The Gods with time/destiny?

[Amadi]

I've been looking into Asatru tradition recently and I'm enjoying reading about it, though I'm still new to many aspects. I recently read into Loki's lore a bit and it led to a few questions.

The Lokesenna lore states from what I understand that as a result of Baldur's death, Loki is bound beneath to a serpent whose venom causes him great pain from now until Ragnarok, doesn't this mean he's impossible to approach/seek as he's essentially imprisoned?

I'm taking the Edda and history of the gods fairly literally in my research and this turned me away slightly, I want to know what people think; with everything destined to happen to the Gods now and at Ragnarok are the Gods following a set course? Are Loki and Baldur unapproachable or are the Gods less affected by time and this destiny?
Also as a side note, how inevitable do people view Ragnarok? Would it really be all Loki's doing?

Hopefully you guys understand the questions, I can't really phrase them in a way that makes perfect sense >.<

[iris]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

depending on who you ask it wasn't killing balder, but pissing off the gods at a feast which led to his imprisonment. not that it matters, chained is chained nomatter how he got there I've actually wondered kind of the same thing lately (you're not the only one reading up on the norse myths)... But I don't take it as literally... it's not like he's physically chained somewhere... I think it's kind of the same with the other gods. some people approach the young odin - there was a time before he lost his eye and learned the runes, some approach the old... So time doesn't seem to be the same. I have no idea I'll be looking in to see what people who know more have to say about it.

[Blodsbroder]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

That's nice, according to string theory diffrent dimensions exists. Yggdrasill might be the bridge between the worlds ? and according to the same theory based on e=mc2 time itself can bend. If the gods live in another dimension that would also mean that they can use time at their own will..

i love this

[Rick]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

Ragnarok has already been. Ragnarok has yet to be. Ragnarok will be again.

Methinks you're over thinking... just roll with it...

Ragnarok and roll, baby!!!

[Blodsbroder]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

INdeed, it might be a warning to the fall of civilisation, and it has happend the same way almost everytime. The tricksters sparks it, normal folk starvs, the heroes gets beaten and their children wins in the long run, but evil isn't defeated.

The fall of USA has given us a theory that's pretty known. it's called the life cicle of empires and it uses fallen empires and the american empire as models of a falling empire which seem to fall the same way everytime.

1. The age of outburst (or pioneers).

2. The age of conquests.

3. The age of commerce.

4. The age of affluence.

5. The age of intellect.

6. The age of decadence.

7. The age of decline and collapse.

We are currently at the age of decadence, perhaps that age could also be called the age of loki ?

- - - Updated - - -

/watch?v=_qYvtDaVEYM

[Thorbjorn]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

I think I asked the same question somewhere, and the answer was pretty much similar... time is not linear, there are different planes and dimensions, different outcomes. These are things I always believed, but until now never applied them in this context. But more than anything literal to be taken out of the mythos and lore are the lessons. They may be buried deep and hard to find, but they are there. I think finding the lessons and living by them is far more important than trying to reconcile the stories literally with physics.

[SilverShadow]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

I'm with the "time is wibbly wobbly" crowd.

As for Ragnarok, I think it's debatable as to whether it was/is/will be a self-fulfilling prophesy or just something that was going to happen regardless. I mean, there's always that question of "What if?". Like, "What if Odin didn't know the Fenrir wolf would devour him at Ragnarok?" If the wolf hadn't been put in chains, would he have sought out Odin? Would he have even fought with the Jormundur?

I do think that what is in less dispute is that given the weight the ancient Norse placed on destiny and righting of wrongs, that Ragnarok isn't something we can just decide isn't going to happen after all.

[Shahaku]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

Blodsbroder and Thorbjorn, I've removed the color formatting from your posts. We stick with automatic around here, unless it is a moderator or admin post, green and red respectively. Anything else can be hard to read, depending on the background the person is using. Automatic changes according to the background. Please refrain from using colored font in the future.

[Rae'ya]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

I've been looking into Asatru tradition recently and I'm enjoying reading about it, though I'm still new to many aspects. I recently read into Loki's lore a bit and it led to a few questions.

The Lokesenna lore states from what I understand that as a result of Baldur's death, Loki is bound beneath to a serpent whose venom causes him great pain from now until Ragnarok, doesn't this mean he's impossible to approach/seek as he's essentially imprisoned?

The short answer is no.

The long answer depends a little bit on how you view the Nine Worlds vs Thisworld and the soul complex. Basically, as I see it, just because his physical body is bound within the Nine Worlds, doesn't mean that his non-physical presence can't interface with Thisworld. You can think of it like... he can't go traipsing around in the Nine Worlds in a physical form (his lich), but he can still fare forth in non-physical form (his hame). And when we interact with the gods, we are not interacting with their actual physical bodies (which I believe are in the Nine Worlds, which is a different plane of existence to Thisworld) but with their non-physical 'bodies'.

I've also heard (and believe in) the 'time is not linear' theory, but I don't personally find that particularly relevant to Loki's binding because of what I said above.

And yeah... they bound him more because he ticked them off by throwing their hypocrisy in their faces. It was the final straw in a long history of them making him their scapegoat (some of it deserved, some of it not). Him being instrumental in the slaying of Baldr and admitting to that at the feast certainly didn't help his situation, though.

I'm taking the Edda and history of the gods fairly literally in my research...

Personally I don't think that ANY mythology should be taken literally. Mythology is stories and personal experiences that turned into stories. Specifically regarding the Edda... the Poetic Edda are a collection of old stories that were recorded by Christian monks several hundred years after the conversion... which means that at the time they were written down, they weren't living, breathing stories about actively worshiped gods. The Prose Edda was written by a Christian monk FOR Christian monks... basically as a handbook for how they should convert the old stories into folktales and superstition, in order to better spread the 'truth' they were teaching. So keep that in mind while you are reading and interpreting the Lore. It's no different (conceptually) to the Bible... it's just a collection of stories from a particular culture about a particular set of gods and their corresponding world/s.

... and this turned me away slightly, I want to know what people think; with everything destined to happen to the Gods now and at Ragnarok are the Gods following a set course?

Fate and destiny in the Northern faiths is a complex thing... there is a certain amount that is 'set' and predetermined, but mostly the future is determined by the choices that are made in the present. Doors open and close depending on the choices that we (and the gods) make. The closer you get to a particular event, the narrower the selection of doors become, and it is possible to set yourself on a path that only has one outcome because your choices have closed off all the other doors. Is this predetermined and set 'fate'... no. It's the repercussions and consequences of the choices that you make now and have made in the past.

As for the gods and specifically the events of Ragnarok... maybe some of it is self-fulfilling prophecy. The Volva tells Othinn one version of the future... and he then goes on to spend the majority of his time and energy trying to prevent that future. Perhaps the Nornir set that particular event as a lesson for him that not even he can turn Their hands. Perhaps the reason Fenrir will chose to go after Othinn at Ragnarok rather than anyone else is because Othinn was ultimately responsible for stealing him from his family and locking him away... why did Othinn do this? Was it because he wanted to remove Fenrir's destructive and dangerous influence, or because he's trying to stave off Ragnarok in the hopes he can change his fate? If Othinn had not betrayed Fenrir (yes, I know that it was Tyr who did the deed, but Othinn was the driving force behind it) would Fenrir choose someone else to go after at Ragnarok? So you can see it's a complex thing.

Are Loki and Baldur unapproachable or are the Gods less affected by time and this destiny?

Modern experience tells us that they are very approachable and accessible to us. Loki we already talked about. Baldr is in Helheim, along with most of the other dead. We can access our ancestors, can't we? Othinn accessed the Volva, didn't he? Our access to the dead is largely controlled by Hella and whether or not she wants to let you disturb them, but they aren't locked away where you can never see or speak to them again. We have a long and rich tradition of communion with the dead in the Northern faiths... both in the Lore and in recent and ongoing modern experience.

Also as a side note, how inevitable do people view Ragnarok? Would it really be all Loki's doing?

Ragnarok is not Loki's doing. Ragnarok is Ragnarok and Loki is just one of many players... pawns of fate, you could say. Ragnarok is inevitable in that the Nornir have put their feet down pretty heavily about this one... there is no stopping it. But I think there is delaying and changing and influencing it, which is what Othinn spends a LOT of time trying to do.

Whether it has already happened or not... we have to remember that Ragnarok is the doom of the GODS... it is the fate of the Nine Worlds... not Thisworld. It doesn't directly affect us here on Earth one way or the other. And if the Nine Worlds is another dimension (plane of existence) and if time is not a linear construct... then the answer is that we do not and can not possibly know the answer to that. When we interface with the Nine Worlds and the gods are we accessing a directly parallel timeline? And if that's the case, what's been happening there for the last several hundred years? The Prose Edda was written in the 1200's... so have the gods just been sitting around twiddling their thumbs for last 800 years? I highly doubt that. I believe that time is not linear and that when we interface with the Otherworlds (any of them) we are reaching back and forth through non linear 'time' in a way that we will probably never be able to quantify. So in that sense... Ragnarok has been, will be, is being right now... and either way, it's actually their problem, not ours. But I don't believe that it will/has negatively affected our interfacing with the gods and the Nine Worlds, because time is not linear. So even if Ragnarok happens tomorrow, we will still be able to access our gods and interface with the Nine Worlds because we can just reach back to a time before Ragnarok happened.

[SilverShadow]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

If Othinn had not betrayed Fenrir (yes, I know that it was Tyr who did the deed, but Othinn was the driving force behind it) would Fenrir choose someone else to go after at Ragnarok? So you can see it's a complex thing.

I particularly like this question!

I, personally, think that the fact that the Fenrir Wolf didn't go after Tyr come Ragnarok (though there is another wolf that devours him I think) is a really interesting part of the story. Maybe it's because Tyr has already lost his hand to the wolf, so his debt is paid, maybe it's because the wolf understands that Tyr was just doing what was expected, in order to keep balance.

That's just my personal musings.....

[Thorbjorn]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

Blodsbroder and Thorbjorn, I've removed the color formatting from your posts. We stick with automatic around here, unless it is a moderator or admin post, green and red respectively. Anything else can be hard to read, depending on the background the person is using. Automatic changes according to the background. Please refrain from using colored font in the future.

No, problem... I don't even remember what I highlighted or colored, or why. But I'll remember this. Thanks.

[Ula]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

I've been looking into Asatru tradition recently and I'm enjoying reading about it, though I'm still new to many aspects. I recently read into Loki's lore a bit and it led to a few questions.

The Lokesenna lore states from what I understand that as a result of Baldur's death, Loki is bound beneath to a serpent whose venom causes him great pain from now until Ragnarok, doesn't this mean he's impossible to approach/seek as he's essentially imprisoned?

I'm taking the Edda and history of the gods fairly literally in my research and this turned me away slightly, I want to know what people think; with everything destined to happen to the Gods now and at Ragnarok are the Gods following a set course? Are Loki and Baldur unapproachable or are the Gods less affected by time and this destiny?
Also as a side note, how inevitable do people view Ragnarok? Would it really be all Loki's doing?

Hopefully you guys understand the questions, I can't really phrase them in a way that makes perfect sense >.<

You got some pretty great answers but I will add this. Many people today work with Loki so bond or not he has a way of contacting people. There are some who even say they have had contact with Fenrir. I think that on the astral there are ways of doing things that aren't limited by the physical. If we can work with our ancestors we can work with Baldr, he is just another one of the dead. I have always viewed myth as myth. It can be all sorts of things maybe even literal. I think the Norse creation story has a lot of science in it but only if you don't take it literally. Eventually suns explode and systems die, even our own. Saying a wolf will eat the sun is about the same thing to me. I don't think it's any one gods doing, fate is a tricky thing in the practice. It's one of those things it's fun to question but we will not know until later if at all.

[Amadi]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

Yeah, thanks a bunch for all the replies btw guys, honestly they're helping a lot!
I must say I didn't know a lot about Helheim until I read about it (after I posted the question) but even then it didn't leap out at me that it's a possibility :S, I've got a lot more to read up on xP

Thanks again! ;P

[Rae'ya]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

No, problem... I don't even remember what I highlighted or colored, or why. But I'll remember this. Thanks.

Do you cut and paste your answers from a word processor or something? I use the 'Mint' theme (black background, white text, green headers bars etc) and sometimes your posts come out as black text that I have to highlight to read. Sometimes it's just part of your posts and will stop mid-sentence! I've seen that happen before with people who type answers in a word processor then cut and paste them. If that's the case then there's apparently a 'remove formatting' button in the posting box that will get rid of all the weird cut and pasted formatting glitches and make your whole post the 'default' color, size and font. Having said that I can never find it... but Corvus knows where it is because he's the person I saw posting about it. So if you need it ask him!

(Yeah I know... that wasn't terribly helpful! )

[SilverShadow]

Re: The Gods with time/destiny?

Do you cut and paste your answers from a word processor or something? I use the 'Mint' theme (black background, white text, green headers bars etc) and sometimes your posts come out as black text that I have to highlight to read. Sometimes it's just part of your posts and will stop mid-sentence! I've seen that happen before with people who type answers in a word processor then cut and paste them. If that's the case then there's apparently a 'remove formatting' button in the posting box that will get rid of all the weird cut and pasted formatting glitches and make your whole post the 'default' color, size and font. Having said that I can never find it... but Corvus knows where it is because he's the person I saw posting about it. So if you need it ask him!

(Yeah I know... that wasn't terribly helpful! )

Go to 'advanced'

In the formatting table you have above your reply, the option to remove formatting is in the top row, second from the left. It's just above the option to make a word Italic.


(Or, copy whatever you're writing into Notepad, copy it from there and then paste where you like. Notepad tends to take away the formatting issues).