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Bartmanhomer
20 Nov 2019, 18:09
I don't care if you disagree with me about this topic. Transgender athletes have every right to compete in sports just like a cis athlete. Many people have this mindset about transgender women athletes because they switch gender to cheat. How? Transgender women athletes are still women. They don't switch gender to cheat in sports. I just which people can be open and accepted about transgender athletes.

Rhythm
20 Nov 2019, 18:48
As I understand it, athletes are in the habit of taking performance enhancing drugs, not performance decreasing drugs.

Bartmanhomer
20 Nov 2019, 18:52
As I understand it, athletes are in the habit of taking performance enhancing drugs, not performance decreasing drugs.

That I get.

anunitu
21 Nov 2019, 19:31
being i am post op transgender on hormones you lose a lot of strength and lose any advantage in competition, and i know from my own experience mtf if you wondered and now 30 years post op

DHR
09 Dec 2019, 17:45
OP, would you say that male to female have an edge over cis females in combat and weight lifting sports ?

Bartmanhomer
09 Dec 2019, 18:40
OP, would you say that male to female have an edge over cis females in combat and weight lifting sports ?
I guess they do. That's a very controversial question. Because most MTF athletes are very stronger than cis females in combat and weight lifting.

DHR
09 Dec 2019, 19:13
Do female to male athletes have to compete in a cis gender events or can trans athletes have a trans only event?

Bartmanhomer
09 Dec 2019, 19:37
Do female to male athletes have to compete in a cis gender events or can trans athletes have a trans only event?

In my opinion FTM athletes can complete everywhere. :)

anunitu
09 Dec 2019, 19:50
thanks for all the open minds that makes our lives so much easier

Bartmanhomer
09 Dec 2019, 19:54
thanks for all the open minds that makes our lives so much easier

You're welcome. I support transgender people even in sports. They have every right to compete in sports just like cis athletes do. :D

anubisa
09 Dec 2019, 20:21
No matter what I think that it is good to see that people are accepting transgender people in sports. Transgender is still such a hot topic among many which I don't think it should be. If you feel like you are another gender then you have the right to change sexes and not be judged. So I think it is great that transgendered people can participate in sports.

Bartmanhomer
09 Dec 2019, 20:38
No matter what I think that it is good to see that people are accepting transgender people in sports. Transgender is still such a hot topic among many which I don't think it should be. If you feel like you are another gender then you have the right to change sexes and not be judged. So I think it is great that transgendered people can participate in sports.

I agree. Facts. :D

Rhythm
12 Dec 2019, 05:00
I wonder why people imagine than mtf trans are stronger? Or why it would be a problem if some were? It's uncommon for trans people to compete in sports, and even less common for them to win. When they do, it's because they have some particular attribute or constellation of attributes that is very specifically beneficial to the event they're competing in. The past presence of peen not being one of them, as far as I'm aware. This is the same for any competitive cis.

Michael Phelps was built to swim. I'm not. Ronda Rousey would mercilessly destroy me in MMA - even though I'm a trained combatant. That's -before- any comment on the outcome of the physically debilitating process of gender reassignment. Hey, let's look at weightlifting. A trans lifter named Laurel Hubbard has been in and out of news over the past few years. She's crushed it a couple of times in NZ. That sounds impressive and, on the face of it might seem to confirm those strange ideas we have about trans people and sports......until we realize that she crushed it in NZ, with 280kg totals, at best (but usually less).

A cis female by the name of Li Wenwen pulls 332kgs regularly.

Bartmanhomer
12 Dec 2019, 05:10
I wonder why people imagine than mtf trans are stronger? Or why it would be a problem if some were? It's uncommon for trans people to compete in sports, and even less common for them to win. When they do, it's because they have some particular attribute or constellation of attributes that is very specifically beneficial to the event they're competing in. The past presence of peen not being one of them, as far as I'm aware. This is the same for any competitive cis.

Michael Phelps was built to swim. I'm not. Ronda Rousey would mercilessly destroy me in MMA - even though I'm a trained combatant. That's -before- any comment on the outcome of the physically debilitating process of gender reassignment. Hey, let's look at weightlifting. A trans lifter named Laurel Hubbard has been in and out of news over the past few years. She's crushed it a couple of times in NZ. That sounds impressive and, on the face of it might seem to confirm those strange ideas we have about trans people and sports......until we realize that she crushed it in NZ, with 280kg totals, at best (but usually less).

A cis female by the name of Li Wenwen pulls 332kgs regularly.

Some people are very narrow-minded and they believed that trans athletes have no business in sports to compete with cis athletes. :mad:

Rhythm
12 Dec 2019, 06:19
Sure, but I'm wondering why.

At every point down the rabbit hole it just gets stranger. We could imagine, for example, that Ms. Wenwen was taking performance enhancing drugs. Yes, she's a cis female, but the presence of these substances directly correlates with performance...and generally correlates with biological sex. Perhaps, knowing more now about performance than before, we might realize that our boys division/girls division was simplistic, and didn't reflect the full realities of human biological potential. Maybe we should have testosterone divisions?

Wouldn't that confirm our strange ideas about trans people and sports..also? Well, no. Trans athletes have consistently lower levels of testosterone than their cisgendered peers. That's one of the effects of the medication schedule, and it's a feature - not a bug. Trans athletes have voluntarily signed up for a competitive disadvantage. The performance gap between mtf trans and cis male is greater than the performance gap between cis female and cis male.

Bartmanhomer
12 Dec 2019, 06:50
Sure, but I'm wondering why.

At every point down the rabbit hole, it just gets stranger. We could imagine, for example, that Ms. Wenwen was taking performance-enhancing drugs. Yes, she's a cis female, but the presence of these substances directly correlates with performance...and generally correlates with biological sex. Perhaps, knowing more now about performance than before, we might realize that our boy's division/girls division was simplistic, and didn't reflect the full realities of human biological potential. Maybe we should have testosterone divisions?

Wouldn't that confirm our strange ideas about trans people and sports..also? Well, no. Trans athletes have consistently lower levels of testosterone than their cisgender peers. That's one of the effects of the medication schedule, and it's a feature - not a bug. Trans athletes have voluntarily signed up for a competitive disadvantage. The performance gap between mtf trans and cis male is greater than the performance gap between cis female and cis male.

That's also very controversial about testosterone drugs and performance-enhancing drugs. If drug companies nerfed these drugs then it would balance the sports competition between trans athletes and cis athletes.

Rhythm
12 Dec 2019, 09:20
Why would it, and what is there to balance? Trans athletes already have consistently lower levels of testosterone than their cisgendered peers. That's lower levels than their peers who are....and who aren't..... juicing. They already underperform compared to their cisgendered peers, and the performance gap between them and males, and cisgendered female athletes and males, is already larger.

Getting rid of the juicers, or the juice, would still leave trans athletes with lower levels, lower performance, and a wider gap. If anything, and if these strange intuitions we have are correct, trans athletes should be allowed to take performance enhancing drugs to reach parity. Stranger as we go. There's no one out there transitioning to win at sports, because that's not actually how any of that works. There's no problem, no there, there to be controversial or need balancing or anything at all. It's the perceptual equivalent of a jumpscare.

If we ended up with an "only female" female division, and a more inclusive "any female" female division...regular old cisgendered females would be mopping the floor with cisgendered women and transwomen alike all day every day - just like they already are.

Bartmanhomer
12 Dec 2019, 09:58
Why would it, and what is there to balance? Trans athletes already have consistently lower levels of testosterone than their cisgendered peers. That's lower levels than their peers who are....and who aren't..... juicing. They already underperform compared to their cisgendered peers, and the performance gap between them and males, and cisgendered female athletes and males, is already larger.

Getting rid of the juicers, or the juice, would still leave trans athletes with lower levels, lower performance, and a wider gap. If anything, and if these strange intuitions we have are correct, trans athletes should be allowed to take performance enhancing drugs to reach parity. Stranger as we go. There's no one out there transitioning to win at sports, because that's not actually how any of that works. There's no problem, no there, there to be controversial or need balancing or anything at all. It's the perceptual equivalent of a jumpscare.

If we ended up with an "only female" female division, and a more inclusive "any female" female division...regular old cisgendered females would be mopping the floor with cisgendered women and transwomen alike all day every day - just like they already are.

You do have a very good point there.

Rhythm
12 Dec 2019, 10:15
At the end of the day, I think that there really is only one point to the whole mess. It has nothing to do with mtf trans, or athletes, or fairness in sports. It's a cynical political lever .

Bartmanhomer
12 Dec 2019, 13:34
At the end of the day, I think that there really is only one point to the whole mess. It has nothing to do with my trans or athletes or fairness in sports. It's a cynical political lever.

I agree it always has to do with politics.