very interested in women's positions in different cultures though.

Dumuzi

16 Nov 2010, 19:53

Yup, this is more what I mean...

Do you know of (or could you look for) any that are English language versions that you would feel comfortable recommending? For like, under 6?

I gotta do a little searching for this one. So it might take some time ;)

Why, this here topic, of course. I'm always interested in religions and since I can't do a math major because the classes are too far beyond my, I've decided to minor in religious studies. I feel that I have enough of a background with Christianity to skip over those courses, so mostly I'm taking classes in Asian religions. But I am going to take a course on Islam because I don't feel that I have enough information on it. I wanted to take their course on women in Islam as well, but it's only online and I have trouble keeping on track with online courses. I am very interested in women's positions in different cultures though.

Ah, I see.

It's always nice to see someone willing to learn more, good luck with that! :)

Gwen

18 Nov 2010, 00:11

On that note, so am I. It's called Ahmadou and Hajji Baktash. Here's the course description:

This course will examine a West African Sufi and a Central Asian Sufi, both of whom become icons of transnational cultural resistance. We will look at their impact in popular culture and the positing of complexified Muslim identities in diverse contexts.

The prof is a brilliant Turkish Sufi who delights in breaking down categories of all kinds. I'm excited!

shadow1982

18 Nov 2010, 13:56

What is the difference between Sunni and Shiite Muslims?

Dumuzi

18 Nov 2010, 15:00

What is the difference between Sunni and Shiite Muslims?

Oh good one!

The difference is really not that of religion, that is they are all following the same religion. However, it has a lot more to do with politics, at least with the way it started.

After Muhammad died, people had to choose a leader for the Muslims. One group wanted Abu Bakr to be the ruler, who was Muhammad's best friend and the closest to him, while another group wanted Ali to be the ruler. He was Muhammad's cousin and was also married to his daughter Fatima.

The majority though chose Abu Bakr, and that's how he became the new ruler of the Muslims.

Now here's the thing, the Shi'a (which is the Arabic word for followers or group of, as in the followers of Ali) have the opinion that whoever rules Muslims should be from the bloodline of Muhammad. While Sunnis believe it should be anyone who the Muslims choose.

It's interesting however that Ali himself didn't oppose Abu Bakr when he was elected but supported him as the new ruler of Muslims. He did the same thing with the following two rulers after Abu Bakr. Ali became the 4th ruler.

So as you can see it has more to do with politics than religion. There are a few differences in terms of certain rules here and there, but when it comes to the major beliefs, they all believe the same thing. They believe in the same god, in the same prophets, and read the exact same Qur'an.

Hope that was helpful :)

Gwen

19 Nov 2010, 00:18

I've always thought of the Shi'ite/Sunni differences as being roughly equivalent to the differences among Protestant Christian denominations (historical splits often around a combination of politics and some finer theological points). Is that as accurate as a cross-cultural comparison can be, or is there a better way to think of it?

In Pagan terms, are we talking about Alex Sanders vs Gerald Gardner; Gardner vs Starhawk; or Gardner vs the Radical Fairies?

Dumuzi

19 Nov 2010, 00:52

In Pagan terms, are we talking about Alex Sanders vs Gerald Gardner; Gardner vs Starhawk; or Gardner vs the Radical Fairies?

I have no idea who those people are ;D

So I can't really make that comparison. Same goes for the different Protestant denominations. So I apologize for that. (Yeah yeah I'm not that smart)

However, the only thing I can say is that it's not really the same situation because from my impression when you ask those people about their religion, they would answer you saying they are Baptist, Lutheran, (Roman) Catholic and so on. So you get the feeling it's a whole other sect or religion.

As opposed to Islam, we don't use those terms when asked about our religion. Like, I never in my life referred to myself using those words. If you were to ask me I'd simply say I am Muslim.

If you want to compare it with something, you could think of it as Republicans and Democrats. If I were to ask you what is your nationality you'd always tell me you are American. Of course, when I investigate more I might find out what your political views are.

With that said, if you want to know some of the different rules that Sunnis are Shi'a have is that Shi'a have something similar, although not the same, as the pope. It's more like a spiritual leader if you will. While Sunnis just have scholars and so on.

thalassa

19 Nov 2010, 06:40

I have no idea who those people are ;D

So I can't really make that comparison. Same goes for the different Protestant denominations. So I apologize for that. (Yeah yeah I'm not that smart)

It would be like asking if its like the difference between a Granny Smith apple (which is tart and green) vs a Golden delicious apple (yellow and sweet) or an apple and an orange or an apple and a loaf or bread or an apple and a TV... ;)

Dumuzi

19 Nov 2010, 09:23

It would be like asking if its like the difference between a Granny Smith apple (which is tart and green) vs a Golden delicious apple (yellow and sweet) or an apple and an orange or an apple and a loaf or bread or an apple and a TV... ;)

LOL

Thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, it's like apples. If apples could bomb other people.

I keed I keed!

shadow1982

19 Nov 2010, 11:28

So as you can see it has more to do with politics than religion. There are a few differences in terms of certain rules here and there, but when it comes to the major beliefs, they all believe the same thing. They believe in the same god, in the same prophets, and read the exact same Qur'an.

Hope that was helpful :)

It was. :) Thank you

Gwen

19 Nov 2010, 12:55

It would be like asking if its like the difference between a Granny Smith apple (which is tart and green) vs a Golden delicious apple (yellow and sweet) or an apple and an orange or an apple and a loaf or bread or an apple and a TV... ;)

Thanks for translating me! ;D Pagan history buff can be cryptic sometimes... The apples are two high ceremonial Wiccan traditions that developed around the same time with much rivalry but almost identical practices; the orange is a less ceremonial feminist craft; and the loaf of bread is, well, the name "Radical Faeries" tells you a lot, no?

cesara

20 Nov 2010, 07:53

Just wanted to ask about the Muslim concept of 'Sakina' [Shakhinah in Hebrew]. How do Muslims interpret and incorporate this idea into their faith?

Dumuzi

20 Nov 2010, 14:22

Just wanted to ask about the Muslim concept of 'Sakina' [Shakhinah in Hebrew]. How do Muslims interpret and incorporate this idea into their faith?

Oh, I'm gonna enjoy answering this! ;D

There are two things you have to think about here.

1. The Arabic word Sakeena سكينة, which has the same root as the Hebrew word, and what it means in the Arabic language and how it was used in the Qur'an.

2. The Concept of Shakhina שכינה as understood in Judaism, and then comparing that concept to Islam.

Now let's start with the first part.

1. The direct translation of the word is "tranquility", "reassurance", "calm" and so on.

The root of the word roughly translates to " was still" or "rested", it's the opposite of "moving".

For example, if I were to ask you in Arabic "Where do you live?" I could use a word from the same root. In a way I'd be asking you, "Where is your dwelling place?". Actually, "dwelling places" in Arabic uses a word from the same root. This is kinda connected to the word Shekhina in Hebrew because it can mean a "dwelling" or "settling".

However, the word in Arabic is not used like that in the Qur'an. Here, are some examples of the word Sakeena being used (the underlined word):

It is He Who sent down tranquility into the hearts of the Believers, that they may add faith to their faith;- for to Allah belong the Forces of the heavens and the earth; and Allah is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom [48:4]

When those who disbelieved had put into their hearts chauvinism - the chauvinism of the time of ignorance. But Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers and imposed upon them the word of righteousness, and they were more deserving of it and worthy of it. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing. [48:26]

If you do not aid the Prophet - Allah has already aided him when those who disbelieved had driven him out [of Makkah] as one of two, when they were in the cave and he said to his companion, "Do not grieve; indeed Allah is with us." And Allah sent down his tranquility upon him and supported him with angels you did not see and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowest, while the word of Allah - that is the highest. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. [9:40]

So as you can see it doesn't really mean the same thing as in Judaism, because it means that god has sent down calmness or tranquility into the hearts of those people to reassure them. But more about that in the second part.

2. First, I'd like to point out that I don't have enough knowledge about the concept of Shekhina in Judaism in order to compare it to Islam. But I did some research and will try to address this problem as best as I possibly can.

From what I understand it's the concept of god's dwelling or presence in the world. And is often described as a light.

Here's the thing about the concept of the presence of god according to Islam. God explains in the Qur'an that 'there is nothing like unto him' and that 'there is nothing like him'. That is we make a great distinction between creation and the creator.

When Muhammad wanted to test the belief of a woman he asked her where God is, and she simply pointed above. He said that her belief was correct.

However, I want you to understand something. While, we believe that God is not inside of creation, we still believe he is the all knowing, so his knowledge is everywhere. He is the Most Merciful, so his mercy is every where. He is the all Seeing and the all Hearing, so his sight and hearing are every where. Do you see what I mean?

Which will bring me to the subject of light, especially after reading what you said about the Shekhina as light.

One of the most beautiful verses of the Qur'an is one that describes the light of Allah. I will post a video of the verse being recited beneath my post, so you can listen to it yourself. It uses the description "Light upon Light" to describe it.

Anyways, the point I was trying to make is that the original understanding of the concept of Shekhina could very much be the same as in Islam, in my opinion. When one worships god in sincerity, for example, their heart is filled with that feeling of tranquility and peace. However, like I was trying to say before, even when we say that god is with someone, we do not mean that his is physically with someone, rather the power, support, love, mercy of god and so on is with that person.

Now here is the verse I was talking to you about, enjoy :)

KBJ370TOaoc

Dez

22 Nov 2010, 13:22

Hey D,

This is inspired by the conversation in the other thread, about pantheism vs what the Bible says about there being one god. I really hope I word this right...

On this forum, we have a wide variety of beliefs, and there are many members who have had deeply personal experiences with The Divine that do not fit the way that you, or I, or someone else, might see God. Even within a specific religion, the way individuals interpret God, and therefor what God wants, and approves or disproves of, can be very different. Many people walk around their entire lives with an assumption that however they happen to see God is just the way it is, and overlay that assumption on their dealings with other people, for better or ill.

How do you, both personally, and as a Muslim, deal with the fact that the way people can experience Deity can be completely different? How do you explain it?

If someone had an intense spiritual experience, and, say, experienced God as female, or more then one being, would that mean that they had been deceived somehow, that the fundamentals of the way they see god are different, or that some other explanation was in order?

cesara

22 Nov 2010, 13:32

Thanks for the explanation, D! That was very en"Light"ening....giggles. ;)

Seriously....Light upon Light -- I like it!

Dumuzi

22 Nov 2010, 16:11

Hey other D

;D

You know, that's a really good question and a good topic for discussion. I will try to make this as short as possible (but I warn you this is gonna be LONG), because I have a lot of things I want to say about this. But aside from this post, I know we both could probably share great point of views together :)

How do you, both personally, and as a Muslim, deal with the fact that the way people can experience Deity can be completely different? How do you explain it?

OK, I'm glad you asked about both how I deal with it about how I explain it.

Personally, and growing up learning about the fundamentals of Islam, I have been taught to not follow anything unless I can back it up with proof or evidence. I know that these words are not common in other religions, but they are very important in Islam, as I will show you in a bit.

So how do I deal with someone coming to me claiming they've just had a personal experience with a deity or that Jesus spoke to them last night confirming the Triune God?

It's quite simple. I will just show them a statement that was repeated a few times in the Qur'an, where the author of the Qur'an is speaking directly to Polytheists, Jews and Christians.

"Bring your proof, if you are truthful"

You can't rely on so called personal experience in order to try to convince me of your claim. They would have to give me something I can check for myself. Something that I can put to the test. So unless they can back up what they say to me, they have no grounds to stand upon and I have no reason to believe them. The burden of proof is on them.

Of course, the same applies to me. But the thing is if you ask any Muslim on why they believe what they believe, they will tell you it's because of such and such. They will always give you evidence for it.

I can show you the Qur'an so you can see the arguments yourself. Or I can show you articles and lectures on what evidence we have for our religion, since most people don't want to read the Qur'an right away, especially if they can't speak Arabic.

Granted, people might not accept that evidence and reject it, but at least there's something there to ponder about. Plus, it's a whole other discussion, because I believe the signs of god are very clear, but some people refuse to at least look at it. Think of it as someone who has blindfolded themselves. They will never see the sun, no matter how bright the sun shines. So first they need to remove the blindfold.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get off topic and sound like we're in the Matrix :P But I think it still makes sense.

As for your second question, how do I explain it?

First, I'd like to point out that I claim that the Qur'an contains the exact words of god. Don't forget that this Qur'an was transmitted to us through a man called Muhammad that lived about 1400 years ago claiming an angel revealed this to him in the span of 23 years.

So whatever reasons I give in order to explain those experiences, or whatever arguments I make against those claims, I have already applied to my own source.

The easiest way to explain it is to talk to the individual specifically, and ask them questions about their experience. Given enough time, lots of explanations can be reached. But it really varies from one person to the other so it depends on what they claim has happened to them. Generally speaking it is important to understand that our emotions can be very subjective.

A person reading Hindu scripture might experience an extraordinary spiritual feeling similar to one reading the Bible, similar to one reading Mein Kampf.

So one shouldn't rely on that alone to explain things. But let me give you an example of what goes in my mind when someone says that a god spoke to them.

Did you actually hear a voice from outside your head? Where are they from and what language was the god speaking? Was it speaking English? What accent?

Do you see where I'm going with this? I'm trying to show you that things like that can very much result from our own brains trying to tell us something or convince us of something we so desperately want to believe. Of course, that's just one example of how I would explain it.

But I don't want to sound too closed minded, so I'd say to you it depends on the person talking with me. I'd gladly sit with them and discuss this topic with them. But to be honest with you, I can list one hundred different explanations for their claims.

I just want to finally add that sometimes it's just too obvious in some religions how humans have made up their own gods. I know that some would say that applies to all religions, but in my opinion some times it's more obvious than usual. Which is why I think when asked about gods, lots of people start talking in terms of symbols and entities that get their power from our faith and so on, rather than talk about an actual living, existing god. It's like deep down they know those are just names that humans have named.

And I'm just speaking for myself here, I can't follow something I doubt even just 1% that it's not purely from god. So if someone would ask me, I'd tell them to clear their mind first, use their own intellect, before they follow something that is not based on something firm.

Dez

22 Nov 2010, 16:55

Medusa

23 Nov 2010, 00:44

While talking to a friend about her mother. She came to find her mother believes those who commit suicide will go to Hell. What is the Muslim view on suicide? I mean past that it's wrong. Do suicides go to Hell?

Dumuzi

23 Nov 2010, 09:38

Thanks for that. It was a very interesting read, and I have quite a bit to think about.

In light of what you said, what is your evidence for Islam? Why do you consider it to be the most logical and (therefore) valid option? Can you point to evidence outside of scripture (since multiple old and longstanding religions can point to scripture that is more or less structurally sound)?

You're welcome! :)

The short answer to the evidence for Islam is the Qur'an. It proves through it's content that it is not the product of any human mind, especially not one that existed 1400 years ago.

It provides arguments, evidence and falsification tests in order prove this claim.

Before I give you the long answer, I wanted to clarify something I said earlier. I didn't mean to imply that spiritual experience is a bad thing, nor was I attacking people who have them. Actually it's something that is very important. And I firmly believe that if someone were to sincerely just address god directly (or their creator or whatever if the word "god" brings negative memories to them) and just say to him, if you are there, guide me, god willing he will guide them to the truth. And it will bring a spiritual feeling like no other. There is a sweetness to this religion like nothing else. Why do you think we Muslims worship god 5 times a day, for example? Where do you think this devotion comes from?

I am just saying that I don't think those feelings should be the ONLY thing we rely on. Actually, when those feelings have an origin from our mind that is based on certainty, it will increase the faith and feelings we have in our hearts at least 10 fold.

Now let's get back on topic!

In light of what you said, what is your evidence for Islam? Why do you consider it to be the most logical and (therefore) valid option?

There are two things to consider here. Evidence that supports Islam, and evidence that speak against other religions and other options.

Growing up I've always tried to learn more about Islam and try to find evidence for that religion, because I didn't want to be Muslim, just because my parents were Muslim. After all the Qur'an criticized people who just followed a religion because they were born into it. And later I also wanted to learn about other religions, and see if there is something else out there.

Now I'm not gonna give you a list as to why I reject all other religions, and of course I don't go to people telling them why I think they are wrong. But if I sit with someone on a one to one basis, and they want me to share my opinion regarding what they believe and so on, then maybe I can tell them why, on a logical and rational level, I reject their religion.

But let's go back to evidence for Islam, since I think that's what you are specifically asking about.

There's a lot of ways to go about it, but I will share with you one of them.

The Qur'an is the basis of Muslim belief. A lot of prophets were supported by signs and miracles, but those are limited by time and space. So it's only fair that the final prophet would give us a sign that can remain with us forever.

Now, the first person speaker in the Qur'an claims to be god. And he starts giving arguments against people who think otherwise, while making arguments to support his claim. It's actually like a dialogue in some cases. He does that to clear the minds of people of misconceptions and false ideas. (Think of the blindfold and sun example I spoke about in my last post). But then he would also give evidence of what he is talking about.

For example, he would say that he created humans and it's easy to create them again. And if you are in doubt, well here's how I create them. And then the Qur'an goes on describing human embryos in such a way that is both 100% accurate and also mentioning things no one knew back then.

Another example is when god claims to have created the heavens and the earth and then goes on, FYI, here's how I did it. And again, it's both accurate and mind blowing.

The Qur'an does the same thing regarding seas, mountains, animals and what have you. But that's not the only thing it does. It also offers you falsification tests. For example, in one verse god asks the readers in a very confident way, why they don't think carefully about the Qur'an, because if it was not from god, then they would have found in it many mistakes. Of course, the phone book doesn't have mistakes, doesn't mean it is from god.

However, if you examine the type of information talked about in the Qur'an, it becomes amazing how there is not a single mistake or contradiction there. (BTW, I can give you links to websites that have lists of so called mistakes in the Qur'an, but I can also show you evidence against them). Logic follows that if you were able to find a lot of mistakes in it, then you would prove it was man made.

And that's just one "line" that points towards Islam. There are many more that point towards the same direction. Like the author of the Qur'an also supports his claim by giving predictions and talking about history not known at the time and so on.

Another interesting falsification test that is repeated in the Qur'an, is the challenge it offered its audience. God is like, if you are having doubts about this, then try to produce a book like it. And then later on it challenges people to produce one chapter like it. Later on it's even reduced to just 10 verses and so on.

If they were able to make up something like it, they would have proven that it's just man made. But they couldn't. And the challenge is still there.

However, this deals more with the linguistic (the rhyme, grammar, syntax, eloquence etc) miracle of the Qur'an. The Arabs back then, mastered the Arabic languages, they wrote the best kind of poetry and stories back then. And yet here came Muhammad, who never recited poetry, and didn't even know how to read or write, and started reciting something to them unlike anything else. You know, a lot of those Arabs became Muslim just because they heard the Qur'an being recited.

But I won't go further into this point because obviously you'd have to understand Arabic to appreciate it, and I don't want to mention something that I won't be able to show you, without having to really explain things. (And this post is already too long).

So I'll end with this...

What I've mentioned are just a few "lines" that all meet in Islam. There's more, but even those alone for me are enough.

Another thing to consider is that all previous prophets also point out to Islam. Even if we look at the Bible through all the changes people made to it and the distortions, you will see traces of Islam there. Even Jesus Christ himself only preached about submitting to the will of the father, and not his own will. (Read the Lord's Prayer for example). Heck, in one part of the Bible he even prostrates to god and puts his face on the ground (same way Muslims worship god) and tells god that he will accept his will.

Islam, after all, is just the Arabic word for submission. Submission to god purely, and to his will alone. On his terms and not the terms of anyone else. I don't need anyone else to tell me how to worship my own creator.

Can you point to evidence outside of scripture (since multiple old and longstanding religions can point to scripture that is more or less structurally sound)?

Yes. All things we see around us are created. And if we put aside the word god for a second, we can logically say that something had to cause this to come into existence. Perhaps, that cause had another, and that one had another. But in the end, there is one cause that caused everything else to be here.

And if we just use our minds here, we can really describe how that cause had to be in order to create all this. It is the creator of everything. It has to be eternal or else it's not the cause that created everything. It has to be self sufficient, because it exists without the creation it created. It's really powerful, because it caused all this to exist. Must have been very knowing to plan all this. And so on.

The Creator / Self Sufficient / Eternal / Knowing / Powerful etc are all attributes given to god in the Qur'an. And I am simply acknowledging that there is something there more powerful than me, that I like to ponder about a low. And that's EXACTLY what the prophets of god were doing before receiving revelation from god. That's what being Muslim is about.

Of course, one might argue if that "cause" communicates with us, or if it will judge us for our actions, or if it has sent it's only son to save us and so on. And that's where revelation comes into place. After proving it's from that "cause" I willingly choose to follow it.

:)

Dez

23 Nov 2010, 11:03

You know, Dumuzi, it is really fascinating to me that while I respect the way you see the world, but don't agree with a lot of it for the same reason I can't deal with the certainty of LDS theology(I start to see it as circular logic), that when we get down to brass tacks: *what* god is, the Ultimate Good, there ends up being a lot that we share in common.

Past that, the details that we see differently, about how that Ultimate Good is manifested, or what should be done to worship said being, aren't really quite that important in the big scheme of things.

It makes me rather sad that most of the LDS people I know have such a poor impression of Muslims. I think that they'd find that they had a lot in common that was very positive, if they just opened their hearts up a little bit.

Dumuzi

23 Nov 2010, 12:04

Dumuzi

23 Nov 2010, 12:12

Thanks for the explanation, D! That was very en"Light"ening....giggles. ;)

Seriously....Light upon Light -- I like it!

You're welcome! Thanks for taking the time to read my reply :)

While talking to a friend about her mother. She came to find her mother believes those who commit suicide will go to Hell. What is the Muslim view on suicide? I mean past that it's wrong. Do suicides go to Hell?

Yes, it's considered a very bad thing that can lead someone to go to hell, god forbid.

However, it also depends on the mental state of that person. If someone has a condition where their thinking is blocked and they lose control over their actions, they are not held accountable. So in the end god knows best.

Dez

23 Nov 2010, 12:36

And I still think there is common ground in what you and I believe :)

Oh, I'd agree ;) In particular when it comes to who Jesus was, and what his role was in the universe, our conversations have helped me put into words so many things that I had always wanted to express, but never felt able to.

In some ways I've honestly felt a little bit like a "traitor to the cause" given the way my opinions and beliefs have changed over the past few months, though. A (small and a little over self-conscious) part of me starts to worry about discussing those changes with you sometimes.

For me, though, coming to see God as male *and* female has been a life-altering, and joyful experience, and has helped heal a lot of the pain I experience from the religion I was raised in. While in my case, I've come to see the Divine as two beings, creating the perfect whole through their complimentary natures, the way you see God is all encompassing, self-sufficient (I LOVE that being an attribute--I've never noticed it before, so I'm not sure if it's present outside of the Qur'an) and ultimately extremely loving. There is nothing about that I don't see as very positive and uplifting in an often dark and discouraging world. We need all of that we can get, even if the details differ (and don't worry, I don't plan on EVER giving that optimism up!).

Medusa

23 Nov 2010, 15:58

However, it also depends on the mental state of that person. If someone has a condition where their thinking is blocked and they lose control over their actions, they are not held accountable. So in the end god knows best.
Eh. So here we go.....

1. Who is actually SANE that commits suicide?
2. What if it's a person with a terminal illness and is in pain etc? And they want to end their life before the bad pain really takes over their body? Do they go to Hell because they want out of the unbearable pain?
3. What is not a valid condition? What would be a scenario where someone took their life that didn't get a pass out of hell?

It seems like the rule is really there to sort of scare sane people not to kill themselves. But crazy people can't even pay attention and will not go to hell in the end because..they are crazy.

*edit. oh wait. Suicide bombers. What are they reading that makes them think it's ok to commit suicide via bombing and go to heaven? If it's a sin, how come they do it in the name of?

MaskedOne

23 Nov 2010, 16:37

Granted I'm not Muslim so I can't speak on theological grounds and I'm definitely not into suicide bombings (note I'm still breathing...I think) but suicide and self-sacrifice are rarely treated as the same thing in any culture. Example would be the difference in reaction if

1) Imaginary person Bob decides life sucks and he's gonna jump off a bridge to end it.

2) Imaginary marine Fred tosses himself over a grenade knowing it'll probably kill him but also knowing that he has good odds of containing the shrapnel and limiting the shockwave, thereby saving his friends.

Bob is suiciding for his own personal reasons. He can't be bothered to stick around and see how life goes. Fred may absolutely love life but he can't allow his friends to die and if that costs his life then it's an even trade. To borrow from Christ but I'm pretty sure it merits the same honor in Islam

"No greater love than this, that a man give up his life for his friend." (paraphrased, I think the original is different)

I don't like applying it to suicide bombers for a variety of reasons that are far outside the context of the thread but if I had to guess at their mindset then their belief would be that they are offering their life in service to a greater good and therefore the action falls under self-sacrifice not simple suicide.

Shahaku

24 Nov 2010, 20:44

Bob is suiciding for his own personal reasons. He can't be bothered to stick around and see how life goes. Fred may absolutely love life but he can't allow his friends to die and if that costs his life then it's an even trade. To borrow from Christ but I'm pretty sure it merits the same honor in Islam

"No greater love than this, that a man give up his life for his friend." (paraphrased, I think the original is different)

I don't like applying it to suicide bombers for a variety of reasons that are far outside the context of the thread but if I had to guess at their mindset then their belief would be that they are offering their life in service to a greater good and therefore the action falls under self-sacrifice not simple suicide.

The verse you are quoting is from John 15 verses 12-15. I know that location by heart. It was my favorite verse during my extreme Christian days. The exact part of that verse is: Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. I've just written a paper about my religious journey and that verse was a part of it. I was deligently working my way toward memorizing that chapter when magic distracted me from Christianity. It still plays an important part in my moral code. Sorry that's off the topic of Islam, but it was already in the thread.

Dumuzi

28 Nov 2010, 01:39

In some ways I've honestly felt a little bit like a "traitor to the cause" given the way my opinions and beliefs have changed over the past few months, though. A (small and a little over self-conscious) part of me starts to worry about discussing those changes with you sometimes.

Please, don't!

I do understand where you are coming from. But at the same time I believe having discussions with other can be very helpful, to BOTH sides. So I really enjoy having those discussions, but you can already tell from my long posts. So perhaps I enjoy them too much :P

For me, though, coming to see God as male *and* female has been a life-altering, and joyful experience, and has helped heal a lot of the pain I experience from the religion I was raised in. While in my case, I've come to see the Divine as two beings, creating the perfect whole through their complimentary natures, the way you see God is all encompassing, self-sufficient (I LOVE that being an attribute--I've never noticed it before, so I'm not sure if it's present outside of the Qur'an) and ultimately extremely loving.

Yeah, that's the part where I think our point of views meet and disagree at the same time!

Like I totally understand how growing up thinking of god as a male or as a father would make you want to find the other half of the divine so to speak.

On the other hand from my point of view, ascribing a gender to god is something that we just don't do. Because god is way beyond and above that. It kinda falls under the category of being self-sufficient. Cause if god has a gender then they will need an opposite gender to compliment them and complete them. In that sense it wouldn't be god anymore, who doesn't need anyone.

For example, if someone tells me god is male, I start to think about what they are actually saying. Does that mean god has a beard and a prostate gland? So to me it just seems like humans trying to use their own brush to paint god, who's way beyond their limited understanding.

Dumuzi

28 Nov 2010, 02:02

Eh. So here we go.....

1. Who is actually SANE that commits suicide?
2. What if it's a person with a terminal illness and is in pain etc? And they want to end their life before the bad pain really takes over their body? Do they go to Hell because they want out of the unbearable pain?
3. What is not a valid condition? What would be a scenario where someone took their life that didn't get a pass out of hell?

It seems like the rule is really there to sort of scare sane people not to kill themselves. But crazy people can't even pay attention and will not go to hell in the end because..they are crazy.

The thing about suicide in Islam is that it is considered as an act of killing, as in it falls under the category of murder. It is true that you aren't killing someone else, but you are still killing a living being which god has made forbidden. Killing is a very big no no in Islam. Of course, one might argue that killing in self defense and so on is allowed, but that is the exception. The general rule is that you don't kill.

And I can think of a lot of examples. The girl who's daddy didn't get her a pony for her 16th birthday. The emo guy who's girlfriend broke up with him and he just can't live without her. The man who lost his job/wealth/wife/child and thinks his whole life is ruined now.

In the end only god knows what went on inside that person's mind the moment they chose to kill themselves. So whether it was an act of insanity or an act of ungratefulness is up to god to decide.

*edit. oh wait. Suicide bombers. What are they reading that makes them think it's ok to commit suicide via bombing and go to heaven? If it's a sin, how come they do it in the name of?

I'm not a scholar and I'm not qualified to issue a ruling, but I've heard two opinions amongst scholars about that subject.

Before I start I want to point out that when I say two opinions, I'm talking about the act itself as a way to fight your enemy, and NOT the act of killing women and children and so on. There are no different opinions regarding that, because there are clear texts that speak against it.

One group of scholars said that it is not allowed because like I've pointed out earlier killing yourself is not allowed and because the Qur'an in one verse says 'do not throw yourselves into destruction'. And they said, there is a distinction between the intention of going into battle ready to die for others, and the sole intention of killing yourself.

On the other hand scholars have said that it should be allowed only when you don't have any other means of fighting. In that sense, if you do it and it serves as a way to defeat your enemy, then you would have saved the lives of many who could have died.

MaskedOne actually raised up a very important point.

Putting aside the topic of suicide bombing, dying in battle is a very big privilege in Islam. Actually, for us Muslims, going into battle (for the right causes of course) is a win-win situation. Either we will defeat out enemy and gain victory, or we will die in battle and gain paradise.

Sucks for you though, if you get captured :P

Anyways, if you have more questions about suicide let me know.

cesara

28 Nov 2010, 11:09

Putting aside the topic of suicide bombing, dying in battle is a very big privilege in Islam. Actually, for us Muslims, going into battle (for the right causes of course) is a win-win situation. Either we will defeat out enemy and gain victory, or we will die in battle and gain paradise.

Sorry for interrupting, but this brings up a question for me...I hope this doesn't come out as disrespectful, but I'm finding it hard to word my question/s just right...lol.

1. What exactly would be 'the right cause' for an action of war?
2. Do you think that this ideology/belief is conducive to an environment where people actually search for an opportunity [read: right cause] to war?

Dez

28 Nov 2010, 12:36

Please, don't!

I do understand where you are coming from. But at the same time I believe having discussions with other can be very helpful, to BOTH sides. So I really enjoy having those discussions, but you can already tell from my long posts. So perhaps I enjoy them too much :P

I'm glad you feel that way. Some of the conversations we've had are right up by the top of my list if I were to start talking about all the things that I have learned in my time spent on this forum. And you KNOW I'm equally long-winded in the Mormon thread...so don't even go there! ;)

Yeah, that's the part where I think our point of views meet and disagree at the same time!

Like I totally understand how growing up thinking of god as a male or as a father would make you want to find the other half of the divine so to speak.

On the other hand from my point of view, ascribing a gender to god is something that we just don't do. Because god is way beyond and above that. It kinda falls under the category of being self-sufficient. Cause if god has a gender then they will need an opposite gender to compliment them and complete them. In that sense it wouldn't be god anymore, who doesn't need anyone.

For example, if someone tells me god is male, I start to think about what they are actually saying. Does that mean god has a beard and a prostate gland? So to me it just seems like humans trying to use their own brush to paint god, who's way beyond their limited understanding.

That raises an interesting question for me, then...what does the Qu'ran say about the nature of God?

In Genesis, it says that yes, man is created in the image of God(Genesis 1:27: So God created man in his own image, male and female created he them). Does the Qu'ran say something different about the creation of mankind?

As you know, Mormons believe that we were created in the image of God, because we are destined to be like him(or them, if you believe in Heavenly Parents...again, gender coming into play). If that is not the case, then why did God create mankind? Why did he give us a greater intelligence and ability then the animals? What was the purpose of that?

If God is genderless, why refer to him as "he?".

Ok...so a lot of questions ;)

Dumuzi

28 Nov 2010, 16:13

Sorry for interrupting, but this brings up a question for me...I hope this doesn't come out as disrespectful, but I'm finding it hard to word my question/s just right...lol.

1. What exactly would be 'the right cause' for an action of war?
2. Do you think that this ideology/belief is conducive to an environment where people actually search for an opportunity [read: right cause] to war?

cesara, there is nothing disrespectful about your question. Actually, it's something I wanted to expand on earlier, but I didn't want to derail my answer because the subject seemed a bit off-topic.

So thank you for your question! (and for putting an effort into wording it in a nice way) :)

The right cause to fight in Islam is to fight in the way of god. I will show you what that means from the Qur'an. As in I will show you the verses that talk about fighting and why Muslims on one hand were permitted to fight (after 13 years of persecution) and on the other hand why they were encouraged to fight. And then I will give you an example of a Muslim soldier in the battlefield.

Generally speaking, there are two reasons to fight.

1. Fighting in self defense
2. Fighting against injustice or religious persecution and oppression.

Before I begin, I'd like to point out that even if there are reasons to fight, there are still rules we as Muslims have to obey during fighting. I will not mention them in this post, but if you would like I will talk about it in another post.

The verse, giving permission to Muslims to fight:

Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.

[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. [22:39-40]

As you can see, the permission was given to those who were being fought and kicked out of their homes for their religion.

I'd also like you to notice that verse mentioned monasteries, churches and synagogues BEFORE it mentioned mosques. That is, it's not just talking about Muslims being persecuted but people of other religions, too.

Another verse specifically explains why Muslims need to fight:

So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward.

And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of Taghut (Evil). So fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak. [4:74-76]

Here, the verse talks about oppressed men, women and children. And that is why a Muslim should fight.

There are a number of other verses that explain how Muslims can fight in self defense, here is one of them:

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors. [2:190]

This is the first verse that talks about fighting in the Qur'an by the way.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that in a lot of places in the Qur'an it is explained how if the aggression against Muslims stops and they want peace, then Muslims should seek peace as well. This indicated that the fighting was only for the purpose of self defense. Here's one example:

And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. [8:61]

In the end I want to give you an example of what one Muslim soldier did on the battlefield. He's name is Ali ibn Abu Talib, he's Muhammad's cousin and would become later the 4th leader of Muslims.

On the battlefield he overpowered an enemy and was about to strike him with his sword. And then his enemy spat on his face, just when he was about to strike him. And then Ali just turned around and left him.

The man asked him why he didn't use this chance to kill him, and he explained that in the beginning he was going to kill him in the way of Allah, but after he spat on his face he was filled with anger and then if he had killed him, it would have been for being angry and for personal reasons.

2. Do you think that this ideology/belief is conducive to an environment where people actually search for an opportunity [read: right cause] to war?

I really believe if someone wants to start a war against someone else, they are going to be able to make all kinds of excuses no matter what. I'm pretty sure they could even invent a lie against another country, like having nuclear weapons for example, just to be able to make a war against them ;) (See what I did there?)

But the important thing about Islam that has to be understood, is that it's a complete and realistic way of life. It teaches you how to be kind, just and merciful to others, and how to avoid war as much as possible. But there are situations where war is inevitable, so god has to explain to use what are the justifications for us to pick up weapons against other human beings. And there has to be rules on how to behave during peace and how to behave during war. Because both can happen in your life.

Dumuzi

28 Nov 2010, 17:27

That raises an interesting question for me, then...what does the Qu'ran say about the nature of God?

There is a very short Surah in the Qur'an (4 verses only) that sums up the nature of God. Here it is:

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I don't want to really go into the nature of God in terms of being one, unique, creator of everything and so on because I believe you already understand that. But here's one example, anyways:

He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is All-Merciful, Very-Merciful.

He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Sovereign, the Supreme-In-Holiness, the Safe (from all defects), the Giver-Of-Peace, the Guardian, the All-Mighty, the All-Repairer, the Sublime. Glorified be Allah from whatever they associate with Him.

He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Shaper. His are the Most Beautiful Names. Whatever is in the heavens and earth is exalting Him. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. [59:22-24]

What I'd really like to point out, however, is that the one thing that is emphasized a lot in so many places, is the Mercy of God.

Did you know that with the exception of one chapter all chapters begin with "In the name of Allah the Most Merciful, the Ever Merciful?"

Actually, this is such an important attribute, that despairing of the mercy of god is an act of disbelieve.

Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Most-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [39:53]

And this is the thing that is repeated over and over again in the Qur'an. Even if a punishment in hell is described, we are also reminded that the mercy of god encompasses everything and that everyone who sincerely asks for it shall receive it, god willing.

When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. [2:186]

I'm just gonna show you a few examples of how the mercy of god is mentioned:

"Your Lord has decreed upon Himself mercy"
"My mercy encompasses all things"
"Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, the Most Merciful, the Ever Merciful"
"And your god is one God: There is no god but He, the All-Merciful, the Very-Merciful."
"and He is the most merciful of the merciful."

In Genesis, it says that yes, man is created in the image of God(Genesis 1:27: So God created man in his own image, male and female created he them). Does the Qu'ran say something different about the creation of mankind?

Yeah. The idea of human beings being created in the image of god is again something that we don't believe in. The idea behind creation of man kind in the Qur'an is a bit similar to that in the Bible, but you'll notice it is fundamentally different.

I want to make this as short as possible so I'll just point out the differences fast (I will give you a link to a video though that I think is REALLY interesting, in case you want to learn more). First, humans aren't on earth as a punishment. There is no such thing as an original sin. God forgives Adam right away, because as he explains, he is the most Forgiving one and the ever Merciful one. Eve is not blamed for causing that first sin. Both are blamed in most cases, while in some verses, ONLY Adam is addressed. But anyways, like I said before, he was forgiven. According to the Qur'an, god gives knowledge to Adam in order to show the angels he has great potential, rather than warn Adam not eat from the tree of knowledge.

As you know, Mormons believe that we were created in the image of God, because we are destined to be like him(or them, if you believe in Heavenly Parents...again, gender coming into play). If that is not the case, then why did God create mankind? Why did he give us a greater intelligence and ability then the animals? What was the purpose of that?

The angels asked god about that in the Qur'an:

And, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." [2:30]

You later learn how through the potential to gain knowledge, and the ability to do good, humans have the potential to be better than those angels themselves. At the same time, humans who do not use their understanding and do not follow the guidance of god and cause evil and harm, will be worse than even animals.

But like I said earlier, there's a lecture by a Muslim called Dr. Jeffrey Lang (Off-topic, he's actually a professor of Caelia at her school, what are the odds!) and he talks about that topic from a really personal point of view. If you have the time to watch it, please do! It's broken into small parts so you can watch them at different times if you want. ;)

Click me for the link! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ1BWqjTjs)

If God is genderless, why refer to him as "he?".

Ok...so a lot of questions ;)

That one I can answer! And yes, a lot of questions, but I tried to keep things short, so if there's a part of my answer you want me to talk more about, let me know.

Now why refer to god as "he" if we don't ascribe a gender to him?

That's easy to answer if you understand the Arabic language and Arabic grammar. (Arabic lesson time!)

In Arabic there is no neutral form, there are only so called female forms and male forms. And here is the general rule about those forms: "If someone is specifically female, we use the female form. For everything else we use the male form."

My Arabic teacher used to jokingly say about that, that the Arabic language has favored women because it gave them their own form.

If this is confusing, let me give you an example.

There are two words for "They" in Arabic. A female "they" (hunna) and a male "they" (hum). Now here are the four possibilities of how they are used:

1. A group of females. Here the female "they" (hunna) is used to refer to them.

2. A group of males. Here the male "they" (hum) is used to refer to them.

3. A group of both males and females. Again, the male "they" (hum) is used.

4. A group of people whose gender is not known. Again, the male "they" (hum) is used.

So that's why we the word "He" is used to refer to god, because he isn't specifically female, so we use the word that's used for everything else.

Make sense?

MaskedOne

28 Nov 2010, 21:07

And this is the thing that is repeated over and over again in the Qur'an. Even if a punishment in hell is described, we are also reminded that the mercy of god encompasses everything and that everyone who sincerely asks for it shall receive it, god willing.

Does this apply to those already dead? Can a fallen soul petition for forgiveness after spending time in Hell (if the premise of Hell applies the same in Islam as Christianity) for their failures on Earth?

Medusa

29 Nov 2010, 00:40

What, if any is the rule on tattoos?

Dumuzi

29 Nov 2010, 15:01

Does this apply to those already dead?

When you are dead your time is up. There is nothing you can 'add' in terms of good deeds, except in three conditions.

Can a fallen soul petition for forgiveness after spending time in Hell (if the premise of Hell applies the same in Islam as Christianity) for their failures on Earth?

The short answer is I don't know.

But the general idea is that when you enter hell then it's already too late. In that case, it's up to god's will what will happen to some of those people.

At the same time God is the most forgiving one, so if someone sincerely turns back to god then he will forgive them, god willing.

According to a Hadith Qudsi Muhammad said, Allah the Almighty said:

O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

And also:

Our Lord (glorified and exalted be He) descends each night to the earth's sky when there remains the final third of the night, and He says: Who is saying a prayer to Me that I may answer it? Who is asking something of Me that I may give it him? Who is asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?

What, if any is the rule on tattoos?

Permanent ones are not allowed.

cesara

29 Nov 2010, 16:06

The right cause to fight in Islam is to fight in the way of god. I will show you what that means from the Qur'an. As in I will show you the verses that talk about fighting and why Muslims on one hand were permitted to fight (after 13 years of persecution) and on the other hand why they were encouraged to fight. And then I will give you an example of a Muslim soldier in the battlefield.

Thanks so much for the well thought out answer, D. I do understand a lot more now what the perception is. It's hard being here in the west, sometimes. I can tell you what the perceptions are here, but I love that I can come to you and say, "Hey, this is what it looks like over here (thanks to the media and/or ignorant sentiment) -- I know there is more to it than that....tell me, D!"

Thanks for that!

Gwen

30 Nov 2010, 03:05

When you are dead your time is up. There is nothing you can 'add' in terms of good deeds, except in three conditions.

Which?

Permanent ones are not allowed.

Why not?

Dumuzi

30 Nov 2010, 11:18

Thanks so much for the well thought out answer, D. I do understand a lot more now what the perception is. It's hard being here in the west, sometimes. I can tell you what the perceptions are here, but I love that I can come to you and say, "Hey, this is what it looks like over here (thanks to the media and/or ignorant sentiment) -- I know there is more to it than that....tell me, D!"

Thanks for that!

You are most welcome! :)

I always try to support my answers with evidence from scripture and so on, so it doesn't become an issue of their word vs my word. Plus, there are a lot of translations of the Qur'an out there and also online, so you can check it for yourself.

I do enjoy answerting your questions, so keep them coming!
;)

Which?

They are mentioned in a Hadith.

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: “When a person dies, his works end, except for three: ongoing charity, knowledge that is benefited from, and a righteous child who prays for him.” [Muslim, Tirmidhi]

So any good you do to benefit others that goes on after you die, will still count for you, God willing :)

Why not?

Because God said so.

(Any permanent changes to our bodies, without a justified reason, such as a medical necessity for example, are not allowed)

Dez

30 Nov 2010, 11:26

There is a very short Surah in the Qur'an (4 verses only) that sums up the nature of God. Here it is:

That was beautiful. It gave me chills...thanks for sharing, D.

Did you know that with the exception of one chapter all chapters begin with "In the name of Allah the Most Merciful, the Ever Merciful?"

I didn't know that...if I understand right, then, it's to emphasize his mercy, and make sure that no matter what, you keep that in your mind and heart?

I'll need to watch the other video bit by bit(it seems like a red flag for my kids to have a trouble). but so far very, very interesting.

And that makes total sense about Arabic language structure! Thank you!

Dumuzi

01 Dec 2010, 12:31

That was beautiful. It gave me chills...thanks for sharing, D.

You're welcome :)

I didn't know that...if I understand right, then, it's to emphasize his mercy, and make sure that no matter what, you keep that in your mind and heart?

Exactly!

At the bottom of everything it is the one thing we are striving for. :)

Gwen

01 Dec 2010, 13:59

Because God said so.

(Any permanent changes to our bodies, without a justified reason, such as a medical necessity for example, are not allowed)

Thanks for the three-works answer, but where/when/how does God say so? :P

Shahaku

02 Dec 2010, 13:15

So the syllabus for my class along with many of our assignments it already up and it already has be coming up with a few new questions.

One of our readings is the Autobiography of Malcolm X. Now the name is really familiar to me, like I feel I should know it, but I'm drawing a blank. Who is he in the world of Islam?

Another of our readings is "section from the Qur'an + selections from Hadith + selections from Tafsir + Modern Islamic Thought + Introduction to Islam" What is Hadith and Tafsir?

Finally our paper for the class is on something called Zakah. What's that pertaining to?

Corvus

02 Dec 2010, 13:37

Im not sure if this was asked or not but, I heard that hell in islam is temporary(like no one is there forever) is this true? Is there a verse pertaining to this?

Dumuzi

03 Dec 2010, 14:57

Thanks for the three-works answer, but where/when/how does God say so? :P

Hehe

It's from a saying of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). He is reported to have cursed the tattooer and the tattooed. (Reported by Muslim)

Of course, god knows best. :)

Also, just to add since someone may be wondering, this doesn't mean that someone with tattoos cannot become Muslim. Because when someone becomes Muslim, all their sins are taken away!

So the syllabus for my class along with many of our assignments it already up and it already has be coming up with a few new questions.

Cool, keep the questions coming. I'm more than happy to answer them for you :)

One of our readings is the Autobiography of Malcolm X. Now the name is really familiar to me, like I feel I should know it, but I'm drawing a blank. Who is he in the world of Islam?

Are you from America? You don't know who Malcolm X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_X) is? :p

In terms of Islam, he didn't become Muslim till maybe one year before his death. Before that he was Christian and then joined the Nation of Islam, before breaking off from that organization in 1964. He performed the pilgrimage after that and became really Muslim. He is an inspiration and a role model to lots of Muslim youths.

wgqIek2TYvg

Another of our readings is "section from the Qur'an + selections from Hadith + selections from Tafsir + Modern Islamic Thought + Introduction to Islam" What is Hadith and Tafsir?

Hadith = Saying of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Tafsir = Explanation, usually in reference to the Qur'an. Some people use the word interpretation of the Qur'an.

Finally our paper for the class is on something called Zakah. What's that pertaining to?

Zakah = The charity every Muslim has to pay. The word comes from the word meaning to purify or to cleanse.

Im not sure if this was asked or not but, I heard that hell in islam is temporary(like no one is there forever) is this true? Is there a verse pertaining to this?

No, it is not temporary.

However, I've heard two opinions regarding some people in hell. One opinion says that whoever enters hell will remain there eternally. While the other opinion was that some people enter hell for a specific time and then go to heaven.

But I don't have enough information to give you a precise answer. So god knows best :)

Shahaku

03 Dec 2010, 21:02

Are you from America? You don't know who Malcolm X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_X) is? :p

It's sad, I'm sure, but I've a love/hate relationship with history. I like learning about cultures, so learning their history is important, but I dislike that necessary learning about history itself. I have a lot of trouble remembering names as well, for instance it's not uncommon for me to not be able to remember the name of the main character in a book even if I've only just finished it an hour or two ago.

Dez

13 Dec 2010, 11:50

Hey D,

I know you've been busy the past couple of weeks, so no rush on this....it's more a human rights issue then a religion issue, too(hope you don't mind).

WikiLeaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks) recently released a cable revealing that U.S. Government contractor DynCorp(which is funded by taxpayer money) threw a party for Afghan security recruits featuring "Bacha Bazi" (http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/wikileaks_reveals_us_tax_dollars_fund_child_sex_sl avery_in_afghanistan#share_source), a form of entertainment in which pre-teen boys are dressed in women's clothing, dance for adult men, and are after sold to the highest bidder for sexual use.

While I know that you are most familiar with the culture in Egypt, and I'm fairly sure you'll say that such practices are against the Qu'ran, how common is this sort of practice in Middle Eastern countries? Do governments turn a blind eye to child trafficking? Is it possible that if governments were more tolerant of homosexual activity between consenting adults, this would not have become a cultural practice, or are they two separate issues? Is it possible that some men feel pressure to participate, or be looked down on by their business associates?

Dumuzi

14 Dec 2010, 13:41

Hey D,

I know you've been busy the past couple of weeks, so no rush on this....it's more a human rights issue then a religion issue, too(hope you don't mind).

I don't mind at all, it's a very important issue that needs to be addressed. (Plus what good is religion if it doesn't address human rights!)

WikiLeaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks) recently released a cable revealing that U.S. Government contractor DynCorp(which is funded by taxpayer money) threw a party for Afghan security recruits featuring "Bacha Bazi" (http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/wikileaks_reveals_us_tax_dollars_fund_child_sex_sl avery_in_afghanistan#share_source), a form of entertainment in which pre-teen boys are dressed in women's clothing, dance for adult men, and are after sold to the highest bidder for sexual use.

Wow.

I am at a loss for words. You know, there are times when I'm glad that I believe hell exists.

While I know that you are most familiar with the culture in Egypt, and I'm fairly sure you'll say that such practices are against the Qu'ran, how common is this sort of practice in Middle Eastern countries?

This is the first time I hear of such practices. I'll only speak for Egypt and perhaps other Arab countries, but even the worst kind of criminals over here, consider child molesters to be extremely evil. For example, when a known child molester spends some time in jail, they are often severely attacked by other prisoners. Not that I encourage that, I'm just saying.

Do governments turn a blind eye to child trafficking?

It's a funny coincidence, because just yesterday the “End Human Trafficking Now” conference in Luxor, Egypt ended. It was organized by Egypt's first lady's organization "Suzanne Mubarak Women's International Peace Movement" (SMWIPM) and the "UN Global Initiative to Fight Human Trafficking" (UN.GIFT)

You can read more about it here (http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/0/1753/Egypt/Ending-human-trafficking.aspx).

So we take those things very seriously.

Is it possible that if governments were more tolerant of homosexual activity between consenting adults, this would not have become a cultural practice, or are they two separate issues?

Honestly, in my opinion, I see them as two separate issues.

Think of it this way, I'm guessing your culture is more lax about relationships between men and women outside of marriage, correct? Does that automatically make the rape statistics go down?

Furthermore, I don't see any excuse for rape, especially when it comes to children. I am not married yet, doesn't mean I have an urge to molest children. I think that's absurd.

Is it possible that some men feel pressure to participate, or be looked down on by their business associates?

I really don't understand this. Shouldn't it be the other way round? That if you commit such crimes you'd want to hide it from others?

Again, I don't really see any excuse to do this. Pressured or not, if someone does this then they deserve nothing but to be executed. And speaking of Afghanistan, remember those execution videos they showed from over there? I really think it's exactly those people that should be killed in public, to serve as an example to anyone who would even think about doing this to a child.

Lilith

14 Dec 2010, 14:11

Salaam alaikum!

I've only skimmed through this thread so sorry if someone else has quoted this reference, but, I'm sure it was in Lois Bourne's autobiography 'Witch Amongst Us' it is related that many Islamic precepts were brought back by 'crusaders' of the Middle Ages and evolved into Wiccan and Pagan precepts ...

As a Wiccan/Pagan studying Urdu a few years ago and listening to radio Ramzan, I was transfixed to hear a broadcast on Islamic belief and think, 'wow, that's what we believe!'

Bilkul thik, thik hai na?

Dez

14 Dec 2010, 16:28

I don't mind at all, it's a very important issue that needs to be addressed. (Plus what good is religion if it doesn't address human rights!)

Wow.

I am at a loss for words. You know, there are times when I'm glad that I believe hell exists.

This is the first time I hear of such practices. I'll only speak for Egypt and perhaps other Arab countries, but even the worst kind of criminals over here, consider child molesters to be extremely evil. For example, when a known child molester spends some time in jail, they are often severely attacked by other prisoners. Not that I encourage that, I'm just saying.

I agree with you about hell...I believe very strongly in mercy, but there are a select handful of things I think people can do on this planet that should mean that their privilege of living her gets revoked.

It's a funny coincidence, because just yesterday the “End Human Trafficking Now” conference in Luxor, Egypt ended. It was organized by Egypt's first lady's organization "Suzanne Mubarak Women's International Peace Movement" (SMWIPM) and the "UN Global Initiative to Fight Human Trafficking" (UN.GIFT)

You can read more about it here (http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/0/1753/Egypt/Ending-human-trafficking.aspx).

Wow, that is really cool!

TBH, too, I didn't know Egypt had a first lady...have you ever considered a brief post on Egypt's political structure?

Honestly, in my opinion, I see them as two separate issues.

Think of it this way, I'm guessing your culture is more lax about relationships between men and women outside of marriage, correct? Does that automatically make the rape statistics go down?

Furthermore, I don't see any excuse for rape, especially when it comes to children. I am not married yet, doesn't mean I have an urge to molest children. I think that's absurd.

I agree...that's one of the argument I've been hearing running around, though, and so I wanted your take on it. I think that sort of attitude muddies the waters, and ultimately damages both camps more then it helps.

I really don't understand this. Shouldn't it be the other way round? That if you commit such crimes you'd want to hide it from others?

Again, I don't really see any excuse to do this. Pressured or not, if someone does this then they deserve nothing but to be executed. And speaking of Afghanistan, remember those execution videos they showed from over there? I really think it's exactly those people that should be killed in public, to serve as an example to anyone who would even think about doing this to a child.

The reason I was wondering about that is because one of the articles mentioned that this is a common practice for businessmen to get involved in.

When my FIL had a job that frequently took him to Asia, it was a common expectation for businessmen to get together and drink at "hostess" bars, and other similar activities. The fact that he had no desire to do so sometimes was looked down upon by his Japanese associates, and unless very carefully handled, could reflect poorly on him, and his company, since it could be seen as him not wanting to be "one of the guys", etc.

I'm wondering if there's a similar element of group pressure and machismo involved here.

Dumuzi

16 Dec 2010, 10:30

shadow1982

16 Dec 2010, 11:16

What does Salaam alaikum and Wa Alaykum Assalam mean? There is a muslim family in Eastenders who say it all the time and I've always wondered :)

Dumuzi

16 Dec 2010, 15:14

What does Salaam alaikum and Wa Alaykum Assalam mean? There is a muslim family in Eastenders who say it all the time and I've always wondered :)

First one is "Peace be upon you" and the second one is the response "And peace be upon you"

It's she shorter version of the Islamic greetings of: Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh

Which translates to "May the peace, blessings and mercy of Allah be upon you"

:)

Medusa

16 Dec 2010, 19:57

salamialaklayakum

thalassa

23 Dec 2010, 17:59

Medusa

23 Dec 2010, 23:50

This is sort of a random question...but I was listening to NPR, and they had this story on about how Saddam Hussein had a Quran commissioned and written from his own blood (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40795274/ns/technology_and_science-science/)...and aside from the apparent controversey over the act and the item itself--in terms of the blood part, led me to wonder if there is some sort of protocol or tradition if one *would* need/want to get rid of their copy of the Quran. Like, if its worn...your 3 year old gets ahold of it and colors in it...your dog chews on it...etc. Is there a prefered method for the book to be respectfully disposed of?

omg. I was going to ask about this as well. It totally blows my mind!

My question on this topic. I know it's haram to do this in blood. But it's also a no no to destroy a holy book. So what would your opinion be on what to do with this? For now it's just locked away because they can't even figure out what to do with it.

thalassa

24 Dec 2010, 05:28

omg. I was going to ask about this as well. It totally blows my mind!

lemme guess...you heard the same segment on NPR?

...I know I'm not the only NPR junkie around here ;)

Dumuzi

24 Dec 2010, 11:13

First time I hear about this, it's no where on the news here.

I will give you a quick answer first, cause there's something I wanna rant about. :P

I've looked it up, and it seems most scholars say that if you have to dispose a copy of the Qur'an the best way to do it is to wrap it in a pure piece of cloth and then burying it in a place where people normally don't walk. Or you can tie the Qur'an to something heavy and throw it in flowing water.

If none of these options are possible, you can also burn the copy, although it is not recommended. And god knows best, of course.

By the way, while we respect the paper and ink used to write down the Qur'an, the Qur'an itself, here on earth, cannot be disposed of because it's a recitation (Qur'an = that which is recited) and is protected by Allah himself. (Just a FYI :) )

And now for the rant...

It seems the article is saying there's a huge controversy regarding this issue, although like I said, till now I haven't heard anything about it. And I sincerely hope this doesn't become one because it would be utterly ridicules.

We are talking about a man who has committed mass murder. He has killed a lot of Muslims and non Muslims. And he has spilled a lot of blood. But now people want to react about his blood and forget about all the blood that has been spilled by him? Makes no sense to me.

The messenger of Allah, said the following while addressing the Ka'ba (at the sacred mosque in Mecca):

"How sweet/ good are you and how sweet is your scent. How great are you and how great is your sanctity. By the One who the soul of Mohammad is in His Hand the sanctity of a believer is greater with Allah than your sanctity"

It should concern us more that believers have been killed, rather than make a big deal out of paper and ink/blood.

Medusa

24 Dec 2010, 14:23

You should listen to NPR. There's alot of stuff about your religion and specifically your country. It might have news you aren't exactly getting over there for whatever reasons. And it's pretty objective too. They tend to use the information from your actual peeps. As opposed to just us Americans assuming stuff. It's your actual people giving the interviews and updates. This is just a total derail. Sorry.

It should concern us more that believers have been killed, rather than make a big deal out of paper and ink/blood.
I agree. But...it's more about politics. People get pissed if you see Sarah Palin killing some moose. But then get pissed if you decide to be all pro animal rights. People in govt just cannot win. I assume it's like that about this story. People hate him. But people also believe in the sanctity of the Qu'ran. Then you have this douche bag of a killer decide hey! I'll just write this in my own blood.. (for his made up purpose of thanking Allah for his son's life) when it's just about totally fucking over people. Knowing good and well he's committing haram by doing this book in blood, yet calling on the very book he's committing haram against as his defense. This very act is what upsets people who cannot understand terrorists. I will kill you because my book says so. Yet..I am going to do it by breaking every single rule my book says. Great.

Dumuzi

25 Dec 2010, 06:24

Oh I was actually ranting and criticizing certain Muslims.

Like I said, I don't know if it's become a big deal or not, but I'm hoping it doesn't. You know, it reminds me of the burn the Qur'an thing. First of all, do not feed the troll. Second, you have every right to be upset and try to speak against it and all, but it doesn't make any sense to just consume your time and focus your energy regarding some dude in a far country who's going to burn a bunch of books, and not be at least equally angry and concerned regarding the fact that Muslims are being killed.

What is more sacred with Allah? Paper and ink or the life of one of his creation?

Oh also, this is a bit off topic, but Saddam Hussein was very secular. He actually persecuted religious parties in Iraq. So I guess he does have something in common with Barack Hussein Obama, they both run secular countries :P

Knowing good and well he's committing haram by doing this book in blood, yet calling on the very book he's committing haram against as his defense.

Oh look at you shouting haram left and right. I love it when you get all Jodihad! Get it? It's Jodee + Jihad :P ;D

Medusa

26 Dec 2010, 02:04

This came from Deseret's thread.

Sorry Des if I jump in here too ...

I think believing that someone is something special in ones chosen path is what "FAITH" is all about ... Something that is accepted as just is ... Just as some believe Jesus to be the son of God or that Moses was a prophet ... Or in Buddha's, Isis' or Hathor's divinity ... It is a matter of faith ... Generally "supported " by something in writing ...

I think it's a good question from Dumuzi. Because from what I can gather from the basic studies I've been doing....when you ask a Muslim the same type of question. Well you won't get an answer that involves 'faith'. You get a very...logical answer with lots of facts and what nots to back it all up. It's like...well it's like math for religion.

Well what do you have to say about faith and religion in general? When I talk with you, it never seems like it's faith in the 'traditional' sense. But a very hard line mathematical logical equation at times. Know what I mean?

Dumuzi

26 Dec 2010, 10:27

You are absolutely right.

Allah says:

Is He [not best] who begins creation and then repeats it and who provides for you from the heaven and earth? Is there a deity with Allah? Say, "Produce your PROOF, if you should be truthful." [27:64]

The Qur'an is filled with verses that speak about proof, reason and understanding. There is no other holy scripture like it. The real reason for that, if you really think about it, is because not a single religion out there has actual proof to support it. So they have to encourage their followers to follow blind faith.

The word "Faith", at least in the way it is used in the English language, appears from the outside to be something pretty and beautiful. But if you actually go deeper into its meaning, it just means that you follow something with no evidence for it. Faith in that sense is nothing more than conjecture and doubt.

As humans, we do not use that logic when dealing with money or when we choose schools for our children. No one relies on faith when they are doing business because they don't want to lose a couple of bucks. And yet when it comes to your very own creator and your soul, which should be more important than money, logic and reason fly out the window.

And this is the very thing the Qur'an keeps criticizing on and on. It speaks to the polytheists, the Jews and the Christians and asks them, if you think you are right, then you should be able to bring up proof for it. Rather they are following conjecture and doubt. This is how Allah defines that kind of faith.

Did you really think Allah would create us and not send us clear signs to guide us? Does that seems logical to you? So if anyone refuses to follow that light from Allah, and instead follows his ancestors/parents or the delusions of his own desires, he is described as being blind in the Qur'an because he has eyes which do not see. The term blind faith would apply perfectly here.

The Qur'an says:

O mankind, there has come to you a conclusive proof from your Lord, and We have sent down to you a clear light. [4:174]

Consider the following, almost everyone in this forum has gone from path to path to path. What do you honestly think is the real reason I am so convinced about this religion that I wouldn't change it, god willing?

1. Either I am brainwashed
2. I'm real stubborn (That one is kinda true ;D )
3. Or I'm following something because of clear evidence that leaves no doubt in my heart.

It's really up to you to think of the correct answer.
;)

calfhill

26 Dec 2010, 10:31

Interesting scripture. What was the "clear light" that was sent down as "conclusive proof"?

Dumuzi

26 Dec 2010, 12:58

Interesting scripture. What was the "clear light" that was sent down as "conclusive proof"?

I'm glad you asked! ;D

It's the Qur'an, the book of Allah himself.

Think of it this way, God has sent many prophets and messengers to people in order to guide them and so on. And often, he would support said messengers with signs and miracles. Moses parted the Red Sea, Jesus healed the sick etc.

But as miraculous as these signs were, they are limited by time and space. You had to be there at that specific time to witness them. So when the last of all prophets was sent to mankind, he was given a miracle that would last forever, so everyone any where in the world can have access to it. Make sense, right?

And that miracle is the Qu'ran.

I just want to explain something, because people often misunderstand this. I am NOT saying that the Qur'an is a proof of God because it says so, and everything in it is true because it's from God, because it says it's from God, ad infinitum.

What I'm saying is basically the following:

And it was not [possible] for this Qur’an to be produced by other than Allah, but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture, about which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds. [10:37]

Through the speech and knowledge contained in the Qur'an, it is proven that it is not the product of any human being, especially not one that lived 1400 years ago, who couldn't read nor write.

The language (rhyme, grammar, syntax, eloquence etc), precision of words and letters, prophecies, arguments, scientific facts and much more which is contained in the Qur'an convinces its reader that it is from god.

You know, the Pagan Arabs accused Muhammad, the messenger of Allah, of all kinds of bad things. Yet, not once, could they speak against the power and beauty of the Qur'an as it was being recited to them.

I could talk more about this, and give you links if you are interested in that sort of thing, but I will leave you with the following:

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. [4:82]

Hope that answers your question, if you have any follow up questions feel free to ask me! :)

calfhill

27 Dec 2010, 08:36

Thank you.

Ophidia

30 Dec 2010, 17:33

Not a question, Dumuzi, but I thought you might get a kick out of this:

http://www.cracked.com/article_18911_5-ridiculous-things-you-probably-believe-about-islam.html

Dumuzi

31 Dec 2010, 03:39

Not a question, Dumuzi, but I thought you might get a kick out of this:

http://www.cracked.com/article_18911_5-ridiculous-things-you-probably-believe-about-islam.html

Hehe

Yeah it was nice to see someone say the things I've been trying to say for so long. However, this is Cracked.com after all, so don't take everything they say as fact. Just a quick example, Muslim women do have to cover their head. So that part of the article isn't saying the truth about Islam. ;)

But thanks for posting!
:D

Medusa

31 Dec 2010, 14:06

What's the Muslim stance on yoga, if any?
Seeing some Christian peeps don't think highly on it etc.

Dumuzi

31 Dec 2010, 15:11

What's the Muslim stance on yoga, if any?
Seeing some Christian peeps don't think highly on it etc.

Again, I don't have enough knowledge to pass a ruling, but from what I have read it depends on what you mean by yoga. If it's just the physical exercise and the stretching and so on, then there's no harm in that. It is looked upon the same way as martial arts, for example. Muslims are often encouraged to learn and practice those. However, if you are referring to the whole 'spiritual' side of it, and the practices of placing this finger on that finger to allow such and such energy to flow and what have you, then that is not allowed.

So it depends on the intention, and god knows best :)

Gwen

07 Jan 2011, 13:14

Hehe

Yeah it was nice to see someone say the things I've been trying to say for so long. However, this is Cracked.com after all, so don't take everything they say as fact. Just a quick example, Muslim women do have to cover their head. So that part of the article isn't saying the truth about Islam. ;)

But thanks for posting!
:D

Fun article indeed! I found the (well-cited) Wiki link list of hijab by country fascinating. Sharia is interpreted in more ways in more places than I was aware of, including Tunisia and several other countries outright discouraging head coverings (either by law or by social norm)--so regardless of Sharia, the actual practices considered normal and good seem to vary a ton. (I knew that burqas were rare internationally, but I did expect the headscarf to be universal.)

Dumuzi

07 Jan 2011, 15:10

Fun article indeed! I found the (well-cited) Wiki link list of hijab by country fascinating. Sharia is interpreted in more ways in more places than I was aware of, including Tunisia and several other countries outright discouraging head coverings (either by law or by social norm)--so regardless of Sharia, the actual practices considered normal and good seem to vary a ton. (I knew that burqas were rare internationally, but I did expect the headscarf to be universal.)

I think you need to realize the difference between two issues. Legal rules and laws on one hand, and religious obligations on the other hand.

It is true that Shari'a law is flexible by nature regarding a lot of issues. However covering the head is a religious obligation. All Muslim scholars agree that it's an obligation because it's based on the Qur'an and Sunnah. That doesn't mean that the state has to make it illegal to not wear it. Do you see the difference?

For example:

It's a religious obligation for Muslims to do Salah five times a day. That doesn't mean you legally have to do it or else you will go to jail. It's something that Allah will judge you for.

Hope that clears things up :)

Gunnarr

09 Jan 2011, 14:55

Gwen

09 Jan 2011, 15:00

I think you need to realize the difference between two issues. Legal rules and laws on one hand, and religious obligations on the other hand.

It is true that Shari'a law is flexible by nature regarding a lot of issues. However covering the head is a religious obligation. All Muslim scholars agree that it's an obligation because it's based on the Qur'an and Sunnah. That doesn't mean that the state has to make it illegal to not wear it. Do you see the difference?

For example:

It's a religious obligation for Muslims to do Salah five times a day. That doesn't mean you legally have to do it or else you will go to jail. It's something that Allah will judge you for.

Hope that clears things up :)

Duly chastened for my sloppiness! :)

I should have first clarified for myself the difference between Sharia and... is there a specific word that means religious obligation? What I meant, though, was regardless of what women are religiously supposed to do, the Wiki article suggests that definitely most but not nearly all Muslim women wear headcoverings, and that there's a national/cultural component. For example, it states that in Bangladesh (90% Muslim) it's mostly rural women who wear it, and that in Jordan about 60% of women wear it. (I just spent some time rummaging through the article's outside links, and at least the ones I hit looked legit. The Jordan figure isn't cited.) Looks like there's some contraversy in Tunisia, a 98% Muslim country in which headcoverings are not traditional, are newly growing, and are seen by the government as a foreign influence. (Check out the BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5382946.stm) and the religion section of the wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunesia#Religion)).

I guess my question is to what degree internationally this

However, this is Cracked.com after all, so don't take everything they say as fact. Just a quick example, Muslim women do have to cover their head. So that part of the article isn't saying the truth about Islam. ;)

describes religious writ versus religious practice, and what you think about what looks like a sometimes/someplaces difference between the two. (For the record, I don't ask about this as any kind of judgment--it's more common for there to be some difference than for all practitioners of a religion to follow all written obligations at all times. That's just people. I trust that God understands.)

Medusa

10 Jan 2011, 01:38

Dumuzi

10 Jan 2011, 07:42

Dumuzi,

A couple of things roaming in my thoughts, firstly I understand that islam wants to protect its women folk, but it also governs violence against them in periods of matrimonial difficulties, this is something, I as a man can not accept using physical punishment against women in the form of a directive.

Hey Modi :)

First of all thank you for taking the time to ask about a very important issue that is often misunderstood and used to falsely accuse Islam of things that are not true.

Secondly, and as to address your comment directly, Islam is the only religion that has a system that eliminates domestic violence completely, if followed the correct way.

I will not go into details in this post but I will only mention three points briefly. My first point is that alcohol consumption can make the issue of domestic violence more severe. This something that is clearly allowed in your religion. But Islam takes care of this by not allowing men (and women obviously) to even have one sip of alcohol.

My second point is that through the rules of Islam, and the practical example of Muhammad, peace be upon him, implementing those rules we can clearly see how domestic violence is not allowed. If you'd like I will give you evidence to support this claim (especially since Qur'anic verses are often misunderstood by non Arabic speaking people), but I will just briefly mention the fact that Muhammad, peace be upon him, never laid a finger on any of his wives, and he is our role model which we are supposed to follow. According to one of his sayings, the best of us are the best in treating their family and wives.

My final point is that when you check what the majority of Muslim scholars say, you'll find that they clearly speak against those crimes. For example, The International Islamic Committee for Women and Child (IICWC) released a charter on family stating in one of its articles:

No matter the extent of the disagreement between the spouses, it is not permissible for either spouse to resort to beating in violation of the limits of the Shari’ah rulings that have been stipulated. Anyone who violates this prohibition will be held responsible civilly and criminally.
source (http://www.iicwc.org/lagna/catig/methak/en/)

Also if you check the statistics you'll know that internationally speaking, and especially in places like your country and the US, it's a very dangerous place to be a woman. Some statistics suggest that 26% of women experience domestic abuse, not even including the sexual abuse they suffer from, and yet those are not Muslim countries. According to Woman's Aid (http://www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic_violence_topic.asp?section=00010001002200 41&sectionTitle=Domestic+violence+%28general%29) in the UK:

An analysis of data from the Intimate Personal Violence (IPV) module British Crime Survey 2001 showed that 26% of women have experienced at least one incident of non-sexual
domestic abuse since they were 16. Note that these figures do not include sexual
abuse (which in many cases is perpetrated by a partner, former partner or other family
member). If sexual assault and stalking are included, then 45% of women have
experienced at least one incident of inter-personal abuse in their lifetimes.

So as you can see men will abuse women no matter what their religion is, however if Muslim rules were used, a lot of these women could have been saved from both domestic violence and also sexual abuse which is severely punished in Islam.

I hope this reply was hopeful for you, though I tried to make it as short as possible. If you have any other questions, please let me know right away :)

The second thing I would like to post is a thank you to the man, Ahmad ibn Fadlān ibn al-Abbās ibn Rašīd ibn Hammād, for his book that gives me historical writings from outside of my own culture, just finished reading it. A great read.

I'm glad you liked Ahmad ibn Fadlan, but I'm sure if you read about Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdulmutalib ibn Hashim ;) and the book that was revealed to him by Allah the creator of all mankind and everything else you will like him even more!

Dumuzi

10 Jan 2011, 10:45

Duly chastened for my sloppiness! :)

I should have first clarified for myself the difference between Sharia and... is there a specific word that means religious obligation? What I meant, though, was regardless of what women are religiously supposed to do, the Wiki article suggests that definitely most but not nearly all Muslim women wear headcoverings, and that there's a national/cultural component. For example, it states that in Bangladesh (90% Muslim) it's mostly rural women who wear it, and that in Jordan about 60% of women wear it. (I just spent some time rummaging through the article's outside links, and at least the ones I hit looked legit. The Jordan figure isn't cited.) Looks like there's some contraversy in Tunisia, a 98% Muslim country in which headcoverings are not traditional, are newly growing, and are seen by the government as a foreign influence. (Check out the BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5382946.stm) and the religion section of the wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunesia#Religion)).

I guess my question is to what degree internationally this

describes religious writ versus religious practice, and what you think about what looks like a sometimes/someplaces difference between the two. (For the record, I don't ask about this as any kind of judgment--it's more common for there to be some difference than for all practitioners of a religion to follow all written obligations at all times. That's just people. I trust that God understands.)

Ah, I see what you mean now!

You are right about what you say. Though it is a religious obligation, not all Muslim women wear it. Thing is, even if you ask almost all women who don't wear it, they will still tell you it's a religious requirement.

Oh and the Arabic word for religious obligation is fard. :)

Gwen

10 Jan 2011, 12:09

You are right about what you say. Though it is a religious obligation, not all Muslim women wear it. Thing is, even if you ask almost all women who don't wear it, they will still tell you it's a religious requirement.

Oh and the Arabic word for religious obligation is fard. :)

Thanks! Do you have any stories/links about how those women who don't wear it but do say it's fard, come to their decision not to wear it (excluding those legally banned from wearing it in certain places and circumstances)?

Hawkfeathers

10 Jan 2011, 12:32

Medusa

10 Jan 2011, 15:02

Similarities between religions always interest me, so I just want to throw this in here - I was raised in a Catholic home and us females always had to wear a hat to church. In fact, my mother used to carry a couple of little lace doilies and bobby pins in her purse in case we stopped by a church, so that we could go in. In Catholic school we wore "beanies" on our heads (looked like yarmulkes). This rule was lifted sometime in the 70's, I believe.

I too was raised in a Catholic home. Since our church was mainly congregated with Hispanics, veils were and are still worn in the church. Catholicism oddly has alot of similarities with Islam. Which is probably why a growing portion of Catholic and Hispanic women revert to Islam. There is a sense of familiarity.

calfhill

10 Jan 2011, 15:41

And many former Catholics are also Pagan, which is why we refer to the church as Pagan-preschool. Until I realized how many Pagans were raise Mormon...

Hawkfeathers

10 Jan 2011, 16:35

Most if not all mainstream religions originated in Paganism, and there are common threads throughout all of them if you look deeply enough. Most people really do want the same things, spiritually.

calfhill

10 Jan 2011, 16:50

Most if not all mainstream religions originated in Paganism, and there are common threads throughout all of them if you look deeply enough. Most people really do want the same things, spiritually.

We all want the same things. We just call these things by different names: Heaven, Summerland, Otherworld, etc

Hawkfeathers

10 Jan 2011, 17:47

We all want the same things. We just call these things by different names: Heaven, Summerland, Otherworld, etc

Exactamundo. And we all talk about peace on Earth but can't seem to achieve it.

Witcher

10 Jan 2011, 18:35

I've always wondered, how do you determine which Hadiths are orthodox and which ones are not?

Dumuzi

11 Jan 2011, 11:46

Thanks! Do you have any stories/links about how those women who don't wear it but do say it's fard, come to their decision not to wear it (excluding those legally banned from wearing it in certain places and circumstances)?

Most of them say that they are not ready yet, and that they will do it when 'god guides them'. They always ask to pray for them.

But I will ask my mother specifically, and tell you what her reply is ;)

Similarities between religions always interest me, so I just want to throw this in here - I was raised in a Catholic home and us females always had to wear a hat to church. In fact, my mother used to carry a couple of little lace doilies and bobby pins in her purse in case we stopped by a church, so that we could go in. In Catholic school we wore "beanies" on our heads (looked like yarmulkes). This rule was lifted sometime in the 70's, I believe.

Yep.

From a Muslim perspective, all these prophets and messengers of god preached the same message and the same religion. And that is the religion of Islam (which means the submission to god and to his will etc)

According to the Qur'an, Mary (peace be upon her) was the best amongst all women of the world and is a role model for all believers. And I find it interesting that if you look at any picture of her, she dresses exactly like Muslim women dress.

Also, in reply to the other comments, I think what makes Islam unique, is that it is the pure and sincere worship of the Creator rather than the creation. Lots of Pagan beliefs incorporate elements of creation into their worship. And that's what sets Islam apart from everyone else. (Though there are gray areas) So it's a really cool topic for discussion, because of all the different opinions! :)

I've always wondered, how do you determine which Hadiths are orthodox and which ones are not?

Oh there's a whole science and methodology for that, the science of Hadith. I can give you links for more details about the topic but I will try to sum it up. It's actually a great academic science, rather than a pure theological one.

Any Hadith consists of two parts. The chain of narrators and the text of the actual saying of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

First there is the investigation of the actual narrators. Who they are, did they report unauthentic sayings before, were they present at that specific place at that specific time. In short you have to determine if the narrator is reliable or not.

And then obviously you have to determine if the chain of narration can be traced back to the Messenger of Allah or not. A Hadith looks like this:

“On the authority of person X, who heard from the companion Y that the Prophet said ‘text goes here’ “

Again, it's a matter of verifying how many persons heard that saying, from how many people, and how many people were present when Muhammad, peace be upon him, mentioned this saying.

And that's why there are different degrees of authenticity regarding those sayings. If the narrators are reliable and there's a huge chain of transmission then the Hadith is regarded as highly authentic.

Gunnarr

12 Jan 2011, 05:11

Dumuzi

12 Jan 2011, 10:56

Dumuzi,

Thank you for your post and words, I have a question as it seems that your saying that women in Islam are protected and equals, Would you please name one country in the world today that is ruled by a Islamic "Shariah" law where women are permitted to vote?

Modi

Hello again Modi :)

This is a very interesting question.

First I have to point out that there are no countries today that are ruled purely by Islamic law. However, I'm assuming you are asking about countries that are run by Muslims mainly, or have a majority Muslim population.

As for your question, there are only two countries in the world today, where specifically women cannot vote. Those countries are Saudi Arabia (They don't actually have elections there, it only happened once in 2005) and the Vatican City.

I will talk about Muslim rules at the end of my reply, but first I want to mention something that I find highly interesting.

While women are permitted to vote in America for example, a female president hasn't been elected yet. (Not that there is anything wrong with that) But let's look at Muslim countries that don't only permit women to vote, but have had very interesting election results.

Indonesia is the number one most populous Muslim majority country and they have elected a female president. That means Muslims have voted for a female to be their leader.

But perhaps that was just an exception?

Pakistan is the second most populous Muslim majority country and not only have they voted for a female head of state, they have done it TWICE, which were non consecutive.

Perhaps that was an exception, too?

Bangladesh is the third most populous Muslim majority country and they have voted two times for female prime ministers.

Just an exception?

Turkey, which is the fifth (I think) most populous Muslim majority country has also elected a female prime minister.

As you can see, the list goes on and on. Which proves that most Muslims in the world have no trouble choosing a woman for their president. So not only are they permitted to vote, they even run whole countries.

And if you look at Muslim rules and history, you'll find out that Islam gave that right to women. On any public matter, a woman may voice her opinion and participate in politics. One example, narrated in the Qur'an (60:12), is that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is told that when the believing women come to him and swear their allegiance to Islam, he must accept their oath. This established the right of women to select their leader and publicly declare so.

I will just leave you with this as food for thought. Islam gave those rights and more to women 1400 years ago. At that time the Pagan Arabs were killing their female infants because they considered it as a shame to their family. And Europe at that time was debating whether women had souls or not.

Medusa

12 Jan 2011, 13:22

Is the Vatican on that list simply because there are no women in the clergy there or is it specifically no women rule? Just really curious about what you found.

Hawkfeathers

12 Jan 2011, 13:40

Gunnarr

12 Jan 2011, 13:52

Dumuzi,

Your answer is not answering the question, I appreciate the time and effort you put in on your posts so i will give you some country's where Islamic and sharia law are in function, these may not be the most populated of country's but where the systems named are in place,

Afghanistan Islamic law
Iran Islamic law
Libya Islamic law
Nigeria Sharia
Oman Sharia and tribal custom laws
Saudi Arabia Islamic law
Sudan Based on Islamic law
Yemen Islamic law

Hope this helps in finding the answer to my question.

Modi

Medusa

12 Jan 2011, 15:38

Would you please name one country in the world today that is ruled by a Islamic "Shariah" law where women are permitted to vote?
Nigeria.

Witcher

12 Jan 2011, 19:21

Nigeria.

Not all of Nigeria is ruled by Sharia, though, if I'm not mistaken. I might be wrong, but I believe that only certain provinces actually use it.

Medusa

13 Jan 2011, 01:54

Not all of Nigeria is ruled by Sharia, though, if I'm not mistaken. I might be wrong, but I believe that only certain provinces actually use it.

I realize this (I did research this first before posting. But since you yourself wrote down Nigeria-Sharai Law, I guess I thought it would be good point to use your very own example, no? )
As fact goes, Nigeria uses Sharai law only in the Muslim regions of its country. These states are Kano, Katsina, Niger, Bauchi, Borno, Kaduna, Gombe, Sokoto, Jigawa, Yobe, and Kebbi

I went with the first state of Kano. I found that women first started voting there (in this Sharai Law state) in the year 1979.

This would be one. So...Nigeria is still my answer. Since in Nigeria where there is Sharai Law, women are able to vote. I hope that satisfies your answer. I still like Dumuzi's answer better than mine though. He's really proving the point your one country answer was really aiming for.

Gunnarr

13 Jan 2011, 12:47

Medusa

13 Jan 2011, 15:11

Medusa,

Firstly maybe more than country is required :D, but more importantly to me anyway is that sharia law was not introduced until June 2000, Women in my understanding have no local vote in the areas where the law in use, Nationally at the moment there is a 50/50 balance on Muslims in Nigeria, but that is due to tip in the favour of Islam in a few years.

Modi

You did ask what country with Sharai Law let's women vote. I gave one. You wanna wish and wash your requirements again? I could go through the entire list...but hey, why don't I just let you do that. You asked. You got your answer.

Gunnarr

13 Jan 2011, 16:04

Medusa

13 Jan 2011, 16:44

I obviously have not posted well, Nigeria gave women the vote in 1979, It no longer has that vote except in non Islamic regions of Nigeria, the area you mentioned in your post did not adopt Sharia law until after that date in June 2000, they have taken away the women's right to vote, locally.

Modi

Well you are indeed right. I did my own investigation (between my being evil time) And I found two facts. There seems to be a problem. There is no one country that is strictly Sharia Law. All the other countries have a mix of Sharia Law and something else. Also when trying to determine what countries have even some form of Sharia I was surprised with the answer.
* Iran
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Nigeria
Sudan
Iraq (prior to 2003)
Egypt
Bahrain
Azerbaijan

and then.....
France
Britain
Sweeden
Belgium
Canada

It seems by that lists women can vote in countries where Sharia Law is practiced in one form or another. What we need is a country where it is only Sharia Law. And when I start investigating I find I still can't find one.
So. Maybe we can do this. You tell me which countries are STRICTLY Sharia Law and I will then investigate to see if women are allowed to vote. But first you must supply the countries YOU agree are Sharia Law ONLY. How's that?

Now this is more of a matter of curiosity.

Gunnarr

13 Jan 2011, 17:20

For me as well, I will try to do this as quickly as possible, i am very busy tomorrow as I am hosting a Þorrablót, as I am Jarl in the Circle of One Harrier, I will however do my best. In relation to being Evil, it reminded me of one of my favourite songs "am I evil " originally by Diamond head, but I like Metallica's version better. Here are some lyrics,

My mother was a witch, she was burned alive
Thankless little bitch, for tears I cried
Take her down now, don't wanna see her face
All blistered and burnt, can't hide my disgrace

Twenty-seven, everyone was nice
Gotta see 'em make 'em pay the price
See their bodies out on the ice
Take my time

Am I evil? Yes, I am
Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

As I watched my mother die, I lost my head
Revenge now I sought, to break with my bread
Taking no chances, you come with me
I'll split you to the bone, help set you free

Twenty-seven, everyone was nice
Gotta see 'em, make 'em pay the price
See their bodies out on the ice
Take my time

Am I evil? Yes, I am
Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am, ooh

and with the action now, I'll strip your pride
I'll spread your blood around, I'll see you writhe
Your face is scarred with steel, wounds deep and neat
Like a devil dancin before ya, smells so sweet

Am I evil? Yes, I am
Am I evil? I am man

I'll make my residence, I'll watch your fire
You can come with me, sweet desire
My face is long forgot, my face not my own
Sweet and timely whore, take me home

Am I evil? Yes, I am
Am I evil? I am man
Go!

Solo!

My soul is longing for, await my heir
Sent to avenge my mother, sweeten myself
My face is long forgot, my face not my own
Sweet and timely whore, take me home

Am I evil? Yes, I am
Am I evil? I am man

Am I evil? Yes, I fucking am
Am I evil? I am man, yeah

Modi

Dumuzi

13 Jan 2011, 21:01

Dumuzi, I have a question.....I notice that you and other Muslims I've heard speak, or read things they've written, always say "Peace be upon him/her" after a reference to some holy figure. Is this a requirement or a custom?

We are told by the Qur'an and the sayings of Muhammad, peace be upon him, to do so. There is great reward in it, and it's also a sign of respect and honor :)

Actually what I type (if i type it at all) is the shorter version of what I actually say. The longer version translates roughly as, "May the blessings and peace of Allah be upon him."

So every time we ask god to send his blessings on Muhammad, god also rewards us by giving us rewards and forgiving us our sins.

Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [Allah to grant him] peace. [33:56]

[hr]

Dumuzi,

Your answer is not answering the question, I appreciate the time and effort you put in on your posts so i will give you some country's where Islamic and sharia law are in function, these may not be the most populated of country's but where the systems named are in place,

Afghanistan Islamic law
Iran Islamic law
Libya Islamic law
Nigeria Sharia
Oman Sharia and tribal custom laws
Saudi Arabia Islamic law
Sudan Based on Islamic law
Yemen Islamic law

Hope this helps in finding the answer to my question.

Modi

Hi Modi

If you read my reply, I already answered your question. I said that all countries permit women to vote (that is if they have elections in the first place) except two countries.

So from that list you gave me, ALL of them permit women to vote except Saudi Arabia, who only had one elections in 2005 anyways.

Furthermore, I have already mentioned to you that women at the time of Muhammad, peace be upon him, had the right to voice their opinion and participate in politics as mentioned in the Qur'an and in the Sunnah. It doesn't get more sharia/Islamic law than the messenger of Allah himself ::) ;)

I would also like to point out that non of those countries have a pure form of Sharia law. For example, in Egypt's constitution it is written that Islam is the source of our law, yet when you actually go through the laws and rules we have, you'll find out they have other sources.

In terms of women, lots of their rights were taken away, that normally are given to them by Islam. An example for that would be a woman's right to get a divorce in accordance to her own will. This right was granted to her by Islam, and yet not so long ago women in Egypt had to either go to court for many months (and sometimes years) or have the permission of the husband in order to get a divorce. This is something that is unislamic.

I hope that this time I was able to answer your question more clearly. :)

magpie

14 Jan 2011, 22:32

im sorry, i dont have a question but i just really wanted to thankyou for all of this information, it is definatly one of the best threads i have ever read on a pagan forum!
thankyou Dumuzi!

Gunnarr

16 Jan 2011, 14:52

It seems Dumuzi that there is no country for us to test this question against, I should have checked that before posing the question. I could reword the question, but that is not fair, I will however post this link, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3734420.stm.

Medusa,

As i explained to Dumuzi, it seems I posed a question that was unfair and not really researched as it should have been, in my defence though it was a response to an answer given in the thread to a previous question :-\ ::) :)

Modi

Medusa

16 Jan 2011, 19:47

Dumuzi

20 Jan 2011, 02:04

im sorry, i dont have a question but i just really wanted to thankyou for all of this information, it is definatly one of the best threads i have ever read on a pagan forum!
thankyou Dumuzi!

Aww thanks! :)

I'm glad it was useful for you. Someone (who will not be named) thinks I can't answer direct questions. :P

It seems Dumuzi that there is no country for us to test this question against, I should have checked that before posing the question. I could reword the question, but that is not fair, I will however post this link, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3734420.stm.

That's what I have been saying again and again.

However, I did give you an example of a time when Sharia law was being used. And in that time women had the right to voice their opinion nad participate in politics, and to also choose their leader. This is documented in the Qur'an itself.

If you have any question, don't be afraid to ask.

magusphredde

26 Jan 2011, 12:04

Hey D ... I have a quandry ...

114:6 ... Jinn?

Dumuzi

27 Jan 2011, 08:54

Hey D ... I have a quandry ...

114:6 ... Jinn?

I'm sorry but where is the question?
???

Simon Slade

27 Jan 2011, 09:42

I'm sorry but where is the question?
???

I think the question is what is a "jinn"? And even if that wasn't his question, that's mine.

Dez

28 Jan 2011, 10:54

Is it true that Egypt cut off the internet (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2011/01/how_egypt_fell_off_the_interne.html)? Is anyone able to get in touch with Dumuzi?

Medusa

28 Jan 2011, 14:46

Maulus

28 Jan 2011, 15:20

Is it true that Egypt cut off the internet (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2011/01/how_egypt_fell_off_the_interne.html)? Is anyone able to get in touch with Dumuzi?

The internet was cut off about 23:30GMT on Thursday (BBC had a usage graph from Egypt, showing it increasing all night and then stopping entirely very suddenly) What i have heard is that all 4 of the ISPs in Egypt are down, the only access via internet is the 4 lines in to the stock exchange.

Mobile networks were also shutdown and all but Government radio broadcasters were taken off air too.

eta [url=http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12306041

M

Hawkfeathers

28 Feb 2011, 11:08

Yesterday at the mall, I saw a young woman wearing a hajib. Her facial features looked Arabic, so I guess she was Muslim. (Could be wrong, you never know!) But my question is about the rest of what she was wearing: skin-tight jeans, knee-high boots with high heels, tight low-cut sweater. So what exactly is the point of covering up the hair? I'm sure none of the guys there would have looked at her hair....

Dumuzi

01 Mar 2011, 06:46

oops, I missed some questions. Gonna have to answer them!

So what exactly is the point of covering up the hair? I'm sure none of the guys there would have looked at her hair....

I think you answered your own question!

They're supposed to wear things that are neither too tight, nor transparent. Or else, what's the point of them ;)

Shahaku

08 Mar 2011, 15:57

I learned what the jinn are in class recently. They are kind of like demons, but not exactly. They have to ability to make choices between good and evil and no jinn is purely evil, except perhaps Satan. They were born of fire. Satan felt that he was above humans because we were born of earth (dirt) and said something of the same to Allah. That led to the struggle between humans and jinn. The jinn try to tempt us to break Allah's law. We can't see them, hear them, etc. but Allah gave signs in the Qur'an for us to use in order to keep them from taking us down the wrong path.

At least that's how I understood it. Maybe Dumuzi can fill in and correct when he has more time.

Charlesmartel

10 Mar 2011, 10:18

Dumuzi, I have been reading your posts. Seems like you have a very good reason to be a Muslim. Could you honestly tell me one thing: What is your perception on Saudi Arabia's monarchy? Do you think it is Islamic? I've heard the royals are corrupt and many modern saudis are trying to dethrone the kings.

Dumuzi

12 Mar 2011, 15:03

At least that's how I understood it. Maybe Dumuzi can fill in and correct when he has more time.

Yeah, pretty much Jinn are another creation of Allah like the angels and humans and so on. They are like humans in terms of they can choose to do right or wrong. Perhaps the most 'famous' of them is Iblis (Satan). I mention this because Jews and Christians believe Satan was an angel, and the Qur'an states otherwise.

There's info about them all through the Qur'an and there's also a Surah (chapter) that is named after them: The Jinn (http://islam.thetruecall.com/Quran_Translation_72_5.htm)

Dumuzi, I have been reading your posts. Seems like you have a very good reason to be a Muslim. Could you honestly tell me one thing: What is your perception on Saudi Arabia's monarchy? Do you think it is Islamic? I've heard the royals are corrupt and many modern saudis are trying to dethrone the kings.

Are you from the CIA? :rolleyes:

Your question is more political than religious, and I try to only focus on questions regarding Islam itself.

But I'll just say that just like any other country, some of their rules are in accordance to Islam, and some of them are not. Unfortunately, some people still think Saudi Arabia is the 'official' representative of Islam.

magusphredde

12 Mar 2011, 22:13

First the quick and easy question ... Could you "fairly accurately" translate Hebrew to English ? ... Just single words so there would be minimal error possible due to context ... These are some names of rocks ... If you could then we move on to the second part ... First I will list the common English spelling then a phonetic spelling with the accented syllable in bold ...

ubaraket ... (baw-reh-keht) ... (baw-rek-eth)

pitdah ... (pit-daw)

odem ... (o-dem)

yahalom ... (yah-hal-ome)

sappir ... (sap-peer)

nophek ... (no-fek)

---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

achlamah ... (akh-law-maw)

shebu ... (sheb-oo)

leshem ... (leh-shem)

yashpheh ... (yaw-shef-ay)

shoham ... (sho-ham)

tarshish ... (tar-sheesh)

Oh yeah ... For everyone else ... These stones were used to make the ceremonial breastplate of Aaron for use during religious rites ...

Aren't I a royal pain in the backside? ...

Dumuzi

13 Mar 2011, 03:34

wut?

I'm confused.

Charlesmartel

13 Mar 2011, 07:53

Are you from the CIA? :rolleyes:

Your question is more political than religious, and I try to only focus on questions regarding Islam itself.

But I'll just say that just like any other country, some of their rules are in accordance to Islam, and some of them are not. Unfortunately, some people still think Saudi Arabia is the 'official' representative of Islam.

Dumuzi, I think you know that Islam is more than just a religion. It is a complete code of life. Anyway put that aside, religion influences politics. Take for example of sub-continent nation such as: India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. Even the US.

Glad that you said it is unfortunate some people think Saudi Arabia to be an official representative of Islam.

I have another question for you:

I don't know if it is a verse of Quran or a portion of hadith: "know yourself, know God"

Could you edify me what is that actually meant by that above quoted?

P.S. Sorry I am not from the CIA. If I were I wouldn't be asking questions here. :p

magusphredde

13 Mar 2011, 15:14

I was hoping you could translate Hebrew ... Unfortunately My brain was not working at the time of the post ... I should have realized that being Egyptian your language would be Arabic ...

But perhaps you could help anyway ... What is your take on the twelve tribes of Israel and the Exodus? ...

Dumuzi

16 Mar 2011, 18:02

I have another question for you:

I don't know if it is a verse of Quran or a portion of hadith: "know yourself, know God"

Could you edify me what is that actually meant by that above quoted?

Hmmm, I never heard of this. I mean, it's not in the Qur'an. There's something similar though that is said in Christianity.

P.S. Sorry I am not from the CIA. If I were I wouldn't be asking questions here. :p

Haha. I'm Egyptian, don't make me overthrow your government! :D

I was hoping you could translate Hebrew ... Unfortunately My brain was not working at the time of the post ... I should have realized that being Egyptian your language would be Arabic ...

But perhaps you could help anyway ... What is your take on the twelve tribes of Israel and the Exodus? ...
Hehe, don't worry about it!

In the Qur'an, the prophet mentioned the most is Moses, peace be upon him. So there's lots of parts of the Qur'an that talk about these events.

Roknrol

16 Mar 2011, 18:11

Magus: Check over at Cern's site (http://paganandchristianmoot.co.uk I think)...if anyone that I know can read Hebrew, they'll be over there - and I'm pretty sure a couple of them could help you out ;)

Shahaku

24 Mar 2011, 07:21

Dumuzi, can the jinn die? And if they can, do they have a place in the Hereafter?

Dumuzi

27 Mar 2011, 01:05

Dumuzi, can the jinn die? And if they can, do they have a place in the Hereafter?

Yes, they die, everything does! Except God, of course.

Their place in the Hereafter depends on their deeds, just like the human beings. So the good amongst them will be rewarded, and the bad ones will be punished.

Here are a few verses from a chapter of the Qur'an entitled "The Jinn":

And among us are the righteous, and among us are [others] not so; we were [of] divided ways.
And we have become certain that we will never cause failure to Allah upon earth, nor can we escape Him by flight.
And when we heard the guidance, we believed in it. And whoever believes in his Lord will not fear deprivation or burden.
And among us are Muslims [in submission to Allah], and among us are the unjust. And whoever has become Muslim - those have sought out the right course.
But as for the unjust, they will be, for Hell, firewood.'

Shahaku

10 Apr 2011, 12:55

So do the angels die as well? They were explained to me as immortal beings of a sort, with no divinity in them. I wonder if they are as the universe itself, lasting until the end of time? And how is time veiwed in Islam? Is it unending? After the Hereafter does time and space still exist? Do the jinn and/or human beings and/or the living creatures of earth have any divinity in them (since the angels were very specifically described as not having divinity in them, I've come to wonder this)?

We read an article on Sufism and I was wondering how you veiwed this and if it was as mainstream as the article made it sound. The article made it seem that every Muslim beleived they could receive signs from God in the form of dreams or "miricle" type actions (people not being where they were supposed to be primarily) How do you veiw God and your relationship with the divine? Do you beleive you have or can develop a direct of somewhat direct line of communication and/or receive signs from God in the present?

Dumuzi

15 Apr 2011, 03:30

Oh, so many questions! :D

I'll answer the first half of your questions first. As Muslims we believe that there is no deity or god except Allah. He is Al-Quddus (The Holy/Pure) meaning all attributes of perfection and beauty belong to him. And that he is exalted and/or above any imperfections or ascribing partners or equals or sons to him.

So we don't ascribe divinity to any of his creation. He is the one who has created us and he is the only master of the worlds.

We also believe that things like time and space are creations of Allah. He created them and has complete power over them. This is why questions like where or when is god do not really apply to him. He is beyond space and time so to speak. We often point above when asked where is god. We don't mean it in a geographical sense, but rather that he is above/beyond this creation.

So angels, humans, jinn, animals, plants, oceans, mountains, planets, stars and everything else, is nothing but a creation of Allah. They all submit to his will and even praise him in ways that we cannot understand as humans. I always say this, according to Islam, every single thing is Muslim. As in the whole universe is submitting to Allah and to his will and laws. The exception would be humans and jinn that seem to have a choice in this life of accepting or rejecting the message.

Shahaku

18 May 2011, 17:21

I got a C in my Islam class... Just thought I'd share. Not as well as I had hoped, but it's okay I guess.

One thing my teacher said that I wanted to ask you about. He made it seem as if the veil was a modern thing and not really required by the Qur'an. I was wondering if maybe it was the niqabs that are modern while the headscarves are what is required?

Dumuzi

19 May 2011, 11:57

All scholars agree that Hijab is a requirement because it is mentioned in the Qur'an, however as regards to the Niqab, most scholars I know say that it is not required while only some of them disagree, so it's OK both ways :)

thalassa

05 Jun 2011, 17:54

D, are there any specific texts/teachings on the subject of hospitality?

Dumuzi

06 Jun 2011, 13:18

D, are there any specific texts/teachings on the subject of hospitality?

Yes, yes. :)

The first thing that comes to mind is this saying of Muhammad, peace be upon him:
"Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him speak good or keep silent. Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him be kind to his neighbor. And whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him be generous to his guest."

Dez

06 Jun 2011, 14:26

Dumuzi

06 Jun 2011, 15:28

Hey D,

I don't know if you've ever answered this before, but if Jesus is seen as a prophet by the Muslim world, how is his consumption of alcohol, specifically wine, handled(Wedding at Cana, Last Supper, etc)?

Thing is that we do believe in the Gospel (Injeel) that was revealed to Jesus, peace be upon him, but we don't believe the Bible we have today is the actual book that was revealed to him. We believe these books were written later on and were corrupted by the men writing them. Meaning that we don't have to believe in the stories that are mentioned in them. So Muslims don't believe that Jesus used to drink alcohol, especially since there's no mention of that specific miracle in the Qur'an.

Dez

06 Jun 2011, 17:34

Ah...makes sense. Thank you!

kijani

11 Jun 2011, 23:53

This may have been mentioned already and I may have missed it, but I was curious about a few things, actually.

1. What is the view on people who convert from Islam to another religion (let's say for the sake of this question that they convert to another religion that is inside the Christianity umbrella)? and

2. What about conversion in general? Is there an active effort (as there is within some branches of Christianity) to save or convert non-Muslims to the faith? What does the Quran say about that sort of thing? I'm just curious, and I apologize if you've answered these a million times already :<

Dumuzi

16 Jun 2011, 15:26

Hi kijani!

1. What is the view on people who convert from Islam to another religion (let's say for the sake of this question that they convert to another religion that is inside the Christianity umbrella)?

Leaving Islam after believing in it is a big deal in Islam. It doesn't matter if they follow Christianity or any other religion. If someone converts to another religion then according to the Qur'an they committed a big crime.

"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." [4:137]

So as you can see, they will not be forgiven. However, the Qur'an itself doesn't prescribe any punishment in this life for someone leaving Islam. There is a debate however about regarding punishing someone who leaves Islam because of certain Hadiths in the Sunnah. At that time, when someone left Islam, they joined the disbelievers in fighting Muslims so it was considered an act of treason, as opposed to a mere case of changing one's religion.

2. What about conversion in general? Is there an active effort (as there is within some branches of Christianity) to save or convert non-Muslims to the faith? What does the Quran say about that sort of thing? I'm just curious, and I apologize if you've answered these a million times already :<

Calling people to Islam is an obligation on every Muslim. As in we are told to invite people to Islam, according to certain guidelines, of course. The Qur'an says:

"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance." [16:125]

Whether people accept that invitation or not, is something up to them. We firmly believe that guidance comes from God and not from us, we just do our part in inviting people. Whether or not they accept Islam is something between them and God.

That's why I say we don't convert people to Islam, because we don't have control over that, but we invite people to Islam.

kijani

17 Jun 2011, 01:49

Awesome, D! Thanks for that. I saw something on television and I was really curious about that. Thanks for clearing it up. I'll probably come back in a little bit with more questions for you to answer. :D

thalassa

30 Aug 2011, 19:05

I know you have answered the dietary one at some point in time...but these are questions for another person...

What are your beliefs/practices regarding birth (as a Muslim)?

What are your beliefs/practices regarding death?

How would you describe the typical diet? Which foods are forbiden and which foods are encouraged?

MaskedOne

30 Aug 2011, 19:18

Hi kijani!

Leaving Islam after believing in it is a big deal in Islam. It doesn't matter if they follow Christianity or any other religion. If someone converts to another religion then according to the Qur'an they committed a big crime.

"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." [4:137]

So as you can see, they will not be forgiven. However, the Qur'an itself doesn't prescribe any punishment in this life for someone leaving Islam. There is a debate however about regarding punishing someone who leaves Islam because of certain Hadiths in the Sunnah. At that time, when someone left Islam, they joined the disbelievers in fighting Muslims so it was considered an act of treason, as opposed to a mere case of changing one's religion.

Missed this hefore but is that the only line regarding leaving Islam? I'm curious because the repeated switching "believe, then disbelieve, then believe, then disbelieve" doesn't strike me at first glance as sincere religious conversion so much as a person saying "I'll believe whatever is convenient at any given moment." while Allah is saying "Either you're sincere and I'm with you through thick and thin or you're wasting my time with lip service and I will repay you precisely what you have invested."

Medusa

31 Aug 2011, 16:33

*steps away from typewriter

Dumuzi might take a while to get back to us on this stuff. He's currently on vacation in Marina. And when he comes back he will then be heading right to work at the hospital! :)

habbalah

16 Dec 2011, 09:35

I have two questions for you. The first came as a response to an issue that's been all over the news lately, about an Afghani woman who was jailed after her cousin raped her. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16179236 This is the story if you're not familiar with it, but the short is that because her cousin is married, it was considered adultery, which is why she was jailed. I understand that this isn't the country you're from, but question to you, and please understand that I asked this in all respect, is what the Qu'ran actually says about rape and if it's considered adultery.

The second came from a discussion with my mother. In the Bible, it was promised to David that from his seed would come the Son of God. I read where you mentioned earlier that some parts of the bible are believed to be corrupted by man. Is this a part of the bible that holds true in Islam? If so, how did Muhammed tie into David's bloodline?

Dumuzi

20 Dec 2011, 09:12

I understand that this isn't the country you're from, but question to you, and please understand that I asked this in all respect, is what the Qu'ran actually says about rape and if it's considered adultery.

Thank you for your question!

Unfortunately, I cannot understand why anyone would want to punish a rape victim, and then go easy on the rapist. Rape is one of the worst crimes I can think of, something I wish no one has to go through.

Islamically speaking, I can't find evidence for the way this victim was treated. The Qur'an doesn't talk about rape directly, but there are sayings of Muhammad, peace be upon him, where a rapists was put to death for his crime. Nothing was done to the victim.

That's why most scholars agree that the punishment for rape is death. You can read more about it here: http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/219

The second came from a discussion with my mother. In the Bible, it was promised to David that from his seed would come the Son of God. I read where you mentioned earlier that some parts of the bible are believed to be corrupted by man. Is this a part of the bible that holds true in Islam? If so, how did Muhammed tie into David's bloodline?

First, in Islam we don't believe that god has any sons. He is above that. Second, we do believe that Moses and Jesus, peace be upon him, did receive divine revelation, but the words that are found in the Bible today, can hardly be attributed to them. This is something that even biblical scholars agree with.

As for David's bloodline, there is no mention of that in the Qur'an. Bloodlines and race play very little roles in Islam. So I don't know how Muhammad ties into David's bloodline!

I don't know if that's related, but Muhammad is a descendent of Ishmael who's the son of Abraham, peace be upon all of them. So they're kinda related :p

anunitu

20 Dec 2011, 09:21

Good to see you posting D,from the news it seems a bit dangerous there right now. Be safe,and watch your back.

habbalah

20 Dec 2011, 15:22

Thank you very much for answering my questions. I appreciate it.

Dumuzi

23 Dec 2011, 03:38

Good to see you posting D,from the news it seems a bit dangerous there right now. Be safe,and watch your back.

Thanks, anunitu :)

Thank you very much for answering my questions. I appreciate it.
You're welcome! If you have any more questions just let me know ;)

habbalah

23 Dec 2011, 04:23

Oh, I just thought of one! I could probably look this up, but I'll ask you instead: What things are forbidden (is haram the word?) in Islam? The ones I believe I know are drinking alcohol, eating pork, having sex before marriage, depicting Allah visually (like, drawing a picture of Him) and making jokes about Islam.

Dumuzi

28 Dec 2011, 11:20

Oh, I just thought of one! I could probably look this up, but I'll ask you instead: What things are forbidden (is haram the word?) in Islam?

Yep, haram is the word!

The general rule is that everything is allowed, unless indicated otherwise. Though it would be hard for me to answer this question without narrowing it down. Because there are different topics that fall under being haram. Like, lying, backbiting, stealing, killing, cheating, bribes, alcohol and so on.

We believe god has allowed to us all things which are good for us, and has forbidden to us all things which are bad for us.

Indeed, Allah orders justice and the doing of good (to others) and bringing (charity) to a near kinsman and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded. [16:90]

ConnollyCelt

24 Jan 2012, 12:30

Hello!

I am sorry if you have already recieved this question, but about a year ago I was on the verge of converting to Islam. I was confused, disheartened with both atheism and christianity, and Islam really appealed to me. But in the end I could not join, because of the whole idea of eternal damnnation etc. I tried to ignore those passages like I ignored specific passages in the Bible, but since it was gods word I saw it as final and non-negotable.

So I guess what I'm asking is the Muslim view on hell and what happenes to non-believers after death?

Thank you! I am really glad that you are here to answer our questions :)

Dumuzi

19 Feb 2012, 06:42

Your question hasn't been asked before! (At least I don't remember it :p)

First I'd like to say that I respect your decision of wanting to accept all of the parts, rather than accepting some parts and ignoring others. In my honest opinion, this is a form of hypocrisy.

The short answer is that, yes, we do believe in hell. I've heard different opinions though. Some say it is eternal for some people and temporary for others. But the general idea behind it, is that you cannot reject god's mercy and then complain when you don't receive it at the same time. According to the Qur'an god's mercy compasses all things, so we should all seek it.

Hope that answers your question :)

PS: I wanted to comment some more, but it wasn't really related to your question. I've been told that I talk too much, so I didn't want to overwhelm you!

GabrielWithoutWings

19 Feb 2012, 19:29

Dumuzi,

Does the idea of virtuous Paganism exist in Islam? I know that many Muslim scientists were ecstatic when the Greek philosophers were translated but I've never actually heard any yea or nay to the theism side of it.

Also, do you believe that Monists (of whatever qualification) will be forgiven by Allah for being 'semi-monotheists'?

Dumuzi

22 Feb 2012, 15:01

Dumuzi,

Does the idea of virtuous Paganism exist in Islam? I know that many Muslim scientists were ecstatic when the Greek philosophers were translated but I've never actually heard any yea or nay to the theism side of it.

Can you explain what you mean by that? Are you asking if there are Pagans that are virtuous? (Sorry, my brainz is tired right now!)

Also, do you believe that Monists (of whatever qualification) will be forgiven by Allah for being 'semi-monotheists'?

Being a Monist or Monotheist does not make one automatically a Muslim. Muslim is just an Arabic word, meaning one who submits (to God). Of course, that submission means you have to follow god, his message, and his messengers and so on.

Anyways, as I understand it, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Monists seem like a form of Pantheists. Which doesn't make a distinction between creator and creation. In Islam, however, there is nothing equal or like god in this creation. So if someone believes the creation is equal or part of god, then they are associating something with god, which is a really big deal in Islam.

GabrielWithoutWings

22 Feb 2012, 22:23

Can you explain what you mean by that? Are you asking if there are Pagans that are virtuous? (Sorry, my brainz is tired right now!)

Yes. Is there such a thing as virtuous Paganism in Islam? Islamic philosophers loved the teachings of Plato and Aristotle and others but I've never seen anything on their beliefs, since a lot of Christians (especially during the Middle Ages) had an idea of virtuous Paganism.

Being a Monist or Monotheist does not make one automatically a Muslim. Muslim is just an Arabic word, meaning one who submits (to God). Of course, that submission means you have to follow god, his message, and his messengers and so on.

Anyways, as I understand it, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Monists seem like a form of Pantheists. Which doesn't make a distinction between creator and creation. In Islam, however, there is nothing equal or like god in this creation. So if someone believes the creation is equal or part of god, then they are associating something with god, which is a really big deal in Islam.

Well, I wasn't asking about being Muslim. I was asking if Muslims (or, just you) believe Allah will show mercy to those that, while not being Muslim, still believe in one God, eg, Jews, Baha'is, Christians, Hanif, Zoroastrians, etc. Monism isn't necessarily Pantheism. Pantheism equates God with the Universe. Monism means that Creation issues forth from God like waves issue from a stone dropped in a pool of water, as opposed to one moment in Creation where there was nothing and then God creates ex nihilo.

MaskedOne

23 Feb 2012, 05:32

You may want to explain the specific context to the phrase 'Virtuous Pagan' Gabriel. That phrase is mildly misleading if you aren't familiar with Church history and doctrine.

anunitu

23 Feb 2012, 05:34

I always wondered about the Sufi,and how they fit into the belief system.

GabrielWithoutWings

23 Feb 2012, 09:47

Medusa

23 Feb 2012, 13:10

Gabe, you probably aren't going to like the answer. Though Dumuzi is a great and nice guy. He's a Fundamentalist. And there will be no iffies in his beliefs. :p

Dumuzi

23 Feb 2012, 16:26

A virtuous Pagan was a person, though they had Pagan beliefs, were still considered to be an asset to theology or even favored by God, before the coming of Christianity or Islam.

For example, if you read Inferno by Dante, he meets up with Virgil, who is described as a virtuous Pagan.

Usually to mean philosophers who helped formulate arguments for the existence of One God, as opposed to several polytheistic deities, eg, Aristotle's Unmoved Prime Mover and that sort of thing.

Oh now I understand what you mean. You are asking about people who didn't hear about the message and how they'd be judged, correct?

Hmm it's kinda complicated so I gotta mention a few things first. First I gotta clear up a misconception. We don't believe Islam is a religion that started with Muhammad. It's the religion of all messengers and prophets all the way back to Adam. The Qur'an also states that to all nations a messenger was sent.

We also believe that all human beings were born with a fitra. Which is the natural state that we are born with, that makes us inclined to be good. In other words, we are all born Muslim in the general sense.

To answer your question directly, we believe that god is just. So if someone never heard about the message then they will be judged according to their actions and the intentions of their heart. In short, the only one that can judge them is the one that knows what's in their hearts.

Well, I wasn't asking about being Muslim. I was asking if Muslims (or, just you) believe Allah will show mercy to those that, while not being Muslim, still believe in one God, eg, Jews, Baha'is, Christians, Hanif, Zoroastrians, etc. Monism isn't necessarily Pantheism. Pantheism equates God with the Universe. Monism means that Creation issues forth from God like waves issue from a stone dropped in a pool of water, as opposed to one moment in Creation where there was nothing and then God creates ex nihilo.

Allah shows mercy to who he wants. It is considered arrogant to speak for god in regards to that subject. At the same time it's very important to point out that in terms of religion, the Qur'an is very clear that the only way of life accepted by god is Islam.

So if someone wants the mercy of Allah, they have to seek it first. Someone might claim to believe in god, but what good does believing do, if someone wants to go against god? The best example I can think of is that of Satan. Satan is also a believer of god, and a monotheist. Does that automatically make him someone that will enter heaven?

Like I mentioned before in this thread, you cannot reject god's mercy and then complain when you don't get it at the same time. One has to seek it first.

Medusa

23 Feb 2012, 20:26

Fitra. What if I am in my fitra and it's my state to be just the way I am..an Atheist. Then what?:confused:

Dumuzi

25 Feb 2012, 10:44

Fitra. What if I am in my fitra and it's my state to be just the way I am..an Atheist. Then what?:confused:

I know that's what you believe. But Muslims believe that god created us with that inborn natural predisposition. However, in the general sense, it's not just about submitting to god but also to do good in general. So in reality you do lots of things in accordance to your Fitra. You follow lots of the rules of god, even though you don't even believe in him. That's because you are following that part of your nature.

You were raised Catholic, think of it as the Original Sin, only the opposite :p

So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. [30:30]

habbalah

25 Feb 2012, 17:34

Now that's it been brought up, can you explain what fitra is?

GabrielWithoutWings

26 Feb 2012, 20:55

Gabe, you probably aren't going to like the answer. Though Dumuzi is a great and nice guy. He's a Fundamentalist. And there will be no iffies in his beliefs. :p

Not a problem. I investigated Islam about six years ago and respect it greatly, even if I disagree with a lot of what it says.

I would expect no less.

Dumuzi

28 Feb 2012, 10:19

Now that's it been brought up, can you explain what fitra is?

Sure. Like I said before, Fitrah is our natural disposition that we are born with. In Islam we believe all human beings are born Muslim, but it's their parents/society that raise them up to follow other religions. So when someone becomes a Muslim after they grow up, they are really just returning to their original state or nature.

habbalah

28 Feb 2012, 11:50

Sure. Like I said before, Fitrah is our natural disposition that we are born with. In Islam we believe all human beings are born Muslim, but it's their parents/society that raise them up to follow other religions. So when someone becomes a Muslim after they grow up, they are really just returning to their original state or nature.

What about the people who never hear the teachings of Islam? Either because the religion hasn't spread to their part of the world, or they simply never have the opportunity to learn about it before they die. Whatever the reason.

Dumuzi

28 Feb 2012, 13:20

What about the people who never hear the teachings of Islam? Either because the religion hasn't spread to their part of the world, or they simply never have the opportunity to learn about it before they die. Whatever the reason.

What about them? Are you asking how they are judged?

anunitu

28 Feb 2012, 13:25

Though I asked this before,it was such a short post,you might have missed my question..What I asked was how the Sufi fit into the nature and overall structure of Islam?

Dumuzi

29 Feb 2012, 09:29

Though I asked this before,it was such a short post,you might have missed my question..What I asked was how the Sufi fit into the nature and overall structure of Islam?

ooops, sorry!

Sufi isn't really a different sect of Islam. In terms of beliefs we all believe in the same things, with the exception of a few groups here and there. Just like there are different schools of thought in regards to the sciences of laws and rules in Islam, Sufi or Tasawwuf is about the science of good manners. That is they concern themselves on how to live in order to grow closer to god. Often, they try to move away from pleasures of this world, so they can dedicate themselves completely to god.

In my opinion, it's more of an extreme spiritual way to look at religion.

anunitu

29 Feb 2012, 09:37

Thanks for the explanation,I had no real understanding about this before.

Raphaeline

06 Apr 2012, 17:07

I went to service today at the local masjed to observe. I have two questions:

The imam gave a speech entirely in Arabic, and then repeated it (I think, because obviously I didn't understand the first half, but that's the impression I got), but the second half contained probably around 40% Arabic, too (usually involving quotes from the Qu'ran). Is speaking at least SOME Arabic considered obligatory?

Secondly, my friend and I were the only females in the building with the exception of about six young girls and five other women, but there were about a hundred men there. Did we happen to come on a day with some special significance for men? I wondered if maybe there was a separate service for the women because the five praying women stayed not just in the back of the room but instead were in a hallway off to the side (facing the glowing EXIT sign in the dark, which seemed awfully lonely compared to the grand open room the men were in... I was surprised that they chose to be so separate)...
Why might there be so few women present?

Dumuzi

07 Apr 2012, 08:23

I went to service today at the local masjed to observe. I have two questions:
Oh, that must have been the Friday prayer! (think of it as Sunday, when Christians go to Church)

The imam gave a speech entirely in Arabic, and then repeated it (I think, because obviously I didn't understand the first half, but that's the impression I got), but the second half contained probably around 40% Arabic, too (usually involving quotes from the Qu'ran). Is speaking at least SOME Arabic considered obligatory?

First, remember that I live in a country who's official language is Arabic, so all the speech is in Arabic over here. However, when I went abroad I noticed they do what you just described in the mosque I prayed at. First they give the speech in Arabic, and then they repeat it in the native language of the country. However, when I sometimes look up speeches online, I find lots of them are just in English, since that's the language everyone in the audience would understand.

The point of the speech is to deliver a message to the audience, so it's crucial to use a language everyone would understand. Assuming everyone can speak Arabic, when you live in a non Arab country is a huge mistake.

Of course it's important for Muslims to learn Arabic because it helps understanding the religion and the Qur'an, but for the very least you need to understand some short passages or else you wouldn't be able to do your daily Salah, (prayer).

Secondly, my friend and I were the only females in the building with the exception of about six young girls and five other women, but there were about a hundred men there. Did we happen to come on a day with some special significance for men? I wondered if maybe there was a separate service for the women because the five praying women stayed not just in the back of the room but instead were in a hallway off to the side (facing the glowing EXIT sign in the dark, which seemed awfully lonely compared to the grand open room the men were in... I was surprised that they chose to be so separate)...
Why might there be so few women present?

The Friday prayer is an obligation for men to attend, while it is optional for women. Because of that, the number of men is always much higher than the number of women. However, here's what I think is going on over there.

It must be much harder over there to be able to build mosques and make them as spacious as you would want. So I'm assuming they get packed by Muslim men, and they end up neglecting the women's section, unfortunately, because their number is usually fewer. I've heard this complaint a lot from over there.

I'd go there again when it isn't Friday at noon. Because that's the busiest time of the week. Even over here, when I go late to the mosque I end up praying outside on the street, because the mosques are filled. I have to take a rug with me or else I pray on the concrete.

Siloh

07 Apr 2012, 09:56

Hi Dumuzi,

I've absolutely loved reading through this thread. With "Ask a..." threads, I really try to read the whole thing before asking any questions, but I'm having a helluvah time digging through all of this, as it seems to be a particularly long thread. So, please forgive me, because I'd really like to ask this question, and I'm going to quote one of your very old posts (page 18), which is fresh to me.

This is an upsetting question for me, and maybe it is for you, but I think asking is the only way for me to gain any understanding at all, particularly because I really enjoy learning about Islam and you are a very patient source.

I am willing to die for really only one vaguely religious cause, because it is a matter, to me, of both religious freedom and politics. Also, like many causes embroiled in religion, I cannot (for the life of me!) understand the other side's feelings.

So yes, we do take those rules seriously and we accept them. Even those rules that may seem too violent, they are always presented as half truths, and the true purpose of them is often distorted. And the saddest thing in my opinion is when people sum up the whole law into just one act of punishment and forget everything else about that law.

They forget how under it everyone is treated justly and equally. And how under it the non Muslim's life, property, honor and places of worship are protected by the state.

Here is your quote.

Here is my question:

Ready?
Israel.
Before the six-day war in 1967, East Jerusalem was under Muslim control. Of course, the Abrahamic faiths all treasure this little stamp of land, because lots of important things happened there.

When East Jerusalem was under Muslim control, all non-Muslims were barred from entering. Que latisma. Every day Jews pray toward the Kotel. Even as someone who is really iffy about deities, when I laid my hand upon the rock toward which I'd prayed my whole life, it was powerful, almost relieving.

When the Israelis took over the Old City, they put each faith in charge of its own paramount relic. Therefore, we have the Kotel run by Jews, the Dome of the Holy Rock is run by Muslims, and whatever the heck interests Christians is presumably being run by Christians.

Non-Muslims are not permitted to see the Dome of the Holy Rock. In fact, there were IDF soldiers providing security for the Muslim management when I went, in case it came under threat. Israel endorses the Muslims' rights to manage their holy site however they feel fit, even though this site is of much significance to other religions.

One of the more troubling issues concerning land in Israel is that Hamas demands the Israelis return East Jerusalem. This is a big problem. The last time East Jerusalem was outside Israeli power, Jews were forbidden from their most holy city. With the Israelis in control of the Old City, each faith has been granted power over certain sites, reinforced by IDF protection.

Now, Hamas, I understand, is a terrorist group. I'm not using them as representatives of Islam. That would be like holding up Yitzhak Rabin's assassin as the leader of the Jews. Not okay.

Unfortunately, Hamas has a great amount of governmental-type authority in the Gaza Strip, and they have pushed to become the spokespeople of the Palestinians who happen to live in that tiny region specifically. So I'm definitely not trying to claim that Hamas is representative here.

However. As a group that has very vehemently claimed to be authoritative in matters of Islam and the Palestinian community (I know how untrue the latter usually is, so I'm not putting a bunch of stock in the former), how is it they cannot abide by the way East Jerusalem is currently being dealt with? Many people's religious freedoms are put at risk were Israel to comply and "give back" East Jerusalem, not to mention I think those practicing Muslims are given the best protection possible through the aid provided by the IDF.

Okay, boiled down, what's their beef? Can you figure it out? I have no basis through which to comprehend the desire to own the Old City in light of how it is being managed currently, particularly since the Qua'ran is down with that good religious freedom stuff.

Also, what is it with the no non-Muslims at the Dome of the Holy Rock? Is that religious, cultural, political, or some mesh of those items? mean, when I say I'd die for this cause, I mean I support how Israel has chosen to handle their power over East Jerusalem, and I would lay down my soul to defend practitioners' rights against any threat, just like those IDF soldiers stand outside the DHR and guard it, even against their own families. I am just curious about why this is so, if you have some thoughts.

My framing of these questions is extensive because this is my frame. If you have a different frame you'd like to supply or apply, please do so.

This is about me trying to understand the only fear I have of something vaguely related to Islam. I am worried that one day I will have to go and fight for the religious rights of all in East Jerusalem one day, because it will be threatened by a group that identifies itself as a Muslim group. I saw your quote about protecting the freedoms of non-Muslims, and now I am confused as to why this is an issue at all.

My general assumption is that it is as PM Rabin's assassination. A fanatic Jew gunned down a man who brought hope to Israel and its neighbors, and the Jews cried and continue to lament this act of zealotry every year. This, we know, was no missionary of God but a man misguided to do violence.

Thank you for your patience.

Raphaeline

07 Apr 2012, 10:51

First, remember that I live in a country who's official language is Arabic, so all the speech is in Arabic over here. However, when I went abroad I noticed they do what you just described in the mosque I prayed at. First they give the speech in Arabic, and then they repeat it in the native language of the country. However, when I sometimes look up speeches online, I find lots of them are just in English, since that's the language everyone in the audience would understand.

The point of the speech is to deliver a message to the audience, so it's crucial to use a language everyone would understand. Assuming everyone can speak Arabic, when you live in a non Arab country is a huge mistake.

Of course it's important for Muslims to learn Arabic because it helps understanding the religion and the Qur'an, but for the very least you need to understand some short passages or else you wouldn't be able to do your daily Salah, (prayer).

I wasn't sure how much of the fact that the speech was given in Arabic was practical and how much was spiritual - I mean, if it was only done as a means to make sure everyone understood, or whether the language itself is considered sacred. Obviously it might be difficult for you to answer since you don't live in the place I'm referring to!

Your answer makes me wonder something else, too... Is it necessary to recite the prayer in Arabic?

The Friday prayer is an obligation for men to attend, while it is optional for women. Because of that, the number of men is always much higher than the number of women. However, here's what I think is going on over there.

It must be much harder over there to be able to build mosques and make them as spacious as you would want. So I'm assuming they get packed by Muslim men, and they end up neglecting the women's section, unfortunately, because their number is usually fewer. I've heard this complaint a lot from over there.

I'd go there again when it isn't Friday at noon. Because that's the busiest time of the week. Even over here, when I go late to the mosque I end up praying outside on the street, because the mosques are filled. I have to take a rug with me or else I pray on the concrete.

You know, when I was in there, I was truly disappointed in how small it was. I was there Thursday as well, when it was empty, and was given a tour by the imam and a woman from Bosnia. Over half of their congregation is Bosnian and there are 27 other nations represented there - there are 280 in their congregation. And the place was so small, I thought... How do they find room for them all?! So that really explains it - the women don't go to make room for the men.

Boy, I wish I'd known that! I took one step into the room where everyone was worshiping and suddenly realized I was the only female in the room. I turned right around and exited before anyone saw me... That's when I noticed the three or four women sitting in the hallway and just sat down there instead.

Oh, and one more question. When we asked Thursday what time we should come Friday, everyone said service started at noon. So we showed up at 12PM and there was no one there. We made a call and asked where everyone was, and the reply was, "Oh, when they say 'noon' they mean 1!" We tried coming up with a satisfactory answer as to why that might be and couldn't figure it out!

Oh, that must have been the Friday prayer! (think of it as Sunday, when Christians go to Church)

I remember one Friday afternoon months ago when my mother drove past the mosque on the way to the grocery. She said, "Wow, there sure are a lot of people there for a Friday."

Medusa

07 Apr 2012, 13:31

Rafe, I'm going to go visit my local one and report back on size etc. Of course I can't go on a Friday when I work. So I'll see the place on another day. Just wanting to see the differences between countries...and states! California it will be more Malaysian Muslims. At least in my area.

thalassa

07 Apr 2012, 13:58

Rafe, maybe because of daylight savings time?

Like...spring forward, what *should* be noon becomes 1?

Medusa

08 Apr 2012, 01:28

Not to overthrow Dumuzi's thread...
*pushes him over.

I contacted my local mosque and the man who answered my e-mail will be forwarding it to a woman who can help me set up a tour of the place etc. This is the one I'll be going to. http://www.icsgv.com/
This place has it going on!

Raphaeline

08 Apr 2012, 08:00

Rafe, maybe because of daylight savings time?

Like...spring forward, what *should* be noon becomes 1?

Oh, that kills me. My friend and I actually mentioned it could be of daylights savings time, but we somehow managed to get it backward. Like, we were thinking it would be 11 instead.

D'oh.

Corvus

08 Apr 2012, 16:56

I recently had to do a paper on the persecution of the Jewish people and naturally I came across a lot of stories about Arab persecution of Jews. Every source I found made a clear point that all non-Muslims are treated the same way (actually the word dhimmi was used, which one site said meant nonbeliever?). Then there was lists of different restrictions and things that non-Muslims had to do under Muslim rulers. Like they're not allowed to own horses, have to wear dark robes or colored badges, not allowed to mourn in the presence of a Muslim, not practice their religion in public, and a head tax to be paid. I'm just wondering really what this is all about, the tax I've read is in accordance with the Qu'ran but what's with all the rest? I don't have my notes anymore (had to turn those in with my report) so I know there's more I meant to ask about. I really feel my paper was extremely biased against Muslims with the sources I had.

Siloh

09 Apr 2012, 04:05

Dumuzi

09 Apr 2012, 08:26

Hi Dumuzi

Hey Siloh! :)

Thank you for taking the time to read my previous replies, but trust me, I don't expect anyone to read all of that! I really don't mind answering questions, so don't hesitate or worry about asking anything you want.

As for your question, I should first point out that this thread is about the religion of Islam. I don't like to answer political questions in here. Though I can really see the amount of effort and time you put to make your post, so I will try to answer it to the best of my abilities. But if you want to discuss the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in more detail, perhaps it is better to do so in another thread.

So here we go!

First you have to understand this isn't a religious issue for us, at least not in the same sense it is for the other side. What I mean is that it has less to do with, which side is Muslim and which side isn't. And more about, which side is oppressed and which one is committing the oppression and persecution. Not all Palestinians are Muslim by the way.

I was against the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, I'm against the Syrian government and I'm even against the current Egyptian government and they all happen to be Muslim. I'm against the American invasion of Iraq and they are mostly Christian and I'm also against the Israeli government and they are Jewish. So I couldn't care less about the religion of the oppressor. I am against them because of their oppression, not their religion.

Secondly, I have to disagree with some of the points you have raised. It seems that people over there are misinformed about what is really going on over there in Israel. For example, the most important religious site over there for Muslims is not the Dome of the Holy Rock, it is Al Aqsa Mosque. It's not true that the IDF protects Muslims there. Muslims are discriminated against regularly there and often restrictions are placed on males under 50 years old. About 10 days ago Soldiers and settlers broke into Al Aqsa Mosque. (http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/israelpalestineconflict/missingheadlines/item/1575-soldiers-settlers-break-into-the-al-aqsa-mosque)

But all of that is a secondary issue in my opinion. It's the salt they put in a wound already there. It's not that Palestinians want to worship and the Israeli government is preventing them. It's way beyond that. Palestinians want to live and raise families but the Israeli government keeps destroying their homes and killing their children.

Just a quick example, that shows you this isn't about mosques, Palestinians often have a hard time finding water to drink because of Israel. According to a UN report, Israel is actively supporting the theft of Palestinian water. (http://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-actively-supports-theft-palestinian-water-says-new-un-report/11072)

Israel have also threatened to tear down solar panels and wind turbines in Palestinian villages. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,815476,00.html)

Now, Hamas, I understand, is a terrorist group.

I want you to think about this for a second. List the reasons you think Hamas is a terrorist group. Now think about it, do the same reasons apply to the Israeli government?

Since September 2000, 124 Israeli children have been killed. Something that I am totally against. But do you know how many Palestinian children were killed by Israel in the same time frame? 1463.

In the same time frame 9,226 Israelis have been injured. While 45,041 Palestinians have been injured. Source (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/)

ZERO Israeli homes have been destroyed since 1967, while at least 24,813 houses have been demolished in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza since 1967. Source (http://www.icahd.org/?page_id=76)

It seems to me the media over there is extremely biased against Palestine. And just to show you this isn't a matter of me being against Israel because of being Muslim, the whole world tried to issue sanctions against Israel because of the war crimes and crimes against humanity it committed. But every time we try to do that, the US veto's it. Actually, Israel has cut working relations with the UN Human Rights Council. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17510668)

I am willing to die for really only one vaguely religious cause, because it is a matter, to me, of both religious freedom and politics.

I don't want to make this reply any longer than it already is. But I humbly ask you to investigate this matter in more detail. I believe it is the duty of all of us to fight for the rights of the oppressed. I am against the killing of any innocent human being. On both sides. But it seems to me that the American government doesn't care as much when it is Palestinian children being killed. If you want to die for something, why not for the right of Palestinians to live like decent human beings, instead of supporting a government that is almost identical to the apartheid government of South Africa.

I could provide you with even more sources, but I'm sure you are bored by now. I'll just leave you with this video showing you how women and children suffer at check points by the hands of Israeli soldiers:

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CG2NPkIKRM&feature=player_embedded

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIBDUChaizQ&feature=player_embedded

anunitu

09 Apr 2012, 09:14

I think it is important to also understand that not everything that happens in the Middle East is about religion. We see the outward conflict only in terms of religious difference mostly from the media. But,there is always what goes on beneath the surface and this may have more to do with resources and power than any religious differences. Sometimes religion is used to cover the real reasons for killing and suffering of innocent people. In the clash for power,it seems it is always these innocent
people that are caught in the middle and suffer the most damage.

Dumuzi

09 Apr 2012, 15:07

I wasn't sure how much of the fact that the speech was given in Arabic was practical and how much was spiritual - I mean, if it was only done as a means to make sure everyone understood, or whether the language itself is considered sacred. Obviously it might be difficult for you to answer since you don't live in the place I'm referring to!

Your answer makes me wonder something else, too... Is it necessary to recite the prayer in Arabic?

The speech part has to be in a language everyone understands. Usually the Imam chooses a topic that is relevant to the community. I'd imagine the problems a Muslim faces in America are not the same as a Muslim living in Egypt, and so on.

As for the prayer itself, yes, it has to be in Arabic. Since we recite the Qur'an during these prayers so they are in Arabic. Personally, I find this great because it means I can go into a mosque anywhere in the world and we'd be all praying in the same way! :D

Problem is that the English word prayer can actually be referring to three different things in Islam. There's Salah like the 5 daily prayers. And then there's Du'a' which roughly means to call upon, like a supplication. This prayer is in any language that you want, it doesn't have to be spoken by the tongue. So while performing Salah (which has lots of Arabic parts) you can do Du'a', especially when we are bowing down or prostrating, where you can say or ask for whatever you want. You can and you're encouraged to do it anytime of the day. Hope this made sense!

Boy, I wish I'd known that! I took one step into the room where everyone was worshiping and suddenly realized I was the only female in the room. I turned right around and exited before anyone saw me...

Oh, no! Thank god no one saw you, or else we'd have to stone you! hehe just kidding! :D

Oh, and one more question. When we asked Thursday what time we should come Friday, everyone said service started at noon. So we showed up at 12PM and there was no one there. We made a call and asked where everyone was, and the reply was, "Oh, when they say 'noon' they mean 1!" We tried coming up with a satisfactory answer as to why that might be and couldn't figure it out!

Oh, the 5 daily prayers depend on the movement of the sun. So when we say the noon prayer it is the time of the day when the sun is at the highest point in the sky and a little after that. It's when the sun has crossed the celestial meridian (true noon), exactly halfway between sunrise and sunset.

So it changes everyday. Usually you can look up the times of the prayers of your city online.

Raphaeline

09 Apr 2012, 15:13

Very cool. Thanks for the responses!

Siloh

10 Apr 2012, 07:22

Hey Siloh! :)

Thank you for taking the time to read my previous replies, but trust me, I don't expect anyone to read all of that! I really don't mind answering questions, so don't hesitate or worry about asking anything you want.

As for your question, I should first point out that this thread is about the religion of Islam. I don't like to answer political questions in here. Though I can really see the amount of effort and time you put to make your post, so I will try to answer it to the best of my abilities. But if you want to discuss the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in more detail, perhaps it is better to do so in another thread.

So here we go!

First you have to understand this isn't a religious issue for us, at least not in the same sense it is for the other side. What I mean is that it has less to do with, which side is Muslim and which side isn't. And more about, which side is oppressed and which one is committing the oppression and persecution. Not all Palestinians are Muslim by the way.

I was against the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, I'm against the Syrian government and I'm even against the current Egyptian government and they all happen to be Muslim. I'm against the American invasion of Iraq and they are mostly Christian and I'm also against the Israeli government and they are Jewish. So I couldn't care less about the religion of the oppressor. I am against them because of their oppression, not their religion.

Secondly, I have to disagree with some of the points you have raised. It seems that people over there are misinformed about what is really going on over there in Israel. For example, the most important religious site over there for Muslims is not the Dome of the Holy Rock, it is Al Aqsa Mosque. It's not true that the IDF protects Muslims there. Muslims are discriminated against regularly there and often restrictions are placed on males under 50 years old. About 10 days ago Soldiers and settlers broke into Al Aqsa Mosque. (http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/israelpalestineconflict/missingheadlines/item/1575-soldiers-settlers-break-into-the-al-aqsa-mosque)

But all of that is a secondary issue in my opinion. It's the salt they put in a wound already there. It's not that Palestinians want to worship and the Israeli government is preventing them. It's way beyond that. Palestinians want to live and raise families but the Israeli government keeps destroying their homes and killing their children.

Just a quick example, that shows you this isn't about mosques, Palestinians often have a hard time finding water to drink because of Israel. According to a UN report, Israel is actively supporting the theft of Palestinian water. (http://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-actively-supports-theft-palestinian-water-says-new-un-report/11072)

Israel have also threatened to tear down solar panels and wind turbines in Palestinian villages. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,815476,00.html)

I want you to think about this for a second. List the reasons you think Hamas is a terrorist group. Now think about it, do the same reasons apply to the Israeli government?

Since September 2000, 124 Israeli children have been killed. Something that I am totally against. But do you know how many Palestinian children were killed by Israel in the same time frame? 1463.

In the same time frame 9,226 Israelis have been injured. While 45,041 Palestinians have been injured. Source (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/)

ZERO Israeli homes have been destroyed since 1967, while at least 24,813 houses have been demolished in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza since 1967. Source (http://www.icahd.org/?page_id=76)

It seems to me the media over there is extremely biased against Palestine. And just to show you this isn't a matter of me being against Israel because of being Muslim, the whole world tried to issue sanctions against Israel because of the war crimes and crimes against humanity it committed. But every time we try to do that, the US veto's it. Actually, Israel has cut working relations with the UN Human Rights Council. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17510668)

I don't want to make this reply any longer than it already is. But I humbly ask you to investigate this matter in more detail. I believe it is the duty of all of us to fight for the rights of the oppressed. I am against the killing of any innocent human being. On both sides. But it seems to me that the American government doesn't care as much when it is Palestinian children being killed. If you want to die for something, why not for the right of Palestinians to live like decent human beings, instead of supporting a government that is almost identical to the apartheid government of South Africa.

I could provide you with even more sources, but I'm sure you are bored by now. I'll just leave you with this video showing you how women and children suffer at check points by the hands of Israeli soldiers:

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CG2NPkIKRM&feature=player_embedded

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIBDUChaizQ&feature=player_embedded

So... Islam basically has nothing to do with the restrictions at the DHR?

I'd like to thank you for your reply before pursuing these sources. I disagree with some points, like that IDF soldiers do not stand outside of the Dome of the Holy Rock, because I saw them there.

In response to Hamas-as-terrorists... I think that any group who forces participation upon civilians in the form of hiding weapons bases in the most densely populated areas possible (where, yes, children are exposed to air strikes by the IDF) or bribes (the IDF started bombing properties specifically awarded to martyrs' families, probably contributing greatly to destruction of housing) is a terrorist group. Also, my friend was a photographer for the IDF and personally witnessed Hamas staging photos of "dead" people who would lay down for the picture and then get back up. However, terrorist Jews abounded, definitely, while the British had control of Israel, and the IDF itself certainly uses questionable methods to complete their agenda, an agenda I can't say I always support!

BUT, these responses are silly anyway, because I'm about peaceful resolution, as long as peaceful resolution does NOT mean giving up access to the Kotel or, really, access of any religious group to their holy sites.

Although, from my perspective, the media here is mostly anti-Israel. But that's my perspective.

I'm really rather relieved to hear that Islam is not a big part of the East Jerusalem feud. Really, I just want open access to the Old City and for my friends to not have to die young in the IDF, or coffee shops, or schools, which is a personal matter of grief, and I resent Israel for those losses as much or more than their killers.

Sorry for the misuse of the thread, but thanks for the discourse. I hope you realize, though I will not further elaborate this other than to say, I harbor zero ill will toward the Palestinians. And I am thinking of making an ask-a-Zionist thread, but I'm more about defending the citizens forced to battle than the Knesset, which is how most Israeli youth seem to feel today, as well. Stroll through Tel Aviv, and you'll see countless works of public art condemning the Israeli government for screwing over its children among other victims.

Moving on...

Since you've excused me from my duty to read the whole thread in search of possible answers to my question

Can you explain the infallibility of the Qur'an? How has it been determined to be infallible?

Now, I kind of think this is a stupid question, so if you think so, too, I'm not offended one bit.

I saw in a (much) earlier post of yours that the Qur'an came after the Torah and the Bible? Am I getting that right? And that these texts were the man-written texts that Islam sees as somewhere between valid divine inspiration and misguided mortal thought? Well, I've just been thinking about how wine-obsessed the Torah and Bible are, but alcohol is a Muslim no-no. Where did this custom come in? Is it just about purity of body and mind? Is the wine-obsession in the Torah and the Bible considered part of the mortal errors in those texts?

Also, you really rock for being so patient with me. Because, you know, I poked a potential beehive, and I actually thought you were going to deliberately ignore/block me for my insolence, which I would have also understood.

Stoph

10 Apr 2012, 13:08

Hey, just wanna share this on the topic of Isreal/Palestine. ive been wondering for years about the whole thing and this explained things very clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3bxj1uvDXU

Siloh

10 Apr 2012, 16:41

Hey, just wanna share this on the topic of Isreal/Palestine. ive been wondering for years about the whole thing and this explained things very clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3bxj1uvDXU

I haven't watched the video, but I sure know one couldn't summarize the issue within one adequately. I'm sort of sorry to have stirred this; maybe I WILL make a thread. >.<

Stoph

11 Apr 2012, 21:58

I haven't watched the video, but I sure know one couldn't summarize the issue within one adequately. I'm sort of sorry to have stirred this; maybe I WILL make a thread. >.<

It explains how things got to how they are now

Dumuzi

12 Apr 2012, 00:10

I really feel my paper was extremely biased against Muslims with the sources I had.

And you still turned it in? Next time I'm asked to do a paper on Paganism I'm gonna say Pagans like to eat babies and punch kittens for the dark lord :D Because an internet website said so!

Now I'm sure during the last 1400 years there were lots of unjust rulers of Muslim countries. Heck, if you look at Syria, Tunisia, Egypt and a couple more countries today, their people are trying to revolt against those kind of rulers. However, you should make sure when talking about Islam that you find sources in the Qur'an or sayings of Muhammad, for example, to support your claim about the religion.

Let's see:

Like they're not allowed to own horses, have to wear dark robes or colored badges, not allowed to mourn in the presence of a Muslim, not practice their religion in public, and a head tax to be paid.

Really now? Not allowed to own horses? What about donkeys? :D
You shouldn't have mentioned those things in your paper unless you are able to verify it by Muslim texts.

I will show you two texts regarding the issue of non Muslims in general, one by Muhammad, peace be upon him, himself, and another by Abu Bakr who ruled Muslims after him and was his best friend. I can go into more detail in another post if you want.

Muhammad said: “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”

Also, this letter was sent from Abu Bakr to the Christians of Najran:

"This is a covenant from the Caliph of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.). Abu Bakr (R.A.A.) to the Christian inhabitants of Najran. Full protection is accorded from Allah and His Prophet (S.A.W.) to the Christian inhabitants of Najran regarding their life, land, nationhood, property and wealth, even to those who are residing as their dependants in the vicinity villages of Najran and to those living in Najran and outside the country, their priests, monks, churches, and everything whether great and small. They will neither be subject to military service nor will be treated harshly, nor their priests will be forced to relinquish their asceticism. This covenant is the reaffirmation and ratification of the original document executed by the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) with the people of Najran. Whatever is contained in the above document, Allah and His Messenger (S.A.W.) stand witness to it. It is incumbent upon the Christian inhabitants of Najran to fulfill their responsibilities with sincerity and truth."

I recently had to do a paper on the persecution of the Jewish people and naturally I came across a lot of stories about Arab persecution of Jews.

A very interesting thing to learn is about is the Golden age of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age) and how Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_the_Iberian_Penins ula) were treated back there.

Dumuzi

12 Apr 2012, 02:55

Also, you really rock for being so patient with me. Because, you know, I poked a potential beehive, and I actually thought you were going to deliberately ignore/block me for my insolence, which I would have also understood.

:o

No, thank you for disagreeing with me while being able to talk to me in a nice and respectable way! I won't discuss this topic further, unless it should come up else where. (So you got to have the last word! :;):)

Can you explain the infallibility of the Qur'an? How has it been determined to be infallible?

Are you asking about its authenticity and how it was compiled? Or about its infallible nature, as in having no errors?

Now, I kind of think this is a stupid question, so if you think so, too, I'm not offended one bit.

I saw in a (much) earlier post of yours that the Qur'an came after the Torah and the Bible? Am I getting that right? And that these texts were the man-written texts that Islam sees as somewhere between valid divine inspiration and misguided mortal thought?

We believe in a long chain of prophets starting from Adam, and going through Abraham, Isaac, David, Moses, Jesus etc all the way till Muhammad, peace be upon all of them. We also believe some of them received revelations that they conveyed to their people. For example, Moses was given the Torah and Jesus was given the Injeel (Gospel).

You cannot be a Muslim unless you believe that these books are 100% from god. The issue is that the books we have today (Old and New Testament) have very little to do with what Moses and Jesus said. Even Christian scholars agree with this. You have the Gospel according to Matthew, Luke, Mark and John, but where's the Gospel according to Jesus? So it's not just a matter of a theological basis on which we reject these books, it's also an academic one.

Show me evidence of what Jesus and Moses really said, and I will follow it in a second, or else I'm not really a Muslim.

Well, I've just been thinking about how wine-obsessed the Torah and Bible are, but alcohol is a Muslim no-no. Where did this custom come in? Is it just about purity of body and mind? Is the wine-obsession in the Torah and the Bible considered part of the mortal errors in those texts?

There are still traces of negative views on alcohol in the Bible, for example Proverbs 20:1 states: "Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise."

But you are right that we generally hold the opinion that these views are later changes that were done to the original message.

Caelia

19 Jun 2012, 18:21

I've been meaning to ask this for a while, and forgive me if it's already been asked because I'm too lazy to look.

Back in college I had a Muslim roommate. Of course she didn't drink, but objected to even cooking wine used in food. She wouldn't even drink O'Doul's (a non-alcoholic beer) because it had alcohol. However, she had no qualms with using cough syrup with alcohol despite the fact in the US most cough syrups contain more alcohol than non-alcoholic beers (they have a 0.5 per cent content while cough syrups can have on average 1.5 per cent). When I pointed this out she dismissed it since "it was medicine". My question is are there exceptions for when alcohol may be imbibed, or did I just find someone trying to pull a CYA?

Dumuzi

19 Jun 2012, 23:19

High five for being too lazy! :p

She's right that medical use of alcohol is allowed, when there are absolutely no other options. Same goes for other things we are not allowed to consume like pork for example.

He has only forbidden you what dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that over which any other (name) than (that of) Allah has been invoked; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring, nor exceeding the limit, no sin shall be upon him; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [2:173]

Though how can a non-alcoholic beer contain alcohol? Either it has alcohol or it doesn't!

Caelia

19 Jun 2012, 23:31

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I really had no clue about that.

From what I understand they still semi-quasi ferment it and the yeast will produce alcohol as a by product. It's kinda no different than the way your body naturally produces a very small amount of alcohol.

thalassa

30 Jun 2012, 17:09

D: Can you point me to stuff (particularly if its kid friendly) on the story of Soloman and the ant?

*thank you*

Dumuzi

02 Jul 2012, 08:56

D: Can you point me to stuff (particularly if its kid friendly) on the story of Soloman and the ant?

*thank you*
I had a hard time finding children stories in English for some reason. I'm still looking for cartoons online. I found some but they're not about that particular story. I did find a few articles. Here's one of them: Prophet Sulaiman (http://www.mkjournal.org/features/life/prophet-sulaiman.shtml)

Here's the story from the Qur'an:

Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."
So [Solomon] smiled, amused at her speech, and said, "My Lord, enable me to be grateful for Your favor which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents and to do righteousness of which You approve. And admit me by Your mercy into [the ranks of] Your righteous servants."

I'm still gonna look for more, sorry I couldn't find anything better :(

thalassa

02 Jul 2012, 09:00

*hugs*

Thanks D!

The kids and I are talking about other religions and stories about "environmentally friendliness"...someone mentioned the ant story, and I was hoping to find a kids version...

Raphaeline

14 Sep 2012, 10:26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w&feature=player_embedded

One my step-father sent to me. As usual.

If you have time, I would appreciate comments on it.

What bothers me overall is the assumption that all of Islam is evil based on these three things. I don't know how to respond to it, though, because it isn't familiar territory to me - my way of life isn't similar to those based on Abrahamic religions. I don't understand how some people can think that all Muslims must be alike, as though everyone of every religion believes exactly the same thing. It's funny how the whole thing is set up - the third point makes it impossible for me to argue because the reply can always be, "How would you know? They're obviously lying to you!"

I feel like I do this to you too often. I'm sorry if I bug you with it too much - I just look to you to help me out when I get caught up in this hateful mess because I don't feel equipped to offer sufficient answers.

anunitu

15 Sep 2012, 07:34

D. I am aware that Islam has roots with Abraham,but have never read or understood the exact connection between the Abrahamic religions heritage with each other.

Any light on the subject would be very welcome.

- - - Updated - - -

I did find this site with a comparison(using a chart) that though brief does give some insight.

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/comparison_charts/islam_judaism_christianity.htm

Dumuzi

17 Sep 2012, 03:17

Guys, I'm not ignoring your questions, I'm just really busy. Gonna reply right away when I'm not exhausted!

Here's a cookie:

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~rkhosla/cookie.jpg

anunitu

17 Sep 2012, 07:37

Understood D. Kinda chaotic there I would imagine.

Raphaeline

17 Sep 2012, 09:31

No rush!

/10char

Maria de Luna

21 Sep 2012, 06:19

Thanks for the cookie though... om nom nom:cthulhu:

Dumuzi

26 Sep 2012, 14:03

I finally have some free time! (sorry it took me so long to reply)

I feel like I do this to you too often. I'm sorry if I bug you with it too much - I just look to you to help me out when I get caught up in this hateful mess because I don't feel equipped to offer sufficient answers.

Oh, I love it when you come to me with these questions! So keep doing it. :)

This video is an oldy, someone on YouTube made a response to it, so if you have the time go watch it. Here it is:

http://youtu.be/Iz1GeyWuC18

As for what I might say about this video, I'd begin by pointing out that the author of this video hasn't mentioned one single verse from the Qur'an to support his claims. So why should we believe him?

Another thing you can mention to your step-father is that the whole violent verses abrogation thing is false for two very clear reasons. First, you have lots of 'peaceful' verses that were revealed way later. Such as:

"So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah , and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then it is your duty only to convey the message. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants."[3:20]

"The duty of Our Messenger is only to convey the Message. Allah knows what you disclose and what you conceal."[5:99]

"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah, witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do."[5:8]

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."[2:256]

Second point, while the Qur'an does indeed contain verses about fighting and commandants to fight others, the video fails to mention that these exact same parts of the Qur'an talk about whom and why to fight. That is, fighting is only allowed in certain situations. So even these 'violent' verses aren't really contradicting, or in need of abrogation, because they don't contradict anything else previously mentioned. And here are examples from the parts of the Qur'an that talk about fighting:

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." [2:190]

"And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. " [2:193]

"Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers." [9:13]

"Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory."

"[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might." [22:39-40]

Notice in the last verse I quoted it mentions places of worship of Jews and Christians such as churches and synagogues BEFORE it mentions mosques. So according to those [I]violent verses that talk about fighting, a Muslim is supposed to fight to protect places of worship of non Muslims!

Even outside of the Qur'an you'll find many examples of protecting non Muslims, as opposed to violently fight them for their religion as the author of the video claims without providing any proof for it from the Qur'an.

Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim citizen, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I will complain against the offender on the Day of Resurrection.” (Abu Dawud)

I have a ton more evidence to support my claim but I don't wanna spam my own thread! Hope that clears things up for you a bit. Keep the questions coming, I have the time to answer them. :)

Raphaeline

27 Sep 2012, 11:27

Thank you very much! Very helpful :)

anunitu

27 Sep 2012, 12:44

That was very interesting D,thinking that God(s dess) have a little better lock on this thing we have called life. If only we mere mortals could understand what we read better than we seem to be doing.

Pallas

14 Dec 2012, 20:03

In Christianity and Judaism they have been moving forward quite a bit and bringing the religion more up with times; i.e accepting gays, being more accepting towards divorce... I have many Muslims friends and my mother's side has a lot of Muslims and I can say many of them are doing that with Islam as well. I see many saying now that hijab aren't even required in Islam, some even say it never really said that in the Qu'ran. I even see gay Muslims.

So my question would be: As a Muslim, how do you feel about the younger generation of Muslims being more accepting towards these once taboos and even giving up the hijab? Do you feel the Middle East and all Islam-practicing countries will be open to this sort of change? (Not asking from a political perspective, just simply culturally)

Dumuzi

15 Dec 2012, 15:13

So my question would be: As a Muslim, how do you feel about the younger generation of Muslims being more accepting towards these once taboos and even giving up the hijab? Do you feel the Middle East and all Islam-practicing countries will be open to this sort of change? (Not asking from a political perspective, just simply culturally)

Hi Pallas!

Your question is very interesting but a bit hard to answer. It totally depends on what you mean by accepting on one hand, and it also depends on time and place. I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing the hijab, for example. Though my mother doesn't wear it but over here people are OK with it. But like I said, it depends on the place, especially when it comes to women.

The biggest Muslim countries in the world (in terms of a Muslim majority) like Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh all had female leaders, presidents and prime ministers. As opposed to Saudi Arabia that won't even allow women to drive, let alone lead their whole country.

I would add that I personally consider myself a fundamentalist, in terms of following the fundamentals of my religion. I think Muslims would do much better if they learned about going back to the root of their religion as opposed to their culture. In the past there was a time when Jewish people would move to Muslim countries because they had to flee Europe and their treatment of Jews. Sadly, today in some places it's the other way round. The first universities of our world were built by Muslim women. Today, in some places women have a hard time getting an education.

So like I said, it's a complex issue. Hope that made sense to you.

Pallas

17 Dec 2012, 13:25

Hi Pallas!

Your question is very interesting but a bit hard to answer. It totally depends on what you mean by accepting on one hand, and it also depends on time and place. I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing the hijab, for example. Though my mother doesn't wear it but over here people are OK with it. But like I said, it depends on the place, especially when it comes to women.

The biggest Muslim countries in the world (in terms of a Muslim majority) like Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh all had female leaders, presidents and prime ministers. As opposed to Saudi Arabia that won't even allow women to drive, let alone lead their whole country.

I would add that I personally consider myself a fundamentalist, in terms of following the fundamentals of my religion. I think Muslims would do much better if they learned about going back to the root of their religion as opposed to their culture. In the past there was a time when Jewish people would move to Muslim countries because they had to flee Europe and their treatment of Jews. Sadly, today in some places it's the other way round. The first universities of our world were built by Muslim women. Today, in some places women have a hard time getting an education.

So like I said, it's a complex issue. Hope that made sense to you.

That does make sense! That has always been my understanding, that it varies from country to country. Though they all have Islam, that does not mean they all will execute it the same way.

Heka

09 Jun 2013, 05:36

Hi Dumuzi,

First I want to say how excited I am that this forum has a Muslim thread, definitely influenced my decision to sign up!

Second, my own Islamic background (not that I've ever been a Muslim). I study (and now also teach) Indonesian. As you know Indonesia is a hugely Muslim country so I've come to look into Islam a bit more. I have many Muslim friends (nearly all from Aceh, which I assume you know has autonomy from the Indonesian government and practises Sharia), who are very Muslim and who have taught me a lot. I also practise Ramadhan. A few years back my teacher at uni encouraged us to fast between lessons. I managed 4 days that year, and have fasted 16 straight for the last two (hit my period and it falls in a heap!). I think it's a fantastic practise, and pretty much think the five pillars rock.

Which brings me to thirdly. I always defend Islam against ignorance, but there are two arguments I would like to ask you about.
1. Taqiyyah. Apparently Muslims are encouraged to lie to being people to their side? Or at least that was the way it was portrayed. Could you please clear this up for me?
2. I've heard people say that the 'peaceful' Quran quotes are all from early in the book, and that the 'hateful' ones are later on, with inconsistencies inevitable though this. Mohammad admitted that there would be inconsistencies and so followers must follow the later teachings. This argument has been used by people to say that Islam is hateful, because any peaceful bits are nullified by the later bits. Thoughts?

Thank you!

Raphaeline

09 Jun 2013, 06:06

Consciousness

09 Jun 2013, 06:45

Which brings me to thirdly. I always defend Islam against ignorance, but there are two arguments I would like to ask you about.
1. Taqiyyah. Apparently Muslims are encouraged to lie to being people to their side? Or at least that was the way it was portrayed. Could you please clear this up for me?
2. I've heard people say that the 'peaceful' Quran quotes are all from early in the book, and that the 'hateful' ones are later on, with inconsistencies inevitable though this. Mohammad admitted that there would be inconsistencies and so followers must follow the later teachings. This argument has been used by people to say that Islam is hateful, because any peaceful bits are nullified by the later bits. Thoughts?

I used to be muslim for about 7 years or so. Maybe I can be of some help.

Taqiyyah is exagerated usually by non muslims and sometimes Sunnis slandering Shia (accusing them of using taqiyyah to conceal their faith). This was more done when muslims were in danger from different pagan tribes in Arabia. For example its not permissible to say that you believe in other Gods, but if you were threatened you could pretend to not be muslim as long as in your heart you still had imaan (faith).

2. What they are referring to are Meccan verses. These were the revelation before hijrah (migration to medina). During this time Muslims were to not wage war against the pagans. This is where you get a lot of the peaceful verses you mentioned. They were to turn the other cheek in other words. It was not until the Medina period where war was bestowed on the Ummah (muslim community).

This subject is a major issue of debate amongst Sunnis. The reason why some have suggested that later is when abrogation of previous versus occur is because the famous ahadith (collection of alleged sayings of Muhammad). In these text you will find follow up on more war type teachings. Some ahadith can be troubling for some. This is where the Sunni debate comes in. Not all obviously interpret the verses and ahadith the same way. The trouble I think sunnis have is they regard Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim (both are collection of ahadith) as being authentic without question. They regard them as have strong isnad (chain of narrations) back to the Prophet. So either some have to explain the ahadith away while others may embrace it with some type of jihadi tendency.

Here is an example of a troubling hadith that is narrated from Abu Dawud and classed as Sahih or authentic by scholars of hadith:

Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”
(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 3655)

These verses are troubling some for those who do not buy into the Jihadi applications of the Qur'an and sunnah.

My view of this is that ahadith are flawed. This will not be accepted by the majority of muslims, because without ahadith you cannot learn how to put your hands or certain movements during prayer. Also some verses of the Qur'an will make no sense if you do not know the back story from ahadith. But in my opinion the Umayyad governments are the ones who infiltrated political teachings in ahadith.

Here is just one example that I base my claims: From Bukhari

Narrated Ibn 'Umar (Radi-Allahu 'anhu): We used to compare the people as to who was better during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam). We used to regard Abu Bakr as the best, then 'Umar, and then 'Uthman.
(Bukhari Vol. 5 : No. 7)

Its interesting that the ahadith were written much later during the Umayad reign. So no doubt to me they used ahadith to influence the populace. Here in this hadith we have a hadith in praise (stating a comparison of who is better). It begins with Abu bakr, Umar, and Uthman. It is not so surprising that the leaders after the death of the Prophet were Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman. After that it was the famous cousin and son in law of the Prophet known as Ali ibn abu Talib. He is not mentioned as Bukhari shows that there was some issues shortly after the death of the Prophet (I am not using Shia ahadith here).

The point is to me its quite fishy that this ahadith was supposedly said by the Prophet and it so happens that the political environment set the stage for these 3 men. Now I am not saying Abu bakr, Umar, and Uthman are evil or whatever. I am just suggesting that I think the Umayyad had a role in ahadith. So I think it is the Umayyad that used and infiltrated more violent ahadith such as the first one I posted where a man killed a woman who insulted the Prophet and the Prophet Muhammad praised him for it. I think these are possible slanders against the Prophet.

I enjoy more of the Sufi interpretation of Islam such as Ahmad Hulusi and others who speak of true Wahdat ul wujud (Oneness with Allah). They do not use any of the violent ahadith to justify gross atrocities like fundamentalist.