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Medusa
05 May 2016, 13:47
I'm not going to give an article, because this goes beyond an article. I don't want to debate the merits of that. I want to talk about the idea of female only train cars. In the east this is a norm actually. And it appears to be making a rise in the west. The reason is mostly due to safety and a free ride from sexual harassment. Now some will say this is regressive. While others say it's putting a bandage on a problem while we work on a solution.

What are your thoughts on it? Your non pc thoughts, that is.

Hawkfeathers
05 May 2016, 15:08
This shouldn't even be a consideration. What's next, segregated airplanes? People need to be responsible for their own behavior, and held accountable for their actions. Don't harass anyone, and they won't need to get away from you.

anunitu
05 May 2016, 15:36
I did read of a kind of Uber thing only for women also Trans women..Might be a thing...

Dumuzi
05 May 2016, 16:11
I don't think it's about segregation. You'd still have the rest of the train/subway being normal. It's just about having one or a certain number of cars being for women only.

I think it's cool because I know lots of women would prefer riding there, so why not?

anunitu
05 May 2016, 16:18
It begs the question of why men might have a hard time dealing with women on an equal basis. This is my take on Women,I LIKE women(not just in a sexual way) I also like women who are Intelligent,and interesting in non sexual ways as well. Different in delightful ways,but also good company and interesting verbal interaction.

Just my way of living,but yours may vary....

Dumuzi
05 May 2016, 16:30
It begs the question of why men might have a hard time dealing with women on an equal basis. This is my take on Women,I LIKE women(not just in a sexual way) I also like women who are Intelligent,and interesting in non sexual ways as well. Different in delightful ways,but also good company and interesting verbal interaction.

Just my way of living,but yours may vary....

I'm having a hard time understanding how this is related to what I said. Can you please explain what you mean?

Hawkfeathers
05 May 2016, 16:36
They'd have to have a men-only car as well. And then they'll all argue about where the transgendered people should go. Trans-transit?

anunitu
05 May 2016, 16:39
so droll Hawk,so very droll....There is a musical number in there somewhere Hawk...

Why I believe there is..

https://youtu.be/tkplPbd2f60

Denarius
05 May 2016, 17:33
No different than having white only cars so they don't have to deal with the uncivilized black folk. Same arguments too: "Just look at the statistics!" or "Some of my best friends are X, I love X, but..." or "They can't help themselves, they're just born violent."

Literally the same arguments.

"I cross the street when I see a man walking towards me because I'm afraid he'll rape me." is perfectly acceptable but "I cross the street when I see a black man walking toward me because I'm afraid he'll mug me." is racist and horrible.

You can't have it both ways. "Privilege" isn't even a factor, it's about thinking about fellow human beings as categorically different than you and thus a threat.

ThePaganMafia
05 May 2016, 20:19
I wouldn't mind having a place to put her so I can enjoy my train ride in peace.

Amadi
06 May 2016, 15:16
It's honestly sad that this is a consideration.

To start with this IS segregation, albeit willing and self imposed. It's separating a group (women) from the main body (unisex society). The negative connotations associated with the word can generally be thrown out of the window, it's not being forced upon women by society for bad reasons.

I have a couple of issues with the idea (that doesn't mean I'm not for it, however) that can be summed up as; it prioritises women, and it's designed to cure the symptoms instead of solving the problem.

I'm a guy, I've been groped, by both sexes. My experience probably doesn't come close to the levels that some women experience. But by prioritising 'female only' it completely leaves men out the loop. We can still be molested, how does this solve the problem?
Also, how does it help a woman's confidence if society is now telling her she has to hide from it's flaws?
instead of having a 'no men zone' it should be a 'safe zone'. A place ANYONE can go if they're made to feel uncomfortable by the actions of another.

Finally, While this issue is represented the most as a male-instigated women-victim problem, to genderise it is to miss 50% of the point.
People are molesting other people in transit, why is there not a more concentrated effort to stop all antisocial behaviour like this?
Instead of separating all the people into groups where they can play nice? Why not just make it more apparent rough play isn't accepted?

Dumuzi
07 May 2016, 04:52
No different than having white only cars so they don't have to deal with the uncivilized black folk.

Since this is the debate section, your post actually made me think about this more deeply and look at it from another point of view that I never thought about. So thanks! But to be honest I'm not quite there yet, I still disagree that it's the same thing.

Women wanting an only women changing room is not the same as white men wanting an only white changing room. Granted having a car or two just for women is also NOT the same as the changing room example I gave, but it's also not the same as the example you gave. It's not as black and white as it seems to be.

Is it important to have everyone in the same cars, and have everyone respect each other inside? Yes.

Is it good to have a car just for women especially during rush hours where everyone is crammed together and bodies are against bodies? Also yes.

And by the way, I'm also saying this as a male. When it's crowded and bodies are touching and stuff it's very uncomfortable for me because I have to watch it and kinda hold myself really in place so I don't accidentally touch a female in a way she doesn't like, as opposed to just being around guys where we can pretty much slam against each other and it wouldn't be that big of a deal. :D

So I don't know, it's really something to think about...

Denarius
07 May 2016, 06:37
Is it good to have a car just for women especially during rush hours where everyone is crammed together and bodies are against bodies? Also yes.

In arguments about this, it's usually about actual molestation. Especially when it's specifically about Japanese trains. (http://howibecametexan.com/2013/08/29/things-i-hate-about-japan-chikan-perverts/) The problem there being especially bad given just how absurdly crowded their trains are (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNMao5AQlUk), and how repressed and stigmatized sex and sexuality is in Japanese culture, as well as the unique problems Japanese men and women are having in that regard. (http://www.wa-pedia.com/culture/sex_in_japan.shtml)

Japan is very conformist, there is a lot of pressure to keep your head down and toe the line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wa_(Japanese_culture)). To be disciplined and polite, to not stand out from the crowd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkoiTayUsBw). Making a scene is a huge taboo. It is somehow less embarrassing to disguise yourself as a vending machine (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/20/world/asia/20japan.html?_r=0) than it is make a scene.

So you have the twofold problem of women not wanting to draw attention to themselves, and the people around her not wanting to get involved. Combine that with rampant sexual dissatisfaction and frustration (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/magazine/26FOB-2DLove-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3&ref=magazine), as well as a notoriously corrupt police and court system (http://skeptikai.com/2013/09/28/the-whole-story-on-japans-99-conviction-rate-and-the-corruption-that-follows/), and you can start to see why this is such a HUGE problem for them specifically. The absurd crowding doesn't help either.

The situation you brought up IS a problem, but it's also one that is not going to go away unless we address the underlying issues. The common issue in both cases being trains are too crowded.

It also comes from the perception that women's bodies are more sexualized and/or intimate than men's, heteronormativity, the idea that men are the aggressors, chivalry, and various other ideas and double standards we have about sex, gender, and sexuality that I'd get into but this post is too long as is so I'll keep it relatively brief.

Crowding is a problem, groping is a problem. I don't see this is a viable solution to the second problem, and it may actually be detrimental to the first. It also does nothing to stop women being groped in mixed cars, and again may actually be making the problem worse.

Unless you go full on unambiguous segregation and enforce the divide, which still wouldn't solve the crowd problem and probably not even the groping problem either.

I've already said my bit on that in my first post.

Bartmanhomer
07 May 2016, 08:57
I think it's sexist. Why does the cars have to be women only? They should give it to men as well. :mad:

anunitu
07 May 2016, 09:17
Point is: Is it chosen by those effected,or enacted by others as a way of controlling. If women choose the separate cars,then that is their choice. same pertains to men,Choice is the factor that determines if it is best for those effected. Think on the idea that MEN decide the ability for birth control for women,or any other choice women should be able to choose for themselves. No Man would abide others controlling their choices..but at times half of human kind are not allowed a choice(Voting rights denied Women and minority's) and in the range of time not all that long ago..

thalassa
07 May 2016, 09:40
TBH, the idea that women need a women-only train car isn't based on the idea that women need protection or that women are more frequently victimized by men. It's based on the idea that men can't control themselves around a woman. Honestly, I would think men would be insulted. As a woman, I am certainly insulted--both for myself and for my husband and son. This very idea is the same reason that women usually get the kids in a custody case, the same reason why women get alimony more often than men, the same reason that women are more often SAHMs, etc.

Medusa
07 May 2016, 09:41
I'm all for it.

There.

anunitu
07 May 2016, 09:52
And if you choose it,then its all good..

Tylluan Penry
07 May 2016, 10:09
Choosing it for myself - fine.
Having someone else say 'You're a woman, go and sit in that carriage' not so fine.

Trains don't even need to be crowded for some people to sexually harrass others. If you get a seat and discover someone sitting nearby, staring, and with his hand in his trousers... yes, it does happen.

DanieMarie
11 May 2016, 03:06
As much as I hate the idea, it has become necessary in some places. In India, where this whole thing started, gang rapes are unfortunately common on public transportation. In the UK, where they're considering it (and probably other places, too), women still get harassed and groped on a regular basis.

This isn't about segregating women or forcing them to sit elsewhere. Women are free to sit in any other carriage. It was women who called for this. It's about offering a safe place to women in a public area where they often do *not* feel safe. If so many men weren't still groping women on the train, this wouldn't be happening. It's not up to me to say what other women feel threatened by. I've been groped and harassed on the train, but still feel safe in general. Some women do not, especially if they have had worse experiences.

Denarius
11 May 2016, 04:09
In India, where this whole thing started

Actually, it started in Japan and over a hundred years ago at that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car#Historical_practice).


This isn't about segregating women or forcing them to sit elsewhere.

Yeah, it's about segregating everybody and forcing men to sit elsewhere.

anunitu
11 May 2016, 04:14
Solution...Just give all of us our own personal Limo..no crowding...just cruising along in our luxury auto mobile..Its a convoy!!!!

- - - Updated - - -

YEH,a CONVOY!!!!

https://youtu.be/Sd5ZLJWQmss

B. de Corbin
11 May 2016, 04:27
Healthy dose of reality - In places where women are not safe in the company of men they need a place where there are not men.

Theoretically, Is it better to expect men to behave as if they were decent human beings? Sure. That's a good long term goal. But in the short term, does it help anybody? Nope.

Reality beats out theory, every time - IMHO.

Denarius
11 May 2016, 04:40
In places where women are not safe in the company of men they need a place where there are not men.

Exactly, we just need to look at the statistics (http://www.infowars.com/black-crime-facts-that-the-white-liberal-media-darent-talk-about/) and respect people's feelings. No one should be forced to associate with people they can't feel safe around (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/around-blacks-never-relax). :rolleyes:

Hawkfeathers
11 May 2016, 05:29
How about a greater police presence? Lock up the harassers. Better yet, throw them off the train when it's moving at high speed.

B. de Corbin
11 May 2016, 05:33
How about a greater police presence? Lock up the harassers...

That would work as well, I imagine, should people be willing to pay for it.

In some places, in the old days, there was self-policing. People discouraged public rudeness - but these days discouraging public rudeness seems to be the rudest thing one can do, unless it happens to be the current PC fashionable thing to hate.

DanieMarie
11 May 2016, 06:13
It does work when and where resources are available. My friend and I were harassed on a train once by a bunch of drunk bachelor party guys from the sticks who were coming into the city (not touched or anything, they just wouldn't leave us alone). We asked the attendant to help us and she asked them to leave. When they said they had a right to sit there, she told them they were drunk and she'd call the police if they didn't choose one of the many free seats on the mostly empty train.

That being said, not everywhere has extra police resources available, and not all train or public transport networks have the personnel available. And some places are dealing with police brutality issues, which doesn't exactly make people trust them.

thalassa
11 May 2016, 06:39
In some places, in the old days, there was self-policing. People discouraged public rudeness - but these days discouraging public rudeness seems to be the rudest thing one can do, unless it happens to be the current PC fashionable thing to hate.

I don't know that I agree with this. I've read enough period letters and news articles to know that rude and lewd, even harassing behavior has historically been fairly standard--as has the failure of the public to step in and help those being harassed.

Psychology doesn't change that much.

B. de Corbin
11 May 2016, 06:49
I don't know that I agree with this. I've read enough period letters and news articles to know that rude and lewd, even harassing behavior has historically been fairly standard--as has the failure of the public to step in and help those being harassed.

Psychology doesn't change that much.

Yeah - that's why I inserted that qualifier (in some places)...

Azvanna
11 May 2016, 13:25
Crowding is a problem, groping is a problem. I don't see this is a viable solution to the second problem, and it may actually be detrimental to the first. It also does nothing to stop women being groped in mixed cars, and again may actually be making the problem worse.

This could be a real issue for ladies who choose to ride with the men. Some men may see it as an indication the woman wants to be groped. I liked what someone said earlier about making a non-gender specific safe zone instead of a ladies only carriage. That way, it becomes a human problem instead of a woman's problem.

Tylluan Penry
12 May 2016, 04:12
Maybe we should have a special Groper's Carriage instead.
That could be fun.

anunitu
12 May 2016, 04:22
And perhaps a "Paid" group of willing gropees,willing(for a fee) to allow groping...You get what you pay for...and everyone is happy...

monsno_leedra
12 May 2016, 08:25
So where is the car for screaming children? Where are the special cars for the morning and evening commute when the school kids are present and riding? Where is the car for mother's with children period? Don't know how many times I saw women with kids in Tokyo trying to herd them out of the way or keep them quiet as people gave them dirty looks or snide comments about their children. Perhaps we should have stag cars for males and females each, then the family cars for families who want to travel together. Then we can have teen cars, young adult cars, middle age cars and elderly cars formatted and outfitted with necessities for each group.

Or are we just assuming it's only women who are groped, touched, etc on a train, bus, plane, etc?

Tylluan Penry
12 May 2016, 09:04
We used to have family carriages on Great Western trains... they were a lovely idea.

monsno_leedra
12 May 2016, 09:34
We used to have family carriages on Great Western trains... they were a lovely idea.

I was stationed in Scotland back in the late 70's and recall a few times where there'd be carriages designated for families and you'd be asked to sit in one of the other cars. About the only time that failed is when there was a big match between rival teams and then every seat was filled.

Tylluan Penry
12 May 2016, 09:45
I was stationed in Scotland back in the late 70's and recall a few times where there'd be carriages designated for families and you'd be asked to sit in one of the other cars. About the only time that failed is when there was a big match between rival teams and then every seat was filled.
On match days you'd be lucky if there was anyy train left... I think everyone was supposed to occupy their minds with just holding on... ;)