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Sean R. R.
15 Jul 2016, 00:09
Hello, Sean here.


It's been a while since I started a thread. Too bad it is on a slightly sad note.

Yesterday at 23:45, the Day of the Bastille (some sort of French independence day), a man drove a truck into the crowd that was gathered to spectate the fireworks. At least 80 dead. Pursuit with police lasts 2km and ended in a brief bullet exchange. The man was shot by the police and was unable to do any harm with his gun.

This guy had an idea. An idea stimulated by the Islamic State. According to french investigations, there were other people involved probably, who had the same idea.

We can bomb their bases, send troops to kill theirs, try to hunt down their thinking heads... But we cannot kill the idea. We cannot kill an ideology. The only way to fight an idea is with our own. But there will always be terrorist acts, even if we destroy extremist organisations, their ideas will still live on.

How can we fight terrorism, not their organisation, not their members, but their ideas?

iris
15 Jul 2016, 00:31
I think, by doing everything in our power to educate the next generation. Make sure that hateful idea doesn't spread to the children, try to show them that violence isn't a sollution, and that they will find good people everywhere if they look... for the mind where it has already festered it's too late, violence is the only language they understand, but we can't let it become the only one we speak...

And my dad just pointed something out that's important to remember. A lot of people died, but look at how many survived. It's terrifying because it's close to home, but much worse happens almost daily where they're from... that should scare us as much, because too many young minds grow up in a world where that is the norm. That's what really needs to change.

That being said, I hope you and everyone you know are alright Sean...
My husbands cousin was there, but she's fine.

B. de Corbin
15 Jul 2016, 00:34
How can we fight terrorism, not their organisation, not their members, but their ideas?

Good question.

There are answers, but they are not satisfying...

There will always be those who will attempt to get what they want through violence. They will always appear to have the biggest impact because violence is sudden, explosive, and highly visible.

Others will try to get what they want peacefully. They will always appear to have the least impact because non-violence is slow, gentle, and highly subtle.

To fight against violent ideas, begin by avoiding encouraging violence - in others, and in yourself - and hang on for a bad ride on a bad road that will go on for a long time to a place that will never be reached.

DanieMarie
15 Jul 2016, 01:28
I think, by doing everything in our power to educate the next generation. Make sure that hateful idea doesn't spread to the children, try to show them that violence isn't a sollution, and that they will find good people everywhere if they look... for the mind where it has already festered it's too late, violence is the only language they understand, but we can't let it become the only one we speak...


I think that's important to remember. Also, sometimes the violence is homegrown. People grow up in marginalized immigrant communities on this side of the world and grow up resentful of the country where they live (even if they were born there). They latch onto extremist ideologies because they speak to those resentments. The attitudes that the far-right are taking on are only going to make those problems worse, not better. Division is making these problems fester and grow, and it's not going to fix them. Education and inclusion are the better options for sure.

thalassa
15 Jul 2016, 01:32
Society is held together with the illusion of limitation imposed by law, but is really held together by the collective force of shame imposed by the disapproving glares of little old ladies like my great aunt Ruby and my 7th grade music teacher Mrs. Osceola Mueller.
For most people, the values instilled by society are reflected in law--sure, there are always those that want a little bit more or less here or there, or sometimes a lot more here or there, but for the most part, the law reflects a codification of how we can all get along by sanding out the edges where we come together--ensuring fair play in employment, safer driving on the highway, clean air ND water. And while many people, if not most, just want to do the best for themselves and their families without causing damage to another and their family, many of them are unequipped to analyze all the issues and minutia of policy and politics and health care and foreign policy and economics and...you get the picture.

But.

There will always be those individuals that (rightly or wrongly) feel that they have been trampled by society, by history, by the law. Some of them will react within the confines of society and the Law--pushing the edges ever outward, one small, shove at a time, creeping millimeter after millimeter...bending humanity towards justice and inclusion.

If there is anything that I believe as a creed, it is that Dr. Martin Luther King and Rev. Timothy Parker are right (and I paraphrase)...the moral arc of the universe bends slowly and slightly,but it bends towards justice. And it does so by more people sitting on it than trying to push it the other way. If you bend it too fast, it's gonna snap back, or even break, and the long term gains will be a major short term or maybe not so short) loss.

There will always be those who feel marginalized (rightly or wrongly) somehow that will lashout against society and the law. And the best way to fight them is to live as if they are no threat at all. To keep living and loving. To keep the arc bending towards justice.

Because the alternative is to be like them. And while fighting fire with fire can be a strategy (firefighters use it with some success), generally speaking all you get is more fire...and more destruction.

Denarius
15 Jul 2016, 02:20
the best way to fight them is to live as if they are no threat at all. To keep living and loving. To keep the arc bending towards justice.

Because the alternative is to be like them. And while fighting fire with fire can be a strategy (firefighters use it with some success), generally speaking all you get is more fire...and more destruction.

I can agree that going into their countries and killing their civilians is not the solution, regardless of how much Bush and Obama seem to think so, but that is not the only way that you fight that.

Properly integrating current migrants, and properly vetting future migrants. Infiltrating mosques and arresting people who incite violence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qwSNFz4uIA). Shutting down weapon trafficking, funding, travel, migration, and support lines to and from radical Islamic states.

Also, yes, education and inclusion. Integration is important as well. Living in a Muslim enclave (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/7/french-islamist-mini-states-grow-into-problem-out-/), with it's own legal system (http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/22/inside-frances-sharia-no-go-zones/) and society (http://pamelageller.com/2016/03/muslim-community-helped-paris-terrorist-hide-from-police.html/), is not integration.

anunitu
15 Jul 2016, 02:39
Humans,can't live with them,can't seem to find a happy medium..Oh,and a lot of crazy is afoot.

B. de Corbin
15 Jul 2016, 02:42
Also, yes, education and inclusion. Integration is important as well. Living in a Muslim enclave, with it's own legal system and society, is not integration.

Accepting the fact that not everybody wants to be you, think like you, feel like you, act like you, live like you, though, and respecting them despite it, is.

Denarius
15 Jul 2016, 02:56
Accepting the fact that not everybody wants to be you, think like you, feel like you, act like you, live like you, though, and respecting them despite it, is.

Exactly. Which is against the teachings of radical Islam. Which is entirely the point I was making. Muslim boarding school bans students from meeting outsiders (http://news.sky.com/story/faith-school-bans-pupils-from-meeting-outsiders-10351443). Gay asylum seekers face threat from fellow refugees. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/gay-asylum-seekers-face-threat-from-fellow-refugees-in-europe/2015/10/23/46762ce2-71b8-11e5-ba14-318f8e87a2fc_story.html) Muslim migrants fan European antisemitism. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-barber/muslim-migrants-fan-europ_b_9395896.html) Cruelty in the Quran. (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html)

Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.

B. de Corbin
15 Jul 2016, 03:14
Exactly. Which is against the teachings of radical Islam. Which is entirely the point I was making. Muslim boarding school bans students from meeting outsiders (http://news.sky.com/story/faith-school-bans-pupils-from-meeting-outsiders-10351443). Gay asylum seekers face threat from fellow refugees. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/gay-asylum-seekers-face-threat-from-fellow-refugees-in-europe/2015/10/23/46762ce2-71b8-11e5-ba14-318f8e87a2fc_story.html) Muslim migrants fan European antisemitism. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-barber/muslim-migrants-fan-europ_b_9395896.html) Cruelty in the Quran. (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html)

Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.

Yes. I assume that you also have a problem with the Amish, Mormons, Hassidic Jews, tribal Native Americans (those dudes actually DO have officially recognized countries-within-a-country), and so on, and so on, and so on...

DanieMarie
15 Jul 2016, 03:18
Though, living in Europe, I have to say that a lot of the international media makes a LOT of things up when it comes to "no go zones" and "sharia" zones. Sharia law is not accepted by the federal law of any European country. And no-go zones don't exist, sorry. I can't really speak for Paris, but I've been there a lot and there wasn't a single place I didn't feel safe. France does have issues with integration, though, and a lot of immigrants tend to live crammed into really poor neighbourhoods. The issue with that, though, is that they don't live there because they want to - they live there because that is literally the only place they can afford to live. If France really wants to prevent its immigrant communities from segregation, it would come up with a better affordable housing policy. I've read the same things reported about London and Germany. I know a lot of people from London and go there a lot, and can safely report that these "no-go zones" aren't real. As for Germany, HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH where do you guys come up with this? Really......

Denarius
15 Jul 2016, 03:27
<.< I'm 9/32nds Native, and have lived my whole life on a reservation. (as a member of a federally recognized tribe)

We can be a bit intolerant of outsiders, but that is hardly comparable. Our laws are largely American, we think of ourselves largely as Americans, our values are largely American, and we are not killing people in the streets for being different than us or supporting those who do. (http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/pg-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10/)

iris
15 Jul 2016, 03:35
One of our politicians just said something clever. I know, I'm shoked. But he reminded people that what we're fighting here should not be called islam, rather he called it a 'death cult'... which... seems kind of spot on.

And Danie. I live next to what would probably be called a no go zone... it's fine. My husband works in one. Sure, there's trouble once in a while. The one where we live was bad a few years ago, but after a lot of effort to integrate it's actually a nice enough neighbourhood.

DanieMarie
15 Jul 2016, 03:36
<.< I'm 9/32nds Native, and have lived my whole life on a reservation. (as a member of a federally recognized tribe)

We can be a bit intolerant of outsiders, but that is hardly comparable. Our laws are largely American, we think of ourselves largely as Americans, our values are largely American, and we are not killing people in the streets for being different than us or supporting those who do. (http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/pg-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10/)

I'm sorry, but you can't really compare the American reservation system to the marginalization of immigrant populations in Europe. Both are serious issues, but they're also completely different issues.

Generally, the right-wing American media knows nothing about Europe, so you really have to take what it says about us and our "immigration problems" with a grain of salt. Do we have immigration issues? Yes. Are they serious? Yes. Do some people in our immigration populations have extreme views? Yes. But the issues are always a lot more complex and they stem from different sources (often, systematic problems come into play a lot. Several people I am close to work in various departments that deal with this stuff and policy on integration all over Europe was TERRIBLE until about five years ago). But it is important to remember that if you see anything about "no-go zones" or "sharia law" in an article about Europe, it's probably a load of bull.

iris
15 Jul 2016, 03:38
But it is important to remember that if you see anything about "no-go zones" or "sharia law" in an article about Europe, it's probably a load of bull.
This. A thousand times.

DanieMarie
15 Jul 2016, 03:40
And Danie. I live next to what would probably be called a no go zone... it's fine. My husband works in one. Sure, there's trouble once in a while. The one where we live was bad a few years ago, but after a lot of effort to integrate it's actually a nice enough neighbourhood.

Exactly. This is more or less the reality. I think no-go zones are probably bad wording choices in the first place and that's a lot of my issue with these pieces. It makes it sound like residents cower in fear when they have to go there, or that they won't go there at all. The reality is that there are poor neighbourhoods in some cities, but they're nothing close to real "no-go zones." I lived in Peckham for three weeks when I was doing exams in London, for example, and I never got stabbed or robbed. Not once. And I walked home alone in the dark on a regular basis. I used to live on the border of Neukolln here in Berlin before it got overrun by hipsters (Neukolln used to be a prominent immigrant neighbourhood. Now it's a prominent hipster neighbourhood) and I never got attacked. Since the immigrant population has been expanding in Berlin, I'd actually say that it's safer in a lot of the city, because the economy here is better than it used to be.

Azvanna
15 Jul 2016, 03:41
Also, yes, education and inclusion. Integration is important as well. Living in a Muslim enclave (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/7/french-islamist-mini-states-grow-into-problem-out-/), with it's own legal system (http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/22/inside-frances-sharia-no-go-zones/) and society (http://pamelageller.com/2016/03/muslim-community-helped-paris-terrorist-hide-from-police.html/), is not integration.




There will always be those who feel marginalized (rightly or wrongly) somehow that will lashout against society and the law. And the best way to fight them is to live as if they are no threat at all. To keep living and loving. To keep the arc bending towards justice.

Because the alternative is to be like them. And while fighting fire with fire can be a strategy (firefighters use it with some success), generally speaking all you get is more fire...and more destruction.


They latch onto extremist ideologies because they speak to those resentments. The attitudes that the far-right are taking on are only going to make those problems worse, not better. Division is making these problems fester and grow, and it's not going to fix them. Education and inclusion are the better options for sure.

I love you guys so much! Lol. Here in this forum only do I feel like I'm mixing with sane people.

Each of you has hit on points I feel strongly about. Education, inclusion, living as if the law-breaker is no threat and Denarius, I like what you said about integration. Integration is so important because as Thalassa pointed out, laws are made by societal norms. In Australia, I know there are pockets of cultures that tend to settle in the same areas, and then seem to almost claim the territory as theirs to live according to their customs. It's like being in a kind of cult... there are girls in Australia that are being "married" before they are even at the age of consent
(http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-23/forced-child-marriage-continuing-in-australia:-report/5613700). It's possible imo because the integration is not there. There is no life outside of the well insulated culture.

The thing is, Sean, not one of my friends are discussing how to combat the ideology behind the terrorists. There are heated arguments on Facebook and links to parties like the Australian Liberty Alliance (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australian-liberty-alliance-the-antiislam-donald-trumpstyle-party-claims-major-growth-20160406-go08lq.html) where all people want to do is reduce the number of people identifying with a religion using the law. There's no way I could support something like that. My religious freedom hinges also on everybody else's. Thalassa, I like what you said about living as if the terrorists are no threat. This to me, is the only answer. To keep living according to my principles and keep believing the best in people. It's a brave thing to do if you live in a high threat area (I don't), but as you said, the alternative is to become just like them.

I believe a bit of political and cultural introspection is needed now. What if these people who are committing acts of terror are disillusioned over something totally valid? I'm pretty sure all IS wants is world domination(?) but the people they are recruiting.. there must be some backstory to their lives and some principle that IS is spouting to draw people to that cause. I don't know what it could be, but to give your life up for it.. to not just allow someone to kill you for your faith but to actively seek your own death and the death of others.. this promise has to go beyond the reward of 40 virgins waiting for you in the afterlife, surely! Pride aside, hopefully we can do better by the next generation. It's possible to grow stronger through conflict.

Hawkfeathers
15 Jul 2016, 04:59
I see that insulated culture here in the American midwest, too. It's definitely a human instinct. Big cities all have their Chinatown, Little Italy, etc., and out here are the gun collecting church goers.

Azvanna
15 Jul 2016, 05:04
Okay so apparently true religion and the apocalypse is what ISIS wants and 'sells' to its recruits... http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

anunitu
15 Jul 2016, 06:29
There is with ISIS,and also Christianity a bit the notion of Apocalyptic belief. For the Muslim there is the Mahdi,also known as the 12th Imam.

See here.http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/article.cfm?recent_news_id=102

It is sad ,as with all end of days beliefs,some want to force it to come to pass,rather than just believe it will come. This mind set also effects some christian groups. There was a movement here in the US that was sending money to Israel to sponsor a group to destroy the Temple of the rock.(Al Aqsa Mosque) to kick start a Christian prophesy.
The rebuilding of the temple of Solomon .
See here. (http://www.wrmea.org/2000-march/anxious-for-armageddon.html)

- - - Updated - - -

The other thing is the history of Europe and the Middle east. Muslims invaded Europe,and European Christians did the same to the middle east. Both committed Very horrendous acts against the other. Call it clash of cultures,or any other name,but the memories still cling in some manner even today. The Turkish genocide ,known as the Armenian Genocide. The Turks still will not accept that they committed Genocide. They were known as the Ottoman Empire then,and it comes up over and over in Europe.

Here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide)

ThePaganMafia
15 Jul 2016, 06:49
This is a problem created by Imperialism and Middle East destruction. We keep talking about what we need to do about ISIS but what is the West going to do about the conditions it is responsible for in those countries. The genocide of millions. The destruction of countries. We can keep crying and somehow acting shocked that after a generation of intervention and destruction people are stiking back. And it may not be right and it may be horrible but how the fuck can we act surprised?

I don't get it. We are going to continue the same course of "intervention" and no amount of education and inclusion will stop someone from hitting us back.

thalassa
15 Jul 2016, 09:11
Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.

But it has to start SOMEWHERE.

And the only somewhere its going to start is with the people that recognize that it needs to happen and have the capacity to do so.

DragonsFriend
15 Jul 2016, 09:27
The four groups you name don't cause problems. They live by the law of the land. They don't kill people just because of their religious beliefs.
We don't have to be the same to get along but it is necessary to live with respect for the laws of the country in which on lives.
Saying it is OK, or necessary, to kill others whose beliefs are different is against the law in all but a few nations.

DanieMarie
15 Jul 2016, 09:31
This is a problem created by Imperialism and Middle East destruction. We keep talking about what we need to do about ISIS but what is the West going to do about the conditions it is responsible for in those countries. The genocide of millions. The destruction of countries. We can keep crying and somehow acting shocked that after a generation of intervention and destruction people are stiking back. And it may not be right and it may be horrible but how the fuck can we act surprised?

I don't get it. We are going to continue the same course of "intervention" and no amount of education and inclusion will stop someone from hitting us back.

I don't disagree with that, either. But living here and having seen a lot of issues arise in immigrant communities (a lot of terrorism has come from people living in Europe for quite a while and even people born over here are identifying with ISIS), I think inclusion and education goes a long way. Because if you have an education system that doesn't do a lot to teach people the local language (I can't speak for France, but in Germany students who used to speak German as a second language often got left behind in school), marginalize communities in ghetto-like settings and discriminate against people from different backgrounds so that they can't find meaningful work, you have a recipe for bad things. You're going to get a lot of frustrated young men with a lot of time on their hands. It's why riots happen from time to time, and ultimately it's why people who live on this side of the world are identifying with terrorist groups.

Continental Europe hasn't had anywhere near the same level of involvement in the Middle East as the US and the UK have (that's not to say we haven't had any, but it's -definitely- not to the same scale). And living here and seeing how communities get marginalized, I think how we treat our immigrants and people of colour at home plays a big role.

Tylluan Penry
15 Jul 2016, 09:38
Exactly. Which is against the teachings of radical Islam. Which is entirely the point I was making. Muslim boarding school bans students from meeting outsiders (http://news.sky.com/story/faith-school-bans-pupils-from-meeting-outsiders-10351443). Gay asylum seekers face threat from fellow refugees. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/gay-asylum-seekers-face-threat-from-fellow-refugees-in-europe/2015/10/23/46762ce2-71b8-11e5-ba14-318f8e87a2fc_story.html) Muslim migrants fan European antisemitism. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-barber/muslim-migrants-fan-europ_b_9395896.html) Cruelty in the Quran. (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html)



Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.

This is the problem with the UK public school system (not the US one - that's different) - they're never allowed to meet boys. Or girls. ;)

Hawkfeathers
15 Jul 2016, 09:42
In the USA, parents who want that kind of isolationism will homeschool or send their kids to private schools.