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Tylluan Penry
02 Jun 2011, 10:21
This isn't really news, but I thought it was interesting that the Catholic Truth Society (don't you just love the title? What do they think the rest of us are? The Pagan Liars? The Druidic Fibbers? The Heathen Tall Story Society? ;) ) has found it necessary to bring out the following book (and there are two others listed on the page too)

http://www.cts-online.org.uk/acatalog/info_Ex35.html

MaskedOne
02 Jun 2011, 11:08
Heh, entertaining.

The name thing is more that they think the rest of us are misguided and need to be shown the proper path, least that's what I expect. The Church has official policies and then it has viewpoints that spring up separate of the Vatican that may or may not be left alone depending on how much the position aggravates the Church. This can lead to a bit of variance in how different Catholic groups respond to similar stimuli. I don't know this group well enough to comment with absolute certainty.

Either way, long as the book actually did its research and it advocates a civil approach, I won't complain much.

B. de Corbin
02 Jun 2011, 11:49
To marginalised and spiritually hungry generations the growing spiritual phenomena of Wicca and witchcraft have proved attractive, with much to offer: power, supernatural abilities and socially acceptable agendas such as eco-activism and feminism. This booklet examines their origins, history, beliefs and practices, and then explains Catholic teaching’s cogent assessment of them. Furthermore it explores why young people are attracted to Wicca, and describes ways in which it is possible to bring witches and wiccans to Christ and his Church.

Hmmm... paganism offers power, special abilities, and promotes things like ecological action and feminism?

And that's bad?

So... what do the Catholics have to offer? Should I be looking to them for much needed ineffectual actions, rejection of the natural abilities inherent in human beings, the rejection of ecological concerns, and of feminism?

I don't get it... what is the horrible danger the author is going to reveal? Maybe it's Satan who really wants to make the world a better place, and not Jesus after all...

Man, wouldn't it be a pisser if that turned out to be true?

(can you taste the sarcasm? Don't mind me, I'm just upset because I really, really want to be a Druid Fibber, but I'm afraid to get involved in the never ending "what a Druid really is" debate).

:D

P.S. - the best way to bring witches and wiccans to Christ and his church is to offer free food (preferably vegetarian) and beer. And later on in the evening, don't disturb the couples hanging out in the confessionals.

yukanaoe
02 Jun 2011, 16:12
P.S. - the best way to bring witches and wiccans to Christ and his church is to offer free food (preferably vegetarian) and beer. And later on in the evening, don't disturb the couples hanging out in the confessionals.

ROFLMAO thats awesome!!!

Ananta Androscoggin
02 Jun 2011, 16:21
As far as I'm concerned (on even-numbered days) "Satan" is nothing but an alias used by Yahweh.

On even-numbered days, I figure they're twin brothers.

Taiga Pagan
02 Jun 2011, 19:32
If they start another Malleus Maleficarum and uses it on people, I swear I'll arm myself to the theets and bring it to them, cuz ignoriance of the historical facts is unacceptable and should be punished by the fire they used our ancestors (legally of course if possible).
Let it be known! (ROARING LOUDLY!)

In any court of justice ignorance is not an excuse... so why would they be the exception again?... oh yeah! They are the justice system!
Those people may have to be accuse of Inciting murder, Applying justice outside of a court, stuff like that... even maybe the Crime of hate.

MaskedOne
02 Jun 2011, 19:56
Taiga do you evidence that these people have recently become bloodthirsty FUCKING IDIOTS or are you merely jumping on a chance to discuss evil Christian conspiracies.

Fuck people. They happen to think Pagans are misguided. Guess what, everyone on this forum who cannot honestly put Roman Catholic in their religion tab thinks the same damn thing about them. The only difference is most of us consider their errors to be rather harmless as long as they stay to themselves and they think our errors could cause us lasting misery so they have a moral obligation to try and persuade (note Taiga, I said persuade not coerce) us of their viewpoint and we have no corresponding obligation. Now if the book that we've seen a grand total of the F***-ing summary for actually includes grandiose conspiracies to brainwash young pagans or outright lies (that can be proven as such, accept that tenets of faith will clash) then yes bash the book and the writers. Till someone actually provides evidence of such evils by quoting text from the book, could we perhaps lay off on the evil Christian vibe. It ceases to be entertaining around the age of 15.

Taiga Pagan
02 Jun 2011, 20:07
1 million women died because of knowledge of the natural world (herbology, science) or the belief of the feminine side of the Divine, by the Inquisition and Witch Trials. It was a Holocaust. I dare do not wish such an event to happen again, let be warranted by Christian extremists again!

MaskedOne
02 Jun 2011, 20:16
Back up the numbers with sources that I can independently confirm. Provide me a time frame for these million executions and finally (and most importantly) explain how the hell it has any bearing on this book. You'll note the book's stated purpose is educating Catholics on Witchcraft for the purpose of persuading not identifying so that assassins may be summoned.

Taiga Pagan
02 Jun 2011, 20:26
Look at the documentary: Burning Times

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?1842-Words-of-the-wise-man-or-woman&p=39637&viewfull=1#post39637

Also the site:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm

for starts... can find more to satisfy your question Masked One!

MaskedOne
02 Jun 2011, 20:52
Sources, cool with a bit of luck, I can get through documentary tomorrow on an actual computer. I'm still waiting to see application of the Inquisition's history to modern times (i.e. this century when the Catholic Church's actual legislative power outside Vatican City is distinctlt limited).

Medusa
02 Jun 2011, 21:13
Pagans killed Christians. Christians killed Pagan. Muslims killed both. And Satanists are partying looting your shit.
The end.

Tylluan Penry
02 Jun 2011, 21:45
I think it's important to remember that that Inquisition persecuted many different groups, including Protestants and Muslims. It still exists (the present Pope was its head at one time.) However the idea that the Inquisition was persecuting women for knowing about herbs etc., just isn't backed up by the facts. Yes, women were executed. So were men. Some of those women may have considered themselves witches, but most simply confessed to anything under torture. The questions were put to them... they rarely if ever confessed spontaneously. In fact, the first trials during the middle ages for sorcery and occult practices were actually of Christian clergy! The other important point is that witch trials continued even under a Protestant (i.e. not Catholic) regime.

And of course, it wasn't only Christians who punished occult practices. The Romans had a slew of laws dealing with it, and the first Emperor, Augustus had occasional purges, particularly against fortune tellers. Christians didn't invent persecution.

I blogged about the 'Burning Times' (rather light heartedly) some years ago here:

http://tylluanpenry.blog.co.uk/2007/07/18/burned_at_the_stake~2658838/


In fact, some of the information in the Malleus Malleficarum pre-dates Christianity by a long way. (Think of Hesiod's Theogeny - c.7th - 8th century BC yet the sentiments in part could have come straight out of the Middle Ages.) In particular look at the section in the MM where it deals with women stealing men's willies. :)

Taiga Pagan
02 Jun 2011, 21:52
Yes you refer to the Theodician Edicts, in which the Roman emperor was trying to rid Rome of Sects... which included ironically Christianity.

Tylluan Penry
02 Jun 2011, 21:58
Yes you refer to the Theodician Edicts, in which the Roman emperor was trying to rid Rome of Sects... which included ironically Christianity.
Um.... no. The Theodosian edict was passed in about 380 to deal with the Arian heresy if I remember rightly. Augustus, being the first Roman Emperor was around four centuries earlier.

Taiga Pagan
02 Jun 2011, 22:05
Then I'll have to find the information. Any online documentation?

You are right about the Arian part...

Tylluan Penry
02 Jun 2011, 22:13
What information are you looking for exactly? A copy of the Theodosian edict, proof of its date, proof of Theodosius' dates, the Arian heresy or hesiod's THeogeny, or something else?

Taiga Pagan
02 Jun 2011, 22:19
The information about the Roman Chapters of the Malleus Maleficarum. From Augustus era.
Or some research about it.

Tylluan Penry
02 Jun 2011, 22:30
Try finding a copy of the 'The flying phallus and the laughing inquisitor: penis theft in the Malleus Maleficarum'.
Journal of Folklore Research. It's by Moira Smith 2002. If you can access JSTOR through your local library you should be able to find it.

Taiga Pagan
02 Jun 2011, 22:32
thank you will read it, when I get to a big enough library to find it.

B. de Corbin
03 Jun 2011, 01:57
Personally, I'd say that anybody who wants to claim that they are right and others are wrong has an obligation to prove it. I don't see how that can be done with a religion...

Hawkfeathers
03 Jun 2011, 03:07
How about converting Catholics back to the Old Ways?

B. de Corbin
03 Jun 2011, 03:19
How about converting Catholics back to the Old Ways?

Catholics are already pagans, they just don't know it. Ask a Protestant...

thalassa
03 Jun 2011, 03:20
Ah, yes...the "Which brand of Jesus do YOU worship?" debate...


....always entertaining

DanieMarie
03 Jun 2011, 04:41
P.S. - the best way to bring witches and wiccans to Christ and his church is to offer free food (preferably vegetarian) and beer. And later on in the evening, don't disturb the couples hanging out in the confessionals.

*Ahem*
http://www.paradiso.nl/web/English-Agenda/About-paradiso.htm

Though I don't think Paradiso or its organizers have much to do with Jesus haha.

I also know a few Londoners who go to these events, but I think also it has a lot to do with mocking church. They don't have a liquor license (or so I'm told) so you have to "enter a raffle" to "win" drinks (which everyone does), and then you party it up on sunday afternoon....at least that's how it started. It seems from this page that it's a bit more "established" now. At least I think this is the right place:
http://www.thechurch.co.uk/

MaskedOne
03 Jun 2011, 05:42
Personally, I'd say that anybody who wants to claim that they are right and others are wrong has an obligation to prove it. I don't see how that can be done with a religion...

Good for you. Personally, I'd say that those whose complaints are based on less than half a summary and a misrepresentation there should probably do enough background research to make a case. However, so far we have one poster taking the name of the publisher as an assault on non-Catholics, another poster taking a single sentence describing part of Wicca's theoretical allure to the young and using it to suggest the Catholic Church is making a blanket statement that the alluring qualities of Wicca are evil and finally my favorite poster of all who has decided that a book designed to educate and help persuade is a prelude to the Catholic Church overthrowing secular governments and washing the streets with the blood of heretics and non believers.

Far be it from me to suggest the Catholic Church is the penultimate human institution but their idiocy does not grant free license to engage in equal idiocy.

B. de Corbin
03 Jun 2011, 06:36
...However, so far we have one poster taking the name of the publisher as an assault on non-Catholics, another poster taking a single sentence describing part of Wicca's theoretical allure to the young and using it to suggest the Catholic Church is making a blanket statement that the alluring qualities of Wicca are evil and finally my favorite poster of all who has decided that a book designed to educate and help persuade is a prelude to the Catholic Church overthrowing secular governments and washing the streets with the blood of heretics and non believers...

No, MaskedOne, what you have here is somebody (me) laughing at the silly blurb for a book - which explains that funny thing I did where I quoted the blurb and then responded to it.

MaskedOne
03 Jun 2011, 07:14
Your intent and your text fail to match up, your response was not funny. It was more than a little irritating. As it stands though, your less than humorous misuse of that line is only a fragment of my problem with this thread and would probably have been left alone if Taiga did not start his Inquisition speeches.

Of course Christians will attempt to convert Pagans, its a fracking divine command to spread the message of their deity. It's predictable that they will publish literature providing information on their audience to those intending to take up the role of missionary. How is either of these points any more silly than half the practices carried out by members of this board? Where is the evidence that this particular text is not well researched and well written?

And before I forget, this question is specifically to Taiga, where in hell is the evidence that Catholic Church has the ability and will to start handing out executions for heresy in modern times?

Are we reviving the bash Christian trend on Paganforum or instituting a new trend of "I can make specious attacks with minimal evidence for ****s and giggles" trend? I'm failing to see how this thread has accomplished anything else.

DanieMarie
03 Jun 2011, 07:20
PS I happen to have some really awesome Catholic friends who entertain more modern, liberal beliefs. And some family who are a little less so, but still kind, accepting people nonetheless. I'm open about my beliefs with the former, and with the latter I simply don't discuss it and they don't push theirs on me. I don't think it's fair to criticize Catholics as a whole :)

Dez
03 Jun 2011, 08:17
Wow...can't believe I missed a "Burning Times" debate. Good job keeping it civil, folks.

As for the OP...that is pretty darn hilarious. Bible Belters have been publishing similar stuff for years...I wonder if they used any of it for source material? LOL

B. de Corbin
03 Jun 2011, 09:07
I think somebody somewhere is sitting on a pointed stick.

ChainLightning
03 Jun 2011, 13:34
Well.

I'm late as usual. I was a little preoccupied by a Christian v. Atheist rights, which one being supported by law, debate.

This Burning Times reference, to what I've learned over the years, is not all that different. There's claims of 200,000 all the way up to over 9 million witches killed in the name of Christianity. Usually, the claims point out women and girls as [mainly] the victims of The Other Holocaust. Another common thread, found amongst those stories, is that it will happen again. "The Burning Times have returned!"

I put the story up there with the rest of my comics collection. Right along with all the stories from people claiming they're blood kin to Salem witches, burned at the stake. And all the thousands of people claiming to be Cleopatra, in a past life.


The burden isn't on me to prove anyone wrong. The burden isn't on them to prove their claim. The burden is on those that take a stand, one way or the other, to try and convince others of some "revealed" truth, that only the claimant could know.

The Catholic Church is far from innocent, in it's history. But it is also far from being the cunning, serial killing monster that so many NEOpagans make it out to be.

And I use "NEOpagan", advisedly. The new age movement folks are the only ones that feel obligated to do something about slights from centuries ago, if they in fact really did happen. It's playing the victim. With Catholicism the criminal. Or Christianity. Or Islam. Whatever the flavor de jour.



That's my take on it.

Tylluan Penry
03 Jun 2011, 14:15
I've looked again at my original post... I think the point I was trying to make was that I found it interesting that the CTS found it necessary to bring out the book in the first place. Perhaps what I should have said was that I was surprised they were worried about the faithful having contact with Wicca; given recent events in the RC church I would have thought they were more worried about the faithful having contact with a good lawyer.

And this was never intended as RC or Christian bashing... it was just a reflection on something that I thought was a bit pointless in this day and age. As for my comments about the Catholic Truth Society... well, I stand by that. If you are going to claim to tell the truth, you had better be squeaky clean. Which I don't think anyone - or very few - can be.

As for the the Druidic Fibbers etc., that was just a bit of light relief in my old age. ;) With regard to the Burning Times, I find a large pinch of salt usually does the trick!

ChainLightning
03 Jun 2011, 14:28
It *is* ironic, isn't it?

Taiga Pagan
03 Jun 2011, 17:54
To answer part of what MaskedOne asked here's a web page listing some witch persecutions.
http://www.paganlibrary.com/witch_hunting/persecution-modern_ancient.php

Tylluan Penry
03 Jun 2011, 22:28
That's a very interesting link, Taiga, thanks for posting it. I particularly liked the fact that it was dealing with various types of persecution through the ages and showing the similarities between them.