PDA

View Full Version : The intersections between Paganism and the Vegan way of living.



Watchful Wanderer
24 Jun 2015, 12:44
Before I say anything, I recommend checking out the articles of C.S. MacCath. Just know that this is not a simple matter of only health and healing, but also of ethics.

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/gael-ur/the-vegan-pagan-introduction.html

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/gael-ur/the-vegan-pagan-interstice-the-first.html4

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/gael-ur/the-vegan-pagan-interstice-the-second.html

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/gael-ur/the-vegan-pagan-your-health.html

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/gael-ur/the-vegan-pagan-the-case-against-animal-sacrifice.html (I wouldn't take her quotes of Grandin seriously, as Grandin is dishonest and without sense.)

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/gael-ur/the-vegan-pagan-climate-change-and-food-equity.html

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/gael-ur/the-vegan-pagan-the-animals-themselves.html

Finished? Good. Here's hoping this thread will be civil.

Ever since switching to this way of living, I noticed I was having less sick days(don't get me wrong, I still have them, but not nearly as often and they tend to go away faster.)

Anyhow, feel free to share how you feel on the topic.

Jembru
24 Jun 2015, 14:48
Congrats on making this bold life choice! Just don't take the nutritional advice lightly, or you might not feel so healthy forever!

I was vegan for 6 years, and I would definitely do it again if my financial situation changed. I quit because in year 5 of veganism, I went mad. I mean, I actually became mentally ill. I started having delusions, seeing things, I was seeing my mediation world in this world and couldn't see where my imagination ended and reality began. I was a mess.

It turned out to be a severe vitamin deficiency (mainly B12). I was able to pay for the supplements and eat a good varied diet for another year, but then I moved to Japan. Eating a varied diet was very hard there. They add fish to everything. So I ended up having to relax my principles and eat dairy. When I returned to England, I never again had the disposable income to eat well as a vegan. I still keep dairy to a minimum, but I don't avoid it altogether, and I have eggs too.

When I was vegan, I never really considered it as part of my faith though. It may have been the same compassion for life that pushed me towards both, but they were separate. I don't agree that veganism makes one a better pagan, or more spiritually sound. I never felt I was somehow better than others for being vegan either. I just felt that for me personally, it was the right thing to do. I'm not actually against eating meat or dairy, but I don't like our modern farming methods. I understand why we treat animals the way we do, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. So I choose to play no part of it. Besides my cat of course. Vegetarian, vegan or not, I'd never dream of denying my cat her natural diet!

- - - Updated - - -

Or was that year 4... It's been so long now I can't remember...

Munin-Hugin
24 Jun 2015, 14:57
Folks that force their animals to eat "vegan" or "vegetarian" diets when the critters are naturally carnivores borderlines on animal cruelty.

As for vegans and pagans, if it works for you, great, but like Jembru said - being one doesn't make you "better" at the other. In fact, this sort of thing makes me irate and gets my hackles up. I would never dream of telling you what to ingest, so keep your damn ideas off my plate. Personally, I get cravings for meat, and if I go too long without I in fact start to feel rather sluggish and ill. You may say that it's just the proteins and the vitamins that I'm missing, but I would disagree. It feels like it's much more than that. I suppose that may seem a little creepy and bordering along the concept of zoophagia and life force consumption, but there it is. Munching on mung beans and spinach may make one person feel empowered and righteous, while gnawing on a rack of ribs makes me feel satisfied and energized (after the food coma from eating too much, of course).

Try telling Thor that he's got to stop making a feast out of Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr every once in a while and resurrecting them in the morning, and has to go forage around for nuts, berries, and tofu.

Jembru
24 Jun 2015, 15:53
Even without having eaten meat since I was 6 years old, I can actually imagine the feeling you're describing. I can't feel the same 'full' feeling from bean-based protein alone. I have to eat something containing fat with it. When I was vegan, I would eat beans on toast almost every day, with olive oil spread (dunno what I'd do now come to think of it, because I won't have hydrogenated fats now.. hmm..). That was the most filling meal for me. It's a complete protein, so probably comparable to meat. So I think I know the feeling you're describing!

You know, of course people are going to feel defensive if they feel they're being told what to eat. What annoys me though, is when people get defensive with me just for being vegetarian. Like the opposite situation. They'll start lecturing me on why it's okay to eat meat. I was once quite aggressively attacked at a training day for work, because someone noticed I wasn't eating meat so asked if I was vegetarian. He was arguing with things I hadn't even said. Like 'people like you say... But you know what I say to that...' It was real bullcrap. I ended it though, by explaining that 'yes, it IS okay that you choose to eat meat. It sounds to me like you need to convince yourself that. Why else would you feel compelled to defend your choice to someone who doesn't care what you eat, and never asked for your opinion?' I just figure, if their conscience was clear, they'd be quite happy to live and let live (probably a bad phrase to use, lol). I guess some people might feel that I'm judging them, but I'm not. I'm most likely worrying about what they're thinking about my weird shaped face, sunken eyes and misshapen thighs...

Watchful Wanderer
24 Jun 2015, 15:55
Folks that force their animals to eat "vegan" or "vegetarian" diets when the critters are naturally carnivores borderlines on animal cruelty.

As for vegans and pagans, if it works for you, great, but like Jembru said - being one doesn't make you "better" at the other. In fact, this sort of thing makes me irate and gets my hackles up. I would never dream of telling you what to ingest, so keep your damn ideas off my plate. Personally, I get cravings for meat, and if I go too long without I in fact start to feel rather sluggish and ill. You may say that it's just the proteins and the vitamins that I'm missing, but I would disagree. It feels like it's much more than that. I suppose that may seem a little creepy and bordering along the concept of zoophagia and life force consumption, but there it is. Munching on mung beans and spinach may make one person feel empowered and righteous, while gnawing on a rack of ribs makes me feel satisfied and energized (after the food coma from eating too much, of course).

Try telling Thor that he's got to stop making a feast out of Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr every once in a while and resurrecting them in the morning, and has to go forage around for nuts, berries, and tofu.

What implies that one who is vegan would be "better" than one who is not? There is nothing wrong with one showing something as rare among humans as compassion and ethical decency, especially when considered their decisions would effect the lives of other beings.

There's the fact that humans just don't have any carnivorous instincts or anatomy(our "canine" teeth are for biting into fruits and nuts, as their shape and length attest to.) and we can't digest meat or eggs properly without it hurting us(doesn't matter if its raw or cooked.)

I think most(if not all of us here) know what happens in the concentration camps the meat industry sets up, you've probably seen the undercover footage before, so I don't think I need to go into it, needless to say, it would make an eternity in Tartarus seem pleasant.

As for dairy, well first off, its common knowledge that for a mother only lactates during and after pregnancy. In the dairy industry, cows are raped to impregnate them, and right after she gives birth, her child is taken from her. Can't have a calf drinking all that breast milk that was meant for them, when they could give it to you instead right? The calf, if a bull/male will likely be sold as veal, this is done by putting him in a crate where he can't even move(otherwise his corpse would be less tender) and giving him steroids to fatten him up. If the calf is a cow/female, she meets the same fate as her mother. So, the meat and dairy industry is guilty of mass genocide, sexual abuse and child abuse. We haven't even discussed the egg industry yet


P.S. I do live with two felines, both hunt their own prey and I do feed them meat(pretty much the only ones allowed to have it because(unlike humans) species that are obligate carnivores have a justification. Carnivores in the wild only go after the weak or sick members of a herd, preventing overpopulation in the long run. Which species is suffering the most from overpopulation? Humans.)

Jembru
24 Jun 2015, 16:01
No one has said there is anything wrong with your choice. Just that veganism and paganism don't go hand in hand.

Munin-Hugin
24 Jun 2015, 18:10
What implies that one who is vegan would be "better" than one who is not? There is nothing wrong with one showing something as rare among humans as compassion and ethical decency, especially when considered their decisions would effect the lives of other beings.

There's the fact that humans just don't have any carnivorous instincts or anatomy(our "canine" teeth are for biting into fruits and nuts, as their shape and length attest to.) and we can't digest meat or eggs properly without it hurting us(doesn't matter if its raw or cooked.)

I think most(if not all of us here) know what happens in the concentration camps the meat industry sets up, you've probably seen the undercover footage before, so I don't think I need to go into it, needless to say, it would make an eternity in Tartarus seem pleasant.

As for dairy, well first off, its common knowledge that for a mother only lactates during and after pregnancy. In the dairy industry, cows are raped to impregnate them, and right after she gives birth, her child is taken from her. Can't have a calf drinking all that breast milk that was meant for them, when they could give it to you instead right? The calf, if a bull/male will likely be sold as veal, this is done by putting him in a crate where he can't even move(otherwise his corpse would be less tender) and giving him steroids to fatten him up. If the calf is a cow/female, she meets the same fate as her mother. So, the meat and dairy industry is guilty of mass genocide, sexual abuse and child abuse. We haven't even discussed the egg industry yet


P.S. I do live with two felines, both hunt their own prey and I do feed them meat(pretty much the only ones allowed to have it because(unlike humans) species that are obligate carnivores have a justification. Carnivores in the wild only go after the weak or sick members of a herd, preventing overpopulation in the long run. Which species is suffering the most from overpopulation? Humans.)

This. All of this is why I get pissed off. The preaching, the rambling on and on about how we aren't supposed to eat meat, how he treat our meat horribly, blah blah blah. It's the whole holier-than-thou attitude that you're a "better" human being and a more "ethical" person because you avoid animal by-products. I take offense that you pretty much said I was not an ethical or decent being because I enjoy flesh, cooked or otherwise. Screw that noise. Especially after I had just commented that that was the exact crap that makes me want to punch baby cows. Then eat them with a nice marsala sauce. Maybe I'll make you happy and add some mushrooms to it. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go THOROUGHLY enjoy my double cheeseburger with extra bacon.

- - - Updated - - -

I apologize for the double post, but I came across this and figured that it would be worth sharing, as it discusses many of the things that had been brought up already (health, digestion, nutrition).

http://authoritynutrition.com/7-evidence-based-health-reasons-to-eat-meat/

As things seemed a bit derailed right off the bat, here's something else I'd like to add.

Not all pagans view the eating of meat or the killing of animals as a bad thing. It is not ethically wrong to do so. While the way the raising and slaughter is done has changed, pagans across the centuries have supported the growth of beasts solely for the purpose of consumption. I suppose it could be greatly stretched to say that specific types of pagans could be considered "better" pagans by being vegan, but that relies upon specific beliefs and becomes a religious choice that only applies to that brand of paganism. To make a blanket statement that"vegan = better pagan" is rather narrow minded.

Medusa
24 Jun 2015, 18:13
There's the fact that humans just don't have any carnivorous instincts or anatomy(our "canine" teeth are for biting into fruits and nuts, as their shape and length attest to.) and we can't digest meat or eggs properly without it hurting us(doesn't matter if its raw or cooked.)
How have I been eating all this meat my whole life? Thank you for letting me know what my mouth is incapable of doing.

Jembru
24 Jun 2015, 18:47
How have I been eating all this meat my whole life? Thank you for letting me know what my mouth is incapable of doing.

lol!

See.. it's actually true. Our ancestors didn't eat meat. We didn't eat a purely vegan diet either though. Saying as we probably couldn't have found all the essential amino acids we need, or the B vitamins we seem to go loopy without, we almost certainly ate bugs. Lovely, crunchy protein rich bugs. Eating uncooked meat would be harmful to us now, and would have been fatal for sure in the past. Yet bugs are just as fine uncooked as they are roasted!

That was then.. the glory days. We've since learnt to cook meat, and lost our taste for wiggly crawly things (I know, it's a crying shame). We've adapted* (well.. you have at least. I dread to think what would happen if I started eating meat, as I doubt I have the right gut flora to cope with it), to make use of the rich resource that became available to us, and we were able to achieve great things as a result.

It's not a strong argument to point to our physicality as an argument for being vegan. The giant panda evolved from a carnivore, so it has a short intestinal tract, unlike we omnivores who have a longer one because it takes longer to break down plant material and thus absorb the nutrients from it. This is why just to stay alive, it has to spend pretty much its entire waking life eating bamboo. It was a stupid idea nature.. you hear!!! Still, no one would suggest it stopped eating bamboo because it is so ill equipped to do so, would they?

Anyway, please lets not let this turn into another veggies v carnies. Please don't feel the need to justify your life style choices to me, or anyone else. If one wants to be vegan, they're free to do so.

And if you really want to be natural... EAT BUGS!!!!!

*that one's for you Thal ^^

Medusa
24 Jun 2015, 19:17
Corn is not meat. Yet for the life of me I poop it out whole.
Corn must be the devil.

anunitu
24 Jun 2015, 19:17
All I think is,veg is good,but so is burger with all the trimmings. If all I ever ate was meat,I might get sick,and I feel the same way about all VEGS,variety is the spice of life. So burger with tomato and lettuce,and onions too sometimes. I am an Omnivore,hear me roar!!!!!

Willow
24 Jun 2015, 19:18
I think it's great that you found a diet that works for you both physically and ethically. :) It's always a great feeling finding something that makes us feel great and helps our bodies and minds function in a healthier way.

While I respect everyone's right to choose to live the vegan dietary style if they're able to, I just really like bacon. But that's just me. :)

I'm also just going to throw this out there, not because I saw it touched upon earlier but for funsies, that I've talked to other friends about their dietary success stories regarding cutting something(s) out of their diet and it resulting in a better quality of life (fewer joint pains, digestion issues, headaches, mood swings, etc...). Not just cutting out meat, but gluten as well. It seems that a lot of people are starting to test out what does and doesn't work for their bodies recently (or more likely that people have been doing this for awhile and I'm only now hanging out with people who are experimenting with it themselves).

Medusa
24 Jun 2015, 19:21
Don't get me on the gluten train. Everyone and their nana suddenly is 'allergic' to gluten. Ask them what it is and they think 'wheat'. I feel bad for the people who really are allergic. I mean do you need to say gluten free shampoo? Or that water is gluten free? Give me a break. How come homeless people or people in third world countries don't have these 'allergies'?

(takes down my soap box. I spot the sniper!):;):

Willow
24 Jun 2015, 19:23
I refuse to be anti-anything; mostly because I don't think I could give up bread or cheese...

Hmm... cheese sticks...:;)::;):

Medusa
24 Jun 2015, 19:24
Also. Did you know a woman can lactate without ever having been pregnant?

Finally all that porn comes in handy.

anunitu
24 Jun 2015, 19:25
I am still not clear on just what Gluten is,I hear and read about it,but still I have no idea what exactly it is...also what the heck are trans fats?????

Medusa
24 Jun 2015, 19:26
also what the heck are trans fats?????

fats that have decided to wear skirts and lipstick instead of pants and mustaches.

anunitu
24 Jun 2015, 19:30
Thank you so much for that image Duce,its not like my mind is a nightmare to other people already....

Willow
24 Jun 2015, 19:35
fats that have decided to wear skirts and lipstick instead of pants and mustaches.

Lol. Ah the human body is a strange thing indeed. Apparently trans fats are more complex than I had originally thought too.

Jembru
24 Jun 2015, 19:53
Don't get me on the gluten train. Everyone and their nana suddenly is 'allergic' to gluten. Ask them what it is and they think 'wheat'. I feel bad for the people who really are allergic. I mean do you need to say gluten free shampoo? Or that water is gluten free? Give me a break. How come homeless people or people in third world countries don't have these 'allergies'?

(takes down my soap box. I spot the sniper!):;):

Haven't you seen South Park?? Gluten is dangerous stuff dude!

They covered it on a series called 'Rip off Britain, food'. Apparently unless you are a genuine celiac, opting for gluten free foods can actually be less healthy than just having the gluten!

My beef with diet fads (sorry.. there I go again with my poor choice of words..), is with white rice. There is nothing at all wrong with it. I wish people would stop saying I have to eat only brown rice to be healthy. Sure, there's a bit more fiber and nutrition, but as part of a balanced meal, white rice is fantastically good for you.

But.. I'm just going off topic now..

Norse_Angel
24 Jun 2015, 20:01
My parents follow a paleo diet. My father has lost 20 lbs in the last year, my mom lost around 60-75. Paleo is removing any gluten products from your diet. They seem a lot healthier and the numbers show.

Rae'ya
24 Jun 2015, 20:11
Are we seriously having this debate AGAIN?

I gotta be honest and say that I really can't be bothered pulling out my death-is-a-part-of-my-spirituality speech yet again, nor my I-can't-physically-be-healthy-without-animal-protein speech. So here's the short version...

I need animal protein to survive in a healthy state. I have medically diagnosed issues that preclude me from being healthy on a vegan diet. This completely ruins the 'humans aren't designed for meat eating' argument in respects to my personal situation. I'll never be healthy without meat.

My spirituality includes a very profound respect for life and death. For ALL life, not just the animals. I've waxed lyrical about this in a number of threads.

If you want to argue ethics, lets talk about the loss of life and environmental impact of the agricultural industry. Let's talk about unethically sourced palm oil. Let's talk about pesticides. Let's talk about monocrops. If you want to use emotionally charged words like 'rape' and 'child abuse', let's talk about the rape and abuse of the land.

I hate the meat industry. I hate the egg industry. I've seen these things first hand and I know exactly what happens. But I also hate the agricultural industry and know exactly what happens there. I am under no illusions about where my food and consumable products come from.

And I understand that being an ethical person is NOT about swapping one unethical practice for another and deluding myself about the realities of my choices.

I respect other people's lifestyle choices. I don't care what any of you eat. But I do not respect being told that I am an unethical person because I eat meat. And I find it very difficult to respect poorly researched and biased arguments supporting that statement.



(And yes, that was the short and snippy version... most of you have seen the long and diplomatic version far too many times).

Juniper
24 Jun 2015, 20:12
I read the first 4 links in the OP, but the last 3, I just couldn't. Eyes kept crossing over each other...

I really don't care for all the vegan diet this and vegan diet that BS that we've covered a million times on this forum - and all the threads end up the same, so let's just cut the shit and stop arguing about Vegetarians vs Carnivores. (Yup, I went red)

What I do want to read more about is how Veganism affects people's spiritual lives. And, (Watchful Wanderer, please correct me if I'm wrong but...) that is what I believe the intent of this topic is about. I'd like to hear more about your experience. I'm not vegan so I don't know how to relate to your point of view.

Watchful Wanderer
24 Jun 2015, 22:45
I refuse to be anti-anything; mostly because I don't think I could give up bread or cheese...

Hmm... cheese sticks...:;)::;):

Easy fix:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnyTZJ9tTsw

(And yes, I have cooked and tried this, its pretty delicious.

http://pixellant.com/adaptt/humans-herbivores/

Also, Paleo is just the standard American diet, no difference. I just find it hilarious that people are treating it as if it was different.

Also, for those that can't handle straight forward bluntness or the lack of bulls**t sugercoating of words, leave now. Because any sugercoating or lip service shan't be uttered by me, nothing but honesty, no matter how much it hurts to hear.

Also, getting a kick from some of the things said here.

thalassa
25 Jun 2015, 03:01
Are we seriously having this debate AGAIN?

I gotta be honest and say that I really can't be bothered pulling out my death-is-a-part-of-my-spirituality speech yet again, nor my I-can't-physically-be-healthy-without-animal-protein speech. So here's the short version...

I need animal protein to survive in a healthy state. I have medically diagnosed issues that preclude me from being healthy on a vegan diet. This completely ruins the 'humans aren't designed for meat eating' argument in respects to my personal situation. I'll never be healthy without meat.

My spirituality includes a very profound respect for life and death. For ALL life, not just the animals. I've waxed lyrical about this in a number of threads.

If you want to argue ethics, lets talk about the loss of life and environmental impact of the agricultural industry. Let's talk about unethically sourced palm oil. Let's talk about pesticides. Let's talk about monocrops. If you want to use emotionally charged words like 'rape' and 'child abuse', let's talk about the rape and abuse of the land.

I hate the meat industry. I hate the egg industry. I've seen these things first hand and I know exactly what happens. But I also hate the agricultural industry and know exactly what happens there. I am under no illusions about where my food and consumable products come from.

And I understand that being an ethical person is NOT about swapping one unethical practice for another and deluding myself about the realities of my choices.

I respect other people's lifestyle choices. I don't care what any of you eat. But I do not respect being told that I am an unethical person because I eat meat. And I find it very difficult to respect poorly researched and biased arguments supporting that statement.



(And yes, that was the short and snippy version... most of you have seen the long and diplomatic version far too many times).


This.

I don't give 2 piles of steaming dog poo what (universal) you ingest (or don't) or the reasons for why you do or don't or what buzz or spiritual fulfillment (universal) you get from it. With the exception of being a cannibal. I expect you to have that same regard for what I ingest. If you don't, I seriously question your priorities and your sanity.


If you feel that being a vegan makes you a better Pagan, a better person, or whatever...fine, good for you for finding somethng that fulfills you. Go for it, but don't assume that it is going to fulfill me. And don't assume that I don't "know better" or understand your POV (I understand it just fine, and I disagree). Being a vegan makes me sick. Physically ill. So did being a vegetarian after a while. And I would know because I was one for about 8 years. And I did it very healthfully, with the assistance of a nutritionist who was also a vegetarian.

I've found that I actually like the occasional steak. I find that ethically a-ok. Infact, I find that it enriches my beliefs as a Pagan--"give life with humility, take life with compassion" being one of my centeral tenets. I get my meat from a lovely local and sustainable Quiverfull family (I may not like their beliefs, but their spicy breakfast sausages are delicious...as are their duck eggs and fresh mozarella cheese). I find it spiritually inspiring to be able to thank them, and the lives of their farm animals for sustenance, and to use my money to support local farming.

TBH, there is not much I find more uninspiring within the Pagan community than the strong tendency to over-romanticize Nature and overly villify humanity, which operates on the same principles of nature.


Also...because bad science does more damage to the world than meat eating--for the ever loving gods, please people, stop applying human agency to other animals. This is about dolphins, but it applies to lactating cows too (http://www.realclearscience.com/2013/06/17/dolphin_039rape039_isn039t_rape_253545.html). It would also be nice is people would do some research into the evolution of early man and stop with the "this is what early man did" so its "more natural" (or whatever) propaganda (and this comes from both "sides").

Shahaku
25 Jun 2015, 03:38
WatchfulWanderer has been banned from this thread for violation of Juni's red. Direct disregard of an administrators direction is grounds for removal from a thread. Any questions? Please direct them to Juni or I.

anunitu
25 Jun 2015, 07:59
I am good with every ones choices as far as food is concerned. Live and let live,and remember,if you do not have something nice to say,then quiet is the best option.

volcaniclastic
25 Jun 2015, 10:24
I am a vegetarian, but it has no bearing on my spirituality. In fact, I feel the opposite. Should I consume meat, I feel it would bring me closer to nature and closer to the earth, because I would be physically consuming the earth, to a greater extent than I do now.

But I don't. Because meat tastes bad (for the most part).

anunitu
25 Jun 2015, 10:55
I eat meat,but not all that much. I seldom eat beef,mainly chicken and pork. Beef to me is to "Heavy" and I believe it takes more time to digest. I like potatoes and cornflower,and broccoli to,not much for carrots,but Bananas I like,most fruit. cereal(bran flakes,with raisin or not) dairy,mainly creamer for coffee,and milk for cereal. some chocolate but not a lot,coco to drink at times. So kinda a balanced diet..I do not do McDonald(once or twice a year if I am out and need to eat)

Jembru
25 Jun 2015, 11:00
Also...because bad science does more damage to the world than meat eating--for the ever loving gods, please people, stop applying human agency to other animals. This is about dolphins, but it applies to lactating cows too (http://www.realclearscience.com/2013/06/17/dolphin_039rape039_isn039t_rape_253545.html). It would also be nice is people would do some research into the evolution of early man and stop with the "this is what early man did" so its "more natural" (or whatever) propaganda (and this comes from both "sides").

Were you including my panda example in there? If so, I was just being p*ssy about the 'we don't naturally eat meat' thing. I was trying to illustrate that just because a species evolved from an earlier ancestor, it doesn't mean we have to all climb back into the trees.

As for 'our ancestors', that really depends on what the person speaking means. Lets assume that we all accept now that Australopithecus afarensis IS the common ancestor of all hominid species (it was still contested when I was at uni, and the only core textbook I didn't sell after graduation is Wallace, Sanders and Ferl, and that was already 5 years old when I was at uni, but the evidence was quite compelling even then). Then something must have happened in her evolutionary past that made selecting for upright locomotion necessary. It wasn't 'lets walk on 2 legs because then we can make tools and go hunt us an antelope', evolution doesn't work like that. There are of course still many theories, but I'm keen on the aquatic ape hypothesis' (https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Aquatic_ape_hypothesis), because it would have been pushed by an immediate need, and then allow traits for better and better upright posture to be selected for. If this is what happened, then they most likely entered the water in search of shellfish and insect larvae (probably not fish because we never seem to have had the same pointed and elongated canine teeth you see in modern chimps). If so, then surely our ancestors didn't just jump from berries to shellfish. They were surely already eating small invertebrates if they looked into the water and thought.. 'I could totally eat that'. So I do believe I can back up my opinion that before we had fire, which of course changed everything, we were likely eating bugs. Even if the aquatic ape hypothesis is rubbish, to have started using tools and eventually fire, we had to be feeding our brains on a richer energy source than plant matter, so I still say bugs all the way.

That said, while it is argued that we didn't have the anatomy to handle a raw meat diet, I'm sure Bear Grills would beg to differ (I'd post an amusing video* here, but saying as it shows Bear killing a pig and eating a raw pork chop, I think it would be in very poor taste in a vegan thread.. I'd have been in a worse state than that pig by the time they'd finished with me).

I thought about making this into a separate thread but wasn't sure if it would just offer a pathway for the 'why vegans/meat eaters suck' conversation to migrate. Feel free to move this if you prefer though.

*wait wait.. I'm not saying the pig part is amusing.. killing pigs, even for food, isn't a laughing matter.. I meant the video generally.. phew. That was close..

thalassa
25 Jun 2015, 13:16
Were you including my panda example in there? If so, I was just being p*ssy about the 'we don't naturally eat meat' thing. I was trying to illustrate that just because a species evolved from an earlier ancestor, it doesn't mean we have to all climb back into the trees.

It was the cow rape comment. Non-human animals can't rape. Rape implies the ability to conceptualize consent. They can do things that our narrow minded humanness would consider looked like rape if we applied it to ourselves, but cows can't get raped. Sure, they can be the recipient of what is possibly unwanted sex, but since there's no way to conceptualize cow desire, that's a bit of a moot point too.

Except I was at work and didn't want to type "rape" 50 times and put myself on a watchlist, lol.



As for evolution and ancestry, for the past 80,000 years or so, we have evolved and adapted to find whatever calories we can in whatever environment we come from--for at least the past 10,000 of them, we've been able to domesticate many of those forms of nutrition...these two things in concert are part of what makes our cultures and part of what drives our cultural evolution as well. Heck, there are several groups of humans that have had almost entirely carnivorous diets (http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/all-meat-diets/) without out problems...and I'm willing to bet that before missionaries, their spirituality and their diet had quite a bit in common. After all, one of my favorite goddesses created marine mammals from her body to feed her people...

Sean R. R.
25 Jun 2015, 13:46
What I eat has little impact on my spirituality personally. I have omnivorous friends, I have vegan friends, and my current love interest is vegan herself. She's a pagan and her diet does have an impact on her spirituality.

So I guess it can be important for some, as for others it is irrelevant, at a spiritual level.

And morality and ethics are something personal and subjective so...

Jembru
25 Jun 2015, 13:49
I assumed it was the cow rape thing, but I thought I'd clarify just in case. I wish I could remember more that I learnt at uni. I did a module in my second year that shared some practical classes with the anthropologists (mainly physiology). It was so interesting to look at skulls and pelvises from various stages of our evolution, comparing them to modern apes and speculating on what these differences tell us. I remember so little now though. I've been thinking about reading my old textbook through again to refresh my memory. I never used my degree, and if I can't even remember what I learnt there, what were those 3 years for?

DanieMarie
25 Jun 2015, 14:03
No one has said there is anything wrong with your choice. Just that veganism and paganism don't go hand in hand.

Yep, exactly. It's a great choice and I think that if you want to live a compassionate, sustainable lifestyle, it's a great way to do it. However, it's not the -only- way to do it :)

Shahaku
25 Jun 2015, 18:11
My girlfriend is vegan, and that is partially due to her religion. She also strongly believes in the health benefits. But even beyond that she believes that as a Wiccan she is responsible to do her part in trying to save the environment and in being a compassionate human being. Both of which she feel are strongly represented by being vegan. It takes a significant amount of agriculture to support livestock, much of which could go into growing vegetables we could eat if our meat consumption was less. Livestock also have a significant impact on the environment that would be reduced significantly if we reduced our consumption. Hence, the environment. And compassion? Well the livestock industry is about as far from compassion as you can get. So, for her, being vegan has always been tightly tied to her religion.

DanieMarie
26 Jun 2015, 06:48
My girlfriend is vegan, and that is partially due to her religion. She also strongly believes in the health benefits. But even beyond that she believes that as a Wiccan she is responsible to do her part in trying to save the environment and in being a compassionate human being. Both of which she feel are strongly represented by being vegan. It takes a significant amount of agriculture to support livestock, much of which could go into growing vegetables we could eat if our meat consumption was less. Livestock also have a significant impact on the environment that would be reduced significantly if we reduced our consumption. Hence, the environment. And compassion? Well the livestock industry is about as far from compassion as you can get. So, for her, being vegan has always been tightly tied to her religion.

Exactly. I can see why people choose it and I think that if that's how you feel, both in terms of values and spirituality, it really makes sense.

I do think there are other ways to get to the same point, though. Some people might interpret respecting the earth and compassion as going vegan. Others might choose to buy secondhand or reduce/reuse/recycle and buy sustainable, free-range meat, eggs, and dairy. I really dislike how much both sides argue with each other, because it really shouldn't be about "sides" at all. Compassion and respect for the earth can come in many different forms.

Willow
26 Jun 2015, 07:22
I turn off the computer for most of 3 days and the threads explode...

I'm still not giving up cheese or bread. :P Because I don't want to. It does kind of boggle my mind how many of these vegetarianism/vegan threads pop up though.

Anywho, I think I'm going to bow out now since diets aren't really my forte. :)

thalassa
26 Jun 2015, 07:38
I do think there are other ways to get to the same point, though. Some people might interpret respecting the earth and compassion as going vegan. Others might choose to buy secondhand or reduce/reuse/recycle and buy sustainable, free-range meat, eggs, and dairy. I really dislike how much both sides argue with each other, because it really shouldn't be about "sides" at all. Compassion and respect for the earth can come in many different forms.

This.

I mean, I could be all "if you buy products with diposable plastics you are an immoral person and a bad Pagan" but that would just make me a jerk. And I'm pretty sure that the accumulated environmental damage of disposable plastics is worse that eating meat.

Its not about being a vegan or vegetarian, its about being a lessatarian.

Munin-Hugin
26 Jun 2015, 08:09
The biggest issue I have with these sorts of things is how folks are quite ready to keep throwing around the words "compassion" and "compassionate". There seems to be a trend, in general and in this thread, unfortunately. It very much gives the impression that if you are a meat eater, you have none and you are not, respectively. I've known vegans and vegetarians who will actively verbally attack and attempt to belittle those that do not eat as they do. Is that compassion? And I've known omnivorous folks who spend all of their time helping those less fortunate and work in animal rescue facilities. So is their compassion simply negated because they like steak?

anunitu
26 Jun 2015, 08:11
It is hard in this day and age to have any control of things. Yes you can not buy things with plastic,IF you can find them and they are within your budget. The ones that should be doing this are the manufacturers who package them with out driving the price up so high. The extra cost could be the company's "Tithe" to the environment,to help humans survive. Kinda a nature tax..:cool:

DanieMarie
26 Jun 2015, 10:42
The biggest issue I have with these sorts of things is how folks are quite ready to keep throwing around the words "compassion" and "compassionate". There seems to be a trend, in general and in this thread, unfortunately. It very much gives the impression that if you are a meat eater, you have none and you are not, respectively. I've known vegans and vegetarians who will actively verbally attack and attempt to belittle those that do not eat as they do. Is that compassion? And I've known omnivorous folks who spend all of their time helping those less fortunate and work in animal rescue facilities. So is their compassion simply negated because they like steak?

A few of us who have used the word in this thread -are- omnivores....

I am an omnivore. I'll still use that word in terms of vegans and vegetarians, because from personal experience, that's why most of them chose their diets. Compassion is also a big part of my spiritual practice, but I have different ways of making it a part of my life.