PDA

View Full Version : Mixing Catholicism with Witchcraft?



greenwood01
13 Sep 2011, 11:25
Sounds pretty oxymoronic but, i've heard of people practicing both. Any input anyone?

Amelia-Mary
13 Sep 2011, 11:38
Yeah, It can work. But it takes a lot of effort and explanation on the person practicing the path. I know someone (not very well so this could be a little bit wrong) who is a christo-witch, She believes in Jesus, God and the creation, but she follows just 'normal' earth based rituals, spells and she wears a pentacle and a cross at the same time. There's a good website I found from another Christo-witch here: http://arganteswell.tripod.com/id1.html I hope this helps somewhat :)

MaskedOne
13 Sep 2011, 12:11
Speaking only in regard to Roman Catholocism, not easily. There are explicit contadictions that have to be either set aside or dodged with a display of mental gymnastics and legalese that will not be received well if you mention it to the priesthood. There are a number of elements within Catholicism that bear striking resemblances to things found in other paths and a witch can easily borrow elements of Catholcism but a Catholic who is claiming to be a witch is either not up on their theology or they're ignoring some basic elements that might leader to the question of are they really Catholic or something new and different?

Ravenix
13 Sep 2011, 12:30
I may be wrong here, but isn't that basically what Voodoo is?

Amelia-Mary
13 Sep 2011, 12:36
Depends which path of voodoo, there are a few, some aspects of each one could relate to Christo/Catholic-witches but not completely

Ophidia
13 Sep 2011, 12:54
I may be wrong here, but isn't that basically what Voodoo is?

Vodou, Santeria, Candomble, Macumba and many of the other African Diaspora religions are syncretized religions that may include spellcraft/witchcraft as part of their accepted practices - but they aren't 'just' witchcraft.

Tylluan Penry
13 Sep 2011, 13:46
Sounds pretty oxymoronic but, i've heard of people practicing both. Any input anyone?

No. No. No. (Just my opinion, but I'll stop shuddering in a minute).

Having said that, it can work from a Witches' point of view... but not from a Catholic because it is monotheistic and for them there is only one God. The Christian god. and if you don't accept that, then you aren't Catholic. I'm assuming Catholic as RC here, but CoE would apply just about too.... although come to think of it, the Archbishop of Canterbury is also a Druid, so maybe not.

I think I may have just fried my head. Maybe I should go and lie down....

greenwood01
13 Sep 2011, 15:20
Santeria is interesting. I had a Cuban friend who practiced it and I never looked into it.

Ophidia
13 Sep 2011, 16:46
Santeria is interesting. I had a Cuban friend who practiced it and I never looked into it.

It's not something you can really 'eclecticize', and it does have a very strict hierarchy when it comes to initiation & priesthood.

Voodoo is a little less structured, and you can adopt certain practices into your existing ones. Luisah Teish's books have a more Wiccan/witchcraft take on Voodoo if you wanted to explore in that direction.

I can't really recommend any similar authors for Santeria - Migene Gonzales-Wippler's are ok, but since I got ahold of her book on magical talismans (and actually read it all the way through) she refers a lot to 'Satanic' symbology/protection & from demons/devils, that kind of thing, in the Hollywood sense and it left me with a bad taste about her authenticity. For many years, there weren't any common published books (other than sensationalized fiction like The Religion by Nicholas Conde - it's the book that spawned the movie The Believers) in the US about Santeria because it was a highly secretive and initiatory religion. However, some of that secrecy has been lifted, and there's a lot more information available both in print & on the 'net.

greenwood01
14 Sep 2011, 07:40
haha fried ur head eh?

thalassa
14 Sep 2011, 08:33
Well...witchcraft is a practice, and not a religion...though it can be (and is) incorporated into some religious traditions. So...assuming you can get past some of the issues certain Christian religions (including Catholicism) would have with the practice of witchcraft...I think it would depend more on one's ability to go to mass on Sunday, bust out the the spell supplies on Monday and head to confession on Tuesday.

MaskedOne
14 Sep 2011, 08:57
Only problem is that there is not a great deal of room for interpretation on Catholocism's issues with the practice of Witchcraft. You pretty much have to ignore an explicit "Thou shalt not" or perform some truly entertaining mental gymnastics and not tell the local priest. Much as I joke about the Book of Common Prayers being a spellbook, Catholic theology doesn't agree. Spellwork, energy manipulation, a host of other tricks will fall under sorcery or superstition by canon law and neither is truly appreciated (though superstition gets less general annoyance, it's a lesser issue and insanely easy to fall into).

thalassa
14 Sep 2011, 11:13
Only problem is that there is not a great deal of room for interpretation on Catholocism's issues with the practice of Witchcraft. You pretty much have to ignore an explicit "Thou shalt not" or perform some truly entertaining mental gymnastics and not tell the local priest.

My mom is Catholic...and uses birth control, believes in abortion as a reproductive right, fully admits to having garden "helpers", agrees with the death penalty, believes in gay marriage, uses tarot cards, thinks women should be allowed to be priests, and is a practitioner of a energy-work program for health careworkers (http://www.healingtouchprogram.com/)...

She might not be a *good* Catholic, but she's still Catholic...

Hawkfeathers
14 Sep 2011, 13:45
Some Protestant denominations insist that Catholics aren't Christian because of the use of intercessors in prayers, etc. IMO that brings Catholicism a bit closer to Paganism. It's the ability to understand different aspects of, and niche purposes for, all those saints, Mary, etc. Yes, Christianity has One God, but there's the whole triune Father/Son/Holy Spirit thing to consider.

greenwood01
14 Sep 2011, 13:56
It's perfectly ok to take what works for you and leave what doesn't. People do it all the time. Creating your own spiritual path, etc. :)

Dez
14 Sep 2011, 15:10
Some Protestant denominations insist that Catholics aren't Christian because of the use of intercessors in prayers, etc. IMO that brings Catholicism a bit closer to Paganism. It's the ability to understand different aspects of, and niche purposes for, all those saints, Mary, etc. Yes, Christianity has One God, but there's the whole triune Father/Son/Holy Spirit thing to consider.

This is what I was thinking in response to the OP, too.

With catholicism you have the official church stance, then you have a plethora of folk magic and cultural practices, varying by region, that got swept into the mish- mash when various groups converted.

MaskedOne
14 Sep 2011, 16:32
pulled to avoid personalizing an argument that I don't honestly want to get into

Ophidia
14 Sep 2011, 17:42
I guess it all comes down to the seriousness of your faith, your adherence to your church or belief system, and how much of your own personal practices you want to share.

Spiritualism has a long and proud tradition of mingling a little Voodoo, a little hoodoo, table-rapping, indigenous practices, folk magic and Christianity of many ilks. Some of the most powerful healers and psychics I've encountered were spiritualists. They could pray to the Great Spirit, Papa 'Legba, Jesus and all the Saints in one breath - and didn't concern themselves with hypocrisy.

That seems to be what we're all dancing around.

No one wants to call anyone a hypocrite, no matter how much that may be what some of us think when we encounter 'Christo-Wiccans' or 'Christo-Pagans'. It seems to be ok for Pagans to be as eclectic as they choose to be, but when it comes to Catholics, Christians, Muslims, etc. that eclecticism-tolerance goes by the wayside. I'm guilty of it myself - and I accept that and admit it. I do not believe that a Christian or Catholic* can be a witch and still consider themselves a card-carrying Christian or Catholic. There are too many prohibitions against it in the Bible, too many groves cut down, too many temples destroyed, too many people killed in the name of heresy and witchcraft, for it to be ok with me. If a Christian or Catholic wants to practice witchcraft, they can knock themselves out for all I care - but I would not help them, support them or teach them. I would probably snork and roll my eyes whenever they began to speak of their beliefs, or tried to justify mixing spellcraft with Christianity.

*from what I understand, as long as a Muslim sorcerer does not pray to any other deity in their practices, they can practice magic, alchemy, astrology, etc., and most of our high ceremonial magic(k) has more than its share of Judaism mixed into it, even calling upon JHVH & the archangels.

B. de Corbin
15 Sep 2011, 02:12
*from what I understand, as long as a Muslim sorcerer does not pray to any other deity in their practices, they can practice magic, alchemy, astrology, etc., and most of our high ceremonial magic(k) has more than its share of Judaism mixed into it, even calling upon JHVH & the archangels.

In alchemy, there is a God-concept (the Living God), but the individual alchemist can use any name for that deity that he/she chooses - it's pretty non-denominational, which is why Alchemy is/was practiced pretty much everywhere, by people of pretty much any religion. In 1317, Pope John XXII issued a papal bull against Alchemy, but in 1330 he gave funds to set up an Alchemy lab (he is believed to have secretly practiced Alchemy - the bull was against Alchemy because of the destabilization that would take place if gold became plentiful, not against Alchemy as a heresy). And in 1294 - 1303, Pope Boniface VIII openly practiced Alchemy in the Vatican. Alchemy is quite different from sorcery or witchcraft.

HopesOfTheSerene
15 Sep 2011, 13:03
Catholicism and mysticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mysticism#Catholicism)? Dunno. Hope this helps.

Corvus
15 Sep 2011, 18:41
I've heard of 'followers of the way' and 'white wiccans' who say they are christians using good witch craft. I don't really understand it because the bible says to chase all the wizards, necromancers, sorcerors, fortune tellers, witches, sooth sayers, ect. out of the cities and/or kill them. Maybe if you basically pretend the bible isn't the word of God to christians, you might be able to mix christian and pagan concepts. I still don't see it easiliy happening

Dez
16 Sep 2011, 08:29
I have two cents to toss in on that one, Corvus. We tend to think about the old testament as being a uniform work when it's a collection of small documents spanning a rather large chunk of time. There is a lot of archeological evidence that Hebrew beliefs changed dramatically over the course of the OT. For example(going from memory,so I hope I have this right) up until Jeramiah, it seems that Eloheim existed as the "one god" as the head of a small family pantheon, with Asherah as his companion, and Baal and Jehovah as sons. There were prophetesses (like Debora) and Asherah had a sacred poll dedicated to her in the temple.

Then there was a reformation. Bits of the bible from this period applaud getting rid of the groves, etc, when up until this time they had coexisted peacefully. We don't know exactly why it happened, but there's evidence that this is when the culture started to become much more patriarchal. This is also when prophets start coming down hard on any divinatory power other then their own. Seems to me as though they were weeding out the competition.

I could see it being possible to embrace what little we know about that original Semitic pantheon, especially if someone is not a literallist.

MaskedOne
16 Sep 2011, 10:23
Going only on scripture, there are also (if memory serves) a handful of arguments regarding translation that religioustolerance.org used to have posted that free up a couple options long as you aren't dealing in curses or divination. The problem for trying it with Catholocism is that the Church doesn't operate on a scripture alone policy and canon law is much less vulnerable to translation arguments. There are some wording tricks that could be played but it's simpler and largely more honest to just stop calling oneself Catholic and be content with being a witch that believes in Christ.

That said, there are also one or two areas where the US Bishops have classed something as superstition but not acquired a Vatican directive backing them. Specifically Reiki fits into this category.

Ophidia
16 Sep 2011, 14:55
Going only on scripture, there are also (if memory serves) a handful of arguments regarding translation that religioustolerance.org used to have posted that free up a couple options long as you aren't dealing in curses or divination.

It's probably this page (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_conf5c.htm), where they discuss the difference between 'witch' ('a practitioner of witchcraft', the definition as such that religioustolerance.org holds up to some debate) and 'm'khashepah' ('woman who curses other people and their property'). They also play fast and loose with a few of the terms used in Dueteronomy 18:10/11 in different versions of the Bible here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl3.htm).

MaskedOne
16 Sep 2011, 15:03
Those would be the pages I remember. Thanks, it's been years since I looked at those.

ChainLightning
16 Sep 2011, 18:24
Referring directly to the OP, that describes my mother, actually. She uses some few, basic green, or kitchen, witch, practices (incidentally, she claims that she picked them up through her grandmother) and claims to be Roman Catholic, at the same time.

Two things, though. One is that I don't keep it a secret that I think my mom is rather batshit nuts. She mixes reality with fantasy fairly regularly, and that's not in reference to religions, practices or her spiritual beliefs. Second is that I personally feel that Catholicism and witchcraft are mutually exclusive, simply because one forbids the other, in common understanding and definition.

So: Can it be done? Sure. Should it be done? That's a different question, with a much different answer.



Also, I wanted to say that mixing witchcraft with Catholicism shouldn't be confused with the varieties of voodoo or something akin to Santeria. There is a very distinct difference between using a few Catholic ideas in a very pagan-esque dogma and using a few pagan ideas in a very Catholic dogma.

Ophidia
16 Sep 2011, 20:37
I think what confuses people about syncretization is that Vodouisants, Santerians, etc. aren't Catholics or Christians. When a Catholic goes into a Catholic church and sees a statue of Saint Patrick, for instance, to that Catholic, it's Saint Patrick, the guy who drove all the snakes out of Ireland among other things.

When a member of one of the African Diaspora goes into a Catholic church, and sees a statue of Saint Patrick - it's not St. Patrick, stomper of snakes. It's Damballah or Obatala. The saint's image is just a costume, it's the lwa or orisha or spirit in disguise. Yes, a Vodouisant will include the Christian God and Jesus and the saints' names in many prayers (usually the 'public' ones), but in the AD, worship of any spirit or God is worship of All, offerings made to one spirit feed them All. In Vodou, it's silly for God to say, "thou shalt worship no other God before Me". It makes very little sense to them. Why would God not want to be honored in rites for the other spirits?

In some ways, the Christian God is syncretized with Bon Dieu or Olodumare (and most of the AD religions are 'soft' monotheistic if there can be such a thing) - but Bon Dieu or Olodumare don't mind if a person worships other lwa, orisha, Gods, ancestors, etc. In fact, Bon Dieu/Olodumare & Their equivalents are usually portrayed as being very distant from daily human activities, which is why the lwa/orisha/spirits act as go-betweens. For the most part, it's got to be something big for Bon Dieu to even listen to most of the lwa, let alone a flawed puny human with puny human troubles.

WillowMoon
13 Jan 2012, 03:51
I hope it's ok to jump in t this thread since it's a little old. Please kindly let me know if it is not, because on another forum that I do not go to any more, I got ridiculed for it, and it was not listed anywhere in the rules. Anyway, I was going to open up a different thread, before I found this post, because I am wondering almost the same, about Christianity and Paganism being combined. (that was a disaster discussion on a the same web site as I mentioned above) I don't know if it can easily be meshed together without someone stepping in and questioning you. I think, that if you have the ability to back up your reasoning, then yes, you could possibly mix both Catholicism and Witchcraft. :)

MaskedOne
13 Jan 2012, 07:53
Shrug, the question isn't a problem. It pops up a couple times a year. The easiest answer is that it depends on perspective. Incorporating Christianity into Paganism is easy since Paganism is pretty open-ended. By contrast, some rather sizable elements of Christianity come with elements of doctrine that respond various elements of Paganism with "not only no, but hell no." A Christian* attempting to add Pagan elements is going to have a headache on their hands trying to fit elements together with minimal blatant contradiction and may have to drop some pieces of doctrine while they're at it.

* Noting that there are a LOT of Christian sects and some will have a much easier time than others.

turningtides
13 Jan 2012, 20:41
I hope it's ok to jump in t this thread since it's a little old. Please kindly let me know if it is not, because on another forum that I do not go to any more, I got ridiculed for it, and it was not listed anywhere in the rules. Anyway, I was going to open up a different thread, before I found this post, because I am wondering almost the same, about Christianity and Paganism being combined. (that was a disaster discussion on a the same web site as I mentioned above) I don't know if it can easily be meshed together without someone stepping in and questioning you. I think, that if you have the ability to back up your reasoning, then yes, you could possibly mix both Catholicism and Witchcraft. :)

It's a good question that I think about, since I DO mix Catholicism and Witchcraft--or rather, just the Craft and/or pagan awareness, as I am not Wiccan. When you say mixing both Catholicism and Witchcraft, are you talking about Wicca/the Craft itself as the religion? Or do you mean the Craft as a system of worship to God(s)? In my mind, the Craft is also the elements that many of our ancestors did in the past to worship the gods. How 'pagan' it is might depend on which side of the fence a person is standing in.

In Catholicism there is both Scripture and Tradition. And within the Tradition there is "popular piety", which is basically the celebrations and worship of the people as they have done, often long before Christianity walked onto that country's shores. While the people DO worship the divine in Christianity (the Holy Trinity, Mary, and the saints), Your Mileage May Vary quickly comes into play. The veneration of Mary herself was a groundswell from the people until the Church could no longer ignore it or Her. I do leave offerings of flowers, stones and seasonal items at my shrine to Mary, and make prayer beads as I petition the guide(s)/angels of the receiver to bless it. I have an angel oracle deck that I use to probe my own understanding, but it's still divination. The bible itself has several examples of magic and divination by the prophets. Most Catholics would NOT worship the Triple Goddess, the Green Man, or any deities from other pantheons. That doesn't mean that there haven't been elements of paganism and magic within Christianity itself, that is already practiced by other Christians (speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, etc.).

WillowMoon
14 Jan 2012, 04:15
It's a good question that I think about, since I DO mix Catholicism and Witchcraft--or rather, just the Craft and/or pagan awareness, as I am not Wiccan. When you say mixing both Catholicism and Witchcraft, are you talking about Wicca/the Craft itself as the religion? Or do you mean the Craft as a system of worship to God(s)? In my mind, the Craft is also the elements that many of our ancestors did in the past to worship the gods. How 'pagan' it is might depend on which side of the fence a person is standing in.

In Catholicism there is both Scripture and Tradition. And within the Tradition there is "popular piety", which is basically the celebrations and worship of the people as they have done, often long before Christianity walked onto that country's shores. While the people DO worship the divine in Christianity (the Holy Trinity, Mary, and the saints), Your Mileage May Vary quickly comes into play. The veneration of Mary herself was a groundswell from the people until the Church could no longer ignore it or Her. I do leave offerings of flowers, stones and seasonal items at my shrine to Mary, and make prayer beads as I petition the guide(s)/angels of the receiver to bless it. I have an angel oracle deck that I use to probe my own understanding, but it's still divination. The bible itself has several examples of magic and divination by the prophets. Most Catholics would NOT worship the Triple Goddess, the Green Man, or any deities from other pantheons. That doesn't mean that there haven't been elements of paganism and magic within Christianity itself, that is already practiced by other Christians (speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, etc.).

Sorry, I wasn't the OP of this thread, and was only responding to the OP, so I can not answer your questions to the best of my abilities. She was talking about Witchcraft, so I was assuming she did not mean Wicca.

AuroraWinters
15 Jan 2012, 15:26
There are so many blatant contradictions in the Bible, or things that the Bible says to do or not do that don't fit with our society anymore so we just ignore them, that from a logical standpoint, I don't see how it would be any different to simply ignore the parts of the Bible that say "no witchcraft." BUT, Catholicism isn't just about Bible passages - it's very much a sect of Christianity that has a lot of "unwritten" rules, and even if you can tell yourself that witchcraft fits just fine with it, I doubt many fellow Catholics or priests would agree with you.

Not saying that you can't just make up your own rules and live your religion the way you want, just that you're gonna need to be ok with not being a "true" Catholic in a lot of people's eyes. I agree with previous statements that it would probably just be better to be a pagan who believes in Christ rather than trying to force yourself into a very specific Christian sect that wouldn't be accepting of other practices that you want in your spiritual life.

turningtides
15 Jan 2012, 22:27
Oh, that's ok! :D I think about toward the end of it I was mixing the two. Whoops!

Dez
15 Jan 2012, 22:41
Even if someone isn't supposed to do something, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen anyway. What about traditions like Voudon that have a very catholic front--Saint's pictures tied to each being, praying to God first, etc, etc? Cannon and culture are often two entirely different things.

thalassa
17 Jan 2012, 18:41
I hope it's ok to jump in t this thread since it's a little old. Please kindly let me know if it is not, because on another forum that I do not go to any more, I got ridiculed for it, and it was not listed anywhere in the rules.

If its open, feel free to go for it... If its old and not archived and we *don't* want someone answering it, then us mods/admins got sloppy/lazy at archiving and it is our fault, not yours. The only caveat to that, is if it is a specific personal issue that someone has posted about---unless you have/have had the same issue or something and want to share, if you notice that it is an old thread, it might not be applicable anymore, and you might not want to bother. There is very little we generally ridicule anyone for on this forum...really just rudeness and claiming UPG as some sort of universalism.


Anyway, I was going to open up a different thread, before I found this post, because I am wondering almost the same, about Christianity and Paganism being combined. (that was a disaster discussion on a the same web site as I mentioned above) I don't know if it can easily be meshed together without someone stepping in and questioning you. I think, that if you have the ability to back up your reasoning, then yes, you could possibly mix both Catholicism and Witchcraft. :)

IMO: Someone will always disagree/disapprove of your beliefs and practices and question them--whether it be eating meat, bottle feeding your child, believing in evolution...or religion. If someone has such little confidence in their beliefs that being questioned (or even criticized--which is different from being harassed) is personally demoralizing, then they should either rethink their beliefs or keep them to their selves.

With that being said...in response to the issue raised by the title--in all technicality, witchcraft (as I said in the beginning of this thread) is a *practice* (and one that encompasses a fairly large number of individual practices), not a belief system (though witchcraft can be combined with a belief system--as with some forms of Wicca) in and of itself. How an individual chooses to reconcile their practice of witchcraft with their religious practices that may prohibit it (such as Catholicism) is their business (isn't that what confession is good for? :p). I might add that witchcraft (or practices within witchcraft) is not necessarily prohibited for all Christianities (particularly liberal denominations such as the United Church of Christ or Christian-identifying Unitarian Universalists, etc)...not everyone (including Catholics) reads the Bible literally (or agrees with all the tenants of their faith--like my Catholic mother who is pro-choice, used birth control, disbelieves in the infallibility of the pope, thinks homosexual relationships should be approved by the church and thinks women should be priests...maybe she should have stayed UCC where all that is okay, lol).

Taking that to a wider discussion of mixing Paganism with Christianity, I have met (in my almost 20 years of being Pagan) quite a few people (online and off) that combine Jesus with their Paganism or aspects of Pagan religions with their Jesus (from Christo-Pagan syncretists to Trinitarian Wiccans to non-denominational Christian kitchen witches). Whether one considers them both Christian and Pagan depends on one's definition of Pagan and Christian. Syncretic and parallel practices and beliefs appear to have existed in whatever cultures Christianity expanded into, so I'm not too sure why people today are so freaked out about it now, and act like Christianity is some monolithic faith (yes, it is monotheistic--mostly, depending on your perspective...but their are still some 38,000 denominations of it that can't even agree on what a Christian *is*) that can't be combined with other beliefs or practices (IMO, this changes when you specify a particular denomination--some of them have stringent requirements).

DCorobane
30 Mar 2012, 19:22
Not to throw the thread for a loop but I think witchcraft and Christianity would work fine if the witch was going by pre-council of Nicea (I'm probably spelling that wrong, sorry) doctrine or even strictly Christ-based principles, which for many Christians is what the faith is really about. The gospel is to love EVERYONE and God. A witch can do that just as much as a non-witch can.
When you consider that the bible is written by man and inspired by God...after much debate, re-writing, voting on topics such as reincarnation and what not to do...then there is room for interpretation.
I see no reason why a witch can't call upon God in aid of a healing spell for a friend - isn't herbalism plus faith a sort of magic anyways? Or pray to Christ for aid in prosperity while lighting a green candle. Many witches are monotheist anyways.
I feel like trying to say someone can't be a Christian and a Witch is really splitting hairs in this day and age.

Ophidia
30 Mar 2012, 20:58
Isn't herbalism plus faith a sort of magic anyways?

Faith may be a type of magic, or magic may be a type of faith, but leave the herbs out of it. Many herbs, plants & various other organic substances contain compounds that have valid medicinal properties (i.e., drugs) and are the organic basis for many synthesized pharmaceuticals.

Larix
13 Jun 2012, 19:10
Sounds pretty oxymoronic .....

On the face of it, yes.

But actually, Catholicism contains many pagan elements.

So the two may go well together, if well understood. :)

Louisvillian
14 Jun 2012, 11:37
As I talked about recently in another thread, there's considerable precedence of Christianity mixing with "pagan" folk magic practices/beliefs in the form of Folk Christianity. It was really the norm rather than the exception up until the Early Modern period, though strains of it still persisted through cultural customs, folk beliefs, and folklore--just think of the devotions and patronage ascribed to certain Saints. And sometimes in the form of cunning-folk, healers, and mystics. Even family traditions thereof. It's arguably seen a sort-of revival since the 1960's, at least in the US, considering how popular certain Spiritualist and semi-New Age thought is.

And a side note: "Witchcraft" as talked about in the pagan revival is a very retroactive term. It wouldn't have ever been what people called themselves; rather it'd be seen as the socially-unacceptable or fringe elements of folk magic practices. When modern pagans say "witchcraft" they mean something along the lines of "folk magic" as set of traditional practices.

Celtic Tiger
14 Jun 2012, 18:27
Sounds pretty oxymoronic but, i've heard of people practicing both. Any input anyone?
You can mix almost anything. Televangelists mix Christianity, which exalts the poor, with get rich quick and prosperity messages, not to mention the defrauding of their viewers. The Catholic church's practices are counter to Biblical mandate in so many ways that it would take more space to enumerate them than would be tasteful in one post, but having a priesthood is technically non-biblical, as is addressing a priest (or anyone else but God for that matter) as father (though I do not know of any Christian of any denomination who keeps to this; they all seem to call their Earthly father their father). So too is the fashioning of graven images (that was never undone in the NT), but a Catholic church is filled with them.

I have a very lengthy Catholic background, so I do feel somewhat qualified to answer. The many comments to the effect of 'you can, but don't tell your priest' is pretty accurate. As others have mentioned, there are a good many Catholics who engage in practices that are not approved by the Church. Then you have actions on the part of the clergy that violate Cannon law, Biblical command, and civil law, and yet those priests are not only not excommunicated, but are actively shielded from civil authorities.

I've only recently stopped identifying myself as Catholic, mainly because the amount of differences between the Catholic Church and my own beliefs have accumulated to such a degree that I felt it was no longer appropriate. The 2004 scandals and handling thereof kind of pushed me over the edge as well.

If someone wants to do it, I personally wouldn't call them 'not Catholic,' as that is really between them and their confessor, and I certainly would not frown upon them doing so. But given the Catholic position on witchcraft, I'm not sure why anyone would want to.

ACuriousPerson
08 Sep 2012, 16:46
I actually tried studying witchcraft back when I was Catholic, and I guess I'm still into it but in no way as much as I was before. There's no problem mixing beliefs or religions really, in my opinion. It just all adds up to your deeds on earth and if you served God well. Also as long as you don't use witchcraft for immoral purposes. I'm not saying that it's right, but at the same time I'm not saying it's wrong either. However an individual can become closer to God or their gods spiritually can help them find a place where they feel they belong and... :S
um basically I don't find anything wrong in combining beliefs/religions (as said before). :D

JamesByrne
08 Sep 2012, 17:12
Neither do I. What I consider real witchcraft (as in non codified neopaganism the folk stuff that inspired neopaganism) is practiced all over the world by catholics. Its only the people who decide that witchcraft is a religion who have a problem with it.

Id take 2 issues with them.
1. Most of them are protestants and have no idea what real ritual is like in religion anyway because they rely on a personal relationship with god and listen to an untrained pastor IF they go to services at all.
2.IME they are the minority of 'witches'. There are far more people out there practicing then even know the word witchcraft.Marketing a term doesnt make you the owner of it.

Tylluan Penry
09 Sep 2012, 03:06
Marketing a term doesnt make you the owner of it.

Oh yes. Absolutely!

callmeclemens
10 Sep 2012, 08:42
My whole life I have been a Catholic and still do consider myself a Catholic. My inspiration into Paganism began with research St Francis of Assisi who was truly one with Nature. Remember while most people would tell you Wicca is inherintley evil it really is not at all, especially if it brings you closer to "God".

Pomba Gira
15 Feb 2013, 08:51
Catholicism has been providing a cover for African Diaspora religions, Stregheria, etc., etc., for years. It lends itself well to that kind of thing.

It probably doesn't make you a "proper" Catholic, but it'll keep people from freaking out when they come to your house.

Louisvillian
17 Feb 2013, 23:12
Sounds pretty oxymoronic but, i've heard of people practicing both. Any input anyone?
It depends on what you describe "witchcraft" is. If we use the traditional definition and concept, then they're very incompatible.
But if we define it, as many in the Pagan community do, as simply another term for "folk magic", then that's an entirely different story. Folk magic has a long history of being fused with Christianity; how else do you think it lasted long enough, as a cultural practice, to be re-appropriated by the Neopagan movement?
Though, as MaskedOne said earlier in the thread, it would require considerable modification to Catholic beliefs.

Daughter of Toothless
02 Sep 2013, 21:19
When I first came across a facebook page that says Christian Witchcraft, I was actually pretty excited. I was slowly getting into studying Paganism and I thought it was actually pretty cool. I know of a Christian Witch on tumblr; very nice person to talk to. If witchcraft works for some Christians, then let them be. I don't know why people have a problem with Christian Witches. It's just their way of expressing their faith. I say live and let live and judge no one, no matter what they use to worship their deity.

Erika
03 Sep 2013, 04:42
I think people just figure that they're being oxymoronic because of the Old Testament passage saying 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,' but that doesn't take into account that the Ten Commandments are the hard-and-fast rules that you aren't supposed to break, the belief that you will be forgiven for your sins, or the debate about whether or not 'witch' was in fact a mistranslation of 'poisoner.' I tend to think that your path's yours, and if you're okay, I really don't have any say in the matter, because it's not my business.

Immersion
09 Sep 2013, 18:08
I don't have a problem with mixing or following both. I do it myself. I grew up Catholic but lost interest due to a lack of spiritual satisfaction. A friend introduced me to Wicca (and subsequently witchcraft) and really liked many things about it and the path grew on me over time. I have not abandoned Catholicism nor rejected it completely. There are many things about the path which I still appreciate. I still hold onto it because of family tradition (mostly). I've read a considerable amount on the idea of mixing or following both paths and find the "negative" responses intriguing.

The Bible, being a collection of ancient books, was written in with much literary symbolism from that time. When reading or studying the Bible one must take this into account and correctly interpret the works by using the same literary symbolism. Too many people take the Bible literally and this is where problems arise. The Old Testament may have forbidden witchcraft but it is entirely possible (and I've read this from multiple sources I just wish I could remember them for this post) that what those writers had in mind then is different than witchcraft today.

Concerning any incompatibilities with Catholicism...well this can be a little vague. There is a distinct difference between the the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith. The strict hierarchy, rigidness, and politico-organization is the Church while the faith is accepting/embracing Jesus as God and living a spiritual life as he taught. The faith concerns itself with the New Testament. *A lot* of people don't see a difference between the two and I don't know why that is.

Given how much of the Church and faith are built upon previously existing pagan religions, I don't see why integrating witchcraft or Wicca with Catholicism would be problematic.

Anyway, that's my two cents!

Louisvillian
14 Sep 2013, 03:35
or the debate about whether or not 'witch' was in fact a mistranslation of 'poisoner.'
It's not really a mistranslation. A lot of languages have a term that means equivalently 'poisoner' when taken literally, but has strong connotations of a person using harmful magic for personal gain or evil motives. Frank fact is, Modern Witchcraft's notion of being a 'witch' is almost a misnomer; it changed the definition to mean a practitioner of folk magic in general, rather than a person who works in harmful magic; it doesn't fit at all with historical usage of the term, or its equivalents in other languages.
But I've said that before, time and time again.

Ula
14 Sep 2013, 05:28
My good friend is Catholic, Native American and practices what I would call witchcraft. She does herbal remedies for illness, natural soaps and oils, spells. She just calls on Christ and Mary to bless her work and is an animist.

MyValenwind
15 Sep 2013, 03:26
If I remember correctly from a discussion I had with a friend that has a theology minor, that especially pre-Protestant reformation, what wasn't necessarily called Witchcraft (but can definitely identify as such) was practiced by a few Saints in forms of divination. In many cases Priests needed to seek outside sources for different occurrences, personal situations, etc., and as long as it was done for God, it was a-OK.
Catholicism and Witchcraft really aren't too much different except for doctrine and deity. I've had a discussion with one priest who totally agreed that my path and his path were very much alike, and I've been able to go to quite a few times to mass and personally analyzed the similarities and differences between mass and neopagan ritual (like hello, cakes and ale).
And the debate about the liturgical year being based off the lunar calendar, well, yeah.
I have never felt more at home in any other church than a Catholic church- well at least a Catholic church that isn't full of Fundies. Thats what I think the problem is with today's Catholicism, is that protestant fundies are overrunning the church. Else, they wouldn't be so in the news all the time and spewing controversial statements (lets not bring up the abuse scandals for once), tending to the poor and minding their own business- like Pope Francis.

Hafthor
10 Oct 2013, 12:33
^This for sure

Catholicism is about as close to a pagan tradition that Christians can get, without becoming fully pagan. Yes they worship Jesus, but they also have a very close relationship with Mary and all the Saints. In fact the Church pushed heavy for the Saints for the reason that pagans have many Gods that do work for them...just like Catholics might pray to St. Joesph to find a lost item.

We all know that Catholicism took over the pagan ways and made them Catholic so that people could better convert.

DON
06 Feb 2014, 14:19
I don't really see a big difference between the rituals practised by the catholic church and pagan rituals. Catholics claim that their intent is different but the scriptures are clear that your intent has nothing to do with worship.

Rowanwood
06 Feb 2014, 14:30
I don't really see a big difference between the rituals practised by the catholic church and pagan rituals. Catholics claim that their intent is different but the scriptures are clear that your intent has nothing to do with worship.

I find that appears to be the common belief among Born Again Christians that Catholics are actually pagan, not Christian. Is that what you are saying? Just curious, as my brother-in-law is a born again Christian but its a touchy subject at family gatherings, as you can imagine.

Medusa
06 Feb 2014, 14:36
Seriously Catholicism is like the 101 to rituals and magic. That's honestly why it's so popular to be honest. Think about it. Christianity is boooooooooring. Being a Catholic? The candles. The incense. The red velvet robes. It's sexy, man.

thalassa
06 Feb 2014, 16:25
I don't really see a big difference between the rituals practised by the catholic church and pagan rituals. Catholics claim that their intent is different but the scriptures are clear that your intent has nothing to do with worship.

I don't see much of a difference between any Christian ritual and a Pagan one. From the Pentecostals to the Episcopalians to the Baptists to the Catholics--they are all about a half step from the line of doing *something* that we do. The more charismatic, Evangelical, or fundamentalist it is, the more Pagan it looks. Speaking in tongues? Full body immersion baptism? Snake handling? Casting out demons? Hands-on healing? Praying for direct intervention from deity? Thinking you are being personally visited by deity? Invoking the Holy Spirit? Recognizing God beyond gender?

Oh yeah, Christians are just a bunch of Pagans doing religion with Jesus.

Rae'ya
06 Feb 2014, 16:50
I don't see much of a difference between any Christian ritual and a Pagan one. From the Pentecostals to the Episcopalians to the Baptists to the Catholics--they are all about a half step from the line of doing *something* that we do. The more charismatic, Evangelical, or fundamentalist it is, the more Pagan it looks. Speaking in tongues? Full body immersion baptism? Snake handling? Casting out demons? Hands-on healing? Praying for direct intervention from deity? Thinking you are being personally visited by deity? Invoking the Holy Spirit? Recognizing God beyond gender?

Oh yeah, Christians are just a bunch of Pagans doing religion with Jesus.

Evidently I've rep'ed you too recently, Thal... but this is GOLD.



I don't really see a big difference between the rituals practised by the catholic church and pagan rituals. Catholics claim that their intent is different but the scriptures are clear that your intent has nothing to do with worship.

I was raised Catholic and I am constantly amazed by how the Protestant faiths in the US view Catholicism. Sometimes I feel like I live in a twilight zone where 'Catholic' here means something completely different to in the US.

Pagans don't have a patent out on ritual. Period.

Add to that the fact that Gardner, when he invented Wicca, borrowed most of his ceremonial and ritual content from groups such as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (most of whom where Christian mystics) and it's not difficult to see why pagan ritual seems so similar to Catholic ritual. If you go back further, most of the grimoires and magickal tomes going back to medieval times were written by Catholic clergy. At that point in time, 'pagan' meant something different, and most of the paths that we consider to have been handed down to us now were at that time focusing on folk practices and cottage craft, not ceremony and ritual.

Lots of faiths do ritual. LOTS. That doesn't make them all pagan or pagan-like. It just makes ritual a VERY common thing.

DON
06 Feb 2014, 17:49
I find that appears to be the common belief among Born Again Christians that Catholics are actually pagan, not Christian. Is that what you are saying? Just curious, as my brother-in-law is a born again Christian but its a touchy subject at family gatherings, as you can imagine.

It's a tricky one for sure. Salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ is a free gift, and so anyone who accepts that gift has eternal life in heaven. This means any Catholic who accepts the gift by this definition is Christian, and this can only be reversed one of two ways - explicitly renouncing Jesus, or taking the mark of the beast. Only one of those is non reversible BTW.

Then there are very specific verses that imply that salvation can be lost. The warning to the Laodicean Church comes to mind, which was a warning that their luke warmness would result in rejection.

This is a topic that the church itself can't agree on. All I can say is that your family gatherings will continue to be interesting.

Now I'd like to point out that rituals exist everywhere. Abraham was instructed by God to perform rituals. The prophetic feast days are rituals. Invoking the name of Jesus Christ to heal or deliver is a ritual of sorts. I guess this is because there are common laws when dealing with the spiritual realm. It's astounding how often YWH centred spiritual practices are direct mirror images of those that are not. Even the simple things like the determination of when a day starts and ends.

It is easy to notice the similarities and think they are the same, just like a mirror image can be mistaken for the original.

Medusa
06 Feb 2014, 18:00
But salvation isn't a gift. It's a free sample of cocaine. The number one reason I hate the concept of Christianity at its core is this concept. I can agree that most of its morals and rules are passable. But when I look deep down at the core belief of Salvation it pisses me off to no end.

thalassa
06 Feb 2014, 18:14
It is easy to notice the similarities and think they are the same, just like a mirror image can be mistaken for the original.

Ritual is ritual. Deity is deity. People are people. The details are different--the clothing, the names, the words. The feelings and faith are the same.

And those are the only things that matter.

Rowanwood
06 Feb 2014, 18:27
Ritual is ritual. Deity is deity. People are people. The details are different--the clothing, the names, the words. The feelings and faith are the same.

And those are the only things that matter.

Christians as a general rule (and in my experience so YMMV) seem to take the idea of collective mind and faith as a giant insult. The idea that your god might be on the same level as their is inherently offensive...considering the whole "thou shalt have no other gods before me" business.

It is honestly the one real beef I still hold for the faith, is this.

Having practiced a wide variety of faiths over the years, and having interacted with many, those true in faith seem to have no issues. I remember reading a story Joseph Campbell told about an interfaith gathering in the 1960s where some Christian Monks and Buddhist monks got together and had no trouble understanding each other...yet those without that total immersion in faith which organized Christianity encourages, makes it a real struggle for a lot of adherents to really get that full body faith to the point where someone else's god no longer threatens them.

It is one perk of many forms of paganism. I'm a priestess, a nun, a monk, and a deity myself. I don't need anyone else to talk to god for me. God is part of me. There's no separation, hence its always a full on, full body experience.

The God of Christianity doesn't threaten me and the faith of his followers doesn't threaten my faith at all. I feel some compassion for those who have to struggle to cling to their beliefs by denigrating those of others, like a awkward school yard bully.

Malflick
06 Feb 2014, 18:35
*starts writing post*

*that can lead nowhere good*

*just walks away*

*but seriously folks...?*

*leaves thread*

Rowanwood
06 Feb 2014, 18:51
*starts writing post*

*that can lead nowhere good*

*just walks away*

*but seriously folks...?*

*leaves thread*

I would LOVE to hear how I'm wrong. No, really. I mean this absolutely without sarcasm. I want us all to understand each other, but every time I've brought up religious syncretism with Christians, I've been shot down hard. Do you think it can happen? Can a Christian truly accept the parallels with paganism and other faiths and accept they are as valid a path...while still remaining true to their own tenets?

Malflick
06 Feb 2014, 19:06
I would LOVE to hear how I'm wrong. No, really. I mean this absolutely without sarcasm. I want us all to understand each other, but every time I've brought up religious syncretism with Christians, I've been shot down hard. Do you think it can happen? Can a Christian truly accept the parallels with paganism and other faiths and accept they are as valid a path...while still remaining true to their own tenets?

I was referring to Salvation being Cocaine. Your post had nothing to do with it. I hadn't even read it when I wrote that. I was still staring at salvation being cocaine.

- - - Updated - - -

Seriously, just, that post. Cocaine? Seriously?

- - - Updated - - -

Also, yes, they can accept that. I do. So, yeah. There are a crap ton of parallels. I remember bonding with my girlfriend over votive candles similarity to candle magic most fondly.

Medusa
06 Feb 2014, 19:10
I was referring to Salvation being Cocaine. Your post had nothing to do with it. I hadn't even read it when I wrote that. I was still staring at salvation being cocaine.

- - - Updated - - -

Seriously, just, that post. Cocaine? Seriously?

Eh, you are going to make me get out of my bed all cozy and stuff, aren't you? Ok. So I'll explain. I'm a former Catholic. When I say that I mean I was raised Roman Catholic. But I was never a believer. Even though I had to go through it. Because as a Mexican in a Mexican family, eh, it's what you do. No questions. My father died when I was 11 and I stopped being a pretend Catholic. At 15 I became a LaVeyan Satanist.

Now my comment about salvation. What pushed me away from Catholicism was the idea of Salvation. Great! I can be saved! From what? Well you are human. You are born into original sin. You are paying the price of Adam and Eve. They sinned. Ergo you are their blood. It's blood sin. There you go. But you can kill my son/me and all will be forgiven. Your sins will be forgiven. You can get saved from the sin and be just like the rest.

I don't need to be saved. I was born this way (to quote Gaga quoting anyone else before her). The idea that I NEED salvation is a set up. It's the drug dealer pushing you the need. When all along I didn't need to be saved because there is nothing wrong with me. I will not spend my life following orders of how to get saved when the thing that needs me to be saved made it possible that I have to be saved.


I break free of that shit.

*and now back to mah bed.

Rae'ya
06 Feb 2014, 19:13
I was referring to Salvation being Cocaine. Your post had nothing to do with it. I hadn't even read it when I wrote that. I was still staring at salvation being cocaine.

Don't look her in the eyes and you'll be fine. I'm interested in the underlying idea alluded to with that analogy. I don't necessarily agree, but it has the potential to spark off an interesting discussion about whether or not Salvation is a tangible goal or simply an illusion. If you don't want to ask her, I will. I don't think that it necessarily has to end in tears.

And Rowanwood has some interesting points too, especially regarding the ideas about total faith and what behaviours may be fed by an underlying feeling of being threatened by the faith of others.

Given that we're well off topic (twice) and the OP of this post is from 2011, should we ask a mod to split this off so we can get our teeth into some of these questions? I'm keen if you guys are.

- - - Updated - - -

She bet us to it. lol

Rowanwood
06 Feb 2014, 19:13
I'm all for it. :)

Rae'ya
06 Feb 2014, 19:19
Eh, you are going to make me get out of my bed all cozy and stuff, aren't you? Ok. So I'll explain. I'm a former Catholic. When I say that I mean I was raised Roman Catholic. But I was never a believer. Even though I had to go through it. Because as a Mexican in a Mexican family, eh, it's what you do. No questions. My father died when I was 11 and I stopped being a pretend Catholic. At 15 I became a LaVeyan Satanist.

Now my comment about salvation. What pushed me away from Catholicism was the idea of Salvation. Great! I can be saved! From what? Well you are human. You are born into original sin. You are paying the price of Adam and Eve. They sinned. Ergo you are their blood. It's blood sin. There you go. But you can kill my son/me and all will be forgiven. Your sins will be forgiven. You can get saved from the sin and be just like the rest.

I don't need to be saved. I was born this way (to quote Gaga quoting anyone else before her). The idea that I NEED salvation is a set up. It's the drug dealer pushing you the need. When all along I didn't need to be saved because there is nothing wrong with me. I will not spend my life following orders of how to get saved when the thing that needs me to be saved made it possible that I have to be saved.


I break free of that shit.

*and now back to mah bed.

The only thing that I would change or add here would be that I don't believe that everyone has the same goals as us. Some people feel that they do in fact 'need' to be saved, because their end goal is to bask in the eternal presence of YHVH. I always thought that there was a very good reason that the analogy of Jesus being a shepherd and the congregation his flock is such a strong and popular one. Some people WANT to be the flock. So to them, Salvation is a very real and worthwhile concept.

Us... we're the wolves who feel that Salvation is a self perpetuating illusion. Because that's not our goal.

Medusa
06 Feb 2014, 19:20
Didn't mean to be flippant and get a hassle started. But..if I am an atheist I have no belief in deity. I have no belief in heaven or hell in any deity belief structure. So why would I believe I need salvation? The very idea repulses me. I don't like feeling duped or coerced. I don't like feeling threatened or coddled. There are two ways to think of salvation: 1, yay, I'm saved! 2, Shit, I ain't saved. But from what?

You are born
you need to be saved.
Something is terribly wrong there.
Someone is lying to you.

Salvation is another word for power over you. Something holds salvation while you do anything you can to get it.

*i'd also add that I hold this one belief very strongly. It does not waver. I do not say so being 'a rebellious teen' etc trying to just sound tough. I have the very words of no salvation on my body. I hold it to be my one solid sincere truth. And it makes my life better for it.

Juniper
06 Feb 2014, 19:20
What exactly are we supposed to split off? Truly, I think someone should just start a new topic with the specific questions/text quoted.

I momentarily had a 'WTF, why is this thread still alive?' moment. Unless one of the other mods feels up to it, I can't be arsed to sift through this heap.

Medusa
06 Feb 2014, 19:23
Eh just let it ride. We all know where we are at this point! :p

Malflick
06 Feb 2014, 19:25
Eh, you are going to make me get out of my bed all cozy and stuff, aren't you? Ok. So I'll explain. I'm a former Catholic. When I say that I mean I was raised Roman Catholic. But I was never a believer. Even though I had to go through it. Because as a Mexican in a Mexican family, eh, it's what you do. No questions. My father died when I was 11 and I stopped being a pretend Catholic. At 15 I became a LaVeyan Satanist.

Now my comment about salvation. What pushed me away from Catholicism was the idea of Salvation. Great! I can be saved! From what? Well you are human. You are born into original sin. You are paying the price of Adam and Eve. They sinned. Ergo you are their blood. It's blood sin. There you go. But you can kill my son/me and all will be forgiven. Your sins will be forgiven. You can get saved from the sin and be just like the rest.

I don't need to be saved. I was born this way (to quote Gaga quoting anyone else before her). The idea that I NEED salvation is a set up. It's the drug dealer pushing you the need. When all along I didn't need to be saved because there is nothing wrong with me. I will not spend my life following orders of how to get saved when the thing that needs me to be saved made it possible that I have to be saved.


I break free of that shit.

*and now back to mah bed.

I think our perspectives on this are so radically different I'm not sure responding would really be worth either of our time. While I could certainly go into detail about what I believe on this topic and where I am coming from, it wouldn't change much. I think we have a massively different idea of salvation, and I also think we went radically different Catholic churches growing up.

Salvation isn't a burden, or a guilt trip, its a gift. It doesn't mean you were worthless, it means you were always loved, and meant to be loved.

But like I said, we aren't going to agree on this :P

- - - Updated - - -


Don't look her in the eyes and you'll be fine. I'm interested in the underlying idea alluded to with that analogy. I don't necessarily agree, but it has the potential to spark off an interesting discussion about whether or not Salvation is a tangible goal or simply an illusion. If you don't want to ask her, I will. I don't think that it necessarily has to end in tears.

And Rowanwood has some interesting points too, especially regarding the ideas about total faith and what behaviours may be fed by an underlying feeling of being threatened by the faith of others.

Given that we're well off topic (twice) and the OP of this post is from 2011, should we ask a mod to split this off so we can get our teeth into some of these questions? I'm keen if you guys are.

- - - Updated - - -

She bet us to it. lol

I'm not particularly interested in talking more about Salvation, frankly it would be a pretty boring circular conversation.

More talk about religious synchronicity would be interesting for sure though.

Medusa
06 Feb 2014, 19:30
I was always loved.
But I was flawed, wasn't I?
That's why I NEED salvation.

Rae'ya
06 Feb 2014, 19:32
I'm not particularly interested in talking more about Salvation, frankly it would be a pretty boring circular conversation.

More talk about religious synchronicity would be interesting for sure though.

Awwww okay, we'll call it quits on the Salvation part (I am still interested in your thoughts, though).

*goes off to start something about religious synchronicity*

- - - Updated - - -

... when she figures out how to quote Rowanwood into an entirely new thread...

Medusa
06 Feb 2014, 19:32
sowwy. No more salvation talk. Let's get back to witchcraft aka Catholicism 101 for newbies. :devil:

Juniper
06 Feb 2014, 19:32
More talk about religious synchronicity would be interesting for sure though.

^ will be the only thing that's going to keep this thread open, IMO.

Rae'ya
06 Feb 2014, 19:44
Religious synchronicity discussion this way... (http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?7539-Religious-Syncronicity&p=132324#post132324)

You guys do realise that if you don't get involved then I am never starting another thread again, right? :p

Malflick
06 Feb 2014, 19:46
I'm writing a post hold your horses lol!

Juniper
06 Feb 2014, 19:46
Thank's Rae'ya. I'm gonna lock this topic. Since a new thread's been created and the OP of this one is not with us anymore, anyway... No reason to keep this thing around.