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anubisa
14 Feb 2019, 19:42
Just finished watching Pearl Harbor. Love the movie. My grandpa died on the anniversary of it though. Anyway, I wanted to ask a question that has been on my mind for a while and just wanted ya'lls opinion. Do you think that they should raise any of ships or should have after the war? I always wondered and have been on the fence. On one hand I would have wanted the men to get a proper burial, however, being under the water all those years you never know how it would react if it was pulled out. But it reminds me of like a mass burial site with no respect in a way. So many died during that day and I guess it would be right not to disturb them, but it always has been on my mind. What do you all think?

MaskedOne
14 Feb 2019, 19:51
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Arizona_Memorial

The Arizona is actually honored rather significantly with a memorial built over it's resting place and naval and coast guard traditions related to it when ships approach. I'm not sure off hand if the other ships there have their own honors or the memorial for Arizona is meant to provide honor to all ships lost at Pearl but the Navy honors its dead there and Arizona is treated as an active military cemetary.

monsno_leedra
14 Feb 2019, 20:30
There's only two ships at Pearl Harbor that were never raised after the attack. Those are the USS Arizona (BB-39) and the USS Utah (BB-31). Both have Memorials at Pearl Harbor though the Arizona's is the better known memorial. The Utah had 64 men and officers killed during the attack, like Arizona those entombed in her hull have never been removed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Utah_(BB-31)

It's a little known fact but there was a second disaster at Pearl harbor as well that is often called THE SECOND PEARL HARBOR or West Lock Disaster. 163 were killed, 193 wounded and all the dead were buried in the Punchbowl Crater Cemetery. The burnt out wreck of LST-480 still rest on the shoreline of the West Lock were it was destroyed from the fire's and explosions.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/this-little-known-disaster-was-the-first-to-be-called-the-second-pearl-harbor

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As a side note when the Arizona went down she not only blew in half but the explosion caused her decks to collapse down upon themselves from the extreme heat of the fires. Some bodies were recovered from the wreck but the majority of the entombed men would never have been recoverable due to being destroyed by the complete destruction of the ship and their bodies.

The fact the ships fuel bunkers had recently been filled means she was fully fueled so the ship would have burned easily once the fires were started and the tanks ruptured. Her internal structure was both broken across the ship and along the length of the ship for some distance though I've never seen any reports that state just how far length wise. But basically the bottom was blown out and she went straight down after the explosion lifted the hull upwards.

Today there is still fuel oil seeping out of her ruptured bunkers and will continue to do so for many years to come.

Tylluan Penry
14 Feb 2019, 23:54
There are many lost ships that are treated as war graves around the world. This link may take you to a story that you've not heard in the US, but it happened just after the outbreak of WW2 late in 1939. There was still oil on the wreck in 2012 (and they continue as far as I know to try and remove it, plus the unexploded bombs, etc. that were on board).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Royal_Oak_(08)

I'm not sure wrecks are any better for being shifted provided they're not causing a hazard to shipping. Nor am I certain whether the dead are more honoured for being brought back to land. It can cause a lot of heartache either way.

anunitu
15 Feb 2019, 00:08
i used to love this at navy ceremonies


https://youtu.be/ic8zMkYwnq8

anunitu
15 Feb 2019, 04:20
better one
https://youtu.be/_7o4Ltq_Dz8
i think this is the full song.

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that started the water works, i am thinking the stroke did not break something it fixed something so i could finally feel and cry without holding everything back

anubisa
15 Feb 2019, 20:59
Thanks everyone. I would like to go to Hawaii and see the Pearl Harbor memorial. I have learned from you. Ya'll know I am a history buff, but I have read more on the foreign side of the war. So I need to read more about Pearl Harbor. Thank you all for your information.

monsno_leedra
15 Feb 2019, 23:19
Thanks everyone. I would like to go to Hawaii and see the Pearl Harbor memorial. I have learned from you. Ya'll know I am a history buff, but I have read more on the foreign side of the war. So I need to read more about Pearl Harbor. Thank you all for your information.

The last I heard it's down for repair right now. Supposedly it will take a few years to get it back up and open but double check on that part to be sure. Even though closed the flag is still raised and lowered each day over the memorial just has it has been.

I know it was an eerie somber feeling when I was out there on the memorial. Each little bubble of oil coming up from the wreck was almost like a drop of blood as it came to the surface then breaks on the surface to slowly grow wider and wider. Before you go out to the ship itself you'll sit through a short film about the battle that will also cover the then current condition of the ship. It was taken around the wreck and like a background subliminal chant they read off the names of those who died and were entombed.

One of the things I did as part of my retirement shadow box is my flag was flown over the memorial. Basically a Shadow Box is a keep sake of our career that usually has a listing of our medals & ribbons we've earned, a US Flag, a listing of our duty stations, many times hat devices of all the ranks we achieved while we served. Maybe other memorabilia such as command coins & patches for instance.

Torey
16 Feb 2019, 00:13
IMHO the slumbering ships and their silent dead are a monument in and of themselves. I cannot say what value raising them would have. That being said, I am also of the mind that those who perished in the attacks are far beyond this place now, and their bodies are just matter within this physical plane, as are the ships that slipped beneath the waves on that day. I suppose that I believe that whatever action is taken on the physical plane by the living serves a purpose for the living alone and has little impact on the dead. But, in some sense, I believe that there is a certain amount of respect to be had in refraining from disturbing the final resting place of those who have passed on.

anunitu
16 Feb 2019, 00:43
we require a place to allow a reason for our reaching for death and destruction in war,and at times wishing some redemption will not require us to face the truth that war is never the path to freedom,but just the tightening of our collective chains to our loss over and over again, but will never lead to and end to the human plague of our destruction of our eternal souls from our lack of any true vision of our collective guilt.

Tylluan Penry
16 Feb 2019, 02:18
Another thought - in no way intended to detract from this thread although please bear in mind that many people in the UK strongly resented US hesitation in joining in - is this:

According to Wiki, 2,335 American servicemen were killed and 1,143 were wounded. Eighteen ships were sunk or run aground, including five battleships.

Now take a look at this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir

To paraphrase, this was when the French Fleet was bombed by air on 3rd July 1940. 1,297 french sailors were killed, five ships damaged and a battleship sank.

Who did the deed? The British. Their Allies. And they did it after France capitulated to Germany to prevent their ships being used against Britain.
And hardly anyone outside of France has even heard of it. :(

anubisa
16 Feb 2019, 20:06
we require a place to allow a reason for our reaching for death and destruction in war,and at times wishing some redemption will not require us to face the truth that war is never the path to freedom,but just the tightening of our collective chains to our loss over and over again, but will never lead to and end to the human plague of our destruction of our eternal souls from our lack of any true vision of our collective guilt.

Big words anu and never truer.

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Another thought - in no way intended to detract from this thread although please bear in mind that many people in the UK strongly resented US hesitation in joining in - is this:

According to Wiki, 2,335 American servicemen were killed and 1,143 were wounded. Eighteen ships were sunk or run aground, including five battleships.

Now take a look at this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir

To paraphrase, this was when the French Fleet was bombed by air on 3rd July 1940. 1,297 french sailors were killed, five ships damaged and a battleship sank.

Who did the deed? The British. Their Allies. And they did it after France capitulated to Germany to prevent their ships being used against Britain.
And hardly anyone outside of France has even heard of it. :(

You're right. I never heard of it. I also thought that the French were forced into helping Germany. Germany captured France in War World II if I'm correct. That's crazy as hell.

MaskedOne
16 Feb 2019, 20:22
Big words anu and never truer.

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You're right. I never heard of it. I also thought that the French were forced into helping Germany. Germany captured France in War World II if I'm correct. That's crazy as hell.

France fell very early in the war, it was not however entirely directly controlled. Instead there was a short lived puppet government

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

that collaborrated rather heavily with Germany running southern France. Northern France stayed under military occupation.