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Ouranos Ouroboros
29 Oct 2016, 19:11
I was reading over a few posts written by parents both earlier today on another site and just now on this site. I was going to answer a couple of the threads here, but I got a warning that the threads were too old; therefore, I decided to post a comment here of which I feel all parents should be aware.

Children (and other people in general) will usually prefer positive attention, such as a reward, to negative attention, such as a punishment (assuming the two don't get mixed together, which can sometimes happen), but they will - in almost every circumstance - prefer negative stimulation to no stimulation whatsoever.

Sometimes a parent will punish a child in a context in which the child isn't receiving much attention. In a case like that, the parent might actually be reinforcing the child's behavior instead of quashing it. If you want to know more, find some articles on reinforcement scheduling - once parents get what this is about, it often helps them solve problems with their kids.

This comment isn't directed at any individual in particular; it's just something of which many of the parents I meet are unaware.

Heka
30 Oct 2016, 03:25
Lol, I teach kids, and i see this every single day. So many teachers, and parents, think a kid has bad behaviour, but it is nearly always attention seeking behaviour. Once you work that out, and work out why the kid is seeking attention, bad behaviour is really easy to manage.

faye_cat
03 Nov 2016, 14:00
Very excellent point! Another thing I see among young children and toddlers especially is that they will continue to do the negative behavior until you remove the temptation and replace the action with something they can do, at which point you give them positive encouragement.

How this might play out is that a toddler is pulling something out of the container. You say "No!" while removing the container and the pieces, and then move them and give them a toy while saying "You can play with this".

I shake my head at the amount of parents and caregivers I see who just repeat "no" while doing nothing else, or tapping the child's hand away from the item without moving them at all.

monsno_leedra
03 Nov 2016, 14:49
Lol, I teach kids, and i see this every single day. So many teachers, and parents, think a kid has bad behaviour, but it is nearly always attention seeking behaviour. Once you work that out, and work out why the kid is seeking attention, bad behaviour is really easy to manage.

Of course the reverse side of that is I've walked behind a number of kids coming out of classes and listened to them comment about acting up and how such and such a teacher is such an easy mark and so easy to manipulate. Act up a little, tell them a sob story and they think they've done so much to aide them. Not all for sure but more than many want to admit to. Count tell you how many drivers I had that would come in and sit down with us and relate the stories of troubled kids who played the system like pro's. Had more than a few of them who'd wait at our transportation office at times for connecting rides and you'd hear the same stories from various grades ranging from elementary to high school students.

Saw it also in the team's I coached and the Scout Pack's and Troop's I was a leader in.

Sometimes bad behavior is a cry for help. But sometimes bad behavior is simply bad behavior and the way a kid does things.

Heka
03 Nov 2016, 18:57
Of course the reverse side of that is I've walked behind a number of kids coming out of classes and listened to them comment about acting up and how such and such a teacher is such an easy mark and so easy to manipulate. Act up a little, tell them a sob story and they think they've done so much to aide them. Not all for sure but more than many want to admit to. Count tell you how many drivers I had that would come in and sit down with us and relate the stories of troubled kids who played the system like pro's. Had more than a few of them who'd wait at our transportation office at times for connecting rides and you'd hear the same stories from various grades ranging from elementary to high school students.

Saw it also in the team's I coached and the Scout Pack's and Troop's I was a leader in.

Sometimes bad behavior is a cry for help. But sometimes bad behavior is simply bad behavior and the way a kid does things.

Yeah i know plenty of teachers like that. They're as bad as the parents.

And even bad behaviour being the way a kid does things, there's a reason they do it like that, and again, once you work it out, you can work around and counter it.

monsno_leedra
03 Nov 2016, 19:28
Yeah i know plenty of teachers like that. They're as bad as the parents.

And even bad behaviour being the way a kid does things, there's a reason they do it like that, and again, once you work it out, you can work around and counter it.

For the most part I agree but sometimes even knowing the why you can't do much to counter it or help the student. Not to say the student is a lost cause but the conditions are such that so called normal responses will not work nor routine responses within the established system. There-in is where the failure occurs for the system is not designed to handle those situations and those students tend to fall out for one reason or another. While a large portion of them might be labeled as special needs not all of them are special needs as in disabilities but they are special situations such as broken families, homeless, abusive situations, runaways but not homeless, economic, even home schooled was some that were encountered in the school system I worked for.

Yet for all of that there were still some who were cruel simply for cruelties sake and enjoyed inflicting pain and suffering upon others. Under every other condition they had exceptionally well ordered lives and no troubles or issues. Even to the point of one case where they terrified their mother and she begged the system to help her before they brutally murdered her. One would like to think that the exception vice the norm but it was not and is not and such cases occur more frequently than are reported. But in each case, there are at least four in my general area I can think of in the last decade, where each time people say those kids were all such sweet kids. That same bad behavior also related to the bully behavior that influences the suicide rate among young teens and such which also tends not to be reported or spoken of a whole lot.

I like to believe bad behavior can be figured out and the person or student can be worked with and a work around and counter to the behavior put in place. But I also know not all things have a reason behind an action and you can't always work around it or counter it. But agree that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try as best as we can to do so.

DragonsFriend
05 Nov 2016, 10:52
Children need love but they also need to learn how to behave. There is a line that should be drawn by parents. A line that doesn't move or change. This provides children with security.
Love and discipline must go hand in hand for a child to become a healthy adult.

Heka
06 Nov 2016, 15:25
For the most part I agree but sometimes even knowing the why you can't do much to counter it or help the student. Not to say the student is a lost cause but the conditions are such that so called normal responses will not work nor routine responses within the established system. There-in is where the failure occurs for the system is not designed to handle those situations and those students tend to fall out for one reason or another. While a large portion of them might be labeled as special needs not all of them are special needs as in disabilities but they are special situations such as broken families, homeless, abusive situations, runaways but not homeless, economic, even home schooled was some that were encountered in the school system I worked for.

I still maintain, with all these situations, that understanding the reasons for the misbehavior go a long way to either fixing/helping or ignoring the behavior, IF you are willing. There's a teacher in our school right now who does not believe that one students, who is intellectually disabled, is doing enough to help himself. But this kid only has one parent, who has depression, who he looks after, as well as being a teenage boy with an intellectual disability. This other teacher thinks he should be able to do better, and doesn't excuse certain behaviours, and so gets poor results from this students. I on the other hand, do excuse some behaviours, and discuss others with him, and for me he's a wonderful students. I don't put my energy into dealing with behaviours that this students cannot help, and worry about ones I can, and his learning.


Yet for all of that there were still some who were cruel simply for cruelties sake and enjoyed inflicting pain and suffering upon others. Under every other condition they had exceptionally well ordered lives and no troubles or issues. Even to the point of one case where they terrified their mother and she begged the system to help her before they brutally murdered her. One would like to think that the exception vice the norm but it was not and is not and such cases occur more frequently than are reported. But in each case, there are at least four in my general area I can think of in the last decade, where each time people say those kids were all such sweet kids. That same bad behavior also related to the bully behavior that influences the suicide rate among young teens and such which also tends not to be reported or spoken of a whole lot.

These are called psychopaths. I can't speak to this because thankfully I've never had one in my class. I've heard horror stories. I'm sure I'll meet one eventually. And they are sweet kids, because they are bloody intelligent and master manipulators. That's a key indicator of being a bloody psychopath.


I like to believe bad behavior can be figured out and the person or student can be worked with and a work around and counter to the behavior put in place. But I also know not all things have a reason behind an action and you can't always work around it or counter it. But agree that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try as best as we can to do so.

Here the key word is try. You've gotta be open to helping all children. And know which behaviours to overlook. Not every behaviour is a battle, and especially when we're talking about attention seeking behaviour, negative behaviour needs to be discouraged/avoided/not acknowledged (within reason) so that the positive can be praised.

Again, psychopaths a different matter and I have no experience with them.

monsno_leedra
06 Nov 2016, 16:15
I still maintain, with all these situations, that understanding the reasons for the misbehavior go a long way to either fixing/helping or ignoring the behavior, IF you are willing. There's a teacher in our school right now who does not believe that one students, who is intellectually disabled, is doing enough to help himself. But this kid only has one parent, who has depression, who he looks after, as well as being a teenage boy with an intellectual disability. This other teacher thinks he should be able to do better, and doesn't excuse certain behaviours, and so gets poor results from this students. I on the other hand, do excuse some behaviours, and discuss others with him, and for me he's a wonderful students. I don't put my energy into dealing with behaviours that this students cannot help, and worry about ones I can, and his learning.

That one is often a hard call. In part I suppose because of an individual teacher's (and school administrations) expectations & biases of what a Special Need's Student is capable of doing. Reality wise it's the same argument applied to any student but for Special Needs it just seem's, to me anyway, many times it's either to narrow or so wide it's nearly useless. I say narrow because there is a sense of "Why are they here" that is still found" yet also to wide in that "We can't expect them to do better" mentality that I ran into. Sometimes though I do attribute that to new teachers or old teachers in their career's.

I dislike the term but the Special Needs students are a category all unto themselves simply because usually they have no singular "Disability" and even trained teacher's are not qualified for all the variations those "Disabilities" come joined as. That and what works for an ED (emotional Disorders) student may not work for an MD (mental disorders) student or an TBI (traumatic Brain Injuries) student for example. Yet IEP's (Individualized Education Program) are usually written it seem's addressing the most recognized or testable condition that shows up but not specifically the only one. Yet many times those IEP's are in place for a year and not subject to review though the student may actually change through out the year.

Not sure how it is in your school system but in the one I worked in various groups were placed together. Didn't mean the available teacher was qualified for all the "groups" he / she might find in his / her classroom. But the classes were spread through out the county due to limited qualified teachers and classrooms so we transported students all over. Sometimes sharing facilities with other school systems / regional programs due to costs, specific nature of a program's focus or even the nature of the student himself / herself and their special needs that could not be provided for by our school system.


These are called psychopaths. I can't speak to this because thankfully I've never had one in my class. I've heard horror stories. I'm sure I'll meet one eventually. And they are sweet kids, because they are bloody intelligent and master manipulators. That's a key indicator of being a bloody psychopath.

For those who will be murder's I can see this but those who will pass into the manipulator who will "Push" or "abuse" it's not quite so clear. Many times it seem's they fall into the clique where they are the upper groups I think. We had a young girl who went to school with my niece who killed herself due to the abuse and punishment those clique's gave her. Some teacher's observed it and did nothing, other's think it's just part of growing up and probably saw it but didn't pay it much mind.


Here the key word is try. You've gotta be open to helping all children. And know which behaviours to overlook. Not every behaviour is a battle, and especially when we're talking about attention seeking behaviour, negative behaviour needs to be discouraged/avoided/not acknowledged (within reason) so that the positive can be praised.

Agree we gotta try.


Again, psychopaths a different matter and I have no experience with them.

Murder's probably not. Egotistical and cliquish which can be just as deadly maybe more than you've though about.

kalynraye
07 Nov 2016, 08:09
Children need love but they also need to learn how to behave. There is a line that should be drawn by parents. A line that doesn't move or change. This provides children with security.
Love and discipline must go hand in hand for a child to become a healthy adult.

See the joy of having your own children is that you get to raise them how you see fit. Sometimes lines need to be moved depending on the situation and having this idea that it's your way or the highway doesn't work for every child.

That's like saying you treat a special needs child the same way you treat any other child, and you dont. Every pchild/person is different.

But again your kids you do what you think is best, just like I'll do what I think is best.

Ouranos Ouroboros
07 Nov 2016, 23:04
Although I'm not responding to every reply, I've carefully read and appreciate them all.


Lol, I teach kids, and i see this every single day. So many teachers, and parents, think a kid has bad behaviour, but it is nearly always attention seeking behaviour. Once you work that out, and work out why the kid is seeking attention, bad behaviour is really easy to manage.

I'm really glad - particularly because you teach, that you have this attitude. I'm a tutor and have taught in a number of classrooms in public institutions, and it still amazes me how easily many teachers just stop trying to empathize or help. Other teachers or tutors have occasionally asked me how I can deal with the "problem kids" so easily. I answer, "It's easy. Show them respect and they'll almost always show it back to you."


Very excellent point! Another thing I see among young children and toddlers especially is that they will continue to do the negative behavior until you remove the temptation and replace the action with something they can do, at which point you give them positive encouragement.

How this might play out is that a toddler is pulling something out of the container. You say "No!" while removing the container and the pieces, and then move them and give them a toy while saying "You can play with this".

I shake my head at the amount of parents and caregivers I see who just repeat "no" while doing nothing else, or tapping the child's hand away from the item without moving them at all.

Great point! Positive redirection is essential - especially during the toddler stage.


For the most part I agree but sometimes even knowing the why you can't do much to counter it or help the student. Not to say the student is a lost cause but the conditions are such that so called normal responses will not work nor routine responses within the established system. There-in is where the failure occurs for the system is not designed to handle those situations and those students tend to fall out for one reason or another. While a large portion of them might be labeled as special needs not all of them are special needs as in disabilities but they are special situations such as broken families, homeless, abusive situations, runaways but not homeless, economic, even home schooled was some that were encountered in the school system I worked for.

Yet for all of that there were still some who were cruel simply for cruelties sake and enjoyed inflicting pain and suffering upon others. Under every other condition they had exceptionally well ordered lives and no troubles or issues. Even to the point of one case where they terrified their mother and she begged the system to help her before they brutally murdered her. One would like to think that the exception vice the norm but it was not and is not and such cases occur more frequently than are reported. But in each case, there are at least four in my general area I can think of in the last decade, where each time people say those kids were all such sweet kids. That same bad behavior also related to the bully behavior that influences the suicide rate among young teens and such which also tends not to be reported or spoken of a whole lot.

I like to believe bad behavior can be figured out and the person or student can be worked with and a work around and counter to the behavior put in place. But I also know not all things have a reason behind an action and you can't always work around it or counter it. But agree that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try as best as we can to do so.

Most of the time when I see a conflict between an adult and a child, I'm on the child's side. The child, having an underdeveloped pre-frontal cortex, isn't able to understand the nature of consequences - s/he cannot, therefore, make the best judgment calls. I do get that some kids aren't going to make it in the typical system, though; but, again, I tend to feel that the system fails the child far more often than I feel the child fails the system.


Children need love but they also need to learn how to behave. There is a line that should be drawn by parents. A line that doesn't move or change. This provides children with security.
Love and discipline must go hand in hand for a child to become a healthy adult.

I agree. Providing an atmosphere of unconditional love is absolutely critical to successful development - and love and discipline aren't at all incompatible. Indeed, as I alluded to above, young people often don't even see something as an act of discipline if it’s carried out with respect. What I think many parents and teachers forget is that, to do the best they can for a child, they must be willing to offer respect just as they receive it. They must also follow the discipline that they've proscribed; kids are very, very good at spotting hypocrisy.


I still maintain, with all these situations, that understanding the reasons for the misbehavior go a long way to either fixing/helping or ignoring the behavior, IF you are willing. There's a teacher in our school right now who does not believe that one students, who is intellectually disabled, is doing enough to help himself. But this kid only has one parent, who has depression, who he looks after, as well as being a teenage boy with an intellectual disability. This other teacher thinks he should be able to do better, and doesn't excuse certain behaviours, and so gets poor results from this students. I on the other hand, do excuse some behaviours, and discuss others with him, and for me he's a wonderful students. I don't put my energy into dealing with behaviours that this students cannot help, and worry about ones I can, and his learning.



These are called psychopaths. I can't speak to this because thankfully I've never had one in my class. I've heard horror stories. I'm sure I'll meet one eventually. And they are sweet kids, because they are bloody intelligent and master manipulators. That's a key indicator of being a bloody psychopath.



Here the key word is try. You've gotta be open to helping all children. And know which behaviours to overlook. Not every behaviour is a battle, and especially when we're talking about attention seeking behaviour, negative behaviour needs to be discouraged/avoided/not acknowledged (within reason) so that the positive can be praised.

Again, psychopaths a different matter and I have no experience with them.

I agree with your stance on being as understanding as possible. Basic compassion is often what's missing in the classroom and home (I sometimes wonder if teachers learn about Maslow's Hierarchy at all anymore...).


It's possible you deal with more psychopathy than you realize, however. About one in every 100 persons (based on an American study, anyway) is at least somewhat psychopathic. Most psychopaths don't kill people; psychopathy just indicates an inability to empathize with other beings. And many psychopaths are considered very charming by their peers; they often know just when and where they can get away with causing harm (if they're the type that tend to cause harm at all). Indeed, I would say that America (and perhaps the western world in general) is a tendentially psychopathic society because it's so desensitized to suffering. I know most people think psychopathy is primarily genetic - and genetics certainly plays a crucial role - but a lot of people develop psychopathic tendencies due, I would suggest, to their environments.


Thanks to all who replied! Please keep discussing if you have something you want to share. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

monsno_leedra
08 Nov 2016, 06:13
..Most of the time when I see a conflict between an adult and a child, I'm on the child's side. The child, having an underdeveloped pre-frontal cortex, isn't able to understand the nature of consequences - s/he cannot, therefore, make the best judgment calls. I do get that some kids aren't going to make it in the typical system, though; but, again, I tend to feel that the system fails the child far more often than I feel the child fails the system. ..

Not directed at you individually but the comment in general made me think about all the ______ child gibberish. Usually as a justification as to why a child fails in general and is in conflict with society and social norms because they are special. Didn't matter whether they were Star Children, Indigo Children, Rainbow Children, Crystal Children or whatever the latest usage happens to be it's always the same and the criteria keeps growing larger and larger as the dynamic range opens wider and wider. Regardless of the system being addressed it's always a failure of the system vice a failure of the child. Even when the system is developed by the children within the system it's the system that is a failure not the participants within the system who have failed. That is one of the basic requirements of all of the ______ Child perspectives to justify why the child is special and outside the norms of the system.

I do agree that the development of the child's brain and stages of development will always vary. As such a child's ability to make decisions and such will greatly vary depending upon age, mental development, experience and other factors. Same as their ability to abstract think and consider ramifications of their actions but there still has to be accountability. There still has to be boundaries and limitations with corresponding punishments / rewards for acceptable and in-acceptable behavior.

From a perspective of acceptable and unacceptable behavior and what I see in society today there is more disrespect and such than anything I ever saw growing up. I see kids in school struggle today because teacher's can't teach because they are spending more time taking care of the 5 - 10 percent that cause trouble and have to be constantly watched. Starting right at the elementary level and continuing all the way to graduating from high school, assuming they make it that far. When 90 percent of your time is taken by 1 - 5 percent of your student body then the balance is going to produce corrupted results. Your upper 10 - 15 percent on average will motivate themselves on average, the middle group will probably get by, the lower percentage may get by but struggle or possibly grow frustrated and give up, the lower percentage but above that very bottom taking the teacher main attention will suffer the most. Then as you progress higher up through the grades the stratification gets even worse as you factor in peer pressure, cliques, economic pressures, heck even things such as nepotism or favoritism.

But going back to the ______ Child it's always the argument the system fails the child. Ignoring the fact we are often a self motivating creature as well as a heard minded creature, so a failure is equally attributed to either side. Yet it seem's, to me anyway, when the person fails as a self motivator it's the system's fought. When they fail under the herd mentality then it's the system's fought. Yet very seldom are we willing to come and say "You know what, it's the person's fought" because that is seen as being to harsh and unfeeling. Especially since it robs them and us of the ability of laying blame every where else for our failures.

Sort of like my grand-daughter or grand-sons when they come home from school with a bad grade. The teacher didn't help them, the subject was to hard, they didn't understand, etc, etc, etc yet when ask did they ask for help, no..did they study no...did they bring their book home no... but that shouldn't matter according to them..Two of the three fall in the special needs programs under various programs for different reasons..Do they comprehend? Yes but its also selective ..Do I want to Study or do I want to play? Hm Play The system didn't fail them but their parents sure claimed it did that's why we have them now and their parent's don't. But like the ______ Children it was pushed to justify why they couldn't do something as an excuse and allow for failure in my opinion.

Heka
08 Nov 2016, 15:13
Yet IEP's (Individualized Education Program) are usually written it seem's addressing the most recognized or testable condition that shows up but not specifically the only one. Yet many times those IEP's are in place for a year and not subject to review though the student may actually change through out the year.

We have IEPs too. And yep, never reviewed haha. Bloody irritating. But then in my subject areas it's not a priority. Plus, i teach to every kid as an individual, regardless of an IEP


Not sure how it is in your school system but in the one I worked in various groups were placed together. Didn't mean the available teacher was qualified for all the "groups" he / she might find in his / her classroom. But the classes were spread through out the county due to limited qualified teachers and classrooms so we transported students all over. Sometimes sharing facilities with other school systems / regional programs due to costs, specific nature of a program's focus or even the nature of the student himself / herself and their special needs that could not be provided for by our school system.



My school has 38 students from age 5-18. We don't have a seperate class. What a novelty. Bigger towns often have 'Special School's' though, which can group kids more appropriately by disability.



For those who will be murder's I can see this but those who will pass into the manipulator who will "Push" or "abuse" it's not quite so clear. Many times it seem's they fall into the clique where they are the upper groups I think. We had a young girl who went to school with my niece who killed herself due to the abuse and punishment those clique's gave her. Some teacher's observed it and did nothing, other's think it's just part of growing up and probably saw it but didn't pay it much mind.

Murder's probably not. Egotistical and cliquish which can be just as deadly maybe more than you've though about.

See now they kids with psychopathic tendancies, and the cliques who bully are different things. No doubt there's overlap, but what you're talking about is straight up bullying. Bullying is NEVER ok, and the teachers and other adults who saw this behaviour and did nothing to help that student are to blame for her death. The students bullying her are too, but I'd lay the blame on the adults who failed her. Kids are arseholes, it's up to adults to set the standard.

- - - Updated - - -




I agree with your stance on being as understanding as possible. Basic compassion is often what's missing in the classroom and home (I sometimes wonder if teachers learn about Maslow's Hierarchy at all anymore...).


It's possible you deal with more psychopathy than you realize, however. About one in every 100 persons (based on an American study, anyway) is at least somewhat psychopathic. Most psychopaths don't kill people; psychopathy just indicates an inability to empathize with other beings. And many psychopaths are considered very charming by their peers; they often know just when and where they can get away with causing harm (if they're the type that tend to cause harm at all). Indeed, I would say that America (and perhaps the western world in general) is a tendentially psychopathic society because it's so desensitized to suffering. I know most people think psychopathy is primarily genetic - and genetics certainly plays a crucial role - but a lot of people develop psychopathic tendencies due, I would suggest, to their environments.



Maslows is being taught, here anyway.

Psychopathy I probably have, and if I sat here and thought about it I'd come up with one or two with traits no doubt. As I said in the previous post, though, my current school has 38 kids, my last one had 130. Not a lot of kids to compare with really haha

monsno_leedra
08 Nov 2016, 16:30
We have IEPs too. And yep, never reviewed haha. Bloody irritating. But then in my subject areas it's not a priority. Plus, i teach to every kid as an individual, regardless of an IEP

That's the bad thing. They're there to supposedly help but it really seems a lot of times they are poorly used. I think our schools have periodic reviews where the IEP's can be modified a bit but nothing major is ever changed during a review. I think for some it's something like every 3 or 4 months with an annual review that is supposed to be a major review / re-write. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen even though a review will occur. There is one little girl we are familiar with who is having a lot of trouble adapting and her IEP has not been really modified to account for her changes in something like 3 to 4 years now. It is causing her significant issues in school.


My school has 38 students from age 5-18. We don't have a seperate class. What a novelty. Bigger towns often have 'Special School's' though, which can group kids more appropriately by disability.

Just for clarification are you saying you have a total student body of 38 students or a total of 38 special needs students in your school? I'm reading it as a total of 38 special needs students but want to make sure. If so that is still a large number of students if they are all in one classroom setting. If a total student body its still a sizable student population if its all in one general classroom. Though I assume I am making a mistake in that presumption of it being a large singular classroom.

I do not think we have any singular classroom's left that are all age encompassing anymore here in the states. Maybe in some of the very rural areas or some of the reservation schools but none that I am personally aware of. Though historically we had more than a few scattered about the country. We still have quite a few "Museum" school houses that are single room or double room which I couldn't even imagine teaching in.

But like I said that is the image I have in my mind of a school that has a student body of 38 students. Figure I am wrong but it's hard to shift that one as I have no practical or physical experience to call on to visualize against.


See now they kids with psychopathic tendancies, and the cliques who bully are different things. No doubt there's overlap, but what you're talking about is straight up bullying. Bullying is NEVER ok, and the teachers and other adults who saw this behaviour and did nothing to help that student are to blame for her death. The students bullying her are too, but I'd lay the blame on the adults who failed her. Kids are arseholes, it's up to adults to set the standard.

It was a sad but interesting situation as it was evaluated and reflected upon. So many claimed to be unaware or though it just normal teenage behavior. What was bad is it not only touched upon her life at school but also life at home so she was being abused and belittled on every front. My niece was friends with her and said there may even have been sexual abuse going on as well as her friend suggested it but never really said where or whom but it all broke her down. For certain to many turned a blind eye to it or excused it as a normal part of things and who knows how many cries for help or warning signs were ignored or missed.

Pathetic part is I have no doubt it is still ongoing at that and other schools and staff and students are still blindly missing the signs. Intentionally or un-intentionally doesn't really matter in the end

Heka
08 Nov 2016, 17:41
Our IEPS get rechecked once a semester technically and signed off by parents, but I don't think they're effective. As I said, just teach every student as an individual regardless of 'status'

Nope, 38 total kids in the whole school. 3 classes. Specials in with everyone else. Don't have any major specials though.

Bullying isn't normal teenage behaviour. It shits me when it gets dismissed.

monsno_leedra
08 Nov 2016, 19:03
I think what's bad is bullying is part of the teenager process of finding themselves and their place but it gets screwed up as well. It's all part and parcel of the discovering a pecking order and their place within the social order and stratification within their peer group, economic group, social group and to a degree even their cultural group. It sucks and we tend to try and ignore it when we hold a place above that teen order. Yet forget we went through it ourselves and continue to experience it all through our adult lives though the means and manner it takes changes.

The brutality of it doesn't per say change, just the methods that are employed. It starts on the elementary school play grounds and sports grounds and is wound into nearly all aspects of our lives. Whether it be our love courtships, work relationships, friendships, competitions, competitive events and practices we belong to and even inter / intra familial relationships. I separate competitions and competitive events as competitions maybe as simple as competitions between co-workers who we compete against for raises or job openings where competitive events I tend to place as sports or other competitive things that we knowingly compete against another seeking to win.

Chessa
08 Nov 2016, 19:29
Bullying isn't normal teenage behaviour. It shits me when it gets dismissed.

My worst bullying story is from middle school, where kids started spreading rumors that I was a lesbian. Rather than actually trying to do anything, the principal told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.

Fast forward to when I was a 100-pound 7th grader being shoved around in the hallways by 150 (and one even 200) pound eighth graders so I'd crash into their buddies and they'd get my "lesbian cooties" (let me remind you, these kids were only a few months from being high school students). The principle told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.


In high school, we had to sit through all these "rallies" about how bullying is bad and hurts people, and many teachers and administrators decided that would accomplish everything they needed, and sometimes the lack of oversight is atrocious. I think the only time I ever saw a teacher step in was when someone lobbed a scalpel in my direction because he didn't like my face. (But props to the one teacher who was so strict about bullying, she wouldn't even allow self-deprecation)

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Edit: The other issue with the rumors and my subsequent treatment is that if forced my friend further into the closet, and she started pushing me away because people would think we were a couple. Knowing what I know now, I think that's the saddest thing. And who knows? We might have made a cute couple.

monsno_leedra
08 Nov 2016, 19:37
My worst bullying story is from middle school, where kids started spreading rumors that I was a lesbian. Rather than actually trying to do anything, the principal told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.

Fast forward to when I was a 100-pound 7th grader being shoved around in the hallways by 150 (and one even 200) pound eighth graders so I'd crash into their buddies and they'd get my "lesbian cooties" (let me remind you, these kids were only a few months from being high school students). The principle told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.


In high school, we had to sit through all these "rallies" about how bullying is bad and hurts people, and many teachers and administrators decided that would accomplish everything they needed, and sometimes the lack of oversight is atrocious. I think the only time I ever saw a teacher step in was when someone lobbed a scalpel in my direction because he didn't like my face. (But props to the one teacher who was so strict about bullying, she wouldn't even allow self-deprecation)

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Edit: The other issue with the rumors and my subsequent treatment is that if forced my friend further into the closet, and she started pushing me away because people would think we were a couple. Knowing what I know now, I think that's the saddest thing. And who knows? We might have made a cute couple.

Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately that an example where the bullying goes wrong and is condoned by the establishment, in your case by its silence.

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I say goes wrong because for many that is an issue of confusion and exploration and social and cultural pushing and prodding is a big battle that many will experience. Education can turn the situation into an acceptance scenario and enlightenment but it can also force it into a true darkness and destruction. Apparently by your later addition it became such a darkness and destruction fallout.

Ouranos Ouroboros
21 Nov 2016, 17:25
Not directed at you individually but the comment in general made me think about all the ______ child gibberish. Usually as a justification as to why a child fails in general and is in conflict with society and social norms because they are special. Didn't matter whether they were Star Children, Indigo Children, Rainbow Children, Crystal Children or whatever the latest usage happens to be it's always the same and the criteria keeps growing larger and larger as the dynamic range opens wider and wider. Regardless of the system being addressed it's always a failure of the system vice a failure of the child. Even when the system is developed by the children within the system it's the system that is a failure not the participants within the system who have failed. That is one of the basic requirements of all of the ______ Child perspectives to justify why the child is special and outside the norms of the system.


I do agree that the development of the child's brain and stages of development will always vary. As such a child's ability to make decisions and such will greatly vary depending upon age, mental development, experience and other factors. Same as their ability to abstract think and consider ramifications of their actions but there still has to be accountability. There still has to be boundaries and limitations with corresponding punishments / rewards for acceptable and in-acceptable behavior.


From a perspective of acceptable and unacceptable behavior and what I see in society today there is more disrespect and such than anything I ever saw growing up. I see kids in school struggle today because teacher's can't teach because they are spending more time taking care of the 5 - 10 percent that cause trouble and have to be constantly watched. Starting right at the elementary level and continuing all the way to graduating from high school, assuming they make it that far. When 90 percent of your time is taken by 1 - 5 percent of your student body then the balance is going to produce corrupted results. Your upper 10 - 15 percent on average will motivate themselves on average, the middle group will probably get by, the lower percentage may get by but struggle or possibly grow frustrated and give up, the lower percentage but above that very bottom taking the teacher main attention will suffer the most. Then as you progress higher up through the grades the stratification gets even worse as you factor in peer pressure, cliques, economic pressures, heck even things such as nepotism or favoritism.


But going back to the ______ Child it's always the argument the system fails the child. Ignoring the fact we are often a self motivating creature as well as a heard minded creature, so a failure is equally attributed to either side. Yet it seem's, to me anyway, when the person fails as a self motivator it's the system's fought. When they fail under the herd mentality then it's the system's fought. Yet very seldom are we willing to come and say "You know what, it's the person's fought" because that is seen as being to harsh and unfeeling. Especially since it robs them and us of the ability of laying blame every where else for our failures.


Sort of like my grand-daughter or grand-sons when they come home from school with a bad grade. The teacher didn't help them, the subject was to hard, they didn't understand, etc, etc, etc yet when ask did they ask for help, no..did they study no...did they bring their book home no... but that shouldn't matter according to them..Two of the three fall in the special needs programs under various programs for different reasons..Do they comprehend? Yes but its also selective ..Do I want to Study or do I want to play? Hm Play The system didn't fail them but their parents sure claimed it did that's why we have them now and their parent's don't. But like the ______ Children it was pushed to justify why they couldn't do something as an excuse and allow for failure in my opinion.


Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful comments. I certainly don't think all children are blameless all the time; I just tend to look at the actions of parents, teachers, and other adults before I look at what children (who may not be able to understand their own behavior) have done or try to assign blame to the child. But the blame certainly rests with the child in many cases - and, when it does, I try to respond with compassionate discipline.


(I’d like to quickly mention that I never, ever spank children, however. In addition to reducing intelligence and increasing subsequent aggressive behavior, spanking sends the message that, as an adult, it’s okay to hit someone when you’re frustrated with them… and kids will definitely pick up on that message.)


From the points of view you’ve expressed, I think we're coming from two somewhat different views of child psychology. You seem to be focusing on behavior, whereas I try to focus more on cognition. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong; many teachers prefer behaviorist (Skinnerian and otherwise) methods above methods of cognitive psychology. You might find authors who are sympathetic to your viewpoints by looking into some behaviorist literature, but it's just a suggestion.



We have IEPs too. And yep, never reviewed haha. Bloody irritating. But then in my subject areas it's not a priority. Plus, i teach to every kid as an individual, regardless of an IEP




My school has 38 students from age 5-18. We don't have a seperate class. What a novelty. Bigger towns often have 'Special School's' though, which can group kids more appropriately by disability.






See now they kids with psychopathic tendancies, and the cliques who bully are different things. No doubt there's overlap, but what you're talking about is straight up bullying. Bullying is NEVER ok, and the teachers and other adults who saw this behaviour and did nothing to help that student are to blame for her death. The students bullying her are too, but I'd lay the blame on the adults who failed her. Kids are arseholes, it's up to adults to set the standard.


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Maslows is being taught, here anyway.


Psychopathy I probably have, and if I sat here and thought about it I'd come up with one or two with traits no doubt. As I said in the previous post, though, my current school has 38 kids, my last one had 130. Not a lot of kids to compare with really haha


I’m glad they’re teaching Maslow’s… assuming they’re teaching it to at least the third level of Bloom’s Taxonomy…


Some bullies are psychopaths, but I think most are exhibiting behavior that is more sociopathic. It can vary widely from person to person and situation to situation, however.


You certainly don't strike me as psychopathic; you would appear to be too compassionate to fit into that category. And you may not have encountered a psychopathic student (or may have encountered very few) because of the relatively low (though still very challenging) number of students in the student bodies with which you've worked.



My worst bullying story is from middle school, where kids started spreading rumors that I was a lesbian. Rather than actually trying to do anything, the principal told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.


Fast forward to when I was a 100-pound 7th grader being shoved around in the hallways by 150 (and one even 200) pound eighth graders so I'd crash into their buddies and they'd get my "lesbian cooties" (let me remind you, these kids were only a few months from being high school students). The principle told me to ignore it, just stupid kids being stupid kids.




In high school, we had to sit through all these "rallies" about how bullying is bad and hurts people, and many teachers and administrators decided that would accomplish everything they needed, and sometimes the lack of oversight is atrocious. I think the only time I ever saw a teacher step in was when someone lobbed a scalpel in my direction because he didn't like my face. (But props to the one teacher who was so strict about bullying, she wouldn't even allow self-deprecation)


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Edit: The other issue with the rumors and my subsequent treatment is that if forced my friend further into the closet, and she started pushing me away because people would think we were a couple. Knowing what I know now, I think that's the saddest thing. And who knows? We might have made a cute couple.


I'm so sorry about your bullying experiences! I, too, have seen many an administrator turn away and ignore bullying, especially when it's teachers or other administrators who are doing the bullying - or when the bullying is being perpetrated by the children of the wealthy. At one point, my high school choir teacher physically attacked me in front of about 30 others, but the vice principal refused to even gather statements from any of the witnesses. He just told me it was probably my fault and dismissed my concerns. I think most school administrators understand that silence is the best ally of the status quo - so, if they're happy, they don't care whether others are. Again, though, I'm not making a universal statement, just a tendential one (based on my personal experiences).

Heka
21 Nov 2016, 22:38
I’m glad they’re teaching Maslow’s… assuming they’re teaching it to at least the third level of Bloom’s Taxonomy…

Some bullies are psychopaths, but I think most are exhibiting behavior that is more sociopathic. It can vary widely from person to person and situation to situation, however.

You certainly don't strike me as psychopathic; you would appear to be too compassionate to fit into that category. And you may not have encountered a psychopathic student (or may have encountered very few) because of the relatively low (though still very challenging) number of students in the student bodies with which you've worked.

Yeah, both are taught. Usually in the form of convenient pyramids...

Psycho/socio... I often confuse the two. There's also the issue of the "power" child. Who exhibits shitty behaviour because school/that situation is the only place they are able to take control of their lives. Can be very negative for other children, but again, once you know why they're doing it, you can work around it.

Dreiukers Goals of Misbehaviour I think it is.