Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hellenismos and Witchcraft

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Hellenismos and Witchcraft

    I won't say anything about my views just yet, but I've met a lot of recons who believe this.

    #2
    Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

    If it is, then so is the use of any tool.
    "The doer alone learneth." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

      I'm not a recon...but...not really. I think that likely depends on one's precise belief regarding the nature of deity, our relationship with the gods, and the manner in which magic functions. I can see how someone might believe that, I just don't agree with it myself.
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
      sigpic

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

        Like Vigisdotter said, magic is a tool. Humans love tools, we've made and used them since we had opposable thumbs, and probably before. It's part of our nature.
        The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

          Magic in general? no

          Specific methodologies and approaches to it? Shrug, there are certain forms of craft that I'm uncomfortable at the thought of meddling with because the philosophy behind them strikes me as approaching hubris. Granted I'm not even Hellenic let alone a Hellenic recon so as applied to Hellenic religion, take my opinion with a grain of salt.
          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


          Comment


            #6
            Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

            To a degree I think there is a sense of hubris with it. Grant I have more Hellenic influences as far as gods / goddesses go so I tend to see many things against that backdrop. But part of it also defined against what or whom one is calling upon to perform said magics. If I call upon the gods / goddesses via curse tablets or such then I am not working magic persay but asking the gods / goddesses to intervene on my behalf and make offerings, libations, etc to them as payment or thanks. If I call upon certain daemons and such it turns into a different concept in-regards to how one is using magic. Consider Hecate sending a daemon to inspire or punish is magic but not personal magic I suppose. If one calls upon their ancestors then it is yet a different type of magic and perhaps more acceptable as appeasing ones ancestors prevents negative magics by others who may try to force them to do things or purify those who didn't get proper rites and such before or after death.

            I tend not to do magic as a normal aspect of my pathwalk. Not to say I may not but when I do it is seldom for personal gain beyond what I need to survive. Many times it is more a sense of purifying my family ancestors, protections and such or of course the inverse of those specifics should such a situation occur.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

              Some things people try to do with magic may be hubris but it is not hubris itself. Magic is how we touch our inner divinity and the divinity outside us. I see it as a gift from the Holy Ones. To me the "hubris" depends on what you're trying to do. Using magic to help someone heal is not hubris. However trying to use it to become emperor of the world would be.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

                Okay here's my view. I really agree a lot with what MaskedOne and monsno_leedra have already said, but I'd like to expand.

                Magic in and of itself is not hubris in my opinion. However, certain aspects are. Using one's own energy and knowledge to try to bring about change through esoteric means is not hubris. It becomes hubris when someone is trying to compel a deity or spirit to work for them. At that point the practitioner has forgotten what it means to be mortal.

                The intent of the spell, so long as it adheres to the natural laws, has not sway over rather or not it's hubris. A spell that's meant to help me gain fame or power is just ambitious, but it doesn't spit in the face of nature. A spell trying to make myself or something else immortal, compel a deity or spirit, raise the dead etc are all against nature. Not only do spells like this not work but they also show a certain distress in the practitioner. This distress is its own punishment. (Yes, this is the point where philosophy and psychology meet religion)

                I think someone can avoid hubris by making proper offerings, approaching the Gods/spirits as a mortal and obviously, reflecting on rather or not the spell is even necessary/natural.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

                  Magic, no. Jerks who use magic just to be special snowflakes who are bettererer than everyone else, yes. They give magic a bad name and pervert something that should be used carefully, wisely and honorably.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

                    Magick itself nor the use of it is not inherently hubris. I do agree that certain workings can be acts of hubris, and certain people just tend towards hubris no matter what they do, but it's not inherently so anymore than using a drill is hubris. Several others have said that magick is a tool like any other, and I agree with that. Tools can be used for help or woe, for humility or hubris, and everything in between... you can kill someone with a screwdriver or you can build a shelter for your family. Magick is the same.

                    Vigdisdotter said in another thread that hubris is in the eye of the beholder. I agree with that... cultural and societal context will dictate what we as an individual person consider hubris or not, which may well differ from the next person. A classical example of this would be Theistic Satanists versus Wiccans... the attitude toward deity is quite different, and the attitude toward the individual's role within society is quite different. What a Wiccan may feel is hubris would simply be honoring oneself and the Divine within to a Theistic Satanist.

                    What is considered hubris is largely dependent on our attitudes towards things like deity, spirits, the people around us and people at large. I also think that hubris plays into ethics and morality, not because it's potentially harmful, just because it is an attitudinal baseline that intertwines with things like morality and our personal ethical systems. The exact defining boundaries are necessarily going to be different depending on the person.

                    Edited to correct spelling error

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

                      I don't know if I can completely agree that hubris is dependent on who's watching because hubris has an exact religious or at least philosophical definition. Hubris is simplified as pride, but it is more accurately seen as forgetting what it means to be mortal and your place because of it. If you look at the myths for examples you get heroes who refuse the help of the Gods (Ajax) or those who act vainly after humiliating an opponent (Odysseus). As a result of their temporary loss of reality both heroes created for themselves rather painful situations.

                      I would compare hubris to karma. Your actions create the world around you, for better or for worse. There was a legal case in Athens where Demosthenes, a famous orator and politician, was punched in a theater by another freeman. The man was accused of the crime of hubris and promptly taken to court. Because of the man's actions, he was put in a difficult situation. Rape was another crime considered to be hubris. These example also shows the legal connotations of hubris, which can be connected back to magic. There were certain laws, like restrictions of necromancy and curses, that were justified by labeling the practice hubris.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

                        I think where hubris becomes subjective is the difference between what was seen under Greek concepts and what is the more modern notion of it. I dislike wiki as a source but the definition is fairly standard so it works as a ref in this instance I think.

                        More archaic Greek usage
                        In ancient Greek, hubris referred to actions that shamed and humiliated the victim for the pleasure or gratification of the abuser.[1] The term had a strong sexual connotation, and the shame reflected on the perpetrator as well.[2]

                        Violations of the law against hubris included what might today be termed assault and battery; sexual crimes ranging from rape of women or children to consensual but improper activity, in particular anal sex with a free man or with an unconsenting and/or under-aged boy;[3][4][5] or the theft of public or sacred property. Two well-known cases are found in the speeches of Demosthenes, a prominent statesman and orator in ancient Greece. These two examples occurred when first Midias punched Demosthenes in the face in the theatre (Against Midias), and second when (in Against Conon) a defendant allegedly assaulted a man and crowed over the victim. Yet another example of hubris appears inAeschinesAgainst Timarchus, where the defendant, Timarchus, is accused of breaking the law of hubris by submitting himself to prostitution and anal intercourse. Aeschines brought this suit against Timarchus to bar him from the rights of political office and his case succeeded.[6]
                        In Greek literature, hubris usually refers to infractions by mortals against other mortals. Therefore, it is now generally agreed that the Greeks did not generally think of hubris as a religious matter, still less that it was normally punished by the gods.
                        More modern usage
                        In its modern use, hubris denotes overconfident pride and arrogance; it is often associated with a lack of humility, though not always with the lack of knowledge. Those who are accused of hubris often come from higher social backgrounds than the accusers; such as politicians or wealthy celebrities, who are accused of having marginal experience with the realities of the topics they attempt to address. An accusation of hubris often implies that suffering or punishment will follow, similar to the occasional pairing of hubris and nemesis in Greek society. The proverb "pride goeth (goes) before a fall" (from the biblical Book of Proverbs, 16:18) is thought to sum up the modern use of hubris. It is also referred to as "pride that blinds", as it often causes one accused of hubris to act in foolish ways that belie common sense. In other words, the modern definition may be thought of as, "that pride that goes just before the fall". More recently, in his two-volume biography of Adolf Hitler, historian Ian Kershaw uses both 'hubris' and 'nemesis' as titles. The first volume, Hubris,[8] describes Hitler's early life and rise to power. The second, Nemesis,[9] gives details of Hitler's role in the Second World War, and concludes with his fall and suicide in 1945.
                        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                          sigpic

                          my new page here,let me know what you think.


                          nothing but the shadow of what was

                          witchvox
                          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

                            Originally posted by Claude View Post
                            I don't know if I can completely agree that hubris is dependent on who's watching because hubris has an exact religious or at least philosophical definition. Hubris is simplified as pride, but it is more accurately seen as forgetting what it means to be mortal and your place because of it. If you look at the myths for examples you get heroes who refuse the help of the Gods (Ajax) or those who act vainly after humiliating an opponent (Odysseus). As a result of their temporary loss of reality both heroes created for themselves rather painful situations.
                            I guess this is the problem with me replying in a thread put into the 'Greek and Roman Traditions' board lol.

                            Technically you are right if we're looking from purely a Hellenic point of view, because within that context the term has a very clear definition. Within that context, there is no subjectivity, because it is what it is and that's it.

                            As MonSno said though, if you move outside of a Hellenic context then it becomes more subjective. At a very basic level, if the attitude toward deity is different, then the definition of hubris automatically moves. If the demarcation of 'overly prideful' moves, then the definition of hubris automatically moves with it. Of course, I subscribe to the modern usage of the term, rather than the archaic Greek usage, so that also effects my opinion.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

                              Originally posted by Claude View Post
                              I won't say anything about my views just yet, but I've met a lot of recons who believe this.
                              It varies, much like anything else. The Ancient Greeks themselves had varied views about it. On one hand, high society regarded magic "spells" and charms with contempt, seeing it as a very folkish and backwards, the stuff of country folk and poor people. But on the other hand, the same high society elements had an odd fascination with it, which is evident in certain piece of Latin and Greek literature.
                              In the same way, most "New Age" things were originally a variety of folk beliefs and practices, but they became fetishized by upper middle class Westerners because of a perceived exoticness or folksy wisdom. It's an attitude that's remarkably consistent in Western culture; the Greeks did it, the Romans did it, the Renaissance Italians did it, the British Empire did it, et al...

                              Regardless of how the Greeks felt about it, or how they say they felt about it, it's clear from archaeological evidence that the use of magic was widespread in Hellenic and Hellenistic society. The extent to which it is influenced by Egyptian and Near Eastern magic is a matter of continuing debate.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X