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View Full Version : Celebrating Columbus Day; What's it really about?



Bartmanhomer
14 Oct 2019, 09:00
Some people still call Columbus Day even after the horrible truth what Christopher Columbus did to the Native Anericans. Also they don't teach you anything like that at schools. That's the strange part about it. :confused:

anubisa
14 Oct 2019, 17:07
You know, I probably sound callous and I am sorry but he did discover the America's. The past is the past. I'm not saying what he did is right, but let it go. We need to at least credit him for discovering the America's. You can disagree with me and again I am sorry if you think I am callous. I really am not trying to be. I am part Cherokee Indian, but in my view, we can't change the past. We can only live in the present and look to the future. And yes, certain people thought they were better than others so they did terrible things to others. Again we can't do anything. Ruminating in hate won't change a damned thing.

Bartmanhomer
14 Oct 2019, 17:23
You know, I probably sound callous and I am sorry but he did discover the America's. The past is the past. I'm not saying what he did is right, but let it go. We need to at least credit him for discovering the America's. You can disagree with me and again I am sorry if you think I am callous. I really am not trying to be. I am part Cherokee Indian, but in my view, we can't change the past. We can only live in the present and look to the future. And yes, certain people thought they were better than others so they did terrible things to others. Again we can't do anything. Ruminating in hate won't change a damned thing.

Sorry but Native Americans discovered America not Christopher Columbus. Whatever they teach you at your school, they were dead wrong. Look I'm not here to debate this and what I'm telling is real facts.

volcaniclastic
14 Oct 2019, 17:45
You know, I probably sound callous and I am sorry but he did discover the America's. The past is the past. I'm not saying what he did is right, but let it go. We need to at least credit him for discovering the America's. You can disagree with me and again I am sorry if you think I am callous. I really am not trying to be. I am part Cherokee Indian, but in my view, we can't change the past. We can only live in the present and look to the future. And yes, certain people thought they were better than others so they did terrible things to others. Again we can't do anything. Ruminating in hate won't change a damned thing.

I wouldn't call you callous. I'd call you ignorant. Christopher Columbus was a privileged colonialist who thought he found India.

Thanks to him, and people like him, indigenous peoples lost their families, their cultures, their language, and their lives. It's not in the past - this is still happening today in many regions of North America.

Just twenty years ago, we were still sending children to residential schools in Canada. Just 50 years ago, we were assigning the Inuit numbers instead of names. Just 70 years ago, we were conducting experiments on indigenous people and infecting them with various diseases for the sake of science.

Just because you're a quarter Cherokee doesn't give you the right to speak on behalf of all indigenous peoples across North America. The trauma is still very alive and very real for people who lost their siblings, aunties, mothers, and grandmothers to colonialism.

anubisa
14 Oct 2019, 18:12
I wouldn't call you callous. I'd call you ignorant. Christopher Columbus was a privileged colonialist who thought he found India.

Thanks to him, and people like him, indigenous peoples lost their families, their cultures, their language, and their lives. It's not in the past - this is still happening today in many regions of North America.

Just twenty years ago, we were still sending children to residential schools in Canada. Just 50 years ago, we were assigning the Inuit numbers instead of names. Just 70 years ago, we were conducting experiments on indigenous people and infecting them with various diseases for the sake of science.

Just because you're a quarter Cherokee doesn't give you the right to speak on behalf of all indigenous peoples across North America. The trauma is still very alive and very real for people who lost their siblings, aunties, mothers, and grandmothers to colonialism.

And I didn't say that I was speaking for all indigenous peoples because I am 1/4 Cherokee. And I am not ignorant. I'm not saying bury the damned past. I'm not saying celebrate a man that did what he did to peoples that he thought lesser than him. I'm just saying that the man discovered the America's. We know what he did, but let's put it behind us. We can't fix it now. I feel like I'm being called out is because I just want to make peace. There will never be a way to undo what is done. No one is asking to forget the past. So I'm sorry if you think I'm ignorant, but I wasn't trying to appear that way.

volcaniclastic
14 Oct 2019, 22:33
And I didn't say that I was speaking for all indigenous peoples because I am 1/4 Cherokee. And I am not ignorant. I'm not saying bury the damned past. I'm not saying celebrate a man that did what he did to peoples that he thought lesser than him. I'm just saying that the man discovered the America's. We know what he did, but let's put it behind us. We can't fix it now. I feel like I'm being called out is because I just want to make peace. There will never be a way to undo what is done. No one is asking to forget the past. So I'm sorry if you think I'm ignorant, but I wasn't trying to appear that way.

"The past is the past. I'm not saying what he did is right, but let it go."

...is exactly the same as forgetting it ever existed.

And on that note, Christopher Columbus wasn't even the first European to land on north american soil. Leif Erikson did several hundred years prior.

Your land was founded on slavery, as was mine. It's not something we should just "put behind us".

By asking to put the past behind us, you are dismissing the thousands of misplaced indigenous peoples, their cultures, the grief they feel inter-generationally at this loss.

You aren't making peace. You started your previous post with "I know this is callous, but..." and it doesn't excuse you in the slightest. Apologizing and then saying an inappropriate thing doesn't make the thing any less better. You just want to voice an opinion and have no discussion to the contrary if we as an entire forum don't agree with you.

Hawkfeathers
15 Oct 2019, 12:54
I'm 50% Italian-American (2nd generation on my mother's side) and even we knew Columbus wasn't a great guy. I'm all for having an Indigenous People's Day, as long as there's a comparable Italian-American day to have parades and, above all, feasts!

faye_cat
15 Oct 2019, 16:27
We may not be able to fix what he did but we can fix the fact that the USA has a holiday for someone who never even stepped foot in USA. Let alone someone who was directly involved in so many atrocities.

I love the fact that more and more people are adopting this holiday.

monsno_leedra
16 Oct 2019, 03:09
To me to be honest the average person has no more knowledge about the history and atrocities committed by the Indigenous peoples against each other than they do about those committed by Christobal Columbo. So all this hype that is being spread about the slavery, genocide and such due to Columbus as an excuse to end that holiday existed upon the "America's" prior to his arrival.

There are recorded legend's of tribe's and nation's at war with entire groups being wiped out. Tales of raids where the dead left trails for days as they fled. Groups being pushed from one area to another by invading nations / tribes. Slavery existed in its own form in the taking of prisoners of war and selling of property. All of this occurring both before the arrival of the first Europeans and after the arrival of the Europeans. Through out the America's, ranging from the Southern America's to the North American' land mass.

That is not to remove the plague's that arrived with the introduction of European based diseases. That is not to deny the influence's of Christianity and the idea that anyone who was not "Saved" could be placed into a new form of slavery. Heck, it's not even to deny the fact that later European people's used biological warfare against native population's via the form of say "blanket's" with smallpox for instance.

This idea that seem's to be endorsed by so many people supporting the Indigenous Peoples Day and removing Columbus Day when you talk to them almost reeks of the same idea that many have of an Native Pantheon of gods & Goddesses. Endorsing this idea yet having no true idea of the nature or history of the Indigenous people's and just how many actual Nation's or tribes make up that category within the US alone much less the America's. But they sure focus on the supposed atrocities they want to attribute to Columbus' influence's. I say supposed for he made 4 trips and with each trip more and more "Government", "Business" and "Religion" in the form of people being brought in. Each seeking to turn a profit in their own form and purpose.

Personally though I always though if we were going to have a holiday it would have been better to have one named after Amerigo Vespucci. Figure the America's were named after him.

MaskedOne
17 Oct 2019, 08:30
To me to be honest the average person has no more knowledge about the history and atrocities committed by the Indigenous peoples against each other than they do about those committed by Christobal Columbo. So all this hype that is being spread about the slavery, genocide and such due to Columbus as an excuse to end that holiday existed upon the "America's" prior to his arrival.

There are recorded legend's of tribe's and nation's at war with entire groups being wiped out. Tales of raids where the dead left trails for days as they fled. Groups being pushed from one area to another by invading nations / tribes. Slavery existed in its own form in the taking of prisoners of war and selling of property. All of this occurring both before the arrival of the first Europeans and after the arrival of the Europeans. Through out the America's, ranging from the Southern America's to the North American' land mass.

That is not to remove the plague's that arrived with the introduction of European based diseases. That is not to deny the influence's of Christianity and the idea that anyone who was not "Saved" could be placed into a new form of slavery. Heck, it's not even to deny the fact that later European people's used biological warfare against native population's via the form of say "blanket's" with smallpox for instance.

This idea that seem's to be endorsed by so many people supporting the Indigenous Peoples Day and removing Columbus Day when you talk to them almost reeks of the same idea that many have of an Native Pantheon of gods & Goddesses. Endorsing this idea yet having no true idea of the nature or history of the Indigenous people's and just how many actual Nation's or tribes make up that category within the US alone much less the America's. But they sure focus on the supposed atrocities they want to attribute to Columbus' influence's. I say supposed for he made 4 trips and with each trip more and more "Government", "Business" and "Religion" in the form of people being brought in. Each seeking to turn a profit in their own form and purpose.

Personally though I always though if we were going to have a holiday it would have been better to have one named after Amerigo Vespucci. Figure the America's were named after him.

I think I would be more tolerant of Columbus Day if Columbus himself was not a brutal ass that Spain removed from his role as a governor and stuck in a cell (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/07/books.spain). When Colonial era Spain decides to live out the trope of "Evil has Standards" because your unnecessary brutality is bad for business then I don't see much need to celebrate you today. Yes, history is full of people that really don't fare well under inspection by modern eyes but Columbus was so pointlessly brutal that his own King and Queen decided he was a problem so I don't really feel a need to be lenient in my views on him. The irritating thing is that while he was never allowed to govern again, Spain eventually set him free.

The native peoples of the Americas were not by any means moral paragons but I generally gives civilizations more leeway for bad behavior before my judgemental bastard streak appears then I do individuals. I'd rather give the day to the native peoples than to a man who was unnecessarily brutal by the standards of his time and well and truly deserving a lifetime stay in a small concrete box if not a firing squad by the standards of ours.

Vespucci merits more recognition anyway for realizing that the Americas are new continents.

monsno_leedra
17 Oct 2019, 11:13
I think I would be more tolerant of Columbus Day if Columbus himself was not a brutal ass that Spain removed from his role as a governor and stuck in a cell (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/07/books.spain). When Colonial era Spain decides to live out the trope of "Evil has Standards" because your unnecessary brutality is bad for business then I don't see much need to celebrate you today. Yes, history is full of people that really don't fare well under inspection by modern eyes but Columbus was so pointlessly brutal that his own King and Queen decided he was a problem so I don't really feel a need to be lenient in my views on him. The irritating thing is that while he was never allowed to govern again, Spain eventually set him free.

The native peoples of the Americas were not by any means moral paragons but I generally gives civilizations more leeway for bad behavior before my judgemental bastard streak appears then I do individuals. I'd rather give the day to the native peoples than to a man who was unnecessarily brutal by the standards of his time and well and truly deserving a lifetime stay in a small concrete box if not a firing squad by the standards of ours.

Vespucci merits more recognition anyway for realizing that the Americas are new continents.

Personally I think the problem is Columbus Day is not about honoring his time as governor but about being the explorer, navigator and just what it took to lead an expedition into the unknown. Overcoming the fear, the unknown, the loss of one of his ships, potential mutiny of his crews and then returning to report on it all. The discovery of a new land even if what he believed it was was actually incorrect.

That is what the day honor's, well what I think it was supposed to honor anyway.

That the Spanish court removed him for his transgression's and brutality applies to his ability as an administrator and government official. That and the transgression's of his brothers who were also listed as governor's and changed how things were being run. Some of the stuff I've read stating that one actually making it more brutal / exploitative and showing more favor driven policies.

Should that be ignored? No, not at all. It needs to be known and understood just how bad it was. Right down to the fact that he was taken back to Spain in chains because of it. Then released again to go on a 4th voyage of exploration with the condition that he never return to the former site he held Governorship over. But it also needs to be recognized that the drive for gold, profit, conversion's and other things were equally being driven by the crown, business backers and other social conditions of the times.

Still my biggest complaint though is probably the majority of people gripping about it don't know modern history much less history from the late 1400's and into the 1500's. Know even less about Indigenous / first nation's history and just how brutal that actually was and the atrocities that were committed.

Happy Indigenous Peoples Day ... Ok describe an indigenous person ... what does one look like Ask the average person on the street and see what you get as an answer I'd almost bet they'll describe a plains indian, usually a Lakota from the movies..maybe an Apache

MaskedOne
17 Oct 2019, 11:51
Personally I think the problem is Columbus Day is not about honoring his time as governor but about being the explorer, navigator and just what it took to lead an expedition into the unknown. Overcoming the fear, the unknown, the loss of one of his ships, potential mutiny of his crews and then returning to report on it all. The discovery of a new land even if what he believed it was was actually incorrect.

That is what the day honor's, well what I think it was supposed to honor anyway.

That the Spanish court removed him for his transgression's and brutality applies to his ability as an administrator and government official. That and the transgression's of his brothers who were also listed as governor's and changed how things were being run. Some of the stuff I've read stating that one actually making it more brutal / exploitative and showing more favor driven policies.

Should that be ignored? No, not at all. It needs to be known and understood just how bad it was. Right down to the fact that he was taken back to Spain in chains because of it. Then released again to go on a 4th voyage of exploration with the condition that he never return to the former site he held Governorship over. But it also needs to be recognized that the drive for gold, profit, conversion's and other things were equally being driven by the crown, business backers and other social conditions of the times.

Still my biggest complaint though is probably the majority of people gripping about it don't know modern history much less history from the late 1400's and into the 1500's. Know even less about Indigenous / first nation's history and just how brutal that actually was and the atrocities that were committed.

Happy Indigenous Peoples Day ... Ok describe an indigenous person ... what does one look like Ask the average person on the street and see what you get as an answer I'd almost bet they'll describe a plains indian, usually a Lakota from the movies..maybe an Apache


The drive to explore and courage to venture into the unknown are worth celebrating. Explorers however are not so vanishingly uncommon that Columbus whose time as a governor was so bad that he was summoned back to Spain in chains to account for his misconduct needs to be the explorer who gets a holiday. I'd expect that if society really wanted to find an explorer to celebrate that was not quite so horrible then it wouldn't be an impossible task. No historic figure or people is perfect. Humans always have flaws if you look hard enough but not all people have equivalent flaws and I think that if the deeply flawed Spanish Court of the 1500s can look at Columbus and condemn him for unnecessary brutality then from the vantage of 2019 we can afford to stop glorifying him. If in the process, we find some overlooked figure from history who did something awesome without managing to run afoul of "Evil has Standards" to replace him with then that would be even better.

Bartmanhomer
17 Oct 2019, 12:52
There are a few contradictions here. Native America first discovers and live in America. Leik was the first European was to set land in America but there's no holiday in honour him for that. Then Christopher Columbus was the second man to set foot in America causing all sort of brutal and horrible things that he did to Native America and there was a holiday of him for concealing that (which I don't think he deserved a holiday at all in my opinion.) So I think they're a lot of stuff that people aren't telling us. :confused:

monsno_leedra
17 Oct 2019, 13:27
The drive to explore and courage to venture into the unknown are worth celebrating. Explorers however are not so vanishingly uncommon that Columbus whose time as a governor was so bad that he was summoned back to Spain in chains to account for his misconduct needs to be the explorer who gets a holiday. I'd expect that if society really wanted to find an explorer to celebrate that was not quite so horrible then it wouldn't be an impossible task. No historic figure or people is perfect. Humans always have flaws if you look hard enough but not all people have equivalent flaws and I think that if the deeply flawed Spanish Court of the 1500s can look at Columbus and condemn him for unnecessary brutality then from the vantage of 2019 we can afford to stop glorifying him. If in the process, we find some overlooked figure from history who did something awesome without managing to run afoul of "Evil has Standards" to replace him with then that would be even better.

But he was being acknowledged for being the first to sail to the "New World" no other's recognized for that. Sure Lief the Lucky had gone but he didn't actually set up anything and stay there. Historically now we know that the Chinese probably arrived on the California coast and explored all the way down into the South American region as well. But again, that is history that at the time, and to some degree even now is now well known. Heck if I recall my history correctly there is speculation that the Phoenicians may have even landed in the America's at one point based upon some of the native lore.

So while there are other explore's who are worthy of praise and probably better suited "Today" for a holiday in their honor, they were not the first historically. Figure the European Age of Exploration really kicks off shortly after the 1500's start but Columbus' voyage occurred prior to the formal start to that age. Though the Portuguese were starting explorations down the coast of Africa since the Arab countries had basically closed off the overland routes and red sea routes due to costs and other reasons.

We talk about the plagues as part of the issue with Columbus and European contact. Yet if there is truth to the idea of Chinese contact as early as 1421 and actual outposts as some suggest were there plagues from that? Some nations have stories of sicknesses that wracked their peoples back then and caused lots of death. If so did those same plagues (presumed) also move inland moving in from the westcoast? We don't know for sure as they would be nearly 100 years before you'd see the plagues from contact with the European contact's which moved from the east. IN part it's still history being discovered or rediscovered.

He's honored for being the first to do something of that magnitude. What he did later he screwed up I agree and that needs to be remembered as well and noted that he is not being honored nor remembered for that.

Now does he need to have a universal holiday? I honestly don't know. Like I mentioned above I think Amerigo Vespucci is more deserving as he is the name sake for the land mass we call the America's and proved it was a new land mass. Columbus proved there was something out here but other's proved what it was and what it was not.

As far as being to brutal, was he to brutal if compared to the other Spanish leaders that came after him? Some say he was removed not because of his brutality but because of constant suspicion about his loyalty to Spain since he was not Spanish. Some suggest it was the brutality of his brother once he was left in charge. Some suggest it was because Columbus might have been a little more religious than was desired and saw himself as something of a divine figure. Heck, it could have been all of those things combined.

- - - Updated - - -


There are a few contradictions here. Native America first discovers and live in America. Leik was the first European was to set land in America but there's no holiday in honour him for that. Then Christopher Columbus was the second man to set foot in America causing all sort of brutal and horrible things that he did to Native America and there was a holiday of him for concealing that (which I don't think he deserved a holiday at all in my opinion.) So I think they're a lot of stuff that people aren't telling us. :confused:

Theoretically Asian's discovered and lived in America first. They migrated across the Bearing Strait land bridge and came down into the America's. The alternate option, especially for South America is from the Polynesian Islands in the Pacific. So still not Native American's by definition.

Bartmanhomer
17 Oct 2019, 14:22
But he was being acknowledged for being the first to sail to the "New World" no other's recognized for that. Sure Lief the Lucky had gone but he didn't actually set up anything and stay there. Historically now we know that the Chinese probably arrived on the California coast and explored all the way down into the South American region as well. But again, that is history that at the time, and to some degree even now is now well known. Heck if I recall my history correctly there is speculation that the Phoenicians may have even landed in the America's at one point based upon some of the native lore.

So while there are other explore's who are worthy of praise and probably better suited "Today" for a holiday in their honor, they were not the first historically. Figure the European Age of Exploration really kicks off shortly after the 1500's start but Columbus' voyage occurred prior to the formal start to that age. Though the Portuguese were starting explorations down the coast of Africa since the Arab countries had basically closed off the overland routes and red sea routes due to costs and other reasons.

We talk about the plagues as part of the issue with Columbus and European contact. Yet if there is truth to the idea of Chinese contact as early as 1421 and actual outposts as some suggest were there plagues from that? Some nations have stories of sicknesses that wracked their peoples back then and caused lots of death. If so did those same plagues (presumed) also move inland moving in from the westcoast? We don't know for sure as they would be nearly 100 years before you'd see the plagues from contact with the European contact's which moved from the east. IN part it's still history being discovered or rediscovered.

He's honored for being the first to do something of that magnitude. What he did later he screwed up I agree and that needs to be remembered as well and noted that he is not being honored nor remembered for that.

Now does he need to have a universal holiday? I honestly don't know. Like I mentioned above I think Amerigo Vespucci is more deserving as he is the name sake for the land mass we call the America's and proved it was a new land mass. Columbus proved there was something out here but other's proved what it was and what it was not.

As far as being to brutal, was he to brutal if compared to the other Spanish leaders that came after him? Some say he was removed not because of his brutality but because of constant suspicion about his loyalty to Spain since he was not Spanish. Some suggest it was the brutality of his brother once he was left in charge. Some suggest it was because Columbus might have been a little more religious than was desired and saw himself as something of a divine figure. Heck, it could have been all of those things combined.

- - - Updated - - -



Theoretically Asian's discovered and lived in America first. They migrated across the Bearing Strait land bridge and came down into the America's. The alternate option, especially for South America is from the Polynesian Islands in the Pacific. So still not Native American's by definition.

And this is what the teachers don't teach me like that when I was at school.

Shahaku
18 Oct 2019, 07:48
So, a common reason Columbus is celebrated is because "he proved the Earth was round." This isn't true. Another reason that he's celebrated its because "he found America". This isn't true. Other celebrate him because he "settled America". This isn't true.

The first colony was English, even though the Spanish were the first to explore here. Before that, America was settled by, get this, Native Americans. Reinforcing the idea that this land was unsettled before the English founded colonies perpetuates the harm of colonization.

Columbus wasn't the first to come here, and his people didn't settle here before the English, so really he isn't that different from the Vikings who did the same thing, hundreds of years before. They came, found the Americas, traded with them, sometimes married them, or at least bred with them, and explored this land. That's what the Spanish did. The fact that the English from advantage of this rediscovered knowledge to colonize shouldn't be celebrated.

And though the Church fought the idea that the earth was round during the dark ages, and it has generally been accepted that people agreed the Earth was flat until the Americas were found, scholars have agreed for more than 2000 years that the earth is round and a planet. They just couldn't be vocal about it because they would have been executed.

Juniper
18 Oct 2019, 10:51
I split off most of the posts from the Happy Indigenous People Day thread because a debate was happening in an inappropriate sub forum. This is the new home to continue discussing or debating Columbus, his actions, reasons for (or against) celebrating Columbus Day, etc.

Bartmanhomer
18 Oct 2019, 14:26
Well the truth of the matter is that Christopher Columbus is a total jerk. It took me awhile to realized what kind of person he really is. So I heard it from one person at my job saying that he's a racist and a rapist. I was very shock to hear about the horrible truth about him. I'm very disgusted of what that guy did and for now on I'm going to celebrated Indigenous Peoples Day every year.

monsno_leedra
25 Oct 2019, 11:01
.. I'm very disgusted of what that guy did and for now on I'm going to celebrated Indigenous Peoples Day every year.

Not trying to be an arse or anything here but in all seriousness what exactly are you going to be celebrating? Asking you BMH or anyone else who cares to answer.

Celebrating Indigenous Peoples of the World? Celebrating Indigenous Peoples of the America's only? Celebrating the Indigenous Peoples of the North American land mass? Celebrating the fact your not celebrating Columbus? Then just what are you doing to celebrate these Indigenous Peoples? Especially given nearly anything that is done which requires you to wear something, eat something, show something, say something, almost acknowledge something people today are screaming "Cultural Appropriation" by doing so. History wise almost nothing is being taught or shown about Indigenous culture's since each Indigenous group had a unique culture for the most part.

Figure there is no Native American Pantheon of divinities for instance but nearly 600 unique nations with their own histories, religious beliefs, creation stories, etc in North America alone.

Again not trying to be a smart arse here. I am truly interested in how people are trying to celebrate this and honor / recognize indigenous peoples in their own respective way. Not make it a "It's not a Columbus Day" generic holiday that is supposedly about native peoples from around the world.

Bartmanhomer
25 Oct 2019, 12:16
Native Americans who discover America celebrated Indigenous Peoples Day.

MaskedOne
25 Oct 2019, 12:40
Not trying to be an arse or anything here but in all seriousness what exactly are you going to be celebrating? Asking you BMH or anyone else who cares to answer.

Celebrating Indigenous Peoples of the World? Celebrating Indigenous Peoples of the America's only? Celebrating the Indigenous Peoples of the North American land mass? Celebrating the fact your not celebrating Columbus? Then just what are you doing to celebrate these Indigenous Peoples? Especially given nearly anything that is done which requires you to wear something, eat something, show something, say something, almost acknowledge something people today are screaming "Cultural Appropriation" by doing so. History wise almost nothing is being taught or shown about Indigenous culture's since each Indigenous group had a unique culture for the most part.

Figure there is no Native American Pantheon of divinities for instance but nearly 600 unique nations with their own histories, religious beliefs, creation stories, etc in North America alone.

Again not trying to be a smart arse here. I am truly interested in how people are trying to celebrate this and honor / recognize indigenous peoples in their own respective way. Not make it a "It's not a Columbus Day" generic holiday that is supposedly about native peoples from around the world.

I work retail. If Indigenous People's Day takes off then it mostly amounts to "The Jack*** population increases because holiday" instead of the "The Jack*** population increases because holiday celebrating particularly evil Jack***". Mind you, that is still an improvement but my interest is almost entirely because Columbus offends me.

Granted, I am more than a bit jaded about holidays and even the ones that I actually care about still all bottomline at "Jack*** population increases" The only exception is Christmas which bottomlines at "Retail still believes that at least one day should be sacrosanct?!? YES!!!! How long will this last?" Someone less jaded may have a better answer.

B. de Corbin
25 Oct 2019, 12:41
As children, we are told fairytales of perfect heros acting perfectly heroically.

Later, we find out these people were human, as are we, and embodied both in the temperament of the times in which they are born, and of the temperament with which they were born, and which allowed them to survive and rise to prominence in that time and place, and we hate them for it.

Someday we will stop looking for heroes in the past, and look for them in the now.


P.s I imagine that the holiday is to celebrate... Or maybe to merely acknowledge... all the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Americas, what with "Native Americans" being a collective proper noun used to indicate all the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Americas.

monsno_leedra
25 Oct 2019, 14:10
.. P.s I imagine that the holiday is to celebrate... Or maybe to merely acknowledge... all the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Americas, what with "Native Americans" being a collective proper noun used to indicate all the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Americas.

That's one of the things I'm talking about. A few generations ago it was proper to call the 1st peoples and later "Native American's" and that went up to modern times. Now the argument I'm seeing and hearing more and more often is that is "colonialism" speaking. They aren't Native American's they are Indigenous Peoples.

However, realistically everyone is indigenous to the planet and the landmass from which they hail from. Doesn't matter whether they be Asian, European, African, Polynesian, etc. Then it is further broken down by specifics of some sort either by identification within their own peoples or by outside sources. They are still indigenous to the planet and landmass.

Take the Dakota, Lakota or Uglala they are still the Sioux to those outside that Nation but were their traditional enemies. Known as Native American's to people who are still less formal who only know them to be American Indian's from North America. No need to go into disrespectful terms we've all heard at one point or another probably.

But go onto more modern sites and groups and they want it known as "Indigenous Peoples". Now maybe people don't know the Cherokee are called the "Tsalagi" or the Navajo are called the "Dine" meaning "The People" or "Children of the Holy People" for instance but they never will if it's all lumped under Indigenous Peoples I think.

Of course that's just my opinion.