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Bartmanhomer
18 Mar 2016, 16:04
Here's a few things that are racist: Klu Klux Clan, Confederate Flag, Lawn Jockey and Blackface. That's all the things I know that are racist. These things represent the prejudice and ignorance of history. If anybody knows anything else which is racist, post on this thread here.

Denarius
18 Mar 2016, 19:09
The confederate flag has no more of a history of racism than the US flag. The confederate flag didn't fly over Japanese-American internment camps, and the US flag did.

Here is a complete, unabridged list of literally everything in the universe that is racist: Racists.

End of list.

B. de Corbin
18 Mar 2016, 19:15
KKK is worse than racicist, if that is possible.

My grandfather had a cross burned in his yard by the KKK because he was Catholic.

Racists are not bad just because they are racist. Racists are bad because they make hatred into a virtue, and, when that happens, anybody and everybody eventually becomes a target.

Hatred is not a good thing, no matter in which direction it is aimed.

habbalah
18 Mar 2016, 20:05
I'll take "can of worms" for $200, Alex.

ThePaganMafia
18 Mar 2016, 20:20
I am not a fan of the Confederate flag but I found the public outcry against it to generally more misplaced liberal outrage about something that isn't going to solve any problems. The outcry against the Confederate Flag was far greater than any outcry about conditions in the South like poverty, education, or actual racism. Of course if Southerners quit holding onto symbols of the Confederacy and decide to join the 21st Century it would help a lot to.

monsno_leedra
18 Mar 2016, 21:36
I am not a fan of the Confederate flag but I found the public outcry against it to generally more misplaced liberal outrage about something that isn't going to solve any problems. The outcry against the Confederate Flag was far greater than any outcry about conditions in the South like poverty, education, or actual racism. Of course if Southerners quit holding onto symbols of the Confederacy and decide to join the 21st Century it would help a lot to.

Have to admit I always find it funny how people talk about the Confederate flag. As a culture many have tried to reclaim and re-purpose that flag. Yet everyone gets their arse in the air because of it. Yet no one has issues with trying to reclaim "Ni**er", Witch, Faggot and a thousand other words that have just as dark a history if not darker. Wonder how many would get their panties in a wad if people started pushing the Bonnie Blue Flag that wears a single star?

ThePaganMafia
18 Mar 2016, 21:44
I have never understood flags. People get really mad over flags. It's just a flag, man.

monsno_leedra
18 Mar 2016, 21:59
I have never understood flags. People get really mad over flags. It's just a flag, man.

Oh I don't disagree in that it is just a flag and that people get bent out of shape over them. For me personally it's just another symbol that part of my ancestry fought and died under as well as others who fought and died under the Union flag. As such its heritage and something reflective of their times and lives and the events that colored and influenced their world. Like the country, the whole issue split parts of my family in half as some fought for the state and some fought for the union. It's another symbol that denotes which ones are recognized as Sons of the Confederacy or Grand Army of the Republic (GAR). About the only thing for certain is a lot of men died for and under both those flags and very few of them did it to end slavery or support slavery on either side.

Personally I think it's such an issue to the south because of the mindset and culture of service to the state that permeated so much of our upbringing. Family, lineage, heritage were and still are major factors in lots of things that tie family roots and branches together.

thalassa
19 Mar 2016, 05:21
You know what my problem with "the Conferderate flag" is?

ITS NOT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG.

It's the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

The Stars and Bars, the Stainless Banner (in 1863), the Bloodstained Banner (in 1865)---THOSE are the Confederate flags. And, they are flags of treason. Sorry, you lost.

The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, on the other hand (not to ignore the Bonnie Blue Flag, the Van Dorn battle flag, or the thousands of regimental flags). And as to what we should do with them, I think maybe we should follow the words of Robert E. Lee--both the ones we know he said, and the ones that have been attributed to him from that time period and are consistent to his carachter and POV:



My engagements will not permit me to be present, and I believe if there I could not add anything material to the information existing onthe subject. I think it wiser, moreover, not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the example of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered.

(on the subject of Confederate war memorials)

Fold it up and put it away.

(on the subject of the flag) (http://wluspectator.com/2014/07/15/cox-honoring-lee-anew/)




Or, perhaps, we should remember the words of Jefferson Davis:



My pride is that that flag shall not set between contending brothers; and that, when it shall no longer be the common flag of the country, it shall be folded up and laid away like a vesture no longer used.



But no, let's not follow the advice of the people that were THERE! Lets double down on something that WASN'T PART OF THE SOUTHERN CULTURE until Brown v. Board of Education. National flags simply did not have the same meaning or strength of symbolism as a regimental flag did during the CW era. There is no "Southern Pride" aspect to the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia that is historically valid.

DragonsFriend
19 Mar 2016, 06:50
Flags, all flags are a part of our history. They are reminders of people we are connected with who served with honor in struggles that need to be remembered so we don't repeat them in the future. I'm not going to fall into the "Civil War" trap and with a determination as to who was wronged or right in that war but if we don't learn to respect those who fought and died on both sides and the cause behind it we will be doomed to repeat that struggle in the future. The flags are a symbol of honor of the men who gave all that they had in battle. That's why they are important to people.

B. de Corbin
19 Mar 2016, 07:21
That's why I have so much respect for suicide terrorists. They give their all for a cause.

As Nietzsche pointed out in The Anti-Christ, there is nothing especially important about martyrs - it is just as easy to die for stupidity as it is for virtue.

DragonsFriend
19 Mar 2016, 07:33
Those who fought in the "civil" war were not terrorist suicide bombers. One has nothing to do with the other.

monsno_leedra
19 Mar 2016, 07:47
That's why I have so much respect for suicide terrorists. They give their all for a cause.

As Nietzsche pointed out in The Anti-Christ, there is nothing especially important about martyrs - it is just as easy to die for stupidity as it is for virtue.

Guess you don't know to much about the forced draft for both sides. Yeah, some probably entered the war from a screwed perspective but a great amount of them were drafted. For many it was both a draft and a sense of shame if you didn't.

B. de Corbin
19 Mar 2016, 07:56
Those who fought in the "civil" war were not terrorist suicide bombers. One has nothing to do with the other.

Respecting those who died for cause "A" has nothing to do with respecting those who died for cause "B"?

Strange...

You pretend to be so much more intelligent than that...

- - - Updated - - -


Guess you don't know to much about the forced draft for both sides. Yeah, some probably entered the war from a screwed perspective but a great amount of them were drafted. For many it was both a draft and a sense of shame if you didn't.

Yes, Monsno_leedra, I do know about that, and about how immegrants were drafted straight off the boat into one army or another, depending on where the boat landed.

I was responding to a statement about "those who gave their all in battle."

monsno_leedra
19 Mar 2016, 07:59
.. Yes, Monsno_leedra, I do know about that, and about how immegrants were drafted straight off the boat into one army or another, depending on where the boat landed.

I was responding to a statement about "those who gave their all in battle."

Ah understand now. I stand corrected, didn't connect the dots there,

thalassa
19 Mar 2016, 08:47
Flags, all flags are a part of our history.

Then use the right flag. Unless it's for a soldier the fought in the Army of Northern Virginia, fold it up and put it away.

monsno_leedra
19 Mar 2016, 10:10
Then use the right flag. Unless it's for a soldier the fought in the Army of Northern Virginia, fold it up and put it away.

For me it is the Army of Northern Virginia, CO D 34th Virginia Infantry and CO F 7th Virginia Infantry plus a few odds and ends as well as some of the Home Guard Regiments for the Confederacy. Union Jack for the Co M 3rd West Virginia Cavalry and a few others. But for me personally only use the flags when I connect them to the actual regiments or GAR & Sons of Confederacy and heritage.

thalassa
19 Mar 2016, 11:03
We do Civil War re-enacting, I'm the first person to admit there's a proper context for the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virgina. But that proper context is not on the bumper of most vehicles.

ThePaganMafia
19 Mar 2016, 11:47
I agree with context. The coat of arms of Mobile, Alabama has the flags of the five nations that has flown over the city. This includes the COnfederate Battle Flag, something I have never had a problem with but has been causing controversy literally.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZK-JrAYyKi80dJzTjoHVXxSYSbEjMAgOxoSksA0NDElUG1NNMpw

monsno_leedra
19 Mar 2016, 12:29
I agree with context. The coat of arms of Mobile, Alabama has the flags of the five nations that has flown over the city. This includes the COnfederate Battle Flag, something I have never had a problem with but has been causing controversy literally.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZK-JrAYyKi80dJzTjoHVXxSYSbEjMAgOxoSksA0NDElUG1NNMpw

Pensacola Florida has the same thing in that it's existed under the flag of five different nations. I recall when I was stationed there back in the mid 80's there would be talk now and then about removing a certain flag. From what I've read the battle flag flew there until 2000 when it was replaced with the Confederate flag or the so called Stars and bars flag vice the battle flag. http://www.americancivilwarstory.com/confederate-flag.html

Medusa
19 Mar 2016, 21:05
Flags, all flags are a part of our history. They are reminders of people we are connected with who served with honor in struggles that need to be remembered so we don't repeat them in the future. I'm not going to fall into the "Civil War" trap and with a determination as to who was wronged or right in that war but if we don't learn to respect those who fought and died on both sides and the cause behind it we will be doomed to repeat that struggle in the future. The flags are a symbol of honor of the men who gave all that they had in battle. That's why they are important to people.

yeah buuuuuuuuuuuut, you see the kind of people who are waving that flag? It doesn't mean that at all to them. It just means I'm a racist prick.

habbalah
19 Mar 2016, 22:59
Ah, hello worms. I knew you would show up.

DragonsFriend
20 Mar 2016, 10:22
How does anyone "know" what a flag means to another person? Do you stop people and ask them? While I was in Alabama I saw blacks flying the battle flag.

Just because a person or a group uses a flag for their own reasons doesn't mean I can't use it for different reasons. The Battle Flag stands for the independence and freedoms that were actually being fought for in the war between the states. It had nothing to do with slavery. The war was fought over economic freedom and states rights. Jefferson Davis had already freed all his slaves before the war ever became an issue, while the slave owners in the north kept theirs until after the war. I believe in the 10th amendment as well as all the others. It has always been the constitution that is the law of the land. If that ever changes then we are likely to end up in another "civil" war.

Medusa
20 Mar 2016, 10:28
How does anyone "know" what a flag means to another person? Do you stop people and ask them? While I was in Alabama I saw blacks flying the battle flag.


Don't be willfully obtuse. As a Mexican American, I've occasionally seen dumb asses with that flag as a motif on their ensemble wardrobe. And the words coming out of their mouths to me tell me exactly what that flag means to them. Duh.

A population of people from the OC (who are not from the south) are very keen on that look at times. Along with tats that tell you exactly what they are into. (whispers white pride brah):=I:

Sadly when a symbol is taken and turned into something of hate and far from its original purpose, well the cat's out of the bag. It's hard to put it back in.

DragonsFriend
20 Mar 2016, 10:40
Some pagans still use the Celtic cross after the Nazis used it as a reward for sevice to the motherland and called it the "Iron Cross". The swastika is still known as a symbol of healing and protection in spite of the Nazi uses.The "Star of David" is still used as a symbol of healing by non Jewish people. A symbol isn't racist, people are.

ThePaganMafia
20 Mar 2016, 10:53
I'm from Alabama. I have never seen a black person waving a Confederate Flag. I'm sure some have but you obviously have no clue what the general Southern African-Americans view of the flag. You almost seem willfully ignorant on the facts of anything. The Civil War was not your Libertarian wet dream of people fighting for their rights. Slavery was the integral part of the Southern economy and the issue the War centered around. Asuch as white folks try to remove black folks from the integral parts of our history the facts still remain facts: You got no clue.

anunitu
20 Mar 2016, 11:00
If you are a racist A**Hole,it is usually pretty clear even if you show no symbol(Just saying)

You will know them by their works..from some holy book or something.

MaskedOne
20 Mar 2016, 11:05
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/alexander-h-cornerstone.html?referrer=https://duckduckgo.com/?referrer=http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?7155-Brutal-Honesty-things-you-d-like-to-say-on-the-main-forum&p=216371

Alexander Stephens does a far better job condemning his own cause than I have the time or patience to. Symbols change over time and with different people but personally I have no use for any Confederate flag at this point in time.

monsno_leedra
20 Mar 2016, 11:13
I'm from Alabama. I have never seen a black person waving a Confederate Flag. I'm sure some have but you obviously have no clue what the general Southern African-Americans view of the flag. You almost seem willfully ignorant on the facts of anything. The Civil War was not your Libertarian wet dream of people fighting for their rights. Slavery was the integral part of the Southern economy and the issue the War centered around. Asuch as white folks try to remove black folks from the integral parts of our history the facts still remain facts: You got no clue.

Can't speak for Alabama but the problem of trying to lay it all upon white people is it ignores the very large percentage of the free black population that also owned slaves. While a percentage might be viewed as free blacks who owned their enslaved family there is a substantial amount that simply purchased and rented out blacks they owned. More than a few books have been written that address that aspect but as normal they tend to get "Forgotten" or "Ignored" in the hype to make it about white people owning black people. Even the US Census records tend to ignore the non-white as those persons of color and such were often part of other census holdings as are most of the tax books and property tax listings for people of color.

One book that is pretty highly recommended is BLACK SLAVEOWNERS Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860 by Larry Koger copy write 1958 ISBN 1-57003-037-5 University of South Carolina Press, Columbia, South Carolina

DragonsFriend
20 Mar 2016, 11:50
I'm from Alabama. I have never seen a black person waving a Confederate Flag. I'm sure some have but you obviously have no clue what the general Southern African-Americans view of the flag. You almost seem willfully ignorant on the facts of anything. The Civil War was not your Libertarian wet dream of people fighting for their rights. Slavery was the integral part of the Southern economy and the issue the War centered around. Asuch as white folks try to remove black folks from the integral parts of our history the facts still remain facts: You got no clue.

"Willfully ignorant" would imply that I have not studied the period before, during and after the war. I think you accept too readily the history taught by the victors and need to study more on the actual events leading up to, during and following the war. The proclamation that "freed" the slaves only applied to the states involved in the fight. It did not affect any states that did not fight and was made only long after the war was in play. The "cotton producing states" were required to sell their cotton for 10 cents a pound to the northern states and then resold to England for over $1 per pound but the producers were not allowed to sell directly to England by federal mandate. That is the reason the south wanted to be self governing.

Medusa
20 Mar 2016, 13:13
Some pagans still use the Celtic cross after the Nazis used it as a reward for sevice to the motherland and called it the "Iron Cross". The swastika is still known as a symbol of healing and protection in spite of the Nazi uses.The "Star of David" is still used as a symbol of healing by non Jewish people. A symbol isn't racist, people are.

So that Iron Cross is also used by dummies like Jesse James.
http://lillian.ejago.com/body-language-blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Nazi-James1.png
People like him have ruined the 'original purpose'. That cat is out of the bag, never to return to its owner.

The healing power of the swastika is know as a healing power symbol before the nazis ruined it. I give you that. But just show me how the majority of the people here in the US use that sign. Go on. I'll wait.

The star of David. First thing that pops in your head is the current majority use. I'ma Jew.

Again. The times have changed and racist people ruin symbols. It's sad. But I ain't detecting no lies.

Here in the US when you fly that flag, we know what you are saying. And when you get confronted, you then become an authorized historian of the civil war. Bull.

anunitu
20 Mar 2016, 13:16
Still not sure what Sandra B. saw in that guy....

Medusa
20 Mar 2016, 13:22
Still not sure what Sandra B. saw in that guy....

He's hot. Till he speaks. Then it's like David Beckham. You ever hear his voice?
Oh no honey. No no. Don't speak. Just be silent with your hobbit feet.:p

thalassa
20 Mar 2016, 13:28
I think that before anyone here keeps repeating bad history, that I'm sure they think is true and have heard repeated elsewhere, the need to stop and invest about a.year of their time to read either of Winthrop Jordan's books on the history of slavery in the US and every text he footnoted or referenced (most of which are primary sources). There's so much wrong here, I don't even know where to start.

Dumuzi
20 Mar 2016, 13:48
I'm just here to confess my love, passion and obsession with flags... I love flags! :D I like looking at them, designing them and talking about them. So this thread has been really interesting for me. Did you know the study of flags is called vexillology? It has the word LOL in it so it must be fun, right?

Anyways if you wanna find out some facts about the Confederate Flag I highly recommend watching this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3S4geCv000

anunitu
20 Mar 2016, 13:52
Are you really Sheldon Cooper...watch the "big bang theory"

Here.

https://youtu.be/LeyofQK6tRw

DanieMarie
21 Mar 2016, 01:15
Some pagans still use the Celtic cross after the Nazis used it as a reward for sevice to the motherland and called it the "Iron Cross". The swastika is still known as a symbol of healing and protection in spite of the Nazi uses.The "Star of David" is still used as a symbol of healing by non Jewish people. A symbol isn't racist, people are.

Just a heads up....

This symbol: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/HinduSwastika.svg/1003px-HinduSwastika.svg.png

is still very different to this flag:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Flag_of_German_Reich_(1935%E2%80%931945).svg/2000px-Flag_of_German_Reich_(1935%E2%80%931945).svg.png

Also, if you come to Europe, you still won't see the former waving around a lot, because that symbol has been corrupted to European people. Because that symbol has come to mean something VERY VERY DIFFERENT to Europeans to what it means in Buddhist culture. Get your head out of your ass.

anunitu
21 Mar 2016, 01:18
That one(Nazi) was known as the "Blood flag" if I read right.

Blood flag here. (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de%7Dns_bf.html)

DanieMarie
21 Mar 2016, 01:24
That one(Nazi) was known as the "Blood flag" if I read right.

Blood flag here. (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de%7Dns_bf.html)

Even the symbol alone without the red is corrupted, though. Like if you draw that on your house, even sideways and pointing in the other direction, you will have major, major issues. Even if it wasn't a banned symbol in Germany (due to the de-Nazification laws that the Allied countries also played a big role in imposing, in case anyone wants to call Germany out for limiting freedom of speech) that could land you with fines, people would have a huge problem with it. It's not banned in other European countries and I'm still pretty sure that you can't just use it in those countries. People would have a problem with it.

But in case you're curious, it's usually just referred to as the "national socialist flag" or the "flag of the third reich" in Germany. They don't even tend to use the word "swastika" here....it's more commonly called a "Hakenkreuz" (hooked cross? bent cross? I'm not sure exactly how to translate this one).

Denarius
21 Mar 2016, 01:53
hooked cross?

Stormfront and /pol/ go with hooked cross.

DanieMarie
21 Mar 2016, 02:40
Stormfront and /pol/ go with hooked cross.

Thanks.

Either way, the people of Germany and Europe overall are not fans.

habbalah
21 Mar 2016, 07:01
How could this thread have conceivably been a good idea? Posting about racism is guaranteed to pull out dissenting opinions and lead to arguments.

DanieMarie
21 Mar 2016, 08:26
Very true. Also, although I think that the Klan and blackface are pretty objectively racist, do we really need a thread to point that out? Aren't we more or less aware by now that they're racist? Why not have a thread debating a specific topic related to racism such as cultural appropriation, symbols and their meanings (which is what this thread has more or less become anyway), or something like that.

habbalah
21 Mar 2016, 11:34
Very true. Also, although I think that the Klan and blackface are pretty objectively racist, do we really need a thread to point that out? Aren't we more or less aware by now that they're racist? Why not have a thread debating a specific topic related to racism such as cultural appropriation, symbols and their meanings (which is what this thread has more or less become anyway), or something like that.

Also, it's not in the debate section, which it probably should be at this point.

Norse_Angel
21 Mar 2016, 22:27
I don't think the Nazi flag was delved into as much as it should. Germany has banned the flying of the flag, with a heavy prison sentence/fine to those who disobey. It is a dark time in their history, and they do not tolerate such ideologies to remain.
Slavery was such a dark time in our American history, that flag was flown by the south who wanted to retain the use and mistreatment of slaves.
What more is there to know? A flag represents many things, and history is soon forgotten.

The Swastica has a long history, but set against red and white, its meaning changes very quickly.

Denarius
22 Mar 2016, 01:41
Slavery was such a dark time in our American history, that flag was flown by the south who wanted to retain the use and mistreatment of slaves.

...And the US flag wasn't flown by people with dark intentions? America as a WHOLE has a vast and colorful history of terrible things. Black slavery in the south is just scratching the surface.

It wasn't the south alone that tried their best to snuff out native american language and culture. Nor was it the south alone that sent more than a hundred thousand Japanese-Americans to internment camps, or branded the Irish as second class citizens, or massacred civilians in the Vietnam war, or made corporations legally people, or caused one of the worst economic crises of our nation's history with predatory loans.

All this vitriol is nothing more than hypocritical scapegoating.

http://i.imgur.com/P80dx2B.jpg?1

DanieMarie
22 Mar 2016, 01:42
It doesn't even have to be set against red and white. If you publicly display the symbol at all, even sideways by itself, you can get in trouble. It's not always prison, though. Sentences range from fines to three years in prison depending on the context.

There are some exceptions, too. It's allowed to be used in theatre and film depicting that period in history, for example. It can also be printed for research or education purposes (for example, you can have pictures of it in historical books).

Medusa
22 Mar 2016, 01:45
I don't get the KKK's logic. I'm going to wave the American flag. Yet I'm going to do this hand motion that signals that I believe in this dude that was pretty much about everything anti American in nature.

I mean. And do this while I wear a sheet.

The KKK are complete and utter idiots.

B. de Corbin
22 Mar 2016, 02:08
...And the US flag wasn't flown by people with dark intentions? America as a WHOLE has a vast and colorful history of terrible things. Black slavery in the south is just scratching the surface.

This is true, and to deny it would be a terrible thing.

However, we do have a theory of government that is better than our actions, and the general trend, over time, as been to come closer and closer to that theory. To deny that would also be a terrible thing. We cannot change the past, but we can change the future - by being different in the present (the only place we actually are).

Human beings will never be perfect - they just don't come in that flavor - but as long as they are working toward "better" they should get credit for the effort... and any successes they have along the way.

We are now engaged in a great political war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so concieved and so dedicated, can long endure.

anunitu
22 Mar 2016, 02:47
Saw a program about the American bunds that had a flag that combined US flag with Nazi flag.

Pic from Bund meeting.
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xd/509636753.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=0041B48A43B904432A3278D19BD67CA86ADD405C56CDAC57 3B8B05AEB9372AE31E66DF658B02BBE3

Good series from history channel

- - - Updated - - -

Here is the youtube video of the history channel program.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiv2ujvfmmY

Marradin
23 Mar 2016, 22:46
This is probably gonna get me accused of being a racist but I know what I am - and it's not that. I hate everyone equally. If you argue with me when I'm trying to do my job and kick your drunk ass out of the pub I'm working at I'll put you down for a one week ban. if you accuse me of being a racist because I'm white and you have some aboriginal blood, I'll put you down for a two week ban for racism. If you Call me a 'white c--- Jesus" while I'm kicking you out I'll add a month to that ban for being offensively racist. Just because I'm white doesn't mean I don't care about having my color thrown in my face as an excuse for you to behave badly. Also the insistence that a monument to someone 200 years ago who may or may not have been racist because it glorifies 'white folk' ( I think the most interesting one here is the Aboriginals who tried to get Governor Macquaries statue taken down, when he was the only colonial Governor who insisted that if a farmer shot an aboriginal he was to be hung, and if an aboriginal speared a farmer he was to be hung - you know kill someone and I'll hang you I don't care about the relative color of your skin!) is in and of itself a racist act. It is also a form of appalling revisionist history which is NEVER a good idea.

In short I'm sick of racism being discussed as a one way issue. I don't care about how it was in the past (and am willing to say segregation, aparthied ect WERE horrible) but 2 wrongs dont make a right and neither does trying to change history to make people feel better. Best case we won't learn from the mistakes of the past and will make them again. Worst case it we will use the 'justification' of past treatment of group A by group B to treat group B as bad or worse than group B ever treated group A

ThePaganMafia
24 Mar 2016, 05:30
Still think you got it pretty good compared to your average aborginal dude.

DanieMarie
24 Mar 2016, 05:45
Kat Blaque did a pretty good video on this a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSoy4aC8sJQ

Denarius
24 Mar 2016, 12:41
Kat Blaque did a pretty good video on this a while back

Started out promising. Racism is not prejudice, racism is an ideology... Then she starts going into describing oppression and calling it racism.

Racism is the belief that at least one race is superior to at least one other race, or prejudice/antagonism toward a particular race. Black people can absolutely be racist. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_supremacy) Anyone can.

I am sick and tired of tumblrites trying to redefine racism because they find the terms whiterarchy and racial oppression to be too unwieldy.

Even if you accept that black people, at least those in america, can't be racist. They can be chauvinists, prejudiced, discriminatory, bigoted, hateful, and proponents of racial supremacy.

Such as this woman, who ticks off quite a few of such. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/la-sha/on-the-revocation-of-whit_b_9531122.html?)

I am an individualist, my actions are my own and no one else's. We are never going to move past racism until we can see people for who they are and not what they are. She, and her arguments, are part of the problem. Judging people not on an individual's actions and character, but rather on the actions and character of people who look kind of like them. That is absolutely a form of racism in my eyes.

TL;DR Not only can black people absolutely be racist, I'd go so far as to say that she would be a great example of that in action.

Medusa
24 Mar 2016, 19:19
I don't have a problem with someone being racist. I have a problem with someone in power and being racist. And it's usually not of the brown people. So there's that. Eventually sure, we will all be racist and have power. But till then it's pretty eh..one sided.

We really can't change that about history.

monsno_leedra
24 Mar 2016, 19:30
I don't have a problem with someone being racist. I have a problem with someone in power and being racist. And it's usually not of the brown people. So there's that. Eventually sure, we will all be racist and have power. But till then it's pretty eh..one sided.

We really can't change that about history.

But then doesn't that also depend upon local? In the US I would agree in general, non-white's tend to get a harder time of it. Yet go outside the US and a lot of that shifts. Been to many a port during my time in the military and white's were not the power base and sure didn't have the upper hand. Known a few Mexican's over the years who've also told me whites don't hold a lot of influence or power in Mexico either. So this notion of racism and such is really defined in application by where one is at even within the borders of the US.

Medusa
24 Mar 2016, 19:55
But then doesn't that also depend upon local? In the US I would agree in general, non-white's tend to get a harder time of it. Yet go outside the US and a lot of that shifts. Been to many a port during my time in the military and white's were not the power base and sure didn't have the upper hand. Known a few Mexican's over the years who've also told me whites don't hold a lot of influence or power in Mexico either. So this notion of racism and such is really defined in application by where one is at even within the borders of the US.

Actually in Mexico, white (light skinned) Mexicans dominate the music industry, the tv industry, the movie industry, the news industry....want me to stop?

Of course you go to some non white country well non whites aren't going to be the majority nor the one with power. That's like yeah Whites have no power in North Korea. That's a far flight to make a whites have no power argument, que no?:p


We can't change history. You are right. Which means...we really can't change how whites have been in power now can we. Whites got here in about 1600. Slavery just ended officially like 150 years ago. Nope. Cannot change what's really been going on.

Denarius
24 Mar 2016, 20:12
Slavery just ended officially like 150 years ago. Nope. Cannot change what's really been going on.

A hundred years before that white americans fought off oppression by white britons, fifty years after that women were finally allowed to show their ankles when they went swimming.

Things change, and quickly. Up until recently the Irish weren't even considered white.

Marradin
24 Mar 2016, 20:12
Still think you got it pretty good compared to your average aborginal dude.

Really? I live off the carer's pension and am constantly in fear of my partner having a seizure in which she hits her head and dies. I can only be away from home (or her) for 2-3 hours. I love her and that is why I am willing to make these sacrifices. Many of the harms in aboriginal life are communal mistakes that there is no will within their own community to address and strong will to prevent external help from entering their own community. The include endemic alcoholism, petrol sniffing and truancy. (please note I am using the local community as my example. not all are like this but many are) They also get higher govt. payments than I ever will simply for their heritage. (This is a form of racist restitution that I personally abhor - not because they get more money - but because it entrenches their 'other' status.) Their own community glorifies a lack of education which could uplift them.

Then there is the treatment they get in front of courts. One of them broke my nose for simply telling him to finish his drink and leave the pub because it was closing time. In court I found out it was his third drunken GBH (greivous bodily harm) offense. (any broken bone in NSW is a GBH, automatically.)Note if I'd had that record and was in front of the court I'd have gotten 5-10 years in jail. no question. That's what the prosecuter admitted to me after the case went through the 'circle court' system. This is a system where the local magistrate and 3 tribal elders decide on the punishment, with all 4 getting an equal vote on it, meaning that the Magistrate has to convince 2 tribal elders for any jail time. if it is a crime of a black man against a white man it NEVER happens. He was sentenced to 500 hours community service (which he never completed and was never punished for not completing), a 2 year ban from licensed premises, and a 2 year good behavior bond. Not even a suspended jail sentence. This is the sort of thing i'm against and why I have no trust in the law. As a side note when the radiologist looked at the x-ray for my nose they asked me what weapon I'd been hit by and were astonished to hear it was a fist - I have dense bone, and they were sure it was a metal pipe or something, and said I was lucky not to have pieces of bone in my brain. I'm all for total equality, but we have to stop treating people as the 'other' or it will never happen. I'm for death taxes to reduce inequality (despite the fact that my parents are well off, if they ever put me back into their will) Higher Social Service payments and special courts are not the answer. Accepting them as full, equal members of society IS. With all the problems and benefits of that designation.

monsno_leedra
24 Mar 2016, 20:18
Actually in Mexico, white (light skinned) Mexicans dominate the music industry, the tv industry, the movie industry, the news industry....want me to stop?

Of course you go to some non white country well non whites aren't going to be the majority nor the one with power. That's like yeah Whites have no power in North Korea. That's a far flight to make a whites have no power argument, que no?:p


We can't change history. You are right. Which means...we really can't change how whites have been in power now can we. Whites got here in about 1600. Slavery just ended officially like 150 years ago. Nope. Cannot change what's really been going on.

But now your running that same old argument. Slavery existed in Central and South America long before any whites came. Civilizations as a whole rose and fell through out the world long before any whites set foot on the soil. Lighter skin versus darker skin has also existed long before "Whites" arrived in the local area. it's been present in Central and South America, present in Africa, present in Asia, heck think it's still present somewhat in aboriginal peoples. The slavery issue also tends to ignore the whole world history of one people enslaving another or who actually captured and sold which people to whom.

So because light skinned dominate an area in politics and visual industries doesn't mean it's because they are closer to being white. Historically they have dominated visual or power points all along. But it's a nice argument to ensure a victim complex and justification for it. It's about as truthful as people stating the Roman Empire was ruled by white's while ignoring the Ceasar's who were clearly African and rose to power.

That to me is the biggest issue with the usage of the racism card. Have to first forget ones own history and influences as a people, nation, country, etc and lay it all at the foot of the 1600's explorations. Those bad European's who enslaved all those people of color or exploited all those people of color.

Denarius
24 Mar 2016, 20:25
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: A person should only be judged for their personal actions, not the actions of people who look kind of like them.

Racists do that.

Marradin
24 Mar 2016, 20:32
So are you saying that no-one is responsible for the actions of the local community that they Identify with? I have to disagree there - Changes within such social groupings, to be truly effective and accomplished in a reasonable time frame have to come from within that community
I'm all for personal responsibility, but part of that is also a responsibility for the groups you chose to associate with or chose not to disassociate with.
That is why I used the circle court example. It is out and out racism to allow someone to get a different punishment system because of their heritage, if it is lesser or if it more severe doesn't matter.

habbalah
24 Mar 2016, 20:34
It's about as truthful as people stating the Roman Empire was ruled by white's while ignoring the Ceasar's who were clearly African and rose to power.

The only confirmed black Emperor I can find information on was Septimius Severus (https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Septimius-Severus-Rome-s-African-Emperor) and maybe Pescennius Niger (http://www.tribunesandtriumphs.org/roman-emperors/pescennius-niger.htm) (history doesn't seem clear on him). Do you have any other information on this? I ask because they both ruled for a very short amount of time (four years and one year, respectively).

Denarius
24 Mar 2016, 20:49
So are you saying that no-one is responsible for the actions of the local community that they Identify with?

No. They are all individually responsible for their own actions, as well as their willful inactions.

ThePaganMafia
24 Mar 2016, 22:59
So, basically the logic is, "We dug you a hole, threw you in it, took away the shovel, and now it's your personal responsibility to dig yourself out."

And we can overpolice your "hole" and create a fake war on drugs that disproportionately affects the poor and minorities so we can knock you back into your hole periodically. Not only that we'll gentrify your hole and all the holes around you so you can go to even deeper holes. BUT REMEMBER! If you don't get out it's your fault because it's your personal responsibility.

Marradin
24 Mar 2016, 23:21
That's not what I said. I said they actively refuse help from outside their community. And glorify failing to use systems that would help them out. that's a BIG difference. if you weren't responding to me apologies - use reply with quote on this heated discussion

I'm an advocate of constructive cultural merging and tolerance. Everyone under the same laws, removing the concept of 'other' as a bad thing from society. I doubt I'll see it happen anywhere in my lifetime.

B. de Corbin
24 Mar 2016, 23:29
Sounds like kids arguing in the back seat of a car on a long trip...

I have it worse!
No, I do!
No, I do!
No, I do!

Tylluan Penry
25 Mar 2016, 00:42
Sounds like kids arguing in the back seat of a car on a long trip...

I have it worse!
No, I do!
No, I do!
No, I do!

You mean like this? https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k

B. de Corbin
25 Mar 2016, 00:55
You mean like this? https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k

Bwaaaa, Hahahaha!

"Try to tell that to young people today, and do you think they'll believe ya'?"

B. de Corbin
25 Mar 2016, 02:24
Good ideas (smirk smirk) for talking to your kids about racism:

How To Talk To Your Child About Racism (http://www.theonion.com/graphic/how-talk-your-child-about-racism-52588)

anunitu
25 Mar 2016, 02:32
I brought you into this world,and I can take you out...now STFU..I am trying to drive here.

monsno_leedra
25 Mar 2016, 08:07
The only confirmed black Emperor I can find information on was Septimius Severus (https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Septimius-Severus-Rome-s-African-Emperor) and maybe Pescennius Niger (http://www.tribunesandtriumphs.org/roman-emperors/pescennius-niger.htm) (history doesn't seem clear on him). Do you have any other information on this? I ask because they both ruled for a very short amount of time (four years and one year, respectively).

Octavian is another one who gets hammered with the African heritage charges. Though I suppose that is a matter of debate as the claim is his grandmother, might be wrong doing this off the top of my head, was African while others say he looked African. What I've read seems to suggest his "Ancestor" was either from Lybia or Egypt which ties back to some of the claims made against him at Aricia. Octavian is the topic of discussion for a few pages in the book Roman Religions and the Cult of Diana at Aricia. Most of the info I have on Septimius Severus I gathered from books and articles dealing with coins.

Definitely a difficult trail to unravel as time has passed. About the only thing for certain, and that suspect, is that the African connection seems to originate from Lybia and / or Egypt.