View Full Version : Article: How to convince someone when facts fail

22 Jan 2017, 10:38
I really wasn't sure if this should go in here or debate but I'm choosing to start the topic here for now and if necessary, can move it later.

I thought this article was pretty interesting. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-convince-someone-when-facts-fail/?WT.mc_id=SA_FB_MB_OP

22 Jan 2017, 11:56
It does seem to explain the present issues with "Alternate facts" as mentioned by Kellyanne Conway.

Washington post story. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/22/kellyanne-conway-says-donald-trumps-team-has-alternate-facts-which-pretty-much-says-it-all/?utm_term=.66c371096852)

And the interview:
After some tense back and forth, Conway offered this:

Don't be so overly dramatic about it, Chuck. You're saying it's a falsehood, and they're giving — our press secretary, Sean Spicer, gave alternative facts to that. But the point really is —

At this point, a visibly exasperated Todd cut in. “Wait a minute. Alternative facts? Alternative facts? Four of the five facts he uttered . . . were just not true. Alternative facts are not facts; they're falsehoods.”

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In the Washington post story they also mention "Cognitive Dissonance"

and the memo and similar analysis: (https://twitter.com/rascouet/status/823035518313267202/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

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This is interesting.

The normalization of Donald Trump began in “1984”: How George Orwell’s Newspeak has infected the news media

The Story. (http://www.salon.com/2016/11/21/the-normalization-of-donald-trump-began-in-1984-how-george-orwells-newspeak-has-infected-the-news-media/)

22 Jan 2017, 13:12
I was reading the actual steps to doing this in the article.

The internet is probably the worst place to do these steps.

It should probably be face to face to avoid the subtle confusion of things. We need that eye contact to fit the discussion for real context.

I think.

*sorry, just woke up.:p

22 Jan 2017, 13:21
Someone I know IRL told me stats on how many people in the state collect welfare. I took him at his word at first, but then I looked it up and he was WAYYYYY off. So I told him. He babbled about I-don't-know-what. I never learn not to trust people, the most innocuous things can be lies because that subspecies thinks it's fun.

22 Jan 2017, 13:51
That's now to be known as 'providing alternate facts' ala the Devil in office.
I feel as if someone's been reading too many X-Men comics with all their 'alternate universes'.

am I taking crazy pills?

22 Jan 2017, 14:01
Saying,my ex's first cousin's brothers girlfriends sisters best friends neighbor told me this so it MUST be true is not the same as I read the official documents that showed the actual facts and did serious fact finding and have in my hand the documents in question.

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That's now to be known as 'providing alternate facts' ala the Devil in office.
I feel as if someone's been reading too many X-Men comics with all their 'alternate universes'.

am I taking crazy pills?

I think the ones taking the crazy pills are in power at the moment.

also a quote from ex-President Nixon:

If the president does it,it is not illegal(this a bit before he was allowed to resign,and avoid impeachment) and then was pardoned to save face.

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And yes,he is starting to seem a lot like "Tricky Dick"


22 Jan 2017, 15:09

22 Jan 2017, 15:40
Little thing that I caught on local news,but can not find on google except on suspect news sites.

Bill to have US leave the UN. (http://nbc4i.com/2017/01/22/bill-introduced-to-remove-us-from-united-nations/)

WASHINGTON (WCMH) — A proposed House Resolution would set the stage for the United States to remove itself from the United Nations.

The proposed “American Sovereignty Restoration Act of 2017” is sponsored by Rep. Mike Rogers (R-AL). It was introduced in the House on Jan. 3 and referred to the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, according to the Congress website.

The bill proposes that the United States terminate its membership in the UN, that the UN removes its headquarters from the US, and that the US stops participating in the World Health Organization. Read the full bill here.

Should it pass, the act would take effect two years after it is signed.

I think that is NBC The 4I not sure.

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The gov site with the bill,here (https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/193/text)

22 Jan 2017, 18:55
I had this happen to me when I was younger. I was CONVINCED by the whole crystal skull thing and it took quite a while for the truth to sink in. Looking back, from the first instance of someone pointing to evidence that it was fake, something in my mind started to change. I don't remember digging my heels in, although I do remember pointing out that evidence doesn't equate to proof, which sounds very similar to the process the article describes. I started to do research though, and the more I read, the more I started to realise how dumb the whole crystal skull myth was anyway. Then of course, Indiana Jones well and truly killed it!

Diet is another area where people can become almost superstitious in their beliefs. Just look at me and the whole endocrine thing. I'm completely convinced by it and am preaching to anyone who'll listen, but I'm a) not a doctor, and b) taking my advice from a sodding chiropractor who's advice can definitely be a bit dubious at times, even if I'm convinced by some of his theories. It would be very difficult to convince me that the endocrine approach to health and weight loss is bunk (unless the weight I lost from my thighs suddenly popped back on while I'm still eating as I am), and I'd probably argue that the evil pharmaceutical industry doesn't want us to believe that we don't need thyroid medications, or diabetic medication, or should avoid the estrogen pill, we just need to change what we eat. It took me a very long time to stop being so negative about the Atkins diet too, and that was despite being bombarded with real-life examples of people losing weight overnight, their health improving and their cholesterol actually going down despite the high fat content of their diet. So in a way I can relate to this stubborn refusal to give up your beliefs.

I'm not sure you really can change some people's mind though, even with open and respectful debate, which in short is what the article was saying. This would only work with people who are at least partially open to changing their mind. And as a side-note, I honestly believe that this very forum taught me how to keep my mind open!