Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

[Thorbjorn]

Please do not think I am a horrible person, but I'd like to get opinions and/or if other people have experienced this.

I have a framed picture of my parents on my altar. So what's the problem, you ask? Well, I didn't have a very good relationship with my parents as I look back. They were in truth not very nice people, to each other or to us (my siblings and me). We were not physically abused, we always had food and clothing, we really wanted for nothing materially. It was the emotional aspect. My parents were always angry with each other, and apart from providing material things they were very self-centered. Being the 6th of 5 surviving children, I was raised pretty much as an only child. The age gaps between me and my siblings are 19 years, 17 years, 15 years, 12 years. A brother 6 years older than me is the one who died. My siblings were more like aunts and uncles to me. My brothers went into the US Navy, and my sisters got married asap to get out of our home. I was left as a pawn between my parents

Anyway, the conflict I have is that, given the emphasis placed on honoring ancestors in the Asatru tradition, am I being a hypocrite by having my parents' picture on the altar only because I feel I "should"? I realize that without them, fighting one day, not talking the next notwithstanding, I would not be here. I feel more of an affinity for the ancestors of centuries past, even though of course I don't even know who they are. Sometimes I think maybe I should just have a small print of a person from the Viking Age, like one you'd find on the internet.

So that's it.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

I would never do something just because you think you 'should' because your heart won't be in it, and if that's the case then it's not worth doing anyway. I have a similar problem, though I loved my Dad, my mother and I never got on. Long story and I won't bore you with it. Would I put her photo on my altar (or anywhere else for that matter?) No.
Honour is not the same as liking. I do not honour my mother because, quite frankly she was a nasty cow. She did not honour me. And in my book honour needs to be reciprocated in order for it to work.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

Yes, that's kind of what I'm thinking now... that I shouldn't be doing it if my heart is not in it, that I shouldn't go through the motions because that makes it phony. I couldn't put my finger on it before, but something felt "off". Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. I do have their wedding picture on a wall, but because it's a sepia from 1936, it's more of an objet d'art. So to that end I'll probably remove it from the altar and put it somewhere else in my house. I mean, they were my parents. I didn't hate them (though they could put it to the test!), but I don't think feeling the way I do, the altar is the best place for the picture. Thanks for the perspective.

[Ula]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

Ancestors are more than our birth parents. If you don't feel a connection to them it's not really something your going to get anything out of and neither will they. You should never do anything your uncomfortable with. The gods get that stuff.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

Thanks Ula. Yes, you are right on all those points. When I do offerings I try to think of my parents, but it just doesn't happen. So what is the point? Even though they gave me life, it's like they are strangers. I never gave this any thought until I became Asatruar. It's like it's making me wake up to a number of things.

[habbalah]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

Thanks Ula. Yes, you are right on all those points. When I do offerings I try to think of my parents, but it just doesn't happen. So what is the point? Even though they gave me life, it's like they are strangers. I never gave this any thought until I became Asatruar. It's like it's making me wake up to a number of things.

I'm sure Thor understands your relationship with your parents and why you would choose not to have them on your altar. Do you have other members you could honor? Grandparents or aunts/uncles?

[thalassa]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

One one hand...fake it til you make it has something to be said for it as a technique... Sometimes the act of doing something that you are uncomfortable with makes room for the thing you are uncomfortable with and puts it in perspective. On the other hand, doing something just because so-and-so says so is generally an invitation for a waste of time at best and a big mistake at otherwise. But...(somewhere between the two?) there's something to be said for seeing our parents for the flawed human beings they were/are, just as much a product of their time and upbringing as we are, likely doing what they thought was right the best they were able, even if it wasn't what we wanted or needed from them, and coming to peace with that.

I don't practice ancestor veneration at all (my reasoning here), but I do practice "awesome people veneration".

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

I'm sure Thor understands your relationship with your parents and why you would choose not to have them on your altar. Do you have other members you could honor? Grandparents or aunts/uncles?

I lost pictures of my grandparents, but I didn't know them very well anyway. Come to think of it, I don't really have any pictures anymore. I think they are packed in moving boxes. I had an aunt, who was my godmother whom I miss very much, but dammit, I don't have a picture of her either! I think this all says something about my relationship with my family... I'm adopted. lol

- - - Updated - - -

One one hand...fake it til you make it has something to be said for it as a technique... Sometimes the act of doing something that you are uncomfortable with makes room for the thing you are uncomfortable with and puts it in perspective. On the other hand, doing something just because so-and-so says so is generally an invitation for a waste of time at best and a big mistake at otherwise. But...(somewhere between the two?) there's something to be said for seeing our parents for the flawed human beings they were/are, just as much a product of their time and upbringing as we are, likely doing what they thought was right the best they were able, even if it wasn't what we wanted or needed from them, and coming to peace with that.

I don't practice ancestor veneration at all (my reasoning here), but I do practice "awesome people veneration".

You hit on something I did learn long ago... they were flawed, as are we all, and they used the tools and gifts they had to work with. I hold no anger or bitterness (anymore ), because I learned that they were who they were, and could be no more and no less due to their times and upbringing. And if they weren't who they were, I wouldn't be who I am, and I am who I am for some reason (whoa, I think the mead got to me!). Maybe I'm not so into ancestor veneration as I think I'm "supposed to be" (notice " marks), and I was just following the crowd.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

Honoring your ancestors* doesn't have to be a literal, specific thing... and by that I mean that it doesn't have to be specific people, and not every single person in your heritage is going to end up as a tangible 'ancestor' who guides and teaches you. So it's perfectly okay to have your parents in the non-specific 'all my ancestors' category rather than named and represented by an image.

Having said that, part of ancestor honoring is about recognising the lessons that they taught us, the heritage that they passed down to us, and the part they played in the formation of our orlog. It sounds to me like your parents taught you some valuable lessons... perhaps not the lessons that you think should be taught by parents, but lessons about what NOT to be or do as a person. I suspect they were so vitriolic to each other because divorce wasn't as much of an option for that generation, and they had 5 children... so they stuck it out because they felt they had to, and did the best they could in the situation. They provided for your physical needs, and they got caught up in the emotional failure like so many parents of that generation and earlier did.

We don't have to honor them as people... but we can still honor the part that they played in the formation of who we are. Ancestor honoring can go several ways... we can pick and choose the 'cool' ancestors that we have and put up symbols of them and hold them up as romanticized ideals from a time long past... we can take a spirit-work approach and honor the ancestors who put themselves forward when asked, who we may never know the actual history or 'real' identity of (which doesn't actually matter, but some people get caught up in that)... or we can honor the ancestors that we know, in all their flawed and unassuming glory, those we liked and those we didn't, but recognising the part they played in our formation.

The way that you take your ancestor veneration depends largely on you. Many Heathens and NT folk do it because they feel they are supposed to... because that's what our ancestors did so we're supposed to do it. But that leads to a wishy washy practice where you end up going through motions and not actually having any sort of enriching experience with it... and where you aren't sure of the details of what you are doing or why. So WHY do you honor your ancestors? Why do you want to honor the 'cool' ones from the Viking Age? What is the point of honoring those over the recent ones? What about all the ones in the middle... the plain 'ol boring European ones who never did anything other than survive? What is the point of doing any of this? And for that matter, why did our ancestors do it?

That's not to say that we shouldn't do it... just that we should be asking these questions of ourselves before doing it. And working out what it all actually means to us, rather than putting up an altar and getting caught up in whether or not we should honor the ancestor we didn't like.

* When I say 'ancestors' I don't just mean blood relatives... my definition is the wider one where godparents, foster parents, teachers, significant role models and blood-brother-type-peeps are included. It's not just the ones who contributed the dna to you... but who contributed their time, lessons and influence.

[Medusa]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

My law of the land. Do not honor those who are not honorable. Makes things simple. And yeah, I do honor my parents since they are both on the other side and were very honorable peeps.

[Rick]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

It only takes 20 generations to equal 524,288 direct-line ancestors. Maybe a world-tree token to represent your family tree would be a good altar piece. And when you honor them, just honor all of them, all the way back to the beginning. And put the photo of mom and dad on the mantel, or in the scrapbook, as you will.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

I love all these comments, thanks. Even if I don't address each point, know I'm taking this seriously. This stuff is a keeper. That said...

...

Having said that, part of ancestor honoring is about recognising the lessons that they taught us, the heritage that they passed down to us, and the part they played in the formation of our orlog. It sounds to me like your parents taught you some valuable lessons... perhaps not the lessons that you think should be taught by parents, but lessons about what NOT to be or do as a person. I suspect they were so vitriolic to each other because divorce wasn't as much of an option for that generation, and they had 5 children... so they stuck it out because they felt they had to, and did the best they could in the situation. They provided for your physical needs, and they got caught up in the emotional failure like so many parents of that generation and earlier did.

Yes, that's it! I find myself doing and saying things that mostly my father but sometimes my mother, used to do and say. I cut myself off at the knees from doing whatever it was they did. I catch myself and say "Crap! I'm channeling him" and I stop. I've seen what I didn't like what they did, and I hope I learned not to be like that. Yes, I have indeed learned from them, as you said, not in the way one would think of learning from one's parents. I've also learned a lot from my sisters. My brothers are pretty laid back and chill, but my sisters are extremely opinionated and judgmental, as were my parents. In the interest of brevity (I know, too late ) I'll just say that for all the things my sisters judged people, the proverbial chickens have come home to roost. "I'm not one to blow my own vertugen flugen" (I love Rose Nyland), but I like to think I've become almost completely non-judgemental, except for people on the road.

We don't have to honor them as people... but we can still honor the part that they played in the formation of who we are. Ancestor honoring can go several ways... we can pick and choose the 'cool' ancestors that we have and put up symbols of them and hold them up as romanticized ideals from a time long past...

In that vein, I really like Rick's idea of the World Tree. Maybe an abstract picture or item representing ancestry... maybe something like, but not exactly the Ancestry.com logo.

The way that you take your ancestor veneration depends largely on you. Many Heathens and NT folk do it because they feel they are supposed to... because that's what our ancestors did so we're supposed to do it. But that leads to a wishy washy practice where you end up going through motions and not actually having any sort of enriching experience with it...

Which is the crux of the matter here.

and where you aren't sure of the details of what you are doing or why. So WHY do you honor your ancestors? Why do you want to honor the 'cool' ones from the Viking Age? What is the point of honoring those over the recent ones? What about all the ones in the middle... the plain 'ol boring European ones who never did anything other than survive? What is the point of doing any of this? And for that matter, why did our ancestors do it?

I won't deny that there's a certain romanticism about the past... my past, whether I am descended from Sicilian goatherds and lemon farmers, or Germanic (Norse or Norman or Anglo-Saxon) farmers. Though I think there's a something a little more interesting and romantic about Norse peasants than there is about Sicilian peasants.

My law of the land. Do not honor those who are not honorable. Makes things simple. And yeah, I do honor my parents since they are both on the other side and were very honorable peeps.

It only takes 20 generations to equal 524,288 direct-line ancestors. Maybe a world-tree token to represent your family tree would be a good altar piece. And when you honor them, just honor all of them, all the way back to the beginning. And put the photo of mom and dad on the mantel, or in the scrapbook, as you will.

Yep, as I said up above, I love this. My new task... find something meaningful that speaks to me.

[Noir]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

Although I don't have a picture of her on my altar--for that matter anywhere in my home, I honour my grandmother every anniversary of her passing through a thanksgiving prayer. She played a very big role in my life, and taught me a lot of what I know today. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be who I am now.
I know the same will be done for my mother, when she too must leave this earth.

[Ula]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

You could always use a piece of Elm and Ash to represent Ask and Embla. Just go all the way back.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Honoring ancestors, parents specifically

You could always use a piece of Elm and Ash to represent Ask and Embla. Just go all the way back.

Cool idea.