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Bartmanhomer
06 Jul 2019, 12:54
I just don't understand the logic and rationality of everybody get butthurt over a black mermaid. I don't have any problems having a black mermaid and I'm black myself. Like really? There's black mermaids in the TV Show Siren and no one didn't complain about that. But when it come to Disney. *facepalm* This whole complaining and whining is very ridiculous. :mad:

MaskedOne
06 Jul 2019, 13:16
I just don't understand the logic and rationality of everybody get butthurt over a black mermaid. I don't have any problems having a black mermaid and I'm black myself. Like really? There's black mermaids in the TV Show Siren and no one didn't complain about that. But when it come to Disney. *facepalm* This whole complaining and whining is very ridiculous. :mad:

People are frequently dense. There was also a lot of bitching about Heimdall in Thor being black and Idris Elba did a marvelous job as Heimdall.

Bartmanhomer
06 Jul 2019, 13:34
People are frequently dense. There was also a lot of bitching about Heimdall in Thor being black and Idris Elba did a marvelous job as Heimdall.

I didn't know about that. He did a very good job as Heimdall. :)

iris
06 Jul 2019, 14:14
I feel like I'm missing something here. what black mermaid where, and why the * would that be a problem?

Bartmanhomer
06 Jul 2019, 14:23
I feel like I'm missing something here. what black mermaid where, and why the * would that be a problem?

Because people are ignorant and prejudice against black mermaids. :mad:

monsno_leedra
06 Jul 2019, 15:16
NO people are against Ariel the Little Mermaid being black since she is based upon Nordic lore and a white character with red hair. People get pissed when other character's are white washed and have their ethnicity changed that is the point but going the other way to make character's diverse suddenly is ok.

- - - Updated - - -


People are frequently dense. There was also a lot of bitching about Heimdall in Thor being black and Idris Elba did a marvelous job as Heimdall.

Personally I think Heimdall could be changed because he was not a central character to the storyline. So there was some give in the story and ability to change the ethnicity of his character without drastically changing his character's presence in the story. With the Little Mermaid changing her ethnicity changes the whole complexity of the story and her place within it as well as the whole structure of the backstory as a cultural influence.

Bartmanhomer
06 Jul 2019, 15:16
NO people are against Ariel the Little Mermaid being black since she is based upon Nordic lore and a white character with red hair. People get pissed when other character's are white washed and have their ethnicity changed that is the point but going the other way to make character's diverse suddenly is ok.

I really don't see any problem with a black mermaid. If Disney want a black mermaid, they should do it.

monsno_leedra
06 Jul 2019, 15:21
I really don't see any problem with a black mermaid. If Disney want a black mermaid, they should do it.

Realistically by that logic then The Princess and the Frog which is all based upon African characters and story telling should be changed to Caucasian character's because the African influence and importance of that heritage doesn't matter either. That and the strong female character of Tiana should be about a White woman and not an African woman after all why should it matter don't need original strong African Character's.

Bartmanhomer
06 Jul 2019, 15:29
Realistically by that logic then The Princess and the Frog which is all based upon African characters and story telling should be changed to Caucasian character's because the African influence and importance of that heritage doesn't matter either. That and the strong female character of Tiana should be about a White woman and not an African woman, after all,l, why should it matter don't need original strong African Character's.

I can't believe what I'm hearing. So you're saying that Disney only use Caucasian characters in their movies and TV shows but not diversitying other races because they think that is not good for their business. That's is very narrow-minded and prejudicial statement you made Monsno and I'm very disappointed and offended about that. :mad: :mad: :mad:

monsno_leedra
06 Jul 2019, 15:48
I can't believe what I'm hearing. So you're saying that Disney only use Caucasian characters in their movies and TV shows but not diversitying other races because they think that is not good for their business. That's is very narrow-minded and prejudicial statement you made Monsno and I'm very disappointed and offended about that. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Narrow minded not hardly. I'm not the one calling for taking a character that comes from a Nordic heritage has 3 movies with a white character with red hair and saying "Oh let make her black now to be diversified" just because. But hey, every little girl out there, black, white, yellow, red what ever color will know that Ariel has always been white with red hair but suddenly is now black and think this is supposed to be diversity just because it goes against every cartoon they've ever seen, every toy they've ever owned, every special they've ever seen, every sing-a-long they've ever sang-a-long with.

Bull crap read what I wrote and think about the crap your pushing in regards to black washing things in the name of diversity versus all the crap that goes down in the name of white washing all those roles. You don't need to black wash existing roles their are enough tales, stories and fables out there to make new ones and introduce new ones.

Black washing pre-existing roles only serves to show they are to lazy to do it and expect basically blacks to be to stupid to see it as anything but that. But congratulations if you support and buy it, then they don't have to try real hard to sell it or actually show you have a higher heritage to call upon. Just black wash some other White European heritage. But hell that's what Native American's and Asian's have been fighting trying to get their heritage's back and actually show their heritages in movies and cartoon's that why so much hell was raised about Moana actually being Asian Pacific in how she was displayed and not simply white washed.

But yeah,, go for Ariel being black washed no one will ever know the difference will they there never were any mermaids in typical African Lore.

Bartmanhomer
06 Jul 2019, 15:56
It sounds like you are prejudice against diversity and fear of change of by your own prejudice and ignorance coming out of your mouth. But you know what I really don't care what your viewpoints are it's pretty obvious and clear what I said don't mean anything to you because I'm too inferior to voice my truth all because of my color of my skin. :mad:

monsno_leedra
06 Jul 2019, 16:11
BMH diversity is not taking an existing character and changing its existing ethnicity it's adding new characters and expanding the presence of alternative characters and opportunities for their existence within the created universes. Simply changing existing characters to make them appear to be something else is washing them so they seem to be something they are not and trying to pass that off to deceive or manipulate the audience. But it never truly introduces diversity for the audience deep down inside knows who the character really was to begin with and what their story really was and what their history really is.

So keep your bs prejudice and fear of change crap to yourself I'm not the one who is afraid nor trying to hide behind a false paint job.

Bartmanhomer
06 Jul 2019, 16:14
BMH diversity is not taking an existing character and changing its existing ethnicity it's adding new characters and expanding the presence of alternative characters and opportunities for their existence within the created universes. Simply changing existing characters to make them appear to be something else is washing them so they seem to be something they are not and trying to pass that off to deceive or manipulate the audience. But it never truly introduces diversity for the audience deep down inside knows who the character really was to begin with and what their story really was and what their history really is.

So keep your bs prejudice and fear of change crap to yourself I'm not the one who is afraid nor trying to hide behind a false paint job.

Well we're no longer friends then if you really feel that way. I'm removing you out of my friends list in this forum.

MaskedOne
06 Jul 2019, 18:53
NO people are against Ariel the Little Mermaid being black since she is based upon Nordic lore and a white character with red hair. People get pissed when other character's are white washed and have their ethnicity changed that is the point but going the other way to make character's diverse suddenly is ok.

- - - Updated - - -



Personally I think Heimdall could be changed because he was not a central character to the storyline. So there was some give in the story and ability to change the ethnicity of his character without drastically changing his character's presence in the story. With the Little Mermaid changing her ethnicity changes the whole complexity of the story and her place within it as well as the whole structure of the backstory as a cultural influence.

My problem here can be summed up with the simple fact that Ariel is not human prior to massive application of sorcery. Her ethnicity can be summed up as merfolk. Her culture can be summed up as merfolk. Her lineage is... merfolk. Compared to the fact that she is about as closely related to humanity as Supreme Commander Thor of the Asgard Fleet (https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Thor), her skin tone is effectively irrelevant. No human culture loses by changing the complexion of a mermaid and I don't see merfolk showing up to bitch about this. Now a number of people who loved the animated versions probably will be set against the change just because to them Ariel will always be white with red hair. It's on the actress to do a good enough job to win them over. It is distinctly possible to do so, I'm old enough to remember the pre Samuel L Jackson Nick Fury. Fury was white for decades but Jackson's performance was iconic.

Bartmanhomer
06 Jul 2019, 19:05
My problem here can be summed up with the simple fact that Ariel is not human prior to massive application of sorcery. Her ethnicity can be summed up as merfolk. Her culture can be summed up as merfolk. Her lineage is... merfolk. Compared to the fact that she is about as closely related to humanity as Supreme Commander Thor of the Asgard Fleet (https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Thor), her skin tone is effectively irrelevant. No human culture loses by changing the complexion of a mermaid and I don't see merfolk showing up to bitch about this. Now a number of people who loved the animated versions probably will be set against the change just because to them Ariel will always be white with red hair. It's on the actress to do a good enough job to win them over. It is distinctly possible to do so, I'm old enough to remember the pre Samuel L Jackson Nick Fury. Fury was white for decades but Jackson's performance was iconic.

I definitely don't have any problem with the change at all. I'm fully support it and I don't care what Monsno and everybody else have to say about it. I think everybody need to quit whining and deal with it. :mad:

anubisa
06 Jul 2019, 21:44
Look, in my opinion, Disney should keep the character white. This is not because of a racial issue. It is because of the story and what Disney traditionally introduced to us as children. BMH, you were all up in arms when we were talking about Will Smith as the genie. So why is it so big that Disney make it's choices on their movies? When they make the live-action Little Mermaid, it needs to be true to the original, however, it does need to show diversification as well. I won't expect it to purely show white mermaids and mermen in the movie. However, from what I know of myth I do know that there have been asian mermaids. We just need to be calm and not judge one another and think of this in a calm manner. No judgment. It isn't our decision and if we are happy or unhappy, let it be.

Prickly Pear
07 Jul 2019, 00:03
A- She is a mermaid. Fictional. Plenty of room for interpretation. B- Ariel's ethnicity as anything but merfolk is not in any way relevant to the plot. C- They strayed one iota from the original Disney version. It doesn't cancel out the original version. D-The movie isn't even particularly true to the original story, is that offensive? I have Danish heritage, should I be offended that Disney doesn't make them obviously Danish mermaids? The original story was written by a Dane. E- Disney's main objective is to encourage as many people to see as many movies as they can churn out, and then spend lots of money on merchandise and amusement park visits. One of they ways they do this is by getting little girls to identify with the characters. It has clearly occurred to them that this works more broadly if they have diverse looking characters. F- Or maybe, just maybe, this woman had the most charisma and acting/singing talent in a vast pool of candidates.

Bartmanhomer
07 Jul 2019, 04:26
Look, in my opinion, Disney should keep the character white. This is not because of a racial issue. It is because of the story and what Disney traditionally introduced to us as children. BMH, you were all up in arms when we were talking about Will Smith as the genie. So why is it so big that Disney make it's choices on their movies? When they make the live-action Little Mermaid, it needs to be true to the original, however, it does need to show diversification as well. I won't expect it to purely show white mermaids and mermen in the movie. However, from what I know of myth I do know that there have been asian mermaids. We just need to be calm and not judge one another and think of this in a calm manner. No judgment. It isn't our decision and if we are happy or unhappy, let it be.

That's different. Will Smith being genie isn't even relevant in this thread. Like I said a black mermaid is a great Idea.

Azvanna
07 Jul 2019, 04:55
Disney has made the right move publising this before the movie came out. We can all talk about it and get it out of our systems before the actual release date. So hopefully opening night won't be over-shadowed by shock that a character people are so familiar with has completely changed in appearance. That's all this is... shock at being jolted out of the familiar.

When I think about the character, Ariel, I think of a girl peeling away her outter props (ie royal status and powerful father figure!) to chase after what she wants. The next time I watch the Little Mermaid it will be as a parent and I'm sure I'm going to be absolutely in a mess of tears with that whole parent letting go of the child thing happening! I love the way curiousity and its pitfalls is portrayed in the film not just through Ariel (think famous fork-comb!), but through Eric as well who is curious about Ariel but in a way that lets her be just as she is. The thing with curiousity is that in our discoveries, we can make assumptions as to how things must be and so often mistake what truly is. Eric was so focused on the sound of Ariel's voice, he mistook her voice for herself. A necessary mistake to make concerning growing-up.

Don't really need to be of a particular colour to portray all of that.

However, Monsno I appreciate your point about culture and its identifiable race being tied to a particular kind of narrative. Personally, I can't identify a narrative that would have to be quintessentially white. Maybe it's something you need outside eyes for?

Juniper
07 Jul 2019, 08:52
That's different. Will Smith being genie isn't even relevant in this thread. Like I said a black mermaid is a great Idea.

HOW is this different? Genie and Ariel are both fictional characters. Neither they, nor their represented races exist in the real world. They can be portrayed by absolutely anybody.

Bartmanhomer
07 Jul 2019, 09:01
HOW is this different? Genie and Ariel are both fictional characters. Neither they, nor their represented races exist in the real world. They can be portrayed by absolutely anybody.

I'm saying that Will Smith playing Genie is not even relevant because of his medicore acting and of course he can Genie can play whoever he want to play.

Prickly Pear
07 Jul 2019, 10:00
I appear to have worked myself right up about this, mostly because I was completely flabbergasted that it was even an issue. It seems like such a little stretch of the brain as to be non-existent. But here we are.

I also find myself siding with BH about Will Smith. TBH I don't see race as an issue with a fictional genie either, and given geography and history, the only real cultural problem I could scrape up with Will Smith would be his American-ness representing another culture. Which of course applies pretty broadly in any of these movies. Will Smith just happened to be filling some pretty big shoes, and I wasn't sure he was up to it, even though I generally enjoy his performances. I could see why he was in the running, I just didn't have the sense that it was spot-on casting. If he had been the first genie, no problem. Also, I can't really come up with anyone better. I see why he was on the short list.

Shahaku
07 Jul 2019, 11:38
NO people are against Ariel the Little Mermaid being black since she is based upon Nordic lore and a white character with red hair. People get pissed when other character's are white washed and have their ethnicity changed that is the point but going the other way to make character's diverse suddenly is ok.

Actually, from what I've read, the original little mermaid was green. As in, in the story written by the original author. Since I haven't read the original story myself, I'm not sure if that comes from the story or original artwork. I know the mermaid on the cover of many original copies is green. One thing Disney has attempted with these live action remakes is to incorporate more of the adult themes that they dumbed down or whitewashed from the originals. Giving the little mermaid a non white skin color actually returns some value of the original story and the foreigness of mermaids to the Danish people.

While you can argue that the humans in the story are Danes, the mermaids most certainly are not. They are a creature of myth. Plenty of creatures of myth have differing skin color, which contributed to white people believing that dark colored skin meant those people were less than human, centuries ago.

Additionally, they are changing the location from of the coast of Europe to the Caribbean. Which makes the racial change make sense as well.

ETA: the genie isn't really an issue either, because mythical creature. But. We're talking am Arab country and a genie bottle. Genie was once human. It would be a lot more likely that the genie would be dark skinned, than white. Africans traded with and traveled to the middle east fairly frequently in that time period, if I'm remembering my history correctly.

monsno_leedra
07 Jul 2019, 13:43
.. Additionally, they are changing the location from of the coast of Europe to the Caribbean. Which makes the racial change make sense as well. ..

Then let them make a movie about River Mumma the mermaid of Jamaica who is already a major character of Caribbean lore. Oh wait, that would be an actual Mermaid of Color with a legitimate heritage that could be introduced to people and actually known with legitimate lore of her own. Like I said easier to black wash an existing character than actually do true diversity introduction.

iris
07 Jul 2019, 14:31
Actually, from what I've read, the original little mermaid was green. As in, in the story written by the original author. Since I haven't read the original story myself, I'm not sure if that comes from the story or original artwork. I know the mermaid on the cover of many original copies is green. One thing Disney has attempted with these live action remakes is to incorporate more of the adult themes that they dumbed down or whitewashed from the originals. Giving the little mermaid a non white skin color actually returns some value of the original story and the foreigness of mermaids to the Danish people.

While you can argue that the humans in the story are Danes, the mermaids most certainly are not. They are a creature of myth. Plenty of creatures of myth have differing skin color, which contributed to white people believing that dark colored skin meant those people were less than human, centuries ago.

Additionally, they are changing the location from of the coast of Europe to the Caribbean. Which makes the racial change make sense as well.

ETA: the genie isn't really an issue either, because mythical creature. But. We're talking am Arab country and a genie bottle. Genie was once human. It would be a lot more likely that the genie would be dark skinned, than white. Africans traded with and traveled to the middle east fairly frequently in that time period, if I'm remembering my history correctly.
Really don't wanna get tangled in this discussion. But. Her skin is not green. He describes it something like "clear and radiant as a rose petal". No mention of what colour that petal is though (that misunderstanding might come from the statue of her which is green. It's old copper). And while she does have blue eyes in the story... the original story is already so far from the movie, I really don't see the issue. There's no human race to them, they're not human.

Shahaku
07 Jul 2019, 17:30
Then let them make a movie about River Mumma the mermaid of Jamaica who is already a major character of Caribbean lore. Oh wait, that would be an actual Mermaid of Color with a legitimate heritage that could be introduced to people and actually known with legitimate lore of her own. Like I said easier to black wash an existing character than actually do true diversity introduction.

And you completely overlooked the rest of my post. That was only a side note at the very end.


Really don't wanna get tangled in this discussion. But. Her skin is not green. He describes it something like "clear and radiant as a rose petal". No mention of what colour that petal is though (that misunderstanding might come from the statue of her which is green. It's old copper). And while she does have blue eyes in the story... the original story is already so far from the movie, I really don't see the issue. There's no human race to them, they're not human.

I'm honestly not sure. It's something that came up in a few Facebook discussions I've seen over the last few days. I do know when I Googled it, some of the books with pretty old artwork had green or something like faded teal mermaids on them.

Bartmanhomer
07 Jul 2019, 17:42
I think everybody needs to calm down and give the black mermaid a chance.

Juniper
07 Jul 2019, 19:29
I personally don't care if Ariel is black, white, asian, native american, or an alien from outer space. I was just stirring the pot.

monsno_leedra
07 Jul 2019, 19:41
And you completely overlooked the rest of my post. That was only a side note at the very end..

Honestly no I didn't overlook the rest of your post. I've focused upon the aspect of Ariel as both the Disney version and Hans Christian Anderson's input. In that regard reflection upon the Danish influence which is not painting the merfolk as anything other than being half human and appearing more human in appearance and half fish. One reference suggest silver colored hair but also suggests it might be netting or sea weed of some sort as I've not actually found a clear reference to the youngest daughter's hair nor is she ever given an actual name. But her biggest purpose per Han's Christian Anderson's story is actually the seeking of a human soul through marriage which is somewhat portrayed in the Disney movie. Yet Anderson's Mermaid never achieve's that and is turned into an air spirit and will spend 300 years where she will possibly gain that soul upon doing good deeds at the conclusion of that time helping people. Vice being turned into sea foam like the rest of her mermaid sisters upon the expiration of their 300 year life span.

So while there is some strangeness to the Danish lore of the Merfolk the story upon which the Little Mermaid is actually Drawn is more human like in its usage of the merfolk in appearance and relationship to humanity. Where it differ's is the difference between the immortal "soul" between the two which Anderson goes to some length to stress and clarify. A position which is also carried over into the Disney movie as well though not to the extent that the Christian overtones and immortal soul influences are present. Even to the sacrifice that Ariel (youngest daughter) is willing to make to achieve that immortal soul / marriage.

That is the heritage that is passed via the movie and Anderson's influence upon it through the Danish story telling. Skin color played no significant role in the story at any point.

anubisa
07 Jul 2019, 20:16
That's it! I'm sick of feeling attacked. I don't give a crap what color the little mermaid is. I was just saying that it would be nice for them to stick to the traditional. Also, people have their own damned opinions and just because you don't agree does not mean you have to get upset with them. I'm not going to stand by feeling judged by anyone just because I want to speak what I think.

Juniper
07 Jul 2019, 20:40
Who's attacking you? I don't see anyone attacking anyone. Just people stating differing opinions.

anubisa
07 Jul 2019, 22:13
Who's attacking you? I don't see anyone attacking anyone. Just people stating differing opinions.

I'm sorry Juniper. Sometimes it comes off with these discussions like people can be a little judgmental of others opinions and I feel like if you do not agree with a person's statement, then the best thing is to agree to disagree. There shouldn't be a big production made of it.

Rae'ya
08 Jul 2019, 03:06
So... I actually do have an issue with a black Ariel. Not because they've changed her skin colour or 'ethnicity' (and I agree with the sentiment that there is no ethnicity for merfolk)... but because they are presumably going to change her hair colour. Which may seem trivial to some folks. BUT... part of what was so outstanding about the animated Ariel was that she's a redhead. A minority redhead in a world of pretty blonde and brunette princesses. And when we look at the Disney Princesses as a whole, we have diversity... they are all different, with different skin colours, ethnicities, hair colours and backgrounds. As a group they represent how okay it is to be different and diverse. As a group they celebrate diversity. Every live action film so far has chosen protagonists that are true to the animated protagonists, except this one. So now we have lost our pale carrot top princess and only have pretty blondes, brunettes and ethnic princesses. And that is my issue.

Also, I work with several natural redheads who are absolutely 100% offended that the redheaded hero of their childhood has been changed. People who were teased and bullied for being redheaded as kids, who had an animated character to look up to and relate to and dream that red hair and pale skin is beautiful. And sure, it's just a fictional character who means nothing in the grand scheme of things... and Disney have no obligation to make the live action films resemble the animated ones. But it's kinda a kick in the teeth to some folks and I support their right to be upset by the decision.

(And please lets not argue about how it is more acceptable according to the original stories blah blah blah... Cinderella arguably has Chinese origins and they didn't cast her as an Asian girl, did they?)

thalassa
08 Jul 2019, 03:22
Mermaids are an imaginary creature. Ocean "mermaid" type creatures abound in most cultures with a sea or riverine connection. And still, they are an imaginary, made-up creature. Mermaid society is a made up phenomenon. The Little Mermaid is a story written by a dead guy about an imaginary creature that Disney turned into an animated musical that was very much a deviation from the original. To care about the skin color of an imaginary, made up creature in a made-up adaption of an adaption of a story is stupid. I don't see these people bitching that the whole thing isn't being produced in Danish. Then we can talk about "the original."

Save the outrage for Mulan. They got rid of Mushu. He's the 2nd most important character in the dang movie--the catalyst for everything she goes on to do. That movie can do without the romance and still keep the plot...but it needs the dragon.

monsno_leedra
08 Jul 2019, 06:13
Mermaids are an imaginary creature. Ocean "mermaid" type creatures abound in most cultures with a sea or riverine connection. And still, they are an imaginary, made-up creature. Mermaid society is a made up phenomenon. The Little Mermaid is a story written by a dead guy about an imaginary creature that Disney turned into an animated musical that was very much a deviation from the original. To care about the skin color of an imaginary, made up creature in a made-up adaption of an adaption of a story is stupid. I don't see these people bitching that the whole thing isn't being produced in Danish. Then we can talk about "the original."

Save the outrage for Mulan. They got rid of Mushu. He's the 2nd most important character in the dang movie--the catalyst for everything she goes on to do. That movie can do without the romance and still keep the plot...but it needs the dragon.

I though Mushu was still in the live action Mulan though his presence was supposed to be greatly reduced to all most nothing. That's what some of the "reports" on the film said anyway that I had seen. But otherwise the story has been changed quite a bit from the original it seems.

Prickly Pear
08 Jul 2019, 11:52
Here's another thought-maybe another thread.

It's art. In fact, being the Disney version, I would argue that it falls into a category of global art. Art is meant to be explored and interpreted. Hence many, many versions of Romeo and Juliet, Pride and Prejudice and so on. Frankly, I don't really see anything wrong with a nude roller-disco version in Sanskrit. It could be a train wreck. It could be a revelation. It could be entertaining and fun. Zombie mermaids, gang mermaids, furry mermaids. Whatever.

Hawkfeathers
08 Jul 2019, 19:24
When I heard about it, the first thing that crossed my mind was the expression "fish-belly white" (usually used somewhat jokingly to refer to a very light person with no tan in the summer), and I thought it was ironically funny to have a darker "fish" character. Other than that I don't see the big deal, except for the red hair as Rae'ya said. They should leave that alone.

kalynraye
09 Jul 2019, 06:33
I think it's awesome they are recasting Ariel as a girl of color. I know there's quite a bit of sadness that we are loosing a red haired princess and Ariel has always been my favorite princess especially as a child. However us redheads have an even more badass princess and her name is Merida! She is incredibly independent and all about controlling her own fate and guess what?!?!?!?! Her mother is alive and in her story!! And best of all a man doesn't save her.

Bartmanhomer
09 Jul 2019, 06:51
I think it's awesome they are recasting Ariel as a girl of color. I know there's quite a bit of sadness that we are loosing a red haired princess and Ariel has always been my favorite princess especially as a child. However us redheads have an even more badass princess and her name is Merida! She is incredibly independent and all about controlling her own fate and guess what?!?!?!?! Her mother is alive and in her story!! And best of all a man doesn't save her.

How is this sad? You could still see her and her red hair in the cartoon version.

kalynraye
09 Jul 2019, 07:17
How is this sad? You could still see her and her red hair in the cartoon version.

It's sad Bart because there will not be a red haired live action princess. I am more then aware I can watch the cartoon thank you very much and maybe just maybe you need to slow your roll on being so defensive all the time. As I stated I am thrilled that she has been recast to a woman of color but as a redhead I am allowed to be a little sad the red hair is gone!

As I also stated we do have a fantastic red haired princess by the name of Merida from Brave who in my opinion is way more of a role model then most Disney princess's. I'd rather be a Merida any day but as a little girl who loved Ariel because she had red hair that child side of me wishes she had red hair but change is part of life and I'm all for it especially if it means giving little girls of color a princess of their very own!

Bartmanhomer
09 Jul 2019, 07:35
It's sad Bart because there will not be a red haired live action princess. I am more then aware I can watch the cartoon thank you very much and maybe just maybe you need to slow your roll on being so defensive all the time. As I stated I am thrilled that she has been recast to a woman of color but as a redhead I am allowed to be a little sad the red hair is gone!

As I also stated we do have a fantastic red haired princess by the name of Merida from Brave who in my opinion is way more of a role model then most Disney princess's. I'd rather be a Merida any day but as a little girl who loved Ariel because she had red hair that child side of me wishes she had red hair but change is part of life and I'm all for it especially if it means giving little girls of color a princess of their very own!

I'm not being defensive and I think you and everybody else is taking this way out of proportion. It's just a movie.

kalynraye
09 Jul 2019, 08:06
I'm not being defensive and I think you and everybody else is taking this way out of proportion. It's just a movie.

"I just don't understand the logic and rationality of everybody get butthurt over a black mermaid. I don't have any problems having a black mermaid and I'm black myself. Like really? There's black mermaids in the TV Show Siren and no one didn't complain about that. But when it come to Disney. *facepalm* This whole complaining and whining is very ridiculous."

Pretty sure the person who started this thread was you, and if your not really interested in other people's opinions then don't ask for them because when you start a thread like this that's basically what you are doing.

I'm also not defensive, you asked a question and I responded.

Bartmanhomer
09 Jul 2019, 11:14
"I just don't understand the logic and rationality of everybody get butthurt over a black mermaid. I don't have any problems having a black mermaid and I'm black myself. Like really? There's black mermaids in the TV Show Siren and no one didn't complain about that. But when it come to Disney. *facepalm* This whole complaining and whining is very ridiculous."

Pretty sure the person who started this thread was you, and if your not really interested in other people's opinions then don't ask for them because when you start a thread like this that's basically what you are doing.

I'm also not defensive, you asked a question and I responded.

First of all this whole thing is ridiculous and I have every right to post it. Second don't be twisting all of this on me, I don't have a problem with the black mermaid at all. Third the whole controversy is just as ridiculous as an anti-vaxxer believes that vaccination can cause autism. I lost one friend in this forum for this ridiculous controversy please don't be #2.

Tylluan Penry
09 Jul 2019, 13:47
I don't have a problem with a dark skinned, dark haired Little Mermaid. Just as i didn't have a problem with the Bollywood version of Pride and Prejudice - thought it was great. And there was one memorable version of Wuthering Heights where Heathcliff was clearly dark skinned and dark haired - something I had long suspected from reading the book.

Hollywood has, for a long time, got away with portraying foreign characters with white, English speaking actors. Even when the characters were neither white, nor, originally English speaking. All with ended up with was heavy make-up and bad accents.

Sit back, enjoy this new version of The Little Mermaid, and see how it turns out. You may be very pleasantly surprised.

P S One of my favourite games is trying to work out how famous films would sound if they were made in Wales.
Like Apollo 13... 'Huston? What it is, see, we got a bit of a problem.' ;)
May not make sense to you, but most Welsh people think it's hysterical.

Bartmanhomer
09 Jul 2019, 14:27
I don't have a problem with a dark skinned, dark haired Little Mermaid. Just as i didn't have a problem with the Bollywood version of Pride and Prejudice - thought it was great. And there was one memorable version of Wuthering Heights where Heathcliff was clearly dark skinned and dark haired - something I had long suspected from reading the book.

Hollywood has, for a long time, got away with portraying foreign characters with white, English speaking actors. Even when the characters were neither white, nor, originally English speaking. All with ended up with was heavy make-up and bad accents.

Sit back, enjoy this new version of The Little Mermaid, and see how it turns out. You may be very pleasantly surprised.

P S One of my favourite games is trying to work out how famous films would sound if they were made in Wales.
Like Apollo 13... 'Huston? What it is, see, we got a bit of a problem.' ;)
May not make sense to you, but most Welsh people think it's hysterical.

I think people need to be more upset about putting immigrants in cages at US camps also separating kids from families rather than a movie especially a cartoon movie that going to be live action.

MaskedOne
09 Jul 2019, 14:43
I think people need to be more upset about putting immigrants in cages at US camps also separating kids from families rather than a movie especially a cartoon movie that going to be live action.

And in general people (even the ones who disagree with this casting choice) agree with you. With that said, calm down before you actually start picking fights with people that agree with you. The vast majority of people responding to this thread either have no problem with the actress selected for this movie or have very little problem with the selection. Your handling of the issue though will start up conflicts that I will have to end and I'm not going to thank you when that happens. Let the overwhelming majority of people who approve of Disney's choice agree with you and then move on.

Bartmanhomer
09 Jul 2019, 14:47
I'm not picking any fights from this. I was just expressing my honest opinion about this whole brew-ha-ha. But you know what I'm going to drop this and move on.

Rae'ya
10 Jul 2019, 03:57
How is this sad? You could still see her and her red hair in the cartoon version.

Sure I can. And I will because The Little Mermaid was always one of my favourite Disney films. But using your own logic in retort, you can watch a black mermaid in Siren, so what's the big deal?


First of all this whole thing is ridiculous and I have every right to post it. Second don't be twisting all of this on me, I don't have a problem with the black mermaid at all. Third the whole controversy is just as ridiculous as an anti-vaxxer believes that vaccination can cause autism. I lost one friend in this forum for this ridiculous controversy please don't be #2.

Most people who are against this decision don't have a problem with black MERMAID... they're disappointed about a black ARIEL. This is not about race. It's not about mermaids. It's not about mythology or folklore or the retelling of stories. It's about an established iconic character that has been known and loved for a very long time. So it's perfectly okay for people to have an opinion that opposes yours. And it's perfectly okay for people to be shocked, disappointed, concerned or whatever. And it's equally okay for people to be apathetic or to look at the whole thing with disdain. But seeing as you have your own opinion on the matter and are the one who started the whole debate, are you admitting that you are yourself, ridiculous? Because we wouldn't be having this ridiculous argument if you hadn't bought it up. So if you aren't prepared for a healthy debate and dissenting opinions, you probably shouldn't post controversial topics and claim that they are about race when they clearly aren't.


As I also stated we do have a fantastic red haired princess by the name of Merida from Brave who in my opinion is way more of a role model then most Disney princess's. I'd rather be a Merida any day but as a little girl who loved Ariel because she had red hair that child side of me wishes she had red hair but change is part of life and I'm all for it especially if it means giving little girls of color a princess of their very own!

They already have one. Tiana from The Princess and the Frog is a woman of colour and she is frankly the most awesome of the Disney princesses. Determined, hard working, compromising, sassy, intelligent, loyal, not at all shallow and ultimately very successful in life. All without being a brat and without throwing a single tantrum that puts her family at risk. Tiana is a good role model and I'm looking forward to THAT live action film.

Bartmanhomer
10 Jul 2019, 04:22
Sure I can. And I will because The Little Mermaid was always one of my favourite Disney films. But using your own logic in retort, you can watch a black mermaid in Siren, so what's the big deal?



Most people who are against this decision don't have a problem with black MERMAID... they're disappointed about a black ARIEL. This is not about race. It's not about mermaids. It's not about mythology or folklore or the retelling of stories. It's about an established iconic character that has been known and loved for a very long time. So it's perfectly okay for people to have an opinion that opposes yours. And it's perfectly okay for people to be shocked, disappointed, concerned or whatever. And it's equally okay for people to be apathetic or to look at the whole thing with disdain. But seeing as you have your own opinion on the matter and are the one who started the whole debate, are you admitting that you are yourself, ridiculous? Because we wouldn't be having this ridiculous argument if you hadn't bought it up. So if you aren't prepared for a healthy debate and dissenting opinions, you probably shouldn't post controversial topics and claim that they are about race when they clearly aren't.



They already have one. Tiana from The Princess and the Frog is a woman of colour and she is frankly the most awesome of the Disney princesses. Determined, hard working, compromising, sassy, intelligent, loyal, not at all shallow and ultimately very successful in life. All without being a brat and without throwing a single tantrum that puts her family at risk. Tiana is a good role model and I'm looking forward to THAT live action film.

I'm not going to waste my energy arguing and debating this ridiculous controversy anymore. It seems like everybody is extremely sensitive and making a big deal for not having a black mermaid in the live action movie. I'm done here.

Tylluan Penry
10 Jul 2019, 04:54
I think people need to be more upset about putting immigrants in cages at US camps also separating kids from families rather than a movie especially a cartoon movie that going to be live action.

BMH - stay on track please, will you? You started this thread. I more or less agree with you and you tell me I ought to be more upset about something else.

No way to run a discussion...

Thorbjorn
10 Jul 2019, 06:10
...Idris Elba did a marvelous job as Heimdall.

Idris Elba could do a marvelous job of portraying a dust bunny as far as I'm concerned! :XD laugh:

volcaniclastic
10 Jul 2019, 06:14
Idris Elba could do a marvelous job of portraying a dust bunny as far as I'm concerned! :XD laugh:

*Agrees*

;)

Thorbjorn
10 Jul 2019, 07:02
...People who were teased and bullied for being redheaded as kids, who had an animated character to look up to and relate to and dream that red hair and pale skin is beautiful. ...

Taking a detour off the rails for a moment... why do redheads/gingers get looked-down on? :=S: I think ginger men are absolutely stunning. Prince Harry is a hunk, I've done business with red-headed guys that made my toes curl. Red-headed women too... Gates McFadden (Dr. Crusher) from Star Trek TNG, for example, is gorgeous.

- - - Updated - - -


Mermaids are an imaginary creature. Ocean "mermaid" type creatures abound in most cultures with a sea or riverine connection. And still, they are an imaginary, made-up creature. Mermaid society is a made up phenomenon. The Little Mermaid is a story written by a dead guy about an imaginary creature that Disney turned into an animated musical that was very much a deviation from the original. To care about the skin color of an imaginary, made up creature in a made-up adaption of an adaption of a story is stupid. I don't see these people bitching that the whole thing isn't being produced in Danish. Then we can talk about "the original."

Save the outrage for Mulan. They got rid of Mushu. He's the 2nd most important character in the dang movie--the catalyst for everything she goes on to do. That movie can do without the romance and still keep the plot...but it needs the dragon.

Maybe this goes to show our inability, in too many cases, to separate real life from fantasy.

Tylluan Penry
10 Jul 2019, 13:56
[QUOTE=Thorbjorn;244748]Taking a detour off the rails for a moment... why do redheads/gingers get looked-down on? :=S: I think ginger men are absolutely stunning. Prince Harry is a hunk, I've done business with red-headed guys that made my toes curl. Red-headed women too... Gates McFadden (Dr. Crusher) from Star Trek TNG, for example, is gorgeous.

- - - Updated - - -


In northern Europe, red hair denoted kingship and some early kings actually dyed their hair to support their claims!
And yes, red headed men are gorgeous - Mr Penry had fiery red hair when he was younger (and I had red hair too, so we looked a bit as though we'd come from the same tribe!)

volcaniclastic
10 Jul 2019, 15:36
Taking a detour off the rails for a moment... why do redheads/gingers get looked-down on? :=S: I think ginger men are absolutely stunning. Prince Harry is a hunk, I've done business with red-headed guys that made my toes curl. Red-headed women too... Gates McFadden (Dr. Crusher) from Star Trek TNG, for example, is gorgeous.



I was under the impression it had something to do with sin and the Bible.

Juniper
10 Jul 2019, 18:44
So, do we know what hair color the new Ariel will have? I mean, people of color can have red hair too. Even naturally.

Eleanor
10 Jul 2019, 20:42
Taking a detour off the rails for a moment... why do redheads/gingers get looked-down on? :=S: I think ginger men are absolutely stunning. Prince Harry is a hunk, I've done business with red-headed guys that made my toes curl. Red-headed women too... Gates McFadden (Dr. Crusher) from Star Trek TNG, for example, is gorgeous.

My boyfriend is like half-ginger. He has dark blond hair and a ginger beard. I always call him The Daywalker after the South Park episode :P

Rae'ya
11 Jul 2019, 05:15
Taking a detour off the rails for a moment... why do redheads/gingers get looked-down on? :=S: I think ginger men are absolutely stunning. Prince Harry is a hunk, I've done business with red-headed guys that made my toes curl. Red-headed women too... Gates McFadden (Dr. Crusher) from Star Trek TNG, for example, is gorgeous.

In Australia, it depends on what colour red you are. Ginger kids are teased really badly, and certainly were when I was a kid (not by me!), especially if they were also pale with freckles. Strawberry blonde and dark coppery reds don't cop it quite so badly. Age also matters... people seem to love red toddlers, but school age kids and young teens have a really hard time. Then as adults the natural redheads die their hair brown while some of us brunettes die it red! Personally I think there are some really stunning redheads, and it's a colour that ages very well as people mature. But I guess it's our experiences in our formative years that affect us the most sometimes.

Heka
11 Jul 2019, 05:43
This was fun to read.

I think a lot of the red head thing comes from South Park in modern culture (gingervitis), but before that, idk.

I'm a bit disappointed that Ariel is black, but tbh I'm far more scared that they're gonna screw up live-action Lion King.

and finally:
Red heads get Merida (way more boss b*tch)
Northerners get Elsa/Ana (not a great trade but it's there)
Blacks get Tiana (omg qween)
Maori/Polynesians get Moana (best. ever)
Asians get Mulan (i'm shook about this Mushu relevation)
Arabs get Jasmine (again not an amazing trade but something at least)
Theres a few cultures they have missed, but they're get there. Too busy making money out of live action remakes and controversy!

Rae'ya
11 Jul 2019, 17:14
This was fun to read.

I think a lot of the red head thing comes from South Park in modern culture (gingervitis), but before that, idk.

I'm a bit disappointed that Ariel is black, but tbh I'm far more scared that they're gonna screw up live-action Lion King.

and finally:
Red heads get Merida (way more boss b*tch)
Northerners get Elsa/Ana (not a great trade but it's there)
Blacks get Tiana (omg qween)
Maori/Polynesians get Moana (best. ever)
Asians get Mulan (i'm shook about this Mushu relevation)
Arabs get Jasmine (again not an amazing trade but something at least)
Theres a few cultures they have missed, but they're get there. Too busy making money out of live action remakes and controversy!

Plus Pochahontas. Then Belle, Cinderella, Aurora, Snow White, Rapunzel and I think Vanelope counts too. And the non-princesses, most of whom are not Caucasian (Esmerelda, Alice, Lilo, Kida, the curvy chick in El Dorado and then Jane). In balance a good half of the Disney female protagonists and most of the supporting females are not white. The boys on the other hand... now that's a disappointingly boring and superficial lineup.

thalassa
14 Jul 2019, 16:53
Meg Meg Meg Meg Meg

As in Megara, princess of Thebes


Also, most snarky and bad-assed, semi-villian-turned-good female protagonist in the *only* Disney princess film where the "princess" is a boy (hello, Hercules) and the girl takes the secondary, traditionally male Disney role. Seriously, the amount of subversion in Hercules is seriously overlooked. Meg isn't "untainted goods" (hence why she owes Hades), Phil is well...a FREAKING SATYR...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOL-EJZjmp0

Thorbjorn
15 Jul 2019, 06:23
I was under the impression it had something to do with sin and the Bible.

Really!? I never heard of that, but I don't doubt it.

B. de Corbin
15 Jul 2019, 08:09
Black mermaid? Somebody decided to make a crap sammich, and everybody wants to take a bite. Why?

White people's problems. Get a life - there's actual, real bad shist going on you could be getting all hot & bothered about.

Sean R. R.
15 Jul 2019, 23:23
there's actual, real bad shist going on you could be getting all hot & bothered about.

Sure, but that isn't what's being discussed here.

Every discussion has its place and that's what forums in general are for. Pointing out the banality of the subject compared to other things (which I personally agree with you) doesn't add anything to the discussion and could potentially undermine the efforts put towards the argumentation of the members actually participating in it.

My 2 cents: I think it's more about changing the "ethnicity" (in quotation marks, since merfolk don't necessarily have ethnicity) of an already established character. To add to that, Ariel does become human at some point, meaning she does have an established human ethnicity. Without going into the details and the folkloric context of merfolk, just the fact that the character: 1. Is established in popular culture; 2. Has a Disney canonical ethnicity; 3. Is rather Eurocentric as, according to the original film, Atlantica is near Norway; means there is clear room for controversy regarding her ethnicity.

Personally I'm not a fan of Disney, and I couldn't care less what they do with their characters, but the fact that there's controversy doesn't surprise me at all.

B. de Corbin
16 Jul 2019, 07:07
Sure, but that isn't what's being discussed here.

Every discussion has its place and that's what forums in general are for. Pointing out the banality of the subject compared to other things (which I personally agree with you) doesn't add anything to the discussion and could potentially undermine the efforts put towards the argumentation of the members actually participating in it.

Sorry!

It seems I've damaged the integrity of this forum by stating the opinion that a debte over the color of a fantasy character is a tempest in a teapot, minus the tempest and without the teapot.

I'll try to keep my radical opinions under control.

MaskedOne
16 Jul 2019, 07:46
My 2 cents: I think it's more about changing the "ethnicity" (in quotation marks, since merfolk don't necessarily have ethnicity) of an already established character. To add to that, Ariel does become human at some point, meaning she does have an established human ethnicity.

Only in the absolute loosest possible sense. Ethnicity (https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/ethnicity) is more than just race. Being transformed into a pale redhead does not actually establish a cultural, linguistic or historic tie. It just means that you've been turned into a pale redhead. Now if the Little Mermaid was an origin myth explaining the existence of red hair in Europe and claiming that all redheads link back to this mermaid who became human then sure I'll buy this argument. Sure, she still isn't personally of the ethnic group in question except via marriage but her exact features would now be relevant in a wider context. I'm pretty sure that we aren't dealing with an origin myth here though and for a tale of love bridging massive divides, Ariel being a pale redhead is effectively redundant.


Now changing her appearance from Disney canon, sure that will annoy people. It's on the movie to sell this as a workable change. It might, it might not. I could attempt to muster up concern but I'm a Star Wars fan of over 20 years. Disney expunged the EU with a wealth of fun characters and a galaxy where you could actually see the accomplishments of the Rebel Alliance and...
Gave me Last Jedi.

If people don't find something more compelling to ***** about than Ariel not being a pale redhead then I'm not going to exert myself finding excuses to care. Disney has a wealth of ways to screw with old canon in any of its properties and this is far lighter than what they did to SW.

Hawkfeathers
16 Jul 2019, 17:35
Sorry!

It seems I've damaged the integrity of this forum by stating the opinion that a debte over the color of a fantasy character is a tempest in a teapot, minus the tempest and without the teapot.

I'll try to keep my radical opinions under control.

Nah, the teapot is in Beauty and the Beast! Different story altogether! :)

Oshii
19 Jul 2019, 13:37
are there already any concept art, pictures or teaser trailers for this? I'd love to see them. I probably won't have any opinion either way since I don't give any farts in space about any of the live action remakes, but I think a black skinned red haired Ariel would be super adorable, if not stunning.

Side question. Why do they give merfolk hair? They're under water. Wouldn't hair get in the way, and slow them down? Unless maybe it's just like otter or beaver fur???
Just saying. Even Olympic swimmers have been known to shave most of their bodies and wear caps.