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    Edda Discussion - H

    Also known as The Sayings of H
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Let a man never stir on his road a step
    without his weapons of war;
    for unsure is the knowing when the need shall arise
    of a spear on the way without.
    -

    #2
    Re: Edda Discussion - H

    Title: Havamal Discussion
    Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 06, 2008, 07:03:09 PM


    Alright folks, I realize I said we'd kick start this awhile back, but I forgot about it. So, I've taken the time to hunt down some links (or, more accurately, steal some links ThorsSon hunted down!) so we can all have access to a multitude of translations. So, here they are.
    [there was a link here to our old resource thread. This is a link to the new one:
    http://www.paganforum.com/index.php?topic=91.0 ]

    Scroll down to the first two post by TS (post #'s 4 & 5), and he's got a slew of translations just waiting for you to click on!

    So, I thought I'd start us off a little early. Generally, how this goes is I'll post what verses it is were discussing on Monday, then we will discuss them at our leisure throughout the week, until the next Monday. However, since this has been a long time coming, I'm putting up the first five verses early, that way we'll have more time to "get the word out", as it were, that we're finally doing this. The first five verses will be up until the 8/18/08, giving us an extra 5 days to get the discussions rolling!

    (The following is from the Bellows translation, as I find his to be the best. When I post whatever chapters we're discussing, I'll always post the Bellows version, but feel free to discuss from any version you feel most comfortable with.)

    1. Within the gates | ere a man shall go,
    (Full warily let him watch,)
    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows | where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

    2. Hail to the giver! | a guest has come;
    Where shall the stranger sit?
    Swift shall he be who, | with swords shall try
    The proof of his might to make.

    3. Fire he needs | who with frozen knees
    Has come from the cold without;
    Food and clothes | must the farer have,
    The man from the mountains come.

    4. Water and towels | and welcoming speech
    Should he find who comes, to the feast;
    If renown he would get, | and again be greeted,
    Wisely and well must he act.

    5. Wits must he have | who wanders wide,
    But all is easy at home;
    At the witless man | the wise shall wink
    When among such men he sits.


    Discuss away!
    [hr]
    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
    Post by: Thjoth on August 08, 2008, 06:45:32 PM


    I don't think anybody will blame you for stealing some of Thorsson's links
    Thanks for making this thread, by the way. I was kind of wondering what happened to the idea.

    I think that can all be boiled down to "Stay alert, keep your eyes open, always be hospitable to guests, and don't make a fool of yourself."
    [hr]
    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
    Post by: daibanjo on August 09, 2008, 01:26:48 AM


    One of the nine Noble Virtues is Hospitality. These verses seem to encourage that virtue. Yet they also encourage watchfulness as Thjoth points out. It brings to mind one of the Nine Charges

    "To succour the friendless but to put no faith in the pledged word of a stranger people."

    These verses do not just speak of being hospitable. They also warn to be wary when receiving hospitality. I think, with reflection, we could go quite deeply with these verses.
    [hr]
    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
    Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 09, 2008, 04:01:10 PM


    To me, the first represents common sense. Do not enter into an unknown place without being on your guard. To me, its as simple as that. Be wary in places you're not familiar with.

    The second poses one of my few problems with Bellows' translation. The first two lines of the stanza are accurate, but of the following two I have doubts. The original ON (Old Norse) has fire mentioned in the final stanza. I believe the gist of the final two lines to be "In haste is he who comes to the hall/To find a place to sit by the fire". I denote the line break with a backslash. To me, this stanza represents the beginnings of a host's duties with a guest. It says to make room for the guest who must surely be cold (which is quite understandable in the days of our ancestors).

    The third is more about hospitality and the responsibilities of a host. Hospitality was a major part of life to our ancestors, and this stanza gives us examples of what one should do if one is a host.

    The fourth details what one should do if they are a guest. Being a guest denotes its own set of responsibilities. One must act well when they are receiving the hospitality of another.

    The fifth is again more common sense, but perhaps within lies a deeper meaning. It says that one who wanders must be wise. While this still holds true today, it was particularly important when our ancestors walked the earth. Travelers faced more danger than many of us can imagine. One who traveled without their wits about them often did not live to repeat the mistake. It also says that the witless shall be acknowledged as such from one wise man to another. Note, however, that he is not mocked. Nothing verbal is said. The wise men merely note his witlessness and nothing more is said. I think that this is wise indeed. To mock the witless may lead to the breaking of frith and the making of enemies, something the wise man is not wont to do.
    [hr]
    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
    Post by: Thjoth on May 08, 2009, 01:30:55 AM


    It's a shame we never really got this rolling very well. Would anyone be interested in it now? I'd love to continue a kind of discussion, and I'll post the next 5 verses from the Bray translation below:

    6
    A man shall not boast of his keenness of mind,
    But keep it close in his breast;
    To the silent and wise does ill come seldom
    When he goes as guest to a house;
    (For a faster friend one never finds
    Than wisdom tried and true.)
    7
    The knowing guest who goes to the feast,
    In silent attention sits;
    With his ears he hears, with his eyes he watches,
    Thus wary are wise men all.
    8
    Happy the one who wins for himself
    Favor and praises fair;
    Less safe by far is the wisdom found
    That is hid in another's heart.
    9
    Happy the man who has while he lives
    Wisdom and praise as well,
    For evil counsel a man full often
    Has from another's heart.
    10
    A better burden may no man bear
    For wanderings wide than wisdom;
    It is better than wealth on unknown ways,
    And in grief a refuge it gives.


    I think a quote (from who, I can't remember) would suffice here: It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

    That's basically what i think the first two verses are saying. The third and fourth tell us that it is safest to trust your own instinct and your own advice, rather than taking it from another person.

    The fifth is more traveling advice. It seems to be saying that of all the weapons and other things you could bring on the road with you, wisdom is the most powerful.

    Hopefully we can get some good discussion on this!
    [hr]
    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
    Post by: Crimson Horizons on May 08, 2009, 06:28:50 PM


    As I have sadly found to be the case, everyone who says they are interested in a Havamal discusion genereally find "better" things to do when one actually arises. That said, I would be more than happy to help raise this thread from the grave!

    6- To me, this says many things. It says not to boast of one's mental prowess, but notice it says nothing of one's physical might. I think this ties into the old thoughts of knowledge, that the best knowledge is earned and that knowledge is power. To let on that you know so much can be your undoing (just ask Vaf
    "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Let a man never stir on his road a step
    without his weapons of war;
    for unsure is the knowing when the need shall arise
    of a spear on the way without.
    -

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Edda Discussion - H

      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
      Post by: Crimson Horizons on May 08, 2009, 06:28:50 PM
      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
      Post by: Thjoth on May 08, 2009, 08:20:54 PM


      I think in this case, Odin is speaking of wisdom as both a great burden and a great asset at the same time. He says "A BETTER burden may no man bear, for wanderings wide than wisdom". The ultimate survival tool, so to speak. Those who have it will benefit immensely, even though it IS a burden, while those that do not have it at all...well, from the other verses, we know that pleasant things are not likely to befall them during their journeys. At best they'll heartily embarrass themselves.

      Also, I find it significant that the very first verses of Havamal are about traveling. Odin is the Wandering God, so I think that it really shows how much he values the traveler and the journey that this is the first subject to be broached.

      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
      Post by: Crimson Horizons on May 08, 2009, 10:32:00 PM

      Agreed on both fronts. I also like how it not only gives advice on how to act as a traveler, but also on how to receive one, as stanzas two through four indicate. I think a large part of it ties back into the act of hospitality.

      "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

      "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Edda Discussion - H

        Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
        Post by: Thjoth on May 11, 2009, 12:13:28 PM


        A new week and a new set of verses. I think we can try to stick to posting a new set of verses every Monday, that should work. I'll try not to let this thread slip into Hel's domain again, anyway

        Also, come on, shy people! If you're not a Heathen, feel free to post anyway, as the person least involved with the subject usually comes on the scene with the best viewpoint, so I'd ESPECIALLY like to hear from you!

        11
        A better burden may no man bear
        For wanderings wide than wisdom;
        Worse food for the journey he brings not afield
        Than an over-drinking of ale.

        12
        Less good there lies than most believe
        In ale for mortal men;
        For the more he drinks the less does man
        Of his mind the mastery hold.

        13
        Over beer the bird of forgetfulness broods,
        And steals the minds of men;
        With the heron's feathers fettered I lay
        And in Gunnloth's house was held.

        14
        Drunk I was, I was dead-drunk,
        When with Fjalar wise I was;
        It's the best of drinking if back one brings
        His wisdom with him home.

        15
        The son of a king shall be silent and wise,
        And bold in battle as well;
        Bravely and gladly a man shall go,
        Till the day of his death is come.


        11 - Considering the last set of verses telling you to stay alert, this one is fairly obvious. If you're drunk, "Alert" is the LAST thing that you are. If you're drunk in an unfamiliar place, "Wise" is right under "Alert" as the VERY last thing you are. Depending on the setting, you may wind up dead. Dead. Kaput. Lights out. Pushing daisies. So just don't do it.

        12 - Losing your hold on your own mind is the polar opposite to wisdom, and drinking in excess makes you do just that.

        13 - Odin speaks from experience here. Drinking when you're on a journey won't end well.

        14 - If you want to do some drinking, the drinking will be that much better if you do it after you return home with your wisdom - and your ass (Pardon moi francais) - intact and unharmed.

        15 - Wee bit of a subject jump here. I probably should start dividing this when the subject obviously changes rather than just 5 verses at a time, but that might wind up with a 25 verse stretch so maybe not. Anyway. Odin is speaking on the conduct of a prince, but this is applicable to everyone for the most part. Listen more than you talk, strive to be wise. While most of us aren't going to be in a battle, I like to say that life itself is a battle (you're fighting death, fighting the other people that applied to that job you want, fighting the salesman when you haggle prices, etc), so be bold in life. Whatever fate you may meet, meet it bravely and gladly, not cowering and complaining about how hard your lot in life is. If you don't like how your life is going, you change it. Changing it may not be easy, it may be hard and unpleasant, but you can ALWAYS change it. Do you want to meet your ancestors and they be embarrassed to be related to you, or do you want them to clap you on the shoulder and welcome their descendant to the afterlife? I've kind of taken this one verse pretty far, because now we're starting to get into Wyrd territory, but I think I got my point across
        [hr]
        Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
        Post by: Maythe on May 11, 2009, 01:22:28
        PM
        [i]
        Quote from: crimsonhorizons on May 08, 2009, 06:28:50 PM
        As I have sadly found to be the case, everyone who says they are interested in a Havamal discusion genereally find "better" things to do when one actually arises. That said, I would be more than happy to help raise this thread from the grave!
        I'm interested in reading the discussion but as a novice I feel I don't have much to say but I am here! Honest!

        Having said that - these last verses (or the first four anyway), for me, emphasise the importance of moderation, although perhaps 14 shows one should even take moderation in moderation!
        [hr]
        Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
        Post by: Crimson Horizons on May 11, 2009, 06:57:39 PM
        "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

        "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Edda Discussion - H

          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
          Post by: Thjoth on May 18, 2009, 12:45:36 AM


          Here's the next set of verses, just posting them right now, I'll comment on them after I get some sleep. Also, Crimson, I have to say that your take on stanza 14 was one I hadn't thought of. Pretty interesting.

          On a related note, I'd like to add that I'm making my way through the Eddas right now. I can't remember which is which and my books conveniently neglect to differentiate them, but I finished Gylfaginning and am on Skaldskaparmal now, so I'm getting a bit stronger when it comes to the lore

          16
          The sluggard believes he shall live forever,
          If the fight he faces not;
          But age shall not grant him the gift of peace,
          Though spears may spare his life.

          17
          The fool is agape when he comes to the feast,
          He stammers or else is still;
          But soon if he gets a drink is it seen
          What the mind of the man is like.

          18
          He alone is aware who has wandered wide,
          And far abroad has fared,
          How great a mind is guided by him
          That wealth of wisdom has.

          19
          Shun not the mead, but drink in measure;
          Speak to the point or be still;
          For rudeness none shall rightly blame you
          If soon your bed you seek.

          20
          The greedy man, if his mind be vague,
          Will eat till sick he is;
          The vulgar man, when among the wise,
          To scorn by his belly is brought.

          [hr]

          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
          Post by: Maythe on May 18, 2009, 12:44:08 PM


          16 is a lesson I really need to take to heart - I'm quite timid and especially in real life I avoid conflict like the plague.
          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
          [hr]

          Title: Re: Havamal Discussio
          Post by: Crimson Horizons on May 18, 2009, 06:10:22 PM


          16- This, to me, says that while a coward may live longer than a brave man, he will not enjoy it.

          17- I have seen the truth in this one for myself. Get a fool drunk, and they'll suddenly know everything...

          18- This one ties in with 9 & 10, about trusting one's own wisdom. This is more about realizing what wisdom has done for you.

          19- I think this particular Stanza goes out of it's way to say that Mead is not all together bad. Also, it gives another guidline for hospitality; do not mock one who goes to bed early from drinking mead. A wise man knows his limits.

          20- I think all of us have had foolish things we've done pointed out to us. A mistake or a flaw is less likely to get us killed now than it would have in the time of our ancestors, but I still think the advice is good. Call your friends out on certain foolish flaws you think they have, and hope that they'll be good enough friends to think on the advice and to do the same for you!
          [hr]

          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
          Post by: Thjoth on May 20, 2009, 12:12:50 AM


          It's the Prose edda I've been reading, the Poetic will be next I'd recommend reading Skaldskaparmal by the way, it helps you get some of the rather infuriatingly vague kennings that the poets of that period loved oh-so-much, even though it's been Christianized to kingdom come.

          16 - Everyone dies eventually. If conflict misses you, age certainly will not; I think this ties back in with the previous verse about being bold. Your time is finite, so use it to the best advantage you can. Also, I think this quote from Pliny the Elder also fits in with this theme: "True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read; and in so living as to make the world happier for our living in it."

          17 - I think Crimson pretty much nailed this one. Once an idiot gets a few drinks in him, he definitely confirms what may have only been suspicion up to that point.

          18 - This stanza, I think, seems to imply that to gain wisdom in this world, you need to get out and experience it. Once you have experienced the world, you'll realize how much wisdom you have gained, and how much better as a person it's made you.

          19 - Again, I pretty much agree with Crimson. This stanza makes sure to note that it's not FORBIDDING drinking, just suggesting against drinking in excess. Ridiculing a guest (or anyone) that thinks they've reached their limit is just ridiculously stupid. When's the last time something good happened to you or a friend of yours when they've passed their limit? I'm not a betting man, but I'd wager that the answer to that would be NEVER.

          20 - Basically, this one is saying that constructive criticism is a good thing. The greedy man in this stanza would cause harm to himself if he wasn't called out on his flaw and made perfectly aware of it. I think it is a wise person's responsibility to try to help other people (be they counted among the "wise" or not) improve upon themselves, because someone improving their flaws can only help the community around them, and them personally as well. You can actually benefit from someone else improving themselves, even if it's only through the improvement they bring to the community.

          EDIT: Impqueen, by the way. I avoid conflict myself; however, you'll find that sometimes in life, conflict shows up and slaps you right in the face in such a way that you CAN'T avoid it. Havamal certainly doesn't tell you to seek out conflict, but the principles found here really help you to be self-assured and anchored enough that you won't be swept away in the currents when the tsunami of conflict inevitably comes crashing down around you. Stand fast and don't allow the world to shift you from your path, I think is the general theme of why there IS a Havamal. A lot of the wisdom here is a tool for that purpose, as well as its more practical and utilitarian meaning.
          [hr]

          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
          Post by: Maythe on May 20, 2009, 03:35:21 PM


          Where are you guys getting the 'advise friends when they're being idiots' thing from 20? I just see something along the lines of 'a foolish man eats too much'... ???

          Thjoth - at the moment conflict makes me go to pieces. Even web arguments upset me a fair bit. I need to learn to deal with the inevitable conflicts in life, while retaining the ability to avoid those which can be avoided.

          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
          Post by: Crimson Horizons on May 20, 2009, 06:08:02 PM


          Quote from: Impqueen on May 20, 2009, 03:35:21 PM
          Where are you guys getting the 'advise friends when they're being idiots' thing from 20? I just see something along the lines of 'a foolish man eats too much'... ???
          Indeed, that is a big gist of it, but it's the last three half-lines of the stanza that I draw my other conclusion from, although it's going to be a lengthy process to explain (and I could be completely wrong to begin with!).

          Wisdom and hospitality, as the Havamal points out, are defining characteristics of our ancestors. Keeping that in mind, insulting a random stranger's girth is not a wise thing to do (thus a wise man the stanza speaks of wouldn't do it). Also, the stanza talks about being amoung the wise. Generally, unless we're talking about a large group setting, which would include mainly thing attendance and meadhalls, one is not going to be randomly amoung the wise. Basically, my meaning is if that one is amoung the wise in the above situations, it would be unwise to call someone out on their obesity.

          However, if one is familiar with the wise men (on friendly terms), the wise men can much more safely scorn the fat man on his girth. Thus, the wise man can see that his friend is overly large, but also know that he is in a safe position to say so.

          The only other time one might be amoung the wise is when one travels. However, one who travels is unlikely to hugely overweight, and even if he were, it would be both unwise and unhospitible to go about insulting one's guests.

          So, I take all of that and draw my conclusion posted earlier. ;D
          [hr]

          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
          Post by: Thjoth on May 20, 2009, 11:12:31 PM

          I draw my conclusion by the part where it says "if his mind be vague". In other words, the negative stuff in the rest of the stanza is a condition to the greedy man's mind being vague, so I interpret that as telling me I should make sure the greedy man's mind is NOT vague about his present condition That being said, it would be rather idiotic (and would break frith into a million pieces) if I went around telling people of their fixable flaws if they had no idea who I was. I'm rather more simplistic than Crimson I guess, but that's how I came to that conclusion

          Also Imp, I guess a lot of that has to do with your personality. Everyone tells me I have an excellent poker face. In fact, some guys at work were making fun of it one day. One guy said, "This is Thjoth when he's happy!" *completely neutral facial expression, arms folded* "This is Thjoth when he's sad!" *same expression* "This is Thjoth when he's pissed off!" *slight downturn of eyebrows*. I found it pretty funny myself

          What I usually do is make myself into a neutral observer of a situation if possible, gather what information is present, and work from there if I have to wade into it. I'll skirt around it when I can. When I do have to get involved, it usually ends fairly quickly because apparently (according to my friends) I'm rather scary and people don't like to have to deal with me in that manner. I really don't think I am, but it would explain why situations defuse pretty easily for me.

          EDIT: Also, I'm surprised Thorsson hasn't weighed in here yet. I had figured he would.
          [hr]

          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
          Post by: Crimson Horizons on May 21, 2009, 06:25:47 PM


          Sadly, TS doesn't visit as often as he used to. However, I suspect lack of time rather than lack of interest to be the culprit. As for some other people, well, remember what I said about them having "better" things to do when a Havamal discussion arises...
          [hr]

          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
          Post by: Maythe on May 22, 2009, 04:57:01 PM

          Quote from: Thjoth on May 20, 2009, 11:12:31 PM
          Also Imp, I guess a lot of that has to do with your personality. Everyone tells me I have an excellent poker face. In fact, some guys at work were making fun of it one day. One guy said, "This is Thjoth when he's happy!" *completely neutral facial expression, arms folded* "This is Thjoth when he's sad!" *same expression* "This is Thjoth when he's pissed off!" *slight downturn of eyebrows*. I found it pretty funny myself
          What I usually do is make myself into a neutral observer of a situation if possible, gather what information is present, and work from there if I have to wade into it. I'll skirt around it when I can. When I do have to get involved, it usually ends fairly quickly because apparently (according to my friends) I'm rather scary and people don't like to have to deal with me in that manner. I really don't think I am, but it would explain why situations defuse pretty easily for me.

          This sounds rather like my partner MrK. He's very good at observing without getting involved. Too good in fact as it recently emerged his colleagues underestimate how much he *does* do...

          Thanks for your explanations both of you.
          "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

          "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Edda Discussion - H

            Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
            Post by: Thjoth on May 25, 2009, 12:59:50 AM


            Another Monday, another 5 stanzas. Now we've got 3 people actively participating in the discussion, let's try to make it 4! Perhaps Rick is kicking around here somewhere? Elswyth? Those are the only two active Heathens on this forum I can think of off the top of my head that aren't already here. And remember, non-heathen people, I WANT YOUR COMMENTARY AS WELL! Don't make me chase you down!

            *cough*

            Without further ado:


            21
            The herds know well when home they shall fare,
            And then from the grass they go;
            But the foolish man his belly's measure
            Shall never know aright.

            22
            A paltry man and poor of mind
            At all things ever mocks;
            For never he knows, what he ought to know,
            That he is not free from faults.

            23
            The witless man is awake all night,
            Thinking of many things;
            Care-worn he is when the morning comes,
            And his woe is just as it was.

            24
            The foolish man for friends all those
            Who laugh at him will hold;
            When among the wise he marks it not
            Though hatred of him they speak.

            25
            The foolish man for friends all those
            Who laugh at him will hold;
            But the truth when he comes to the council he learns,
            That few in his favor will speak.




            21 - First is an example of an animal that knows its limit when it comes to food and drink. The foolish man is not counted among them.

            22 - There are people that like to make fun of anything and everything. I think it really depends on the attitude of the person poking fun; there are tricksters and jokers, who do have a serious side and mostly make fun of things to lift people's spirits, and then there are people that actually MOCK everything. This verse is basically telling the latter group that they need to remember that they aren't perfect, and they have plenty of qualities that could be mocked themselves.

            23 - Ahhh, yes, the worrier. This stanza is saying that worrying about things that you can't change is just going to make it rougher on you. Where you could have gotten a decent night's sleep and tackled the problem with your full energy the next day, you have instead stayed up all night worrying about it and made it so you really CAN'T do anything about it. Constantly worrying about things is purely self-defeating, and Odin even goes so far as to call people that do that "witless" in this stanza. If you have something you worry about, RELAX. You don't do anything beneficial by wearing yourself out thinking about it; no matter how much you think about it, the problem will remain. So keep your strength up, and when an opportunity arises, DO something about it.

            24 - This one pretty much says that a foolish man thinks that people are laughing WITH him, when in fact they're laughing AT him; he thinks of the people laughing at him as friendly, when in fact they hate him, he's just too stupid to see it. I think this points out the fact that being able to read your surroundings and the people around you goes a LONG way to your not looking like an idiot. Are the people around you laughing because of your charm and humor, or in pure contempt of you? I think that the ability to read your surroundings ALSO goes a long way towards not getting yourself killed when you're abroad as well. You'll know when it's time to leave a place while you're still intact if people are laughing at you and you haven't done anything funny lately.

            25 - This is basically reiterating the last one. People are laughing at a foolish man, so he thinks he has friends; however, when the rubber meets the road and he's before the council (or a group of potential business investors, or a potential group of employers, or anything else), no one speaks in his favor and he suddenly finds himself standing alone. You DON'T want to be that person. It's not conducive to a happy (or long) life.
            [hr]

            Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
            Post by: Crimson Horizons on May 25, 2009, 06:07:04 PM


            21- I think that this refers to drinking as well as eating. A foolish man doesn't know when to leave the meadhall and go home.

            22- Thjoth pretty much sums up my thoughts on this one. Those that ridicule everything deserve ridicule themselves.

            23- Thjoth got this one for me too. I've sadly done this many times before, and I've gotta say, I vastly prefer sleep to restless nights.

            24- A fool doesn't know how to choose his friends, or even how to recognize them, as this stanza shows that a fool doesn't know when he is being insulted by those he thinks close.

            25- This stanza is more of the above, except that it does show one way to know a true friend; if they are willing to speak and stand up for you.
            "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

            "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Edda Discussion - H

              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
              Post by: Thjoth on June 01, 2009, 12:31:52 AM


              Well, I guess we really nailed last week's passage, so let's continue shall we?


              26
              An ignorant man thinks that all he knows,
              When he sits by himself in a corner;
              But never what answer to make he knows,
              When others with questions come.

              27
              A witless man, when he meets with men,
              Had best in silence abide;
              For no one shall find that nothing he knows,
              If his mouth is not open too much.
              (But a man knows not, if nothing he knows,
              When his mouth has been open too much.)

              28
              Wise shall he seem who well can question,
              And also answer well;
              Nothing is concealed that men may say
              Among the sons of men.

              29
              Often he speaks who never is still
              With words that win no faith;
              The babbling tongue, if a bridle it find not,
              Often for itself sings ill.

              30
              In mockery no one a man shall hold,
              Although he fare to the feast;
              Wise seems one often, if nothing he is asked,
              And safely he sits dry-skinned.



              I'll start the ball rolling I suppose.

              26 - People that are ignorant may have a high opinion of themselves, and may in fact seem like they know something as long as they sit loftily away from everyone else. However, sometimes you should test so-called "wise" people; you'll find that when they're questioned, they actually know nothing. I'm sure most of us have run into the type before, with all the posturing and the self-assigned sense of greatness, who turn out to be absolute fools.

              27 - This might be the origin for the quote I mentioned earlier, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt", which has been attributed to a huge number of people. This stanza is saying that if you find yourself meeting with other people and you don't know anything about them or what they're talking about, DON'T TRY TO PRETEND YOU DO. You'll just look stupid. Unfortunately, there are some people that are so ignorant that they don't even realize that their mouth has been open too much. If nothing else, try to know when your mouth has been open too much and it's time to cut your losses and just can it.

              28 - You will seem wise if you can carry yourself well, not only when answering other people's questions, but when questioning others yourself. I think that's the emphasis here, when you yourself are asking questions. If you're asking people things that they by rights shouldn't know (e.g. asking a plumber from Virginia how the driving conditions are in Nigeria), or asking questions poorly so that those that know can't answer, then you look like a complete nitwit. This also makes note that anything you may say to anyone at any given time, will get around eventually. Don't speak ill of people, because they'll hear about it. Don't say something idiotic, because even if the people around you don't know that what you told them is BS, it'll eventually get to someone that does. Speak the truth, speak it well, and don't speak of things that will cause unnecessary conflict.

              29 - Loose lips sink ships. If your tongue wags too much, you'll bring harm upon yourself one way or another. You may be caught in a lie; you may just be caught spouting BS to seem like you know something; what you say may just be honestly wrong. You may wind up saying something hurtful and it get back to the person you ridiculed, or you may say something directly to someone's face and cause some strife with them. The more words that come out of your mouth, the higher the probability you're going to piss SOMEONE off.

              30 - I actually think that the Bray translation does a little better with this one:

              Let no man be held as a laughing-stock,
              though he come as guest for a meal:
              wise enough seem many while they sit dry-skinned
              and are not put to proof.


              Basically, don't make fun of people. Don't mock people. Odds are, yeah, you'll seem pretty intelligent for a while, but as soon as people begin to counter your jibes and seriously test you, something will come out that makes YOU the laughing-stock, and that won't be funny at all.

              I think that's all I've got for this week's passage. Discuss away!
              [hr]

              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
              Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 01, 2009, 05:22:44 PM


              I'll post my own spin on these stanzas when I get more time; Thjoth pretty much nailed it from where I sit.
              [hr]

              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
              Post by: Maythe on June 02, 2009, 02:39:05 PM

              *waves* Sorry for my absence - I've been away on holiday and have just got back from sunny Wales

              We seemed to have moved from a group of 'moderation' verses to 'how not to make an arse of yourself' verses. They definitely seem to come in clumps. I like the way Havamal advice is pretty straightforward, even blunt in places.

              No. 22 makes me think of Lokasenna. In that poem Loki becomes the archetypal 'paltry man'.
              [hr]

              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
              Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 02, 2009, 06:42:58 PM
              Quote from: Impqueen on June 02, 2009, 02:39:05 PM
              No. 22 makes me think of Lokasenna. In that poem Loki becomes the archetypal 'paltry man'.
              Glad to have you back! I absolutely agree with your comparison here.
              [hr]

              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
              Post by: Thjoth on June 05, 2009, 11:02:18 PM


              Woo! Page 2!

              CH, I definitely agree with you on verse 30 from the perspective that Kama (and Wyrd) are at work at all times in our lives. If we ridicule the dinner guest, not only do we open the door for people to test us to see if we're really all that wise, but we also open the door for the Gods themselves to test us. Just look at Odin's exploits, one of which you named in your post, to see what happens when that sort of arrogance takes hold of us. Odin especially seems to like to lay down the law when it comes to that.

              So, if you ridicule the dinner guest, and an old man in a grey cloak and wide-brimmed hat shows up shortly thereafter, you're SCREWED
              [hr]

              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
              Post by: immortal_dragon on June 06, 2009, 02:37:32 AM


              Sorry to jump in late on this, but I'd like to join in on the discussion. Unfortunately, I don't currently know anything that I could add about this set of stanzas that hasn't already been said so I think I shall wait for the next set.
              [hr]

              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
              Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 06, 2009, 08:45:46 AM

              Quote from: Thjoth on June 05, 2009, 11:02:18 PM
              So, if you ridicule the dinner guest, and an old man in a grey cloak and wide-brimmed hat shows up shortly thereafter, you're SCREWED
              Ha!

              Quote from: immortal_dragon on June 06, 2009, 02:37:32 AM
              Sorry to jump in late on this, but I'd like to join in on the discussion. Unfortunately, I don't currently know anything that I could add about this set of stanzas that hasn't already been said so I think I shall wait for the next set.
              Hey, the more the merrier!

              "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

              "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Edda Discussion - H

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Thjoth on June 08, 2009, 12:35:27 AM


                It's Monday again! You guys know what that means!

                31
                Wise a guest holds it to take to his heels,
                When mock of another he makes;
                But little he knows who laughs at the feast,
                Though he mocks in the midst of his foes.

                32
                Friendly of mind are many men,
                Till feasting they mock at their friends;
                To mankind a bane must it ever be
                When guests together strive.

                33
                Often should one make an early meal,
                Nor fasting come to the feast;
                Else he sits and chews as if he would choke,
                And little is able to ask.

                34
                Crooked and far is the road to a foe,
                Though his house on the highway be;
                But wide and straight is the way to a friend,
                Though far away he fare.

                35
                Forth shall one go, nor stay as a guest
                In a single spot forever;
                Love becomes loathing if long one sits
                By the hearth in another's home.

                Before I analyze, I want to post these stanzas from the Bray translation as well, as some of these are a little hard to follow without cross-referencing translations, at least for me:

                31.
                A guest thinks him witty who mocks at a guest
                and runs from his wrath away;
                but none can be sure who jests at a meal
                that he makes not fun among foes.

                32.
                Oft, though their hearts lean towards one another,
                friends are divided at table;
                ever the source of strife 'twill be,
                that guest will anger guest.

                33.
                A man should take always his meals betimes
                unless he visit a friend,
                or he sits and mopes, and half famished seems,
                and can ask or answer nought.

                34.
                Long is the round to a false friend leading,
                e'en if he dwell on the way:
                but though far off fared, to a faithful friend
                straight are the roads and short.

                35.
                A guest must depart again on his way,
                nor stay in the same place ever;
                if he bide too long on another's bench
                the loved one soon becomes loathed.



                31 - When you're entertaining a number of guests, one may try to impress another by making fun of people. You'll notice that the joker-guest usually runs for it before he receives a beatdown. If you're entertaining more than a few guests, odds are at least two of them will find out they don't like each other, and usually because one of them is being stupid in an attempt to make friends. This stanza points out that sometimes, the mocking person is too foolish to realize what kinds of dangerous waters he (or she, women fight like rabid wolverines at parties, I swear) has paddled into.

                32 - Again, this one is stating that you should watch out for third-party strife when you entertain a number of guests. It's also stating that many friendships are damaged or ended at social events, which is an absolute truth. Even though these statements about social events were written so incredibly long ago, human nature hasn't changed with the years.

                33 - Don't show up at a party/cookout/potluck/dinner/general-social-gathering-at-which-food-is-consumed when you haven't eaten all day (or some other long period of time, Gods forbid), unless it's a really good friend of yours. If you go on an empty stomach, you'll look pretty pitiful as you fall on the offered food like a starved dog, and you won't be able to socialize because you'll be too busy stuffing your face. Eat a little something beforehand. Not a lot, mind, just enough that you're not trying to fill your stomach at the gathering.

                34 - Assuming you follow Odin's advice about not mocking people, or just generally not being a jackass and causing unnecessary strife, a path to a friend (or at least, a path to positive acquaintances) is a lot easier than the path to an enemy. Friends usually come easier than enemies, although it's worth noting that some people will just dislike you for no reason, and that can't really be helped. REASONABLE people will become your friends by your trying to live by the words spoken in Havamal.

                35 - This one is so true it hurts. Your best friend could be the most awesome person in the world. They fall on hard times, or need to get away for a while, or WHATEVER the reason may be, and they come to live with you for an extended period. At first, it might be pretty cool. However, there will come a time where you get tired of having them around, to the point where it even damages your friendship. This can also go for members of your extended family; anyone who's ever had an older family member come live with them rather than go to a nursing home can attest to that (this is experience speaking). YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE THAT PERSON. AT ALL. It tends to wreck the relationships you have, turn your friends to enemies for encroaching on their hospitality and taking advantage for a long while, and it generally just ISN'T GOOD. SO DON'T DO IT.

                In fact, with that one, I have no idea how married couples do it. In fact, married couples CAN'T do it in a lot of cases, hence the divorce rate we see. People getting married need to make SURE they can live with each other before they commit, in my opinion, or eventually you start hating each other.

                That's all I've got. Discuss away!
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: immortal_dragon on June 08, 2009, 01:46:34 AM


                31- The best thing you can do if you're going to mock someone is to get up and leave, because you don't know whether the person you are mocking is friend or foe. If it turns out to be the latter and you're in a hall full of foes, you'll be screwed.

                32- I see this as there is always going to be differences of opinion between two folks no matter how close they are on certain topics of interest. But just because there is a difference of opinion doesn't mean you have to take it to the point of losing a friend to get the point across.

                33- Like Thjoth said don't show up with an empty stomach. A feast/get together what have you is meant for conversing and enjoying time with friends not watching someone eat endlessly.

                34- I understand the concept I just can't find the right words to put it into. :hmm:

                35- Overstaying ones welcome isn't ever a good idea. Don't abuse someones hospitality by lingering too long.
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Maythe on June 08, 2009, 12:41:43 PM


                The two different translations of 33 seem quite different in meaning. I'll admit the Bray one doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Thjoth on June 09, 2009, 12:05:52 AM


                Maythe, what I usually do is find the translation that makes the most sense on its own (in the case of 33, that would be Bellows, our normal translation) and then look at it with another translation, which for me is usually Bray. If it makes any sense, the "true" translation is usually the sum of several differing translations, so basically you compare a second one to the one that's easiest to read, and you'll be able to infer some of the double-meanings that the original language had in it that didn't quite make it through in each standalone translation. If your alternate translation happens to be very hard to understand (like 33 is in Bray) then you can just go on one of them
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Maythe on June 09, 2009, 11:24:56 AM


                I think I'll fish out my copy of Larrington and see what she has to say. But not tonight!
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 09, 2009, 05:01:13 PM


                Sorry I'm late on this one, everyone; I spent all of yesterday looking up ancestory information.

                31- I think this stanza states that those who leave when one guest mocks another are wise. Those that stay and laugh are generally unaware that they are in a truly hostile situation.

                32- I've seen this a time or two. Someone says something in jest that is taken seriously and then things get out of hand. It is best to get to know your fellow guests in ways other than making fun of them.

                33- When one goes to a meal as a guest, it is best to eat a small something beforehand. If not, you run the risk of making yourself out as a pig, eating more than your share. When I go to my Kindred's feasts, I always eat something light before the feast. That way, I can accurately gauge what I can eat in fairness, and my time isn't spent stuffing my face!

                34- This is one of my favourite stanzas in the Havamal. Visiting someone you dislike is going to make a long journey, regardless of distance. Visiting someone you really care about makes for a short journey indeed. I have found this to be true on many occasions.

                35- One should never impose upon another's hospitality. Know how long you can stay without wearing out your welcome.
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Maythe on June 10, 2009, 01:48:04 PM


                Larrington translates 33 as
                "An early meal a man should usually eat,
                unless he is going on a visit;
                he sits and guzzles, acts as if he's starving,
                and doesn't make any conversation."


                I think it's the word 'unless' in the Bray and Larrington translations which confuses things. I understand the verse in the same way you guys do, but that 'unless' seems to contradict that. It makes me want to learn Old Norse and read it straight!
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 10, 2009, 04:53:43 PM

                Quote from: Impqueen on June 10, 2009, 01:48:04 PM
                It makes me want to learn Old Norse and read it straight!
                I've touched on this myself elsewhere. Sadly, nothing seems readily available to learn Icelandic unless one moves to Iceland. If I can ever find something that might work on the cheap, I'll pass it along to you.
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: volcaniclastic on June 10, 2009, 06:54:22 PM
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 10, 2009, 08:06:57 PM
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: volcaniclastic on June 10, 2009, 08:31:04 PM

                Quote from: crimsonhorizons on June 10, 2009, 08:06:57 PM
                Thank you, it seems interesting, I might have to go and google it, now.
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 10, 2009, 08:58:32 PM
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Maythe on June 11, 2009, 03:58:12 PM

                Quote from: crimsonhorizons on June 10, 2009, 04:53:43 PM
                I've touched on this myself elsewhere. Sadly, nothing seems readily available to learn Icelandic unless one moves to Iceland. If I can ever find something that might work on the cheap, I'll pass it along to you.
                Seeing as my book on learning ON has a section of Havamal I was assuming it was originally ON. ???
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 11, 2009, 06:03:48 PM

                Icelandic is Old Norse, or more accurately, Western Old Norse. Icelandic children can read documents over 800 years old written in Old Norse because the language has changed that little in Iceland.
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Munin-Hugin on June 12, 2009, 07:04:26 AM


                If I remember correctly, not only has it really not changed, but it is one of the most difficult languages to learn. It was once explained to me that new phrases or creations do not get new words, per se, but a combination of old words strung together that becomes that thing's name. For example, rather than coming up with a word for "computer", what is used could be something like "lightning memory box". It's kind of how the entire world used to refer to refrigerators as "ice boxes" until someone coined the other name. I find it fascinating.
                [hr]

                Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                Post by: Maythe on June 13, 2009, 03:19:53 AM

                Quote from: crimsonhorizons on June 11, 2009, 06:03:48 PM
                Icelandic is Old Norse, or more accurately, Western Old Norse. Icelandic children can read documents over 800 years old written in Old Norse because the language has changed that little in Iceland.
                Ah in that case you might be interested in 'Introduction to old Norse' by EV Gordon which I've had for a while. As you can tell though I haven't yet got round to using it properly! It's available off amazon.
                "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Edda Discussion - H

                  Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                  Post by: Thjoth on June 15, 2009, 02:10:23 AM


                  I do believe that gong I just heard means it's Monday again!

                  36
                  Better a house, though a hut it be,
                  A man is master at home;
                  A pair of goats and a patched-up roof
                  Are better far than begging.

                  37
                  Better a house, though a hut it be,
                  A man is master at home;
                  His heart is bleeding who needs must beg
                  When food he fain would have.

                  38
                  Away from his arms in the open field
                  A man should fare not a foot;
                  For never he knows when the need for a spear
                  Shall arise on the distant road.

                  39
                  If wealth a man has won for himself,
                  Let him never suffer in need;
                  Often he saves for a foe what he plans for a friend,
                  For much goes worse than we wish.

                  40
                  None so free with gifts or food have I found
                  That gladly he took not a gift,
                  Nor one who so widely scattered his wealth
                  That of recompense hatred he had.



                  36 - Even if you possess little in the way of material goods, if you have a home you can call your own, you are in extremely good shape. That piece of land that's yours, along with the house that stands on it, is your domain. No matter how meager it is, as long as you're not a beggar you're infinitely better off than someone that is in the situation of being a beggar.

                  37 - Pretty much reiterating 36, except with the addition of saying that having to beg makes you bleed your life's blood. I think these two verses really hammer home the idea that there is absolutely no honor in begging for your food, nor is there anything good about it at all. Begging to keep yourself alive should be a last resort, when there is absolutely nothing else you can possibly do; when you have NO food, NO shelter, and NOTHING ELSE to your name except for the clothes on your back. That's why both of these verses say that even if your house is only a tiny thing, it is so, so much better than begging.

                  38 - And so we come to one of my favorite stanzas in Havamal. I feel the need to reintroduce myself...hello, I'm Thjoth. I'm a very, very strong advocate of RKBA, as well as a strong advocate of Survivalism. From my perspective, you can take this stanza literally with one exception: replace "spear" with "the weapon you would feel most capable of killing a vicious wild animal and/or a vicious human with". Keep this weapon with you at all times, ESPECIALLY when traveling, and double-especially when you're in the wilderness. The place you're going has weapons bans? Receive some training in martial arts, and I mean YESTERDAY. They can ban all they want, but when your very body is a weapon, they can't really do much about that, can they?

                  This is an especially important stanza; you can ignore it a thousand times, on a thousand trips, and nothing bad will happen, but all it takes is once. One time your guard is down, one time you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, one time you're just unlucky as hell, and your life comes to an end as easily as smashing a grape with a steamroller. Your weapon functions as a tool; where some tools apply leverage to help you move something heavy, this tool provides the leverage that keeps you from being killed by some maniac in some faraway place while your family wonders what happened to you. Under no circumstances do you want that to happen. Earlier, Havamal said that the best drinking is after you've returned safely home; THAT is the outcome you want, and it very well may not happen if you don't have a means to defend yourself.

                  Can you tell I feel strongly on this subject?

                  39 - This one's a little hard to follow, but I *THINK* it's saying that if you can't give your friends gifts because of some circumstance where things went much worse than you planned, it's OK? Maybe? Most translations are the same or very similar, so my usual trick of looking at several translations isn't working here...

                  40 - No matter how rich someone is, they still appreciate gifts. No matter how vast their wealth is, they're not going to turn down any sort of repayment or freely given gift that you give them, and they'll most likely appreciate it just like anyone else. I'm pretty sure this is leading into the group of stanzas that tell you how to make and keep friends.
                  [hr]

                  Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                  Post by: immortal_dragon on June 15, 2009, 02:51:34 AM


                  36- Its better to have you own dwelling no matter the size and sometimes the shape than to be living a life of begging. I mean as long as I had a roof over my head I'd be happier than asking for scraps.

                  37- Again its better to have a place of your own than to beg for your next meal. Having to beg for food would be like dying each time you asked.

                  38- When out traveling or just away from home in general, don't leave your weapons out of reach. You never know when you'll run into trouble. This one remings me of when I was in basic when I went into the Army. We were doing a FTX and they told us to sleep with our guns in our sleeping bags and not just set it down of the ground where it could be taken without opposition.

                  39- When things go wrong what wealth you would use to help a friend ends up being used to defeat an enemy.

                  40- Give gifts, but accept them in turn. No one who freely gives to others will be rewarded with hatred.
                  [hr]

                  Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                  Post by: Tylluan Penry on June 15, 2009, 06:16:03 AM


                  I don't know how I've missed this thread, but I'm very glad to have found it now!

                  The sentiments of the verses seem to be ubiquitous... so vv.36 - 37 could be summed up by the old adage 'A pound (or dollar) of your own is worth ten of somebody's else's.' and v 38 is curiously like the Latin 'si vis pacem para bellum' (if you want peace, prepare for war.)

                  Which goes to show that what the verses are teaching us are eternal truths that hold good no matter where we are!
                  [hr]

                  Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                  Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 15, 2009, 07:21:25 PM


                  36- As has been pointed out, no matter the shape and size, having one's own property is much better than the alternative.

                  37- I think this says that it is extremely difficult to beg for food. I think we should all give food (and I do mean FOOD, not money) to those who ask for it, provided we can. Also, I don't think the term "bleeding heart" means what most Americans would associate it with today (i.e. empathy), but rather the toll begging takes on one's heart and pride.

                  38- Never, ever be without a way to defend yourself and those you hold dear. Doing so is not only foolish, but to be unable to defend what you care for is highly dishonourable.

                  39- I think the gist is never to turn down a gift just because you may have no need of it. The act of gifting was a major component of our ancestors' society. When you give someone a gift and they accept, they are indebted to you, but it is a debt that could never be paid off. To give and to accept a gift binds the giver and the receiver together. The only reason to decline a gift is if you do not want to be bound with the person offering the gift. To go about declining gifts simply because you don't need them will not only wound the offering party's pride, but might unnecessarily make an enemy of a friend.

                  40- Don't let material things get in the way of kith and kin. Basing your life on how much it's worth is a swift path to ruin.



                  *edit* Sorry guys, I've been going off of the Chisholm translation, who has stanzas 39 and 40 reversed from what Bellows presents.
                  [hr]

                  Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                  Post by: Maythe on June 17, 2009, 11:54:26 AM


                  38 is a difficult one for me. While I'm no pacifist I'm not comfortable with weaponry (partly I think a cultural difference between the US and UK but also probably due to my fear of confrontation). 38 makes me face the fact I can't defend myself physically or often even verbally and this is something I need to work on.

                  I'm finding the gifting aspect interesting - often our unspoken rules about politeness echo these ideas about gifting. Reject someone's gift and you reject a bond with them. No wonder they get offended!
                  [hr]

                  Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                  Post by: Eoghan on June 17, 2009, 01:01:28 PM

                  Quote from: Impqueen on June 17, 2009, 11:54:26 AM
                  38 is a difficult one for me. While I'm no pacifist I'm not comfortable with weaponry (partly I think a cultural difference between the US and UK but also probably due to my fear of confrontation). 38 makes me face the fact I can't defend myself physically or often even verbally and this is something I need to work on.
                  I'm finding the gifting aspect interesting - often our unspoken rules about politeness echo these ideas about gifting. Reject someone's gift and you reject a bond with them. No wonder they get offended!

                  I'm not sure that 38 is confined specifically to 'weapons'. Being a good fighter in hand to hand (Krav Maga FTW!!) is definitely a way to defend yourself and those you hold dear.
                  [hr]

                  Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                  Post by: Munin-Hugin on June 17, 2009, 01:12:37 PM


                  How about looking at it to be in less of a physical manner? The willingness to stand up for yourself, your beliefs, and your loved ones. I look at it as being brave and true to your course of action, and supporting those who are special to you.
                  [hr]

                  Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                  Post by: Thjoth on June 19, 2009, 03:48:22 PM


                  You can look at it that way, but there comes a time when you're standing up for yourself, your beliefs, and your loved ones that things have to get physical in some way. Maybe not a way that gets physically violent, but things will get confrontational at least. That's one reason it's a good idea to be able to neutralize the other person (or animal, or whatever) in some way. It doesn't have to be lethal, but the tools to defend yourself should be present, because you can't very well stand up for ANYTHING when you're in the hospital with a broken spine, or in the morgue.
                  "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                  "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Edda Discussion - H

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Thjoth on June 22, 2009, 12:56:32 AM


                    Sorry, I'm a bit later than usual, forgot what day it was

                    41
                    Friends shall gladden each other with arms and garments,
                    As each for himself can see;
                    Gift-givers' friendships are longest found,
                    If fair their fates may be.

                    42
                    To his friend a man a friend shall prove,
                    And gifts with gifts requite;
                    But men shall mocking with mockery answer,
                    And fraud with falsehood meet.

                    43
                    To his friend a man a friend shall prove,
                    To him and the friend of his friend;
                    But never a man shall friendship make
                    With one of his foeman's friends.

                    44
                    If a friend you have whom you fully will trust,
                    And good from him would get,
                    Your thoughts with his mingle, and gifts shall you make,
                    And fare to find him often.

                    45
                    If another you have whom you hardly will trust,
                    Yet good from him would get,
                    You shall speak him fair, but falsely think,
                    And fraud with falsehood requite.


                    41 - Giving gifts among friends helps the friendship last longer, fates willing. I've personally found this to be very true; my friends and I will routinely just give each other things that we think the others will like for no particular reason, and our friendships are extremely solid. It's just a coincidence that these gifts usually happen to be arms

                    42 - This is basically saying that you reap what you sow, to use the Christian version. If you seek friendship, odds are friendship is what you'll find; if you lie and cheat, expect to get cheated right back.

                    43 - A friend of a friend is a friend. A friend of the enemy is your enemy. If you make friends with the friends of your enemies, your enemies can use them to get at you; you become vulnerable. On top of that, any friendship you manage to strike with the friend of your enemy will most likely just be a false friendship anyway.

                    44 - If you have a trusted friend, share your thoughts with them as well as gifts. Talk together, and spend time with each other to keep that bond strong and alive.

                    45 - If you want something from someone you don't trust, naturally you're going to treat them nicely to try to get whatever it is you want. This goes back to stanza 42; while you may say nice words to them, your thoughts will be false and negative, and that falseness will be returned to you. This sort of builds on 42 and 43 together
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Maythe on June 22, 2009, 11:20:13 AM


                    I think the implication in 45 is that the person you don't trust has given you reason to do so and by lying to them you will only be repaying fraud with falsehood. 45 seems to approve of treating falsely with those who deserve it.
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Munin-Hugin on June 22, 2009, 11:30:37 AM


                    41 - I know it was traditional to give specially and skillfully crafted weapons as gifts, as well as fine clothing from faraway lands. It would be quite a show of your closeness and generosity to do so. I think it's not so much the gift itself, but the thought behind it that forms the bonds.
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 24, 2009, 06:22:43 PM


                    Sorry I'm late folks; I've had an eventful week.

                    41- Friends who gift each other tend to have longer relationships. I've got a friend who've I've been exchanging gifts with since I was 8, so I can attest to the truth of this one. As MH said, I don't think its so much the gift itself, but rather the act of giving.

                    42- I'm with Thjoth here, you get what you earn. Former friends can be the most vile of enemies; betrayal stings deep. Be good to your friends, and odds are they'll be good to you.

                    43- Never side with friend's enemy, even if your friend is in the wrong. It's really that simple. I'm reminded of the Mark Twain quote I have in my signature. ""The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right".--Mark Twain.

                    44- I cannot emphasize this strongly enough; DO NOT NEGLECT GOOD FRIENDS!!! Trusted friends are extremely difficult to come by, and you should cherish every one.

                    45- While I understand the basic premise of this one, I must disagree with what it teaches. Spreading falsehood is not the way to be honourable. Deal with the person in question fairly, and never forget the reason(s) you don't trust them, but don't be fraudulent with them. Spreading lies and mistrust never leads to anything good.
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Thjoth on June 25, 2009, 12:18:31 AM


                    I'm still not seeing where others are getting that message out of 45. What I see is that if you dislike someone or mistrust them, and you treat them well trying to get good out of them, then the falsehood YOU just committed will be returned.
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Maythe on June 25, 2009, 11:50:49 AM


                    This is how I understand the poem in modern english:
                    If there's someone you don't trust
                    But you want something from him,
                    speak nicely to him but think badly
                    and pay him with falsehood.


                    The poem says 'and fraud with falsehood requite', rather than what (I think) it would say if it meant what you think it means - 'and your fraud will be requited with falsehood'.
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 25, 2009, 05:05:36 PM


                    I'm with Maythe on this one. By the wording I read (and going of off Chisholm's translation), stanza 45 seems to indicate that lying to get what you want is the way to go. I simply must disagree.
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Munin-Hugin on June 25, 2009, 09:35:40 PM


                    I see it differently. No matter what you personally think of someone, nothing good will come out of badmouthing them, so always give them a measure of respect and kindness. In the future, those kind words may end up endearing that person towards you in a time of need.
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Thjoth on June 25, 2009, 11:37:59 PM


                    I actually think Munin-Hugin's interpretation makes a lot of sense, but lets see a few of the translations.

                    Here's the translations I have.

                    In Anderson, this stanza is actually 46:

                    But of him yet further
                    Whom thou little trustest,
                    And thou suspectest his affection,
                    Before him thou should'st laugh,
                    And contrary to thy thoughts speak;
                    Requital should the gift resemble
                    .

                    Bray:

                    But hast thou one whom thou trustest ill
                    yet from whom thou cravest good?
                    Thou shalt speak him fair, but falsely think,
                    and leasing pay for a lie.


                    Chisholm:

                    If you know another and trust him not
                    and you want to get good from him
                    speak fair to him while thinking falsely
                    and give him lies for lies.


                    None of these really make sense in the context of what Odin just got done saying. The only way it does even slightly make sense is the way Munin-Hugin has it laid out, and it's still a stretch.

                    I have a feeling there had to be something lost in the translation that can't quite make it to English. I know some Kennings can be practically untranslatable, maybe there's one there? Then again, Odin does tend to "omit" certain facts on a fairly regular basis, so it would fit his character...I can only imagine the friction between Odin and Tyr if he does that on a regular basis, and encourages others to do the same...
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Dustin86 on June 26, 2009, 01:07:53 AM


                    Im new to all this, so im just reading everyones posts. i AM here learning though. hopefully after this one is done you all can do the rest of the edda like this.
                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Munin-Hugin on June 26, 2009, 07:30:38 AM

                    Quote from: Thjoth on June 25, 2009, 11:37:59 PM
                    Then again, Odin does tend to "omit" certain facts on a fairly regular basis, so it would fit his character...I can only imagine the friction between Odin and Tyr if he does that on a regular basis, and encourages others to do the same...
                    Kind of interesting, coming from a god who's sometimes looked upon as one of communication. *Looks up . No offense meant, of course* Then again, it could be the Jotun in him coming out. We can but try to understand the ways of the gods.

                    Anderson comes the closest to the way in which I see that stanza, and I'll simplify it here.

                    Someone you don't trust
                    But still want their friendship
                    Act goodly towards him
                    Even though you think differently
                    And you will see a return for your kindness

                    [hr]

                    Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                    Post by: Maythe on June 26, 2009, 04:21:02 PM


                    This *is* Odin we're talking about here. He ain't all sweetness and light.

                    "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                    "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Edda Discussion - H

                      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                      Post by: Thjoth on June 29, 2009, 09:01:11 AM


                      I don't think sweetness and light are anywhere near Odin; if they were at any point, they are now impaled on Gungnir Heck, there's probably baby unicorn blood on that thing...

                      Also, sorry people, I forgot what day it was. Here's the next set:

                      46
                      So is it with him whom you hardly will trust,
                      And whose mind you mayst not know;
                      Laugh with him mayst you, but speak not your mind,
                      Like gifts to his shall you give.

                      47
                      Young was I once, and wandered alone,
                      And nothing of the road I knew;
                      Rich did I feel when a comrade I found,
                      For man is man's delight.

                      48
                      The lives of the brave and noble are best,
                      Sorrows they seldom feed;
                      But the coward fear of all things feels,
                      And not gladly the niggard gives.

                      49
                      My garments once in a field I gave
                      To a pair of carven poles;
                      Heroes they seemed when clothes they had,
                      But the naked man is nothing.

                      50
                      On the hillside drear the fir-tree dies,
                      All bootless its needles and bark;
                      It is like a man whom no one loves,
                      Why should his life be long?

                      46 - Basically, if you don't trust someone and you can't tell what they're thinking, give the same things to them as they give to you. If they're friendly and give you gifts, then do that; if they're jerks, don't tolerate them and give them their bad attitude right back. While this seems a good way to cause a fight, at least know you don't have to put up with them and whatever they're doing to you, so you can walk away or try to get them to stop doing whatever it is they're doing at any time.

                      47 - Everyone needs a comrade, especially on the road. Traveling alone gets tiring, lonely, and is also fairly dangerous.

                      48 - If you're brave and noble you will (obviously) have fewer things that bother you, and will also give more freely of what you have, than if you're not.

                      49 - The clothes make the man (or woman ). You could be the greatest hero of all time, you could even be a God, and nobody would know if you didn't dress the part. Likewise, the lowest people can change the perception of themselves by dressing like kings.

                      50 - If you don't make friends you won't last long, and if you don't have any friends, companions, or loved ones then you probably won't want to last long.
                      [hr]

                      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                      Post by: Maythe on June 29, 2009, 02:08:03 PM


                      I like 50. I think there's also possibly the fact that a friendless man would literally not live long in those rather harsh times. It reminds me of the Anglo-Saxon poem 'The Wanderer' (which I haven't read for about 7 years so don't go testing me on it! ).
                      [hr]

                      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                      Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 29, 2009, 08:56:31 PM


                      46- Don't give out privy information to people you don't trust (I should think that this goes without saying), but also don't treat them poorly. Give them what they deserve.

                      47- Humans are social creatures, and after long days spent wandering, little is better than companionship.

                      48- Again we see the art of gifting cropping up again. Someone who is free with their gifts rarely leads a bad life. The stingy never give gifts, and thusly never receive them.

                      49- I think that this has a deeper meaning than being about clothes (although I think Thjoth makes a nice point). A pair of carven poles could easily be a kenning for Ask and Embla, the first man an woman. Odin himself clothes those in need, another point on hospitality.

                      50- In this stanza we see another link between man and tree (further fueling my above belief). A man who no-one loves should not have a long life, and indeed I imagine he generally wouldn't want one.
                      [hr]

                      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                      Post by: Dustin86 on June 29, 2009, 09:09:22 PM


                      i read somewhere, that this was not Odin's words, but an oracle (whom i cant remember the name) who is talking directly to Odin. Also, that Ask and Embla arent the first humans, but the only ones left after the Ragnarok, who will then re-populate the planet.
                      [hr]

                      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                      Post by: immortal_dragon on June 29, 2009, 11:38:30 PM


                      In the Voluspo Odin is speaking with a volva and she relays numerous bits of info about Odin's past and future. Ask and Embla were the first humans that Odin, Honir, and Loki created and there are two that hide in Yggdrasil during Ragnarok and emerge afterwards. The names of these last two I can't seem to recall.
                      [hr]

                      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                      Post by: Maythe on June 30, 2009, 01:47:29 PM


                      Off the top of my head, Lif and Lifthrandsir. I think. Meaning 'life' and something else to do with life - I forget!
                      [hr]

                      Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                      Post by: Crimson Horizons on June 30, 2009, 05:10:46 PM
                      "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                      "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Edda Discussion - H

                        Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                        Post by: Thjoth on July 05, 2009, 11:11:21 PM


                        And here's the next installment:


                        51
                        Hotter than fire between false friends
                        Does friendship five days burn;
                        When the sixth day comes the fire cools,
                        And ended is all the love.

                        52
                        No great thing needs a man to give,
                        Often little will purchase praise;
                        With half a loaf and a half-filled cup
                        A friend full fast I made.

                        53
                        A little sand has a little sea,
                        And small are the minds of men;
                        Though all men are not equal in wisdom,
                        Yet half-wise only are all.

                        54
                        A measure of wisdom each man shall have,
                        But never too much let him know;
                        The fairest lives do those men live
                        Whose wisdom wide has grown.

                        55
                        A measure of wisdom each man shall have,
                        But never too much let him know;
                        For the wise man's heart is seldom happy,
                        If wisdom too great he has won.


                        51 - A friendship that takes off extremely quickly will usually crash just as fast, and was probably just begun by one of the parties involved in an effort to get something anyway.

                        52 - The little things are every bit as appreciated as grand gifts when you're trying to make friends. A warm place to sleep and a meal will earn you the friendship of a person pretty quickly.

                        53 - I'm not entirely sure what the first part of this was going for, but the second part just means that if you're the wisest man in the world, you're still a halfwit in the grand scheme of things.

                        54 - Wise men lead better and more fulfilling lives than fools do. Even if a fool has a good life, he would be too idiotic to realize how good it is.

                        55 - "Ignorance is bliss", and that does hold true pretty often. The more you know, the more things you have to think about, and the more things you have to think about, the more you're going to worry about what might happen.
                        [hr]

                        Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                        Post by: immortal_dragon on July 06, 2009, 02:00:07 AM


                        52- Even if its something small any little gift counts. As long as you're willing to give something you'll likely make a friend.

                        53- While you can learn as much in one lifetime as you can, you'll never learn everything.

                        54- People who strive to learn everyday will live better lives than those that just sit about never learning anything.
                        [hr]

                        Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                        Post by: Maythe on July 06, 2009, 11:33:40 AM


                        I've seen the truth of 51 many times - I have a friend who tends to make 'hot fast' friendships and a few months later those people are on the 'he/she who shall not be named' list.

                        I like 52 too - often the smallest gift is the most thoughtful and the most needed.

                        [hr]

                        Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                        Post by: Crimson Horizons on July 06, 2009, 05:25:29 PM


                        51- I somewhat disagree with this stanza, as I have had numerous friendships "burn hot" well beyond five days. I think, however, that this stanza is a good measuring point. If a friendship that was going great cannot make it past five days, I would cut my losses and move on.

                        52- More on gifting (are we beginning to see how important gifting was to our ancestors?). Grand gifts are unnecessary, and can run the risk of insulting your intended recipient by giving him a gift he can never repay (thusly indebting him to you for life should he accept). However, small gifts, especially the gifts of food and drink, are often enough to gain you friends. Breaking bread with someone, most especially when that bread is yours, can earn you a lifetime friend.

                        53- For the first two half-lines, I think Chisholm's translation is best "A small lake has a little sand". No matter how wise we are, and how much wiser we are than those we know, our wisdom cannot compare to what *can* be known in the world.

                        54 & 55- I think these two stanzas need to be explained together. I believe the point of the stanzas to be learn what you can, but learn only what you truly want to know. One who is fairly wise can lead a good life. He who has gained too much wisdom is forever burdened by what he knows. What has been learned cannot be unlearned, and some things should not be known.


                        "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                        "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Edda Discussion - H

                          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                          Post by: Thjoth on July 12, 2009, 11:33:56 PM


                          Here we go again...on page 4 now!


                          56
                          A measure of wisdom each man shall have,
                          But never too much let him know;
                          Let no man the fate before him see,
                          For so is he freest from sorrow.

                          57
                          A brand from a brand is kindled and burned,
                          And fire from fire begotten;
                          And man by his speech is known to men,
                          And the stupid by their stillness.

                          58
                          He must early go forth who fain the blood
                          Or the goods of another would get;
                          The wolf that lies idle shall win little meat,
                          Or the sleeping man success.

                          59
                          He must early go forth whose workers are few,
                          Himself his work to seek;
                          Much remains undone for the morning-sleeper,
                          For the swift is wealth half won.

                          60
                          Of seasoned shingles and strips of bark
                          For the thatch let one know his need,
                          And how much of wood he must have for a month,
                          Or in half a year he will use.



                          56 - Things are better that you can't know your final fate. It keeps you free from sadness or despair that may arise from whatever your end may be. Odin probably speaks from experience here, as he knows exactly what his fate will be at Ragnarok, as do most of the gods.

                          57 - People know you by what you say (and I'd like to add that they know you by what you do, as well). If you take no action or are silent ALL of the time, then people will begin to think you an idiot. If you talk too much, as covered before, you'll make an idiot out of yourself as well. I think this ties back to the earlier verses saying to "ask and answer wisely".

                          58 & 59 - Don't sleep in. Rise early and begin your work for the day, otherwise other people will have a head start on you. This goes especially if you don't have much in the way of aid with the task at hand. This is one I need to work on, as I'm so far from a morning person it's not even funny...

                          60 - Budget. Know what you need, before you need it, and plan accordingly. Don't fly by the seat of your pants or you'll wind up screwing yourself over. Another one I need to work on...
                          [hr]

                          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                          Post by: immortal_dragon on July 12, 2009, 11:51:38 PM


                          56- If you gain so much knowledge as to figure out exactly what happens to him in the end. What good would living that life be when you are constantly aware of the date when it all ends. And personally I don't believe I'd like to learn the events in between now and when I die either. I'd much rather see the story unfold instead of know what happens next.

                          57- A tool is used for its specific purpose and speech is no different, its a tool. A tool to communicate to others and in that communication you convey your knowledge of lack thereof.

                          58 & 59- I think these two tie into one another. If you want something get out there and get it. Those who sit and wait for things to come to them don't normally get what they want. When things need to get done, nothing will get done if you stay asleep all morning. You wake up late you don't get all the things done that need to be seen to.

                          60- Conserve your resources. Don't gather anymore than what you need.
                          Get what you need for any particular situation. Don't get caught in a perdicament where you don't have enough of something.
                          [hr]

                          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                          Post by: Maythe on July 13, 2009, 11:35:11 AM


                          I think 57 is not just about speaking sensibly but also about knowledge passing from one person to another by speech (or perhaps in this modern, more text based world, words). If no-one spoke, no-one would become more wise.

                          60 is one the western world as a whole needs to work on!
                          [hr]

                          Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                          Post by: Crimson Horizons on July 14, 2009, 05:34:35 PM


                          Grr... hit the wrong button and lost my post.

                          56- Self explanatory if you ask me.

                          57- Thjoth summed up my thoughts nicely.

                          58- Don't slack off if you want to get the drop on someone (or if you don't want them to get the drop on you).

                          59- Get done what you need to quickly, and you'll find you have time for other things.

                          60- Wise advise indeed. While most of us relate to this financially, for our ancestors this was life and death. Poorly conserved resources for the winter often lead to the death of you and your entire family.
                          "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                          "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Edda Discussion - H

                            Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                            Post by: Thjoth on July 22, 2009, 12:12:26 AM


                            Apologies folks, the last week or so has been hectic, and when I haven't been working I've been asleep. There's a new person at work that I have to work with that's EXTREMELY energetic, and they've been running me into the ground trying to keep up... I didn't realize that I forgot to post this week's passage until just now.


                            61
                            Washed and fed to the council fare,
                            But care not too much for your clothes;
                            Let none be ashamed of his shoes and hose,
                            Less still of the steed he rides,
                            (Though poor be the horse he has.)

                            62
                            When the eagle comes to the ancient sea,
                            He snaps and hangs his head;
                            So is a man in the midst of a throng,
                            Who few to speak for him finds.

                            63
                            To question and answer must all be ready
                            Who wish to be known as wise;
                            Tell one your thoughts, but beware of two,
                            All know what is known to three.

                            64
                            The man who is prudent a measured use
                            Of the might he has will make;
                            He finds when among the brave he fares
                            That the boldest he may not be.

                            65
                            . . .
                            Often for the words that to others one speaks
                            He will get but an evil gift.


                            61 - Don't be ashamed of your possessions if they're poor ones. While others may have richer possessions and clothes, the fact that you have anything at all - and that you're healthy enough to be out and about - is a big thing. Plus, even though people that have more expensive clothes give an IMPRESSION of greater importance and status, in the end everyone is on equal footing, especially if you're going to some function such as a court date or a meeting for an administrative body.

                            62 - Not quite sure here, but I think it's saying that a man in a crowd with no one to speak good of him hangs his head in shame. I think.

                            63 - Back to asking and answering well to be known as wise. However, this makes an interesting point: If you answer one person or tell him your thoughts, that's one thing. If you tell two people your thoughts, you're wandering into the danger zone; and if you tell a third person your thoughts, then EVERYONE will know them. This is why you need to be able to answer well; even if you only tell two people your thoughts, one of them can easily tell a third, and soon everyone will know whether or not you're a fool.

                            64 - Know your strengths and pick your fights. It's OK if you're not the biggest, strongest, best, and most courageous person among a group of such people. Pace yourself within your own limits that you should know, and everything will turn out the best that way. Trying to be the bravest among the brave will mark you out, and if you're not ready for that, you'll be easily destroyed.

                            65 - It's a little hard to tell this one because half the verse is lost. From what I can tell, it's saying that you shouldn't talk or spread your opinion around unnecessarily, because that will mark you out and more often than not only evil will befall you.
                            [hr]

                            Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                            Post by: Dustin86 on July 22, 2009, 12:56:39 AM


                            63- I think is saying not to gossip or tell secrets. Don't tell people what you would not want everyone to know
                            [hr]

                            Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                            Post by: Maythe on July 22, 2009, 12:04:00 PM


                            I like 61 - to be clean and fed is more important than possessions. Equally I think it works the other way - people who keep themselves clean and fed should be treated with respect, however poor their attire.
                            [hr]

                            Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                            Post by: Dustin86 on July 22, 2009, 12:54:47 PM


                            I think its interesting that the Havamal is just like the Hagakure, in that they both teach etiquette and life lessons along the same lines.
                            [hr]

                            Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                            Post by: Crimson Horizons on July 22, 2009, 05:19:49 PM


                            61- I agree with Maythe on this one; being clean is more important than how fancy your possessions are. I think it also goes to show that our ancestors were not the "unclean barbarians" many believe them to be.

                            62- Like Thjoth, I'm not quite sure of the meaning. I think mayhap it points out the futility of pleading your case with no one to back you up.

                            63- To be known as wise, one must be able to answer question well; a throwback to earlier stanzas. However, I think it also points out how to keep a secret.

                            64- Indeed, I think Thjoth sums this one up nicely.

                            65- I think that its impossible to fully know what this stanza is trying to impart without the first four half-lines. I'll not even wager a guess as to what it's meaning is.
                            [hr]

                            Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                            Post by: thalassa on July 22, 2009, 06:11:23 PM


                            62
                            When the eagle comes to the ancient sea,
                            He snaps and hangs his head;
                            So is a man in the midst of a throng,
                            Who few to speak for him finds.



                            Other translations:

                            62.
                            Like an eagle swooping over old ocean,
                            snatching after his prey,
                            so comes a man into court who finds
                            there are few to defend his cause.

                            ( http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html )


                            62

                            As the eagle who comes to the ocean shore,
                            Sniffs and hangs her head,
                            Dumfounded is he who finds at the Thing
                            No supporters to plead his case.

                            ( http://www.geocities.com/heimdalls_lur/havamal.html )


                            So...its a bummer to find yourself alone with no support...


                            (I wonder if thats because you forgot to follow #61 )
                            "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                            "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Edda Discussion - H

                              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                              Post by: Thjoth on July 27, 2009, 10:51:23 PM


                              Dangit, forgot again, sorry...

                              ...well, technically it's still Monday so technically I'm still on time


                              66
                              Too early to many a meeting I came,
                              And some too late have I sought;
                              The beer was all drunk, or not yet brewed;
                              Little the loathed man finds.
                              "A man must be watchful and wary as well,
                              And fearful of trusting a friend."

                              67
                              To their homes men would bid me hither and yon,
                              If at meal-time I needed no meat,
                              Or would hang two hams in my true friend's house,
                              Where only one I had eaten.

                              68
                              Fire for men is the fairest gift,
                              And power to see the sun;
                              Health as well, if a man may have it,
                              And a life not stained with sin.

                              69
                              All wretched is no man, though never so sick;
                              Some from their sons have joy,
                              Some win it from kinsmen, and some from their wealth,
                              And some from worthy works.

                              70
                              It is better to live than to lie a corpse,
                              The live man catches the cow;
                              I saw flames rise for the rich man's pyre,
                              And before his door he lay dead.


                              OK, this group seems like it's wandering a little more than usual...well, OK, a lot more than usual. I'm going to put the other translations here as well.

                              Bray:

                              66.

                              At many a feast I was far too late,

                              and much too soon at some;

                              drunk was the ale or yet unserved:

                              never hits he the joint who is hated.


                              67.

                              Here and there to a home I had haply been asked

                              had I needed no meat at my meals,

                              or were two hams left hanging in the house of that friend

                              where I had partaken of one.


                              68.

                              Most dear is fire to the sons of men,

                              most sweet the sight of the sun;

                              good is health if one can but keep it,

                              and to live a life without shame.


                              69.

                              Not reft of all is he who is ill,

                              for some are blest in their bairns,

                              some in their kin and some in their wealth,

                              and some in working well.


                              70.

                              More blest are the living than the lifeless,

                              'tis the living who come by the cow;

                              I saw the hearth-fire burn in the rich man's hall

                              and himself lying dead at the door.



                              Chisholm:

                              66.

                              Far too early I arrived at many steads,

                              But too late at others,

                              The ale was already drunk or yet unbrewed.

                              The loathed find little among the folk.


                              67.

                              Here and there they had me in their homes,

                              if I was not hungry for meat

                              or hung two hams for the true friend

                              for the one I had eaten.


                              68.

                              Fire is better for the sons of men

                              and the sight of the sun.

                              Good health also, if a man can keep it

                              and live without shame.


                              69.

                              A man is not entirely bereft

                              though his health is poor.

                              Some are blessed with sons some by friends,

                              some by wealth and others by good works.


                              70.

                              Better to be alive and happy.

                              The quick always get the cattle.

                              The fire burned for the wealthy man,

                              but the dead man lays outside.



                              Anderson:

                              66.

                              Much too early

                              I came to many places,

                              But too late to others;

                              The beer was drunk,

                              Or not ready:

                              The disliked seldom hits the moment.


                              67.

                              Here and there I should

                              Have been invited

                              If I a meal had needed;

                              Or two hams had hung

                              At that true friend's

                              Where of one I had eaten.



                              68.

                              Fire is best

                              Among the sons of men,

                              And the sight of the sun,

                              If his health

                              A man can have,

                              With a life free from vice.


                              69.

                              No man lacks everything,

                              Although his health be bad:

                              One in his sons is happy,

                              One in his kin,

                              One in abundant wealth,

                              One in his good works.


                              70.

                              It is better to live,

                              Even to live miserably;

                              A living man can always get a cow.

                              I saw fire consume

                              The rich man's property,

                              And death stood without his door.




                              Hopefully that helps to clarify.

                              66 - If someone is disliked, you'll find that they've always either "just missed" the party, or that the party has changed dates, or that they're there far too early. They never seem to be able to hit the correct time for an event, curiously

                              67 - Still not sure what this one's saying, even with the translations. Give more than you get, maybe?

                              68 - Being healthy, out and about, and avoiding shaming yourself is the best way to live.

                              69 - You can't truly have absolutely nothing. If nothing else, you have your life. Even if you don't have your good health, you can still take joy in other things like your children, your family, your good works, heck, even your money if you've got it.

                              70 - You're vastly better off alive than as a corpse, even if you're miserable. This is rather ironic, talking about the rich man's fire burning in his hearth with him dead outside his door. Once we're dead, we're all in the same boat, and it's no cruise liner either.
                              [hr]

                              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                              Post by: Maythe on July 28, 2009, 03:20:20 AM


                              That is a slightly obscure bunch of verses. The first two lines of 67 in particular are unclear - is it saying that people will always offer you food when you have no need of it? 69 and 70 are the most straightforward I think.
                              [hr]

                              Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
                              Post by: Crimson Horizons on July 28, 2009, 07:02:34 PM


                              66- I'm not entirely certain what this one stems from. Is the early/late person hated because they are constantly so? Or is it more along the lines of they are hated, thus they receive inaccurate times for the party? Curious...

                              67- I think this one shows the dichotomy of friends, both false and true. The false friend would invite you to their feasts only if they knew that you had already eaten, wherefore the true friend would invite you regardless. The last two half-lines show how one responds to the kindness of the true friend.

                              68- Fire and sight are true gifts; enjoy them above most things. Count yourself lucky if you have these things, and also if you're in good health and have lived a good life.

                              69- Even if you lack the things mentioned in stanza 68, rejoice in what you do have, be it kith, kin, wealth, or a good name.

                              70- An interesting stanza, and one that must be taken in context. To me, this says that life is better than death, even taking into account one's standard of living. It does not (to me, at least) say to be cowardly and avoid death at all costs. One must still live a good life for it to be worth living.

                              "The proper office of a friend is to side with you when you are in the wrong. Nearly anybody will side with you when you are in the right."--Mark Twain

                              "There are only two types of people in this world who walk around beardless; boys and women. I am neither one." --Ancient Greek saying

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