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View Full Version : Debate Topic Contrasting The Wild Hunt with Korean Shamanism and Reiki



Troll_ov_Grimness
18 Sep 2011, 17:01
Ok this starts out with a mouthful. But I think they all connect.

Solitary attunement is possible.
Temple Of The Vampire (http://www.vampiretemple.com/) is an example of that. Which reminds one of The Wild Hunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt) . Expressed pretty well in a Therion song of the same name (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK9DpY130OA).

Hunted by the gargoyles through the labyrinth.
Loosing Ariadne's thread. I'm gone astray!
Tumbling into chaos without anything
And my holy guardian angel has walked away.
I'm chasing my shadow inside my own soul
I am the persecutor of my self in the wild hunt
The horned god take me through infernal journeys
The dogs are barking and the owls cry out loud,
Shadows are laughing and screaming in my ears.
I see the outline of the horned man-in-black.
He stretch his hand to my left shoulder in fear.
I'm chasing my shadow inside my own soul
I am the persecutor of my self in the wild hunt
The horned god take me through infernal journeys
I throw my self into all the demons. I cast my self into the wild hunt
The forest is the labyrinth of fear and all the dead running in the hunt.
I give my self unto all my demons and let they eat of my mind and soul.
I will gain strange powers in this ravage. I cast my self into the wild hunt
I'm chasing my shadow inside my own soul
I am the persecutor of my self in the wild hunt
The horned god take me through infernal journeys


Quick overview of Korean shamanism (Muism) on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRlUy2dyBQA) . It's short. Under 6min long.

Korean television show about the supernatural, called 'Shocking Life'. (http://www.dramafever.com/drama/123/1/Shocking_Life_-_Supernatural/) . This show starts off in a sensationalist television gimmicky sort of way but then it moves to a portrait of a young female charismatic mudang. However the show begins with a portrait of the 'hereditary' style.

FINALLY,
For a very good overview of these two ideas of the same folk tradition you will want to look at this article (https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/handle/2022/2020). It concerns the training process of charismatic mudang. These are people who start learning their customs beginning with a psychotic episode.

...

Now.

IMHO,
Korean shamanism is a lot like reiki attunement.

And when you start looking into Korean shamanism, you realize it is a lot like the Wild Hunt. Which is... something of note to pagans.

Hence. My whole point.

Thank you. Have at me.

Any other books you recommend along this line of thinking would be great.

Dez
19 Sep 2011, 18:51
I'm sorry but...what's the wild hunt?

thalassa
20 Sep 2011, 03:21
I'm sorry but...what's the wild hunt?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7a/Aasgaardreien_peter_nicolai_arbo_mindre.jpg/325px-Aasgaardreien_peter_nicolai_arbo_mindre.jpg


"When the winter winds blow and the Yule fires are lit, it is best to stay indoors, safely shut away from the dark paths and the wild heaths. Those who wander out by themselves during the Yule-nights may hear a sudden rustling through the tops of the trees - a rustling that might be the wind, though the rest of the wood is still.

"But then the barking of dogs fills the air, and the host of wild souls sweeps down, fire flashing from the eyes of the black hounds and the hooves of the black horses"
Kveldulf Hagen Gundarsson (Mountain Thunder)

I'm not precisely sure whose mythology it really "belongs" to (in origin, I mean, though it seems it might have started out as a tale of Odin) since it shows up in several different mythologies and folktales and attirbuted to different gods, heroes and historical figures (and under different names)...but its basically a supernatural hunting party that won't quit (until they ride their quarry down to the ground). I've seen said to be "'lead" by Odin, Herne, King Arthur in a French tale, King Herla in some English tales (who's story may be a derivative of Odin). Derivatives also show up in several different fantasy novels--The Obsidian Trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory, as the Starry Hunt (great books, BTW--and what made me learn more about it),some urban fantasy series that attributes it to Cernunnos...and in LOTR, where Aragon summons the Army of the Dead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r622O7Kh4B4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r622O7Kh4B4

...there is even an American version, from an old cowboy song (of which Johnny Cash did a version).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmxB2BwVufA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmxB2BwVufA


An old cowpoke went ridin' out one dark and windy day,
Upon a ridge he rested as he went along his way
When all at once a mighty herd of red eyed cows he saw
Come rushin' through the ragged skies and up a cloudy draw.

Their brands were still on fire and their hooves were made of steel
Their horns were black and shiny and their hot breath you could feel
A bolt of fear went through him as they thundered through the sky
He saw the riders coming hard... and he heard their mournful cry

Yipie i oh Yipie i ay
Ghost riders in the sky.

Their face is gaunt their eyes were blurred their shirts all soaked
With sweat
They're ridin' hard to catch that herd but they 'aint caught 'em yet
'cause they've got to ride forever in the range up in the sky
On horses snorting fire as they ride hard hear them cry

The riders leaned on by him he heard one call his name
If you want to save your soul from hell a riding on our range
Then cow - boy change your ways today or with us you will ride
Tryin' to catch this devil herd... a - cross these endless
Skies.

Yipie i oh Yipie i ay
Ghost riders in the sky.
Ghost riders in the sky.
Ghost riders in the sky.


I don't know enough about Korean Shamanism to say anything on that matter...but the Wild Hunt as a shamanistic sort of journeying would make sense.

Troll_ov_Grimness
20 Sep 2011, 04:56
I provided a lot of information in my OP to see the relation.

Korean Mu shamans worship what we would call warrior generals. In their folklore it is believed that they ride across the heavens waving flags and a shaman begins their initiation through communion and/or possession with these spirits.

thalassa
20 Sep 2011, 06:33
I provided a lot of information in my OP to see the relation.


But that's the point...the only thing someone who doesn't know more than superficial information on phenomenon can say is "well, it looks like there are some interesting parallels there". This isn't the first myth that has parallels in other cultures. I could also say that there looks to be some surface similarity to Voodoo...but its impossible for that to have any real meaning without real knowledge on the matter. AFAIK, we don't have anyone else onboard that has an interest on Korean Shamanism...actually, in my 18 years of being Pagan and participating in the Pagan community, I can honestly say this is the first time I've seen someone talk about it. It doesn't mean that its not an interesting topic on the matter...but without being properly framed for conversation and without knowing your audience here, I doubt you are going to get the sort of response you are looking for.

Troll_ov_Grimness
20 Sep 2011, 07:00
All I was looking for was perspectives from other old traditions of becoming a psychopomp. The idea of 'Becoming' ...something. Reiki has this idea too.

I don't mean to be vague. I mean to be very specific...

Dez
20 Sep 2011, 07:47
Thanks for that, Thal!

I agree with Thal that there are issues that can happen if someone works too hard to find correlations from distant cultures. There are all sorts of examples from my own childhood I could use as an example.

My bet is that what you are seeing are variations on themes that are often found in shamanistic practice, the world over. In many places, shamanism ended up integrating into later more organized religious systems, or even eventually into the local concept of christianity or buddhism, depending on geographic location. As for mentions of the wild hunt, I'd heard of it before, but needed you and Thal to remind me what it was (long week, been feeling yucky, long story). While most heathens worship the Aesir in a fairly standardized way, there are a small minority who have an interest in shamanism, and who claim that practitioners of Seid, followers of Odin, were possibly part of a shamanistic tradition similar to that of the Sami people (sometimes called Laplanders).

Troll_ov_Grimness
20 Sep 2011, 14:30
What I am mainly curious about is that both reiki and korean shamanism hold something in common which is that they can often result in the initiate developing a kind of psychosis. there are very real effects that draw the two disciplines together.

Any other transformative religious practices that develop a psychosis without any drug use?

I'm intrigued to learn of more. This is a hobby of mine.

Today (any of you live in Montreal?) I found some korean shamanism books in the local Concordia University library (although it didn't have the one I wanted) I took out a few things...

Shamans, Housewives, and Other Restless Spirits. Women In Korean Ritual Life by Laurel Kendall
University of Hawaii Press Honolulu

Korean Shamanism : The Cultural Paradox by Chongho Kim

An Initiation Kut For A Shaman
Filmaker Diana S. Lee with Anthropologist Laurel Kendall
An old shitty VHS from 1991 I almost broke.

This is a small world.

B. de Corbin
21 Sep 2011, 01:47
You might want to try Supernatural by Graham Handcock. He's particularly interested in the use of psychoactives by Shamanic cultures. Despite treating Terence McKenna as a creditable source, it's a pretty good book.

Troll_ov_Grimness
21 Sep 2011, 11:44
I have an anti drug policy.


You do not need drugs to do reiki for example.

Korean Shamanism is an entire civilization's worth of drugless shamanism

Street drugs or whatever you call them are illegal. And if I was a moderator I would ban you right now.

Many shamanic traditions are drug-less

B. de Corbin
21 Sep 2011, 12:09
I'm sorry - I misunderstood what you had said. It's still a good book and might be useful to you anyway.

And I think I'll let the moderators decide if I need to be banned for trying to help somebody with a question.

kijani
21 Sep 2011, 12:26
Troll, I AM a moderator. Nothing in Corbin's post was meant to promote drug use. He was merely commenting on an aspect of the book (and I saw nothing in his post about street drugs), something that is sometimes indeed prevalent in shamanic cultures and religions, especially depending upon which ones you are looking at and time periods. It is not for ANYONE other than the staff of this website to reprimand another member. Corbin's not going to be banned for making a comment.

Continue on with the debate please.

thalassa
21 Sep 2011, 13:07
Street drugs or whatever you call them are illegal. And if I was a moderator I would ban you right now.


I'm not going to bust out the mod-red, since K already did that...Instead I'm just going to say that the use of mind and mood altering substances (legal or not) is someone's own business, and is a valid topic of conversation, depending on how it is handled. I might add that an idea of the Wild Hunt as an experience that involves the use of drug-aided journeying is not a new one (and that isn't even what Corbin was talking about).

Corbin never specifically mentioned using illegal substances--there are plenty of legal ones, and even if he did, its not an automatic reason for censure, and even if it was, that's not your job. If you want to speak for yourself--that for some reason you have personal issues with drug use (not to be confused with drug abuse or drug addiction, which I don't think *anyone* supports here), its your business, provided its polite. But please, don't presume to tell a beloved member of several years what he can or cannot say on this forum, when you haven't been here long enough to find out for yourself.

With the exception of spam, there is very little we actually censor on this site. We carry the expectation that we are all reasonably mature individuals capable of making our own choices and carrying on (mostly) civilized conversations. And it takes a helluva lot more than talking about smoking a joint on here to get banned, much less a discussion of reading material.

Troll_ov_Grimness
21 Sep 2011, 18:09
Maybe then but now those drugs are mostly illegal, and they do NOT provide any advantage to becoming or practicing as a shaman.

So it OUGHT to be discouraged and punished.

But go ahead ruin your critical capacity and ruin your lives with criminal records

kijani
21 Sep 2011, 18:13
Troll, drop it or the thread will be locked.

Plain and simple. Corbin was making a point about the book he referenced. The end.


ALSO, on many native american reservations, the use of certain substances is in fact legal for traditional religious ceremonies. EITHER WAY, put it to rest and get back to the matter at hand, or I'll put it to rest for you and no one will be able to comment in the topic anymore.

Caelia
21 Sep 2011, 20:25
The idea of 'Becoming' ...something. Reiki has this idea too.

I don't mean to be vague. I mean to be very specific...

Which tradition of Reiki alludes to "becoming" something? The closest I can think of is something like the Ama Deus system, but that's not Reiki.

AzazelEblis
21 Sep 2011, 22:56
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29 I'm curious as to how the name for this practice arose. One interpretation not listed for answering a question with "mu," basically amounts to saying "unask the question," though it fits the commentary. A religion named for this word is going to intrigue me. So, how often do you practice?


But either way... I disagree about your relation. From what little I've been able to gather about Mundang, practitioners generally fall ill with more varied forms of shamanic sickness, which is to be treated with the initiation. While some reiki masters talk about having a "purification period" after attunement where some of the symptoms are similar, attunement and shamanic initiation play opposed roles about the sickness- one incites a short period of apparent illness which passes on it's own, the other cures such an illness which could go on indefinitely by initiating them into this new world.

While that song from a heavy metal band is quite entralling, I also cannot find much about said Wild Hunt actually granting anyone "power" of any sort. I'm used to it just being a sort of celestial event, where people are just at the mercy of chance, nature, and the supernatural forces that participate in both and the hunt. If you're unlucky, you go in and don't come back. If you're lucky, you don't get involved in the first place. My interpretation may be quite off here, but I have yet to find any references to this event as such an initiation as could be related to that of the Mundang.

This initiation could be related much more to many other traditions. It's quite the prolific template for a spiritual experience. It has even been suggested that rather than prostitution, the shaman was the world's first profession among humans, and this template for experience is wide spread among such practitioners. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism Even the Wikipedia entry on Shamanism illustrates this geographical diversity among what we call "shamans". But not only shamans experience this. Katragama's Priestesses in Hinduism, some of Tibetan Buddhists,... and I'm getting more convinced than ever that the Sufi trance-state of Wajd has similar effects if abused, but that's less than a perfect fit.

Heck, Even Taoism shares quite a bit more in common with this than simple reiki. One story for the origin of the I Ching (which inspired Lao Tsu's Tao Te Ching), is that it was originally practiced by a shaman who placed a tortoise shell into a fire to read the cracks that emerge. Traditional Chinese medicine didn't emerge from nothingness - it was crafted over centuries of experiementation from Taoist "Internal Alchemists", their own tradition descending from shamans who used even some entheogenic (psychoactive) herbs. Nevermind the similarities in ritual - Muist and Taoist (and probably Buddhist as well) folks all visibly exchanged quite a few ideas.

verlignus
22 Sep 2011, 07:31
Troll,

I find this very interesting indeed. Your posts show how the history and lore of peoples all over the World are similar in ways we generally do not give attention to.
For my part, i would refer you to the legacy of Diana in Stregheria lore. Diana led the Wild Hunt and looking into this may give you a perspective. There are other traditions who referred to the Wild Hunt so I am surprised that no one else responded to your call.
Beware of using modern poems and songs as a template for answers, much of the content is ego driven and can drift form the essence of the origins.

Troll_ov_Grimness
22 Sep 2011, 09:47
Therion is a band which deals with occult themes now for many years. They have their own occult society. I've never taken part but they are an exemplary heavy metal band. Since the song was by them, I assumed that the lyricist had read things that inclined him to write the lyrics in such way.

I've had trouble eating and been thin etc since I was a young child. If I was a native korean I would be the type of person pulled aside to undergo shinbyeong (?). The traditions of shamanism differ by geographical region generally divided by the Han river. I think what they mean, the shamans who try to both cure and undergo shinbyeong is that when you have your communion with spirits they will eat you so to speak and make you weak, and if you do not reconcile your fate you will continue to be weak and miserable, and through acceptance of the spirits in your life they will make you strong and assist you.

kijani
22 Sep 2011, 11:19
I have a question. Is this religious path something you found on the internet? Were you raised with it? I'm just curious where this stuff is coming from because I have never heard of it... which is entirely possible, as there are multitudes of religions on the Earth, but I'm just curious where it's all coming from.

Troll_ov_Grimness
22 Sep 2011, 14:37
I have a question. Is this religious path something you found on the internet? Were you raised with it? I'm just curious where this stuff is coming from because I have never heard of it... which is entirely possible, as there are multitudes of religions on the Earth, but I'm just curious where it's all coming from.

It is not a religion so much as the common folklore of Korean civilization. If you read about it there are anthropologists studying this and comparing notes and are all like these folks in this area of Korea are like this, and these folks are like that..

Where is it all coming from?

Korea.

In fact, in a lot of ways, it IS Korea.

If there was one spiritual idea that defines Korea as a nation for good or ill it is their shamans. All the other religions and philosophies are foreign to them.

The reason you haven't heard about it is simply because western understanding and familiarity with Korea and its civilization is up and coming.

Already, there has been lots of interest in Korean television dramas and cinema with lots of praise the world over, Korean cuisine and food... have you ever tried kim-chi? bulgogi and korean bbq? It's an experience not to be forgotten.

Korean dolls are also very popular with those who want finely crafted beautiful dolls.. Asian Ball Jointed Dolls originally pioneered by someone in the company Volks (Super Dollfie) now there are many Korean companies that make them. Like the one shown on left my avatar she is a Cerberus Project 'Soony' from a company called LUTS (http://www.eluts.com/) .

I am not a native Korean. I am like.. an 8th generation Canadian.

However,
When I was a teenager really enjoyed Anton Szandor LaVey's books. I would later buy some books by the Temple Of The Vampire (a 'society' closely linked to the Church Of Satan and their 'high ranking' members). At the same time I became interested in the TOV at this time was a college student and had met people who were investigating and being attuned to reiki. I noticed the parallels between the TOV teachings and reiki immediately but couldn't understand where the ideas from reiki came from surely not one person.

the answer?

shamanism.

Specifically, one nation in the world known as 'The Hermit Kingdom' that was never ransacked by foreign religions for centuries and centuries up until modern times had preserved a primitive kind of folk 'religion' (it is not a religion much it is not organized) based upon the communion with ancestor spirits.

Something that reiki masters do not tell you about. They want to control you and make you go to them instead of the source. the Temple Of The Vampire more or less tells you this outright that what you are doing are ancient practices of ancestor worship of spirit communion which was common in antiquity. People would consult oracles of the dead in places like the necromanteion of Greece.

And guess what. What is Korean shamanism? It is this. Lasted right up until modern times. Truly it is the same kind of beliefs and so I decided when I made my profile to promote that here as part of a larger burgeoning appreciation of Korean culture and views of life. I read this book by Dr. Kim Tae-kon and realized that it was his dying wish to see this book published and proliferated in western society because he believed that Korean shamanism was fundamentally humanistic, and connected all people to, truly, their pagan roots.

This Book is dedicated to Dr. Kim Tae-kon who has returned to “chaos,” the truly free place he has so eloquently described and to My Grandmother, who taught me so much About Korean Folk Religious Beliefs And their View of Life

Preface

I met Dr. Kim some 18 years ago, when I was writing my dissertation on Korean female mudangs. He had requested my help in translating his work into English. I am saddened by the fact that this translation was not completed until after he left us, but I hope that Dr. Kim's family will find consolation from his excellent work and his contribution to the study of Muism, which is his true legacy.
With his death, I feel we have lost a Shining Star in Muism research. His dedication and sacrifices have made our understanding of our Korean Folk Religion so much more accessible. It is my hope that his zealous efforts will be continued by the diffusion of the knowledge of Muism (Korean Shamanism) through Western culture.
When I interviewed Korean female charismatic mudangs, I was very touched by their pain, suffering, and their humanism. Their wisdom came from enduring pain and suffering. Each appeared to have been successful in sublimating their painful plight into a very comprehensive healing art. Their humaneness and empathetic connection to others appear to have come only from their own healing of their own wounds.
From the point of view of a Western-trained, clinical psychologist, the mudang's healing process, which occurred after projecting the causes of their own pain externally, doesn't seem particularly healthy, as no true encounter of problems takes place, and in interpersonal relationship issues a true meaning of “I” and “Thou” does not seem to occur. But I was most impressed by the abundant love, compassion, and caring displayed by mudangs, during their healing ceremony, which goes beyond the realm of logic and reason and concludes as an incredible healing process.
This translation would not have been possible without the help of Professor Choi Eun-sik, who took valuable time from his busy schedule to help his friend and colleague, Dr. Kim Tae-kon, so his work would not go unnoticed.
I also would like to thank Mr. Cecil Bishop for his editing and typing of the manuscript as well as his tremendous knowledge of religion.

kijani
22 Sep 2011, 16:08
Okay... No offense, but I am no further convinced of the argument now than I was before. I have lived in Japan. I spent time in Korea, and if this was so widely defined as you claim, I'm pretty sure I would have heard of it. Referencing anything by LeVay in conjunction with your talk of Korea makes absolutely no sense to me. Most people in that area of the world practice some form of buddhism, shinto, or confucianism. Nine times out of ten, if you ask someone on that side of the world, they may even claim they have no religion, even though they may observe some religious traditions. While each of the above may have some practices that seem shamanistic, I've never heard talk of this. I was actually hoping for some legitimate references for my own research...and the Temple of Vampires series or whatever it's called is not a legitimate academic reference as far as I'm concerned.

Now I'm even more confused as to how this went from a contrast of Korean Shamanism and the Wild Hunt to.... this post. Is that bottom section a copy/paste of a book from somewhere? References would be helpful.

Caelia
22 Sep 2011, 16:54
Now I'm even more confused as to how this went from a contrast of Korean Shamanism and the Wild Hunt to.... this post. Is that bottom section a copy/paste of a book from somewhere? References would be helpful.

I'm still waiting on which form of Reiki teaches one to "become" something...

Troll_ov_Grimness
22 Sep 2011, 17:32
Neither of you took the time to look at any of the links in my OP

so neither of you matter.

Those who can perform reiki do so at a cost and as an innate ability which separates them from the profane.

You cannot do reiki without attunement. Which is not the same as treatment.

Why do I have grab your hand and guide you to simple things like wikipedia?

And I won't drag you. Either look into and care or don't.

Dez
22 Sep 2011, 17:45
This is a final moderator warning. The people in this thread are going out of their way to help you, and I have seen animals treated with more respect. This is NOT the way we do things in this forum.

If you do not:
1. Simmer down
2. Treat your fellow members with respect.
3. Take a moment, back up, realize you just might not know as much as you think you do, and consider offering an apology to the two ladies you just offended.
4. Stop asking questions and then being angry when our answers don't seem to be what you want to hear.

I WILL take moderator action. Again, this is not acceptable, and if you do not like our rules in regard to respecting other members, you are free to go elsewhere. If you don't change your attitude, I or one of the other Admins or Mods will take care of that for you.

kijani
22 Sep 2011, 18:18
I did read the links. Wikipedia is not now, nor has it ever been a reputable academic source for information. It is editable by anyone with an internet connection, and is therefore unaccepted as any sort of reputable source by any reputable institute of higher learning. If this is a debate, debate. Don't throw a wall of text and wikipedia links at me, accuse me of not reading them, and be a jerk when I put my two cents into the conversation. I would post yet another warning, but I think Deseret has already covered what I would have said anyway. Chill out dude. This is supposed to be a debate. Debate is not defined as 'everyone reads wikipedia and then agrees with Troll.'

Caelia
22 Sep 2011, 18:25
Neither of you took the time to look at any of the links in my OP

so neither of you matter.

Those who can perform reiki do so at a cost and as an innate ability which separates them from the profane.

You cannot do reiki without attunement. Which is not the same as treatment.

Why do I have grab your hand and guide you to simple things like wikipedia?

And I won't drag you. Either look into and care or don't.

None of your links spoke of how Reiki "becomes" an individual. Reiki is universal energy so I don't see how one can enter any otherworldy state of mind since the practitioner is a conduit. One doesn't need to be in any "otherworldly" state to send Reiki. The closest you get is the gasshou, but that's more of a prayer to be able to serve as a conduit. It's a very passive role.

You have been asked to explain your position and how you came to your conclusions. You refuse to do that. I have simply asked what tradition of Reiki brought about this conclusion. You, instead of answering the question, threw a hissy fit. I don't like herrings, even if they're red.

And, honestly? I don't know why you think my question had to do with treatments since I was asking as a Practioner and as someone who is qualified to teach Usui Reiki. By the way, how long have you been practicing? I've been a Master level since 2005 in Usui Reiki. I've attuned one other member of this forum and have taught him up to 2nd level. Before the forum crashed I had a thread explaining each level of Usui Reiki Shiki Ryoho and answering the questions as they came along. Sure, I could have link dumped like there was no tomorrow. Sometimes, though, it is the person's duty as a Practitioner and as a Teacher to use their own words without ego.

While I "don't matter" is kinda endearing and amusing, I know this is all a ploy to skirt the issue. Truly, I think like DR pointed out you are very inexperienced at best. Plus, if you are truly attuned (which I highly question) you would realize you are acting out of anger, something against Usui-sensei's principles. Should I also mention the disrespect to elders? I think you need to meditate on a few things.

AzazelEblis
22 Sep 2011, 18:47
Neither of you took the time to look at any of the links in my OP

so neither of you matter.

Those who can perform reiki do so at a cost and as an innate ability which separates them from the profane.

You cannot do reiki without attunement. Which is not the same as treatment.

Why do I have grab your hand and guide you to simple things like wikipedia?

And I won't drag you. Either look into and care or don't.This is a debate. You put forward an idea, so support it with more than your word. Provide evidence that the Wild Hunt is some sort of initiatory experience, or don't bother bringing it up - because someone's artwork isn't cutting it. Or better yet, enumerate the non-trivial similarities.

I'm lax in that it's okay with me to link to a wikipedia article which cites credible sources (though that won't get everyone), or to say "I don't remember where this came from," but realize that the ideas you present could then be knocked over with *any* credible example. Yes, I did that in this thread with my assertion that the Wild Hunt was not an initiatory experience to my knowledge. Provide a well-reasoned argument or credible source that says this Wild Hunt *is* such, and my say-so folds. And if we're locked on say-so on both sides, this debate goes nowhere. Neither of us wants that.

I have a hard time relating the experience of giving/recieving Reiki to something of an initiation (again, which I'm pulling that stanza in the Therion song - you haven't stated *what similarities* you believe exist). And I'm not seeing where it relates to the practices of the mundang beyond "it's healing and it uses symbolism and spirituality". Feel free to correct me.

And hey, maybe I'm just too used to reading and writing math proofs to really construct your point for you. Maybe you wanted a discussion? Where we all explore it together, each contributing ideas. That's different than a debate, where we pick sides and support our positions with logic and evidence.

I don't mean this to sound like I'm talking down. I'm actually used to people coming in and not knowing quite what a debate is, and that instead we should help you build what you have into a debate to help you learn. With all the mod warnings, I hope you don't get banned before you have the opportunity to respond in a constructive manner.

Crimson Horizons
22 Sep 2011, 20:41
The first thing I notice is that if you are using Therion's The Wild Hunt as your basis for what the historical Wild Hunt represents you are doing yourself a grave disservice. The Wild Hunt as practiced by my ancestors bears virtually no resemblance to the song you link.

The second issue I have is that you are comparing a single ritual practice/event with what appears to be a belief system as well as a healing practice, and doing so poorly in my opinion. If you can see any correlation between the Wild Hunt and Reiki alone, your are doing so at the expense of every other incongruous aspect between the two. The Wild Hunt was primarily something to be feared and almost never trifled with. From what I understand about Reiki, it involves a variation of faith healing and meditation, though I readily admit my knowledge of Reiki is limited. Still, from what I do know, I can find no similarities between the two.

Moving beyond that, after reading the majority of the "Charismatic 'Mudang'" article you link to, I can see little connexion between Korean Shamanism and the Wild Hunt. I can, however, see some similarities between the native European religions and what the article describes. That said, the article itself says that there is little written information on the practice and everything the author describes therein are from sources claiming to be ancestral practitioners of the Charismatic Mudang, which is another issue altogether.

I suppose that I am at a loss as to what exactly the purpose of this thread is. As AzazelEblis points out, it is almost as if you are looking for a discussion on the topic, which is fine. If you are looking for debate, honest debate, then you are going about it all wrong. Attacking established members when you cannot (or will not) refute their positions nor answer their questions is decidedly not a debate, neither is it a discussion, nor is it good etiquette in any forum that I am aware of. You may wish to re-evaluate a) what it is you want this thread to lead to, and b) your internet manners.

Troll_ov_Grimness
23 Sep 2011, 06:51
The koreans worship the spirits of warrior generals. From an actual case history of shinbyong (initiation shaman illness),

"That night she had a dream in which many shillyong (spirits) riding horses, came into her house, waving flags and swords. [This signifies in Korean folk lore that one is being possessed] .

Shamans believe in travelling the middle realm (above your head), the lower realm (underworld) and the heavens.

Korean shamanism is close geographically and also similar to shamanic customs in Siberia and Mongolia etc... some Koreans worship Genghis Khan or General Douglas MacArthur. anyone really.

The idea in the wild hunt of being 'taken' recalls spiritual possession. for the Koreans who want to become shamans this a rite of passage.

kijani
23 Sep 2011, 09:37
I'm still waiting for some actual resources. Where are you getting your information...because as I said, I have been over there. I have studied the culture, and I have never come across this information. Stop speaking about it as if you are the authority on Koreans and show us some actual proof. Citations. Even names of books. This is a debate, and I would really like to know where you are coming up with this stuff. I'm not going to take your word for it, especially since as someone who has studied Asian cultures and is reading about shamanism herself, I have NO idea where you are coming up with this information. I would like to know, for my own education, but it seems no matter how many people ask you for actual sources, you are never going to provide that information.

Unfortunately, as has been said many times, this is still a debate. No one is going to take your word for anything. Where is this information coming from?

Tylluan Penry
23 Sep 2011, 12:38
Ok this starts out with a mouthful. But I think they all connect.

Solitary attunement is possible.
Temple Of The Vampire (http://www.vampiretemple.com/) is an example of that. Which reminds one of The Wild Hunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt) . Expressed pretty well in a Therion song of the same name (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK9DpY130OA).

....And when you start looking into Korean shamanism, you realize it is a lot like the Wild Hunt. Which is... something of note to pagans.

Hence. My whole point.

Thank you. Have at me.

Any other books you recommend along this line of thinking would be great.

To be honest, cariad, I think part of the problem here is that you try to make connections that are tenuous at best. The Temple of the Vampire is not an example that proves solitary attunement is possible. You do not define solitary attunement, and this is your debate, so you should.

A song and a Wikipedia article aren't particularly good as evidence, it's true, but you are throwing them at us as though they are and getting mighty miffed when people don't agree.

You can't just come out with 'Hence. My whole point,' and expect this to lead anywhere worthwhile as a discussion. Is a discussion really what you want? Or - from the tone of some of your points - is it something else?

Crimson Horizons
23 Sep 2011, 13:58
The koreans worship the spirits of warrior generals. From an actual case history of shinbyong (initiation shaman illness),


True or not, this has little to do with the Wild Hunt.


"That night she had a dream in which many shillyong (spirits) riding horses, came into her house, waving flags and swords. [This signifies in Korean folk lore that one is being possessed].

Possession is not something the pre-christian Teutonic peoples were familiar with, to the best of my knowledge. Furthermore, there is no possession in the Wild Hunt until after the conversion to christianity. That said, if you want to deal with later versions of what the Wild Hunt became (in which demons were said to possess the dead and the unwary), I cannot stop you, merely caution you that those versions would be virtually unrecognisable to the originators of the practice.


Korean shamanism is close geographically and also similar to shamanic customs in Siberia and Mongolia etc... some Koreans worship Genghis Khan or General Douglas MacArthur. anyone really.

Okay, but again, how does this relate to the Wild Hunt?


The idea in the wild hunt of being 'taken' recalls spiritual possession. for the Koreans who want to become shamans this a rite of passage.

Ah. I can at last see what you're trying to get across. That said, your correlation is faulty. Those who were taken during the original forms of the Wild Hunt most certainly never came back, making a line between the Wild Hunt and shamanistic ascension impossible. For later versions of the Wild Hunt, those who were taken were said to have been inhabited by demons, again making links with shamanistic practices highly unlikely. The Wild Hunt was not a rite of passage, and it was certainly not something that brave warriors went out to face. The Wild Hunt was a tale of dread, most likely designed to keep people (especially children) in check, a sort of ancient boogeyman type tale told to prevent misdeeds.

AzazelEblis
23 Sep 2011, 17:47
The idea in the wild hunt of being 'taken' recalls spiritual possession. for the Koreans who want to become shamans this a rite of passage.
While that does make for some "pretty" connections in literary analysis, saying that something "recalls" spiritual possession does not effectively demonstrate likeness. In one instance, the song, a person is taken from their body, and in spiritual possession, one's body is generally occupied by something else. Nothing has been said of "where the person goes" during possession, which seems to imply that they are simply suppressed. These are very different circumstances.

This still hinges on the song as a resource, which is also a problem. And this doesn't address Reiki; what do you believe is transformed by the act of giving or recieving Reiki? I only say "giving or recieving" because you appear to have snubbed my analysis of attunement as an initiatory experience which varies from the shamanic initiation.

We quite literally want a post that is a short research paper.

Tylluan Penry
24 Sep 2011, 02:07
Methinks I recognise an old former member of this forum under a new guise...;-) Has anyone else noticed the similarities?

MaskedOne
24 Sep 2011, 19:02
Not certain. Given the past year, a return under a new name wouldn't overly surprise me but I don't want to try and link Troll to anyone I remember yet.

AzazelEblis
24 Sep 2011, 19:32
Has anyone else felt that this individual was replying to our posts very directly... just in the wrong threads? I can't tell if multiple threads is dizzying, whether this is on purpose, or whether this person is even aware of it.

kijani
25 Sep 2011, 07:47
Guys, keep the posts as on topic as possible please. We'll see if the op responds to some of the comments. If not the thread can be closed.

ChainLightning
25 Sep 2011, 18:31
Guys, keep the posts as on topic as possible please.


That's part of the problem, here, K. At least with this thread.


Contrasting the Wild Hunt with any sense of Shamanism and/or reiki is no different than 'contrasting Dracula with Southern Baptist and acupuncture.' Except, of course, for the origins of the examples. There is no connection to be made, in order to compare similar threads or contrast variances of the details. None documented, anyway.

Claims are not the same as resources or documentation. I can claim to be the sole inspiration of The Wild Hunt, for instance. However, without any resources to back it up AND with documentation that sharply contradicts the claim....

The notion becomes nonsensical. As is the thread, here.

Tylluan Penry
25 Sep 2011, 22:29
Mods - mea culpa. I did stray off topic, although I felt my observation might be pertinent in the circumstances

So, to return to the original post:


Now.

IMHO,
Korean shamanism is a lot like reiki attunement.

And when you start looking into Korean shamanism, you realize it is a lot like the Wild Hunt. Which is... something of note to pagans.

Hence. My whole point.

Thank you. Have at me.

Any other books you recommend along this line of thinking would be great.

'Korean shamanism is a lot like reiki attunement'. No. Not in my opinion.

'And when you start looking into Korean shamanism, you realize it is a lot like the Wild Hunt.' I disagree on this because there are many different Wild Hunts. Even within Wales, where it's known as Arawn and the Cwn Annwn there are variations. I think we might need a whole separate discussion on the nature, appearance and possible function of the Wild Hunts in various cultures. There isn't just a single Wild Hunt.

'Which is... something of note to pagans'. Why? I don't see it. Many pagans go through life without thinking about (let alone encountering) the Wild Hunt or Reiki for that matter. It could be very helpful if the OP explained why he felt association was important.

It's not really much of a debate when all is said and done. More an academic Twinkie Bar... ;)

thalassa
26 Sep 2011, 04:22
'And when you start looking into Korean shamanism, you realize it is a lot like the Wild Hunt.' I disagree on this because there are many different Wild Hunts. Even within Wales, where it's known as Arawn and the Cwn Annwn there are variations. I think we might need a whole separate discussion on the nature, appearance and possible function of the Wild Hunts in various cultures. There isn't just a single Wild Hunt.

Actually...I think this would make a great discussion. Personally, I find the derivatives that have popped up in pop culture to be quite interesting, but I don't know that much about all the mythic variations either,so its all good!