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Calmreflect
15 Jan 2012, 17:11
Hello,

I'm a former agnostic who now accepts Jesus. He helped me believe by sending an angel to speak to me. For those confused, I think it's very helpful to pray to him. (even if you unsure about him) It doesn't hurt to try it often. He does give people faith. People can pray to him to open their hearts to the word and to give them faith. It's important to accept Christ because his sacrifice atones for all sin (evil) a person does if you believe. He mentioned everlasting life in the New Testament. Jesus is the way to salvation. After praying for him to open their hearts to the word regularly, it's helpful to read the New Testament of the Bible. It seems different to read and true when your heart is open to it. The Father, Son(Jesus), and Holy Ghost are true! Christ died for our sins, was resurrected, and is lord in heaven now. The bible is full of history. =) The New Testament shows fulfilled prophecies of the Old Testament (including the birth of Jesus) and they were written years apart. For those willing to accept his sacrifice, it's important to pray to him and tell him that you accept it. Then it's good to get baptized and to keep praying. Seek the truth!

John 14: 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 1:10-12 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Would anyone like to share their views on Jesus, the Bible, heaven, etc?

GabrielWithoutWings
15 Jan 2012, 18:56
So is there something you wanted to discuss or... ?

MaskedOne
15 Jan 2012, 19:28
This should probably be either an intro or listed in Abrahamic traditions. Past that, welcome to the forum.

Caelia
15 Jan 2012, 19:42
Welcome to the forum, first of all. It almost sounds as if you're suggesting Pascal's Wager, though...

AzazelEblis
15 Jan 2012, 20:06
Last time I tried that, Jesus just sorta said "okay."

Last time I tried that with Bugs Bunny, he said "eh? What's up doc?" and that was the end of it.

Last time I tried that with Satan, I found pride in who I am - a wonderful, loving thing.

Then I tried that with Ganesha, he opened a few doors - not just "sending me faith," but life actually got easier for a time.

Then I tried it with Thanatos, and the nature of the world around us showed itself to me for a time.


Faith? That's good. Faith without reason or cause? I question it's merit.

Ophidia
15 Jan 2012, 20:09
Congrats on finding your own path, calmreflect.

OpenHands
15 Jan 2012, 20:24
*scratches head* Here's what I don't get- most pagans have at least a basic understanding of Christianity and many were, in fact, brought up in the religion. So...why talk to people who most likely live in a Christian-centric culture like this is some new fangled religion that we've never heard of before? If you're trying to proselytize, this is a pretty insulting way of doing it, IMO.

I have no problems with Jesus the same way that I have no problems with Prophet Muhammad or the Buddha. Fine if he's a religious figure you'd like to follow, but he's not for me. Since I doubt you'd be interested in discussing my faith (presuming you know anything about it), this is about all of the time and energy I'm going to expend discussing yours.

GabrielWithoutWings
15 Jan 2012, 20:46
Would anyone like to share their views on Jesus, the Bible, heaven, etc?

My own views on Christianity are varied, mixed, and fluid.

I exhausted the orthodox churches in my own search, though there are parts of them that I cherish greatly. I'm now exploring Gnosticism, which may or may not be Christian in focus.

I view the Bible the same way that I do any other piece of mythology. I tend to cherry-pick verses that I think have a nice turn of phrase or strike my heart as meaningful.

As for Jesus, I actually try to NOT define him, as this has been the cause of strife and has caused schism in the Church before. I consider all statements about Christ theologoumena, as I do about theology in general. It's great stuff for robust debate but when you codify it and start punishing your people because they deviate ever so slightly from The Code, then you've completely missed the point. That's actually one of the things that cemented the fact that I'll never be a mainstream orthodox Christian: when you have a bunch of Church Fathers calling each other Haters of God over the Divine Mystery (that is, something humans can only guess about), then are they really that saintly? Are the councils really inspired by the Holy Spirit? I would have to assume not.

I stick Christ in my heart of hearts the same way that Severus Alexander did in Rome. He put his statue of Christ in his sanctuary along with his statues of Abraham, Orpheus, and Apollonius of Tyana.

habbalah
15 Jan 2012, 21:17
Welcome. My view on Christianity? I tend to agree with Gandhi. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ". It's also fascinating, from a historical standpoint.

Beyond that, I was raised Christian but walked away when I realized that I was never going to be comfortable in a faith that preaches unconditional love, but has conditions. If Christianity speaks to you, I'm glad you've found your path.

Dez
15 Jan 2012, 23:00
Hello there,and welcome to our forum :)

As others have mentioned, it's generally good manners on an Internet forum to post an introduction before going elsewhere, letting the members get a better feel of who you are. You can do that here (http://www.paganforum.com/forumdisplay.php?12-Introductions).

As others have *also* mentioned, the majority of the members of this board were raised in various Christian upbringings, as most pagan beliefs have only had attempts made to revive them over the past 40-50 years. I, personally, grew up in a very staunch home, my father being the equivalent of a youth pastor in other denominations. Not only do I know my scriptures backwards and forwards, i spent several years studying Hebrew so that I could read the old testament.

I celebrate the message of Christ,but find that it does not match up with either the practices of the god of the old testament, or the actions of actual Christians,particularly those of a loud politically conservative bent. In fact,most people and denominations pick and choose quite liberally what they chose to practice in his name.

I am grateful to be making peace with that, and have a firm faith that if I am truly in error,then both my actions and the desires of my heart would be understood by him entirely, as he would be able to see the entire circumstances surrounding them in a way no mortal could.

DanieMarie
16 Jan 2012, 01:17
I sort of see Jesus as the first hippie. He had a beard and long hair, wore sandals (at least, art history depicts him as so), and he talked a lot about peace and love. I respect the guy, and see him as a decent teacher, but I believe he was just a person.

I grew up fairly openly regarding religion. We did go to church for a bit and I was baptized when I was 10 (by choice), but I went my separate way after I decided it wasn't really for me. I was more or less a pagan since I was a little kid (though I didn't have a name for my beliefs at the time) so my choice in religion isn't a backlash (as I think most aren't either), it's just how I feel :)

B. de Corbin
16 Jan 2012, 05:02
Thank you for coming here to tell us this, Calmreflect. There is a lot in Christianity which I find to be both beautiful and profound. I find the same to be true of most religions I've looked at. The problem with Christianity (IMHO) is that it promotes only itself, and rejects everything else.

That's just a bit too tight for my personal comfort.

Dufonce
16 Jan 2012, 05:46
You're absolutely right, there is a lot of history in the bible... the bible took a lot from other religions that are much older than it, didnt it.

MaskedOne
16 Jan 2012, 06:02
If you're going to start that discussion, Dufonce then toss up examples. Otherwise you're just baiting the newbie.

Corvus
16 Jan 2012, 06:40
Jesus dies so that sin is cleansed and so that good can happen. He is the son of God and also of the Virgin Mary; He is also God. Jesus was reborn. Christianity is just another worship for the Mother and Father. The Great Mother Goddess gives birth to the Father God. The God sacrifices himself so that the world can be renewed then is reborn from the eternal Mother. Jesus preached everlasting love and forgiveness. The Mother is a symbol of eternal love and compassion. The Mother and Father have had dozens of names sometimes with the the son of the Mother being portrayed as a different deity or as an incarnation of the Father. Not all that different eh?

I don't think your bible is the word of God or ever was. If a deity wrote the bible it was not Jesus. I doubt Jesus would've done very much from the old Testament. I can't believe in your Christianity but your Christ I simply call by a different name.

DanieMarie
16 Jan 2012, 06:47
The problem with Christianity (IMHO) is that it promotes only itself, and rejects everything else.

That's just a bit too tight for my personal comfort.

That's actually what caused my mom to reject Christianity.

Dufonce
16 Jan 2012, 07:38
If you're going to start that discussion, Dufonce then toss up examples. Otherwise you're just baiting the newbie.

He probably is just another troll that popped in to preach and will never return.

but two I can think of off the top of my head were that the story of adam and eve, and the flood (epic of gilgamesh) are both from sumerian arent they?

not to mention a ton of similarities between Jesus and other older deities that i dont feel like listing at the moment due to being about ready to leave for work... its easily researched though. if he is to pop up and ask then maybe tonight when i get home i can respond.

but thats my reason for discounting Christianity as the one true answer. Im one of those people that dont care what you believe, as long as you believe. But even those who dont believe in anything, I respect their thoughts and dont pressure mine on them.

Jembru
16 Jan 2012, 07:47
Welcome. My view on Christianity? I tend to agree with Gandhi. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ". It's also fascinating, from a historical standpoint.


I have never heard this quote but I love it! That's very much my feeling too. Although I DO like some Christians. Not the ones who try to convert others, or even instigate violence, but that can happen out of any faith I guess.

The ones I love, are like my boyfriend's gran. She bakes cakes for her church's coffee mornings, she makes hand made cards to sell at their summer fair. She treats everyone with kindness and hates to see people suffering. It doesn't matter to her whether you believe in her God or not, because she trusts that He will love and believe in you regardless so there's no need to try to 'save your soul'. Sadly, Christianity isn't a big thing here and I see another Church closing all the time. These sweet granny Christians are dying out and leaving empty churches in their wake. Then what will be left? The fundies? The angry forceful un-Jesus like ones? If this is the fate of Christianity, then it is a sad fate :(

Anyway, I'm glad you've found a faith that fits for you Calmreflect. Be sure to celebrate your faith from your heart and I'm sure you'll make Jesus proud.

Calmreflect
16 Jan 2012, 10:27
Thanks for all the responses and welcomes; I appreciate them and did read the replies. :)

There are some bible verses that show that Jesus is more than just a regular person.

Mark 14:61-62 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
John 8:58-59 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
John 11:25-27 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

There is life after this one. It's good to have a relationship with Jesus through prayer and to accept him!

I'm not a biblical expert. I was an agnostic who saw several signs that Jesus is the truth. :)

I do not believe the bible took from other religions but I don't know everything about the bible. I'm promoting a person seeks faith in Jesus and a relationship with him as he is the lord in heaven and heaven is everlasting life so it's important!

As for Christianity rejecting other beliefs..there is a truth about life. Not everything here is true. Christianity has a lot to support for it being true but I do not have anything against other beliefs. Usually belief systems reject others being the truth.

The bible doesn't mention a Mother Goddess; the trinity of God is: Father, Son(Jesus), and Holy Spirit.


Jesus did teach about everlasting life so I think it's important to pray to him. If you are uncertain, it's helpful to make an effort through praying to him regularly to open your heart to him and the bible.

For people who do not like Christians; we're just people..we make mistakes and sin. We aren't better than others.

For those who find people who attempt to convert others rude.. it's just to try to help people because I've had experiences and seen signs that Jesus is true so I believe Christianity is.
Take care all. God bless!

B. de Corbin
19 Jan 2012, 03:11
There is life after this one. It's good to have a relationship with Jesus through prayer and to accept him!

I'm not a biblical expert. I was an agnostic who saw several signs that Jesus is the truth. :)

I do not believe the bible took from other religions but I don't know everything about the bible. I'm promoting a person seeks faith in Jesus and a relationship with him as he is the lord in heaven and heaven is everlasting life so it's important!

As for Christianity rejecting other beliefs..there is a truth about life. Not everything here is true. Christianity has a lot to support for it being true but I do not have anything against other beliefs. Usually belief systems reject others being the truth.

The bible doesn't mention a Mother Goddess; the trinity of God is: Father, Son(Jesus), and Holy Spirit.


Jesus did teach about everlasting life so I think it's important to pray to him. If you are uncertain, it's helpful to make an effort through praying to him regularly to open your heart to him and the bible.

For people who do not like Christians; we're just people..we make mistakes and sin. We aren't better than others.

For those who find people who attempt to convert others rude.. it's just to try to help people because I've had experiences and seen signs that Jesus is true so I believe Christianity is.
Take care all. God bless!

Well, many people here (but not me personally) believe in an afterlife, although they have other deities who are concerned. It doesn't have to be Jesus.

Christianity actually did pick up and borrow from other religions. I don't believe that many scholars dispute that any more. Everything comes from something, Christianity did as well.

The Bible does not mention a mother goddess, true. But what does that prove? Only that the Bible doesn't mention one. Many, many other religions do mention, and look up to, a mother goddess. What does that prove? Only that there are mother goddesses in other religions.

That you find it comforting to pray to Jesus is good. That others find comfort praying in other ways is also good. What is bad is when a person is obliged to worship in a way that does not work for him or her. This is why it is good to have an assortment of religions.

I do regret that there are some pagans who have a chip on their shoulder about Christisnity, just as I regret that there are some Christians who have a chip on their shoulder about pagans. Most of us don't, though - we have friends and family and coworkers who are Christian. It's just that we find our way in life leading us to something other than Christianity.

I appreciate your desire to tell us something important to you, and I thank you for it. May the powers be kind to you.

thalassa
19 Jan 2012, 06:20
For those who find people who attempt to convert others rude.. it's just to try to help people because I've had experiences and seen signs that Jesus is true so I believe Christianity is.


What is rude is coming to someone else's home, without a proper introduction or any bother of getting to know anyone, and assuming that you know what is better for them. We've had Christian members of this forum, we also have Jewish and Muslim members of this forum, and they've managed to participate without proselytizing. I don't come to your church and tell the congregation that I think your belief in Jesus is trite, historically inaccurate and ignorant and that I've had experiences and seen signs that Jesus is *not* "true" or that the Bible is a semi-historical work of mythology no better or worse than The Illiad...I don't think its too much to expect the same consideration (and there are actually forums for that sort of behavior)

I'm happy that you, whomever you are, have found a path that brings you peace and meaning. If you actually want to participate in this forum (which is what we are concerned about here, rather than what religion you follow, as this sort of drive-by-proselytization-posting tends to be disruptive), we have an "Ask a Christian" thread--feel free to post an introduction, and answer people's questions, or start a topic on the Bible or something. But have the freaking decency and intelligence to realize that we aren't Christian, and that most of us were at one time or another in our lives, Christian...and more that likely aren't interested in becoming Christian again. And if by some chance of statistics one of us were, we are surrounded by thousands of denominations IRL and online, and that we are savvy enough to find them ourselves.

I'm going to give you a tip on "witnessing", from someone that rejected the claims of most Christianities years ago--the best way to be a good Christian (at least in a way that makes you seem decent to the people you want to convert) is to be a good person. Don't proclaim your faith, act your faith...and actually make it the parts of your faith that JESUS is attributed to have actually said in the Bible, and not the other crap that he was supposed to have overcome. It will make you seem a whole lot less obnoxious to the people that are firm in their faith, and make you seem more legit to the people that aren't certain where they belong.

Gardenia
19 Jan 2012, 07:09
For those who find people who attempt to convert others rude.. it's just to try to help people because I've had experiences and seen signs that Jesus is true so I believe Christianity is.

This is, at least, the second pagan forum you've signed up on to try and find converts. You already know why your particular approach is rude and ineffective. Did you really expect any truly different results here?

Ophidia
19 Jan 2012, 07:53
For those who find people who attempt to convert others rude.. it's just to try to help people because I've had experiences and seen signs that Jesus is true so I believe Christianity is.
Take care all. God bless!

Something that I have learned over the past couple of years is that it is always best to ask someone if they want help before offering it unsolicited. Sometimes people want to find their own way of doing things. It's great that your faith works for you, but most of us here don't feel that our faiths or beliefs or lack thereof are broken in any way, shape or form. Most of us will not take kindly to any attempts to 'help' us. Unless we ask for it. Often times, unsolicited assistance is met with hostility and opens you up for many misunderstandings along the way.

And then, it's always better to share your own experiences with similar problems instead of throwing around quotes or creating link-storms. That is general forum/debate etiquette, and isn't just dedicated to religious discussions. If you want to testify or spread your message around, then do so without trying to convert people to your way of thinking and worship. Everyone likes to hear good news, but not everyone wants a subscription.

shadow1982
19 Jan 2012, 12:22
It's good to have a relationship with Jesus through prayer and to accept him!


I think this should read 'It's good for me to have a relationship with Jesus...' I am sincerely happy for you that you have found a faith that you find fulfilling but the fact is so have the majority of the people on this board and it is not Christianity. Unlike many others who have responded, I have never been involved in Christianity and have no desire to. I have studied it, I have spoken at length with people about it but I know in my heart (sorry for the cheese) that it is not for me.

I respect your right to believe how you will, all I ask is that you extend me, and others, the same courtesy.

OpenHands
19 Jan 2012, 12:22
What is rude is coming to someone else's home, without a proper introduction or any bother of getting to know anyone, and assuming that you know what is better for them.


Cutting your quote short for brevity, but THANK YOU for expressing these sentiments more diplomatically than I have the patience to do these days.

Corvus
19 Jan 2012, 12:57
Agreed with all of the above.

You said the bible doesn't mention a Mother Goddess but only the Father, Son and Holy spirit. While this is true there are a few things to consider the first of which the bible does mention the Virgin Mary and that many many people think that the holy spirit is a female force rather than a masculine one. You really should do more research on the religion you try to push on people, preferably looking at unbiased sources since you admit there's a lot about Christianity you don't know.

I would like you to either stop be bigoted, rude, missionary and stop with the self righteous act or get the hell out. You shouldn't think of us as poor, uneducated heathens when it would seem we know more about your religion than you do. Having a different faith doesn't make us wrong.

Caelia
19 Jan 2012, 13:07
And now I get to play...


Thanks for all the responses and welcomes; I appreciate them and did read the replies. :)

There are some bible verses that show that Jesus is more than just a regular person.

Mark 14:61-62 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
John 8:58-59 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
John 11:25-27 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
Ah, ye olde non sequitur. This really has nothing to do with us not being receptive to proselytizing. In fact, it kinda enforces that's what I suspect you're doing. PRO TIP: If you're gonna proselytize it's better to use passive conversion.



There is life after this one. It's good to have a relationship with Jesus through prayer and to accept him!
No one's questioning the existence of an afterlife, just why you came to proselytize.



I'm not a biblical expert. I was an agnostic who saw several signs that Jesus is the truth. :)
We're happy you found a faith that has brought you peace. Like others on this forum, I found mine. I was my most suicidal as a Christian. With my Kemetic faith I found ways to deal with it myself rather than give it to some deity. All that did was set me up for feeling abandoned. With Ma'at I found the peace I need to face my problems. I found my faith. However, you don't see me going to a Christian forum proclaiming how Osiris died for their crops.



I do not believe the bible took from other religions but I don't know everything about the bible. I'm promoting a person seeks faith in Jesus and a relationship with him as he is the lord in heaven and heaven is everlasting life so it's important!
It's been accepted by scholars that Psalms is a rip-off of The Teachings of Amenenope. You can disbelieve all you want, but there are passages that weren't found anywhere else but that piece of Egyptian wisdom literature. Just saying.



As for Christianity rejecting other beliefs..there is a truth about life. Not everything here is true. Christianity has a lot to support for it being true but I do not have anything against other beliefs. Usually belief systems reject others being the truth.

No, Christianity has lots of support because of multiple reasons. This includes, but not limited to: people converting for survival, social acceptance, a more democratic approach to worship, and a practice more simplified.



The bible doesn't mention a Mother Goddess; the trinity of God is: Father, Son(Jesus), and Holy Spirit.
That's because those parts weren't cannonized in the Council of Trent. God very early on had a wife who was worshipped. Scholars acknowledge it, but also acknowledge she is no longer worshipped.



Jesus did teach about everlasting life so I think it's important to pray to him. If you are uncertain, it's helpful to make an effort through praying to him regularly to open your heart to him and the bible.

Jesus taught also "he who has an ear, let him hear" and "if they do no receive you, shake the dust off your sandals".



For people who do not like Christians; we're just people..we make mistakes and sin. We aren't better than others.
Again, a distraction from the issue. The issue isn't about receptiveness to Christians, but the audacity to come here to save us from ourselves.



For those who find people who attempt to convert others rude.. it's just to try to help people because I've had experiences and seen signs that Jesus is true so I believe Christianity is.
Take care all. God bless!
That isn't helping. All you've done is come in here claiming to be some great hope (you know, impersonating a god) when you should really work on finding your peace with your faith.


And with that...senebty! Dua Djehuty.

Medusa
19 Jan 2012, 14:17
I don't think this person is a troll. I think this person is sincere. I think all of you are over reacting...alot. You get bored. One new member comes in that's not a Pagan and you want to get your 3 nails out.

shadow1982
19 Jan 2012, 14:30
I don't think this person is a troll. I think this person is sincere. I think all of you are over reacting...alot. You get bored. One new member comes in that's not a Pagan and you want to get your 3 nails out.

I don't think this person is a troll either and agree that they are sincere. Doesn't change the fact that I am not interested in being proselytized to though. I would, however, be more than happy to have a conversation with them about Christianity if they were interested.

Medusa
19 Jan 2012, 14:32
I don't think this person is a troll either and agree that they are sincere. Doesn't change the fact that I am not interested in being proselytized to though. I would, however, be more than happy to have a conversation with them about Christianity if they were interested.

I don't go into the Pagan sections about ceremonies and rituals etc. Because it's not my thing. I hardly browse there. And when I do I take it with a grain of salt because I think most of it is bunk. I suggest that frame of mind when going to the Abrahamic Section as well. Know what I mean?

shadow1982
19 Jan 2012, 14:36
I don't go into the Pagan sections about ceremonies and rituals etc. Because it's not my thing. I hardly browse there. And when I do I take it with a grain of salt because I think most of it is bunk. I suggest that frame of mind when going to the Abrahamic Section as well. Know what I mean?

That's a fair point. I tend to just go through 'what's new' when I log in so I don't always notice what section I am in... although the title of the thread probably should've been my first clue. :-)

As a general rule I do like this section though, the 'Ask a' threads in all the sections are generally of interest to me as I enjoy learning about other religions.

Yazichestvo
19 Jan 2012, 14:42
Hello,

I'm a former agnostic who now accepts Jesus. He helped me believe by sending an angel to speak to me. For those confused, I think it's very helpful to pray to him. (even if you unsure about him) It doesn't hurt to try it often. He does give people faith. People can pray to him to open their hearts to the word and to give them faith. It's important to accept Christ because his sacrifice atones for all sin (evil) a person does if you believe. He mentioned everlasting life in the New Testament. Jesus is the way to salvation. After praying for him to open their hearts to the word regularly, it's helpful to read the New Testament of the Bible. It seems different to read and true when your heart is open to it. The Father, Son(Jesus), and Holy Ghost are true! Christ died for our sins, was resurrected, and is lord in heaven now. The bible is full of history. =)

I have no problem with the idea of a Christian deity. As a polytheist, it's not for me to say that this God or that God doesn't exist, because there could be millions of them out there that I don't know anything about. However, I have a number of reasons for being suspicious of the Gospels themselves, to the point where I'm not even sure that Christ and the Abrahamic God are the same deity. After all, they don't seem to have much in common.



The New Testament shows fulfilled prophecies of the Old Testament (including the birth of Jesus) and they were written years apart.

I have major issues with the supposed prophecies foretelling Jesus. Many of the passages Christians call "messianic prophecies" originally had a completely different interpretation, often one that makes more sense in the context of that part of the scripture. A famous example is the passage in Isaiah talking about the "almah" who will give birth. This passage makes the most sense if you interpret as foretelling the fall of King Ahaz, (which Jews did for centuries) but Christians have taken it to refer to an event occurring seven hundred years later!

Likewise, a lot of the actual messianic prophecies, like the restoration of the temple, were never literally fulfilled by Christ. That's not even getting into the idea of a monotheistic God having a son. In general, the Jewish people have a lot of very legitimate and compelling arguments for rejecting Christ as their messiah, and it's unfortunate, I think, that most Christians are totally unaware of them. This is one of the big reasons that pagans who knew nothing about the Old Testament converted much more readily than the Jews who did; the latter recognized a huge difference between their scripture and the Gospels.

Medusa
19 Jan 2012, 14:43
That's a fair point. I tend to just go through 'what's new' when I log in so I don't always notice what section I am in... although the title of the thread probably should've been my first clue. :-)

As a general rule I do like this section though, the 'Ask a' threads in all the sections are generally of interest to me as I enjoy learning about other religions.

Oh yeah I like this section too. I know it's always something new. I check the name of the section because it keeps me from saying things. I saw this thread when it first came on. I saw the section. I clicked and read and realized it's some noob being all I love Jesus in a Abrahamic thread. I was like next. I like to go to ADULTS and RANTS right away.:p

kijani
19 Jan 2012, 14:47
I used to be Christian. I walked away when a lot of my questions about family members of other faiths were answered with "well, they're wrong", but I started noticing something off when I lived next door to a gay couple when I was seven. They were wonderful men and what I would consider to be true Christians, but because they were gay they were told that they were not welcome at church. God teaches that people should be forgiving and loving and accepting of others, and I think that if he or Jesus or whichever incarnation of him your particular religion follows were here today, he would be utterly appalled at the way that people who call themselves Christian treat others and the things they have done. I've found something that fits me, doesn't denounce my sexual preference, and gives me peace. That's all I need, although I do welcome you to the board and hope you stick around and chat with everyone.

thalassa
19 Jan 2012, 15:11
I don't think this person is a troll. I think this person is sincere. I think all of you are over reacting...alot. You get bored. One new member comes in that's not a Pagan and you want to get your 3 nails out.

According to Gardenia (at least as I read her post), this specific person tried this on another forum recently...

Caelia
19 Jan 2012, 15:13
According to Gardenia (at least as I read her post), this specific person tried this on another forum recently...
I had interpreted her post differently. I read it as she extrapolated from the OP's post this was not the first Pagan forum where he tried this type of thing and was also ill received.

Valhalla
19 Jan 2012, 15:16
It seems different to read and true when your heart is open to it.

http://www.skeptically.org/bible/id6.html


The bible is full of history. =) The New Testament shows fulfilled prophecies of the Old Testament (including the birth of Jesus) and they were written years apart.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgjyiEOwGhU


John 14: 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence06.html


Hell - The category with the highest percentage seeing hell were those in the Christian (38%) category. The lowest percentage were those in the non-religious (0%) category. (bold mine)


John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

https://www.heavensfamily.org/iwh/north-korea

http://www.bosnewslife.com/18209-somalias-starving-christians-struggle-after-beheading

http://www.worthynews.com/8490-news-alert-niger-christians-starving-group-says


John 1:10-12 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)


Would anyone like to share their views on Jesus, the Bible, heaven, etc?

Yeah. God, if he exists at all, is a malevolent, hateful, vile being who, if he were a real person, would be immediately diagnosed with severe mental illness and committed to a psychiatric institution for the protection of himself and others. To worship such a despicable entity is a shameful thing; to advance the goals of this monster is a crime against humanity. To bow down and supplicate yourself before this bloodthirsty beast is the ultimate act of surrender of self-control and personal freedom. The twisted, half-formed thoughtform called God is nothing but an evil spiritual terrorist. I got out of that vicious cult three years ago, and will never, ever go back. I will do everything in my power to destroy the beast yahweh and stop him from spreading his murderous evil to the minds of the people of Earth, especially young children, and, most importantly, I will sooner die by my own bullet than I will ever bow down to that disgusting, worthless psychopath in the sky or his back-stabbing conman of a son. HAIL WOTAN!!

http://mrsthordarson.edublogs.org/files/2010/10/Odin.jpg

-Valhalla

Medusa
19 Jan 2012, 15:20
According to Gardenia (at least as I read her post), this specific person tried this on another forum recently...

I've belong to quite a few various religious forums. Hell I've seen some of you posting on other sites as well. Doesn't mean you are a troll. Know what I mean? I've posted the same intro personally on three different Satanist sites. Simply because it said everything I needed it to say. They posted in the section that's about their God. I don't see what the big deal is. They haven't sent us to a roasty Hell.

Juniper
19 Jan 2012, 15:51
I've belong to quite a few various religious forums. Hell I've seen some of you posting on other sites as well. Doesn't mean you are a troll. Know what I mean? I've posted the same intro personally on three different Satanist sites. Simply because it said everything I needed it to say. They posted in the section that's about their God. I don't see what the big deal is. They haven't sent us to a roasty Hell.
Actually... I moved the topic into this section.

Gardenia
19 Jan 2012, 15:55
I had interpreted her post differently. I read it as she extrapolated from the OP's post this was not the first Pagan forum where he tried this type of thing and was also ill received.

No, this person joined another forum I belong to a few months back. While not an exact copy and paste, much like here their only real intent seemed to be to preach rather than actually discuss anything. If that changes this time around, great, but it doesn't seem that way yet...

Caelia
19 Jan 2012, 15:58
No, this person joined another forum I belong to a few months back. While not an exact copy and paste, much like here their only real intent seemed to be to preach rather than actually discuss anything. If that changes this time around, great, but it doesn't seem that way yet...
Ah, I see I was mistaken.

kijani
19 Jan 2012, 16:37
I would like to see the OP respond more. They asked a question and several of us have answered. I would very much like to see a reply that doesn't quote bible verse and get to speak to the person underneath all of that. That, I believe, is why posting an introduction thread is a valuable thing to do when someone is new to the board...

GabrielWithoutWings
19 Jan 2012, 18:59
To worship such a despicable entity is a shameful thing; to advance the goals of this monster is a crime against humanity. To bow down and supplicate yourself before this bloodthirsty beast is the ultimate act of surrender of self-control and personal freedom.

I find it ironic that someone who worships Wotan would call the Abrahamic god a 'bloodthirsty beast.'


The twisted, half-formed thoughtform called God is nothing but an evil spiritual terrorist. I got out of that vicious cult three years ago, and will never, ever go back. I will do everything in my power to destroy the beast yahweh and stop him from spreading his murderous evil to the minds of the people of Earth, especially young children, and, most importantly, I will sooner die by my own bullet than I will ever bow down to that disgusting, worthless psychopath in the sky or his back-stabbing conman of a son. HAIL WOTAN!!

While I'm glad that you've found a worldview and belief system that jives with you, I think your broad generalizations are unfair. I'm not trying to preemptively know anything about you, but your rant n' vow there at the end sounds like something a rebellious 14 year old would say.

Medusa
19 Jan 2012, 19:07
I would like to see the OP respond more. They asked a question and several of us have answered. I would very much like to see a reply that doesn't quote bible verse and get to speak to the person underneath all of that. That, I believe, is why posting an introduction thread is a valuable thing to do when someone is new to the board...

Me too. But if I were this person and I read the replies thus far..I'd probably not reply.


Gabe, I missed Vlhalla's reply. But thank you for bringing it to my attention. It's a pot. And it's naming that kettle. Oh man..this thread is fun!

AzazelEblis
19 Jan 2012, 19:36
Is it just me, or do Neophytes in any given religion do the most proselytizing?

Valhalla
19 Jan 2012, 19:53
I find it ironic that someone who worships Wotan would call the Abrahamic god a 'bloodthirsty beast.'

Wotan doesn't commit mass murder because he's an insecure maniac and is upset that someone doesn't like him.



While I'm glad that you've found a worldview and belief system that jives with you, I think your broad generalizations are unfair. I'm not trying to preemptively know anything about you, but your rant n' vow there at the end sounds like something a rebellious 14 year old would say.

I was giving my honest views on the OP's religion. If he's going to proselytize his faith to me, then I'm going to come right back at him with exactly what I think of his. It is not important to me if you like the way I worded my reply, but I would appreciate it if you would not make uninformed inferences about my motives for doing so.

-Valhalla

Medusa
19 Jan 2012, 20:05
Wotan doesn't commit mass murder because he's an insecure maniac and is upset that someone doesn't like him.




I was giving my honest views on the OP's religion. If he's going to proselytize his faith to me, then I'm going to come right back at him with exactly what I think of his. It is not important to me if you like the way I worded my reply, but I would appreciate it if you would not make uninformed inferences about my motives for doing so.

-Valhalla
The poster is posting in the section that is discussing his belief system. Calm down kid.

thalassa
19 Jan 2012, 20:05
I was giving my honest views on the OP's religion. If he's going to proselytize his faith to me, then I'm going to come right back at him with exactly what I think of his. It is not important to me if you like the way I worded my reply, but I would appreciate it if you would not make uninformed inferences about my motives for doing so.

-Valhalla

His response *was* far kinder than my red-lettered mod response was going to be.

If you don't want people to make "uninformed inferences about your motives", don't make posts that make you look like a hypocrite. Either that, or accept that your poorly-worded response didn't exactly show maturity.

Valhalla
19 Jan 2012, 20:11
Then I will get out of this thread, because I thought it was intended for the open and frank discussion of Christianity. Obviously my particular opinions are too forceful for local taste. Good day.

-Valhalla

Medusa
19 Jan 2012, 20:19
Then I will get out of this thread, because I thought it was intended for the open and frank discussion of Christianity. Obviously my particular opinions are too forceful for local taste. Good day.

-Valhalla

When you call someone's god a murderer....open goes out the door. Don't be silly.

GabrielWithoutWings
19 Jan 2012, 21:21
When you call someone's god a murderer....open goes out the door. Don't be silly.

Not even that.

When you call someone's god a murderer when you've switched to the worship of a northern European deity who called those who died bringing battle to their enemies to occupy the greatest Hall in Valhalla, wherein they do nothing but revel and feast and sing songs of glorious combat until the Jotun come calling, well... /shrug

The Old Testament god, as described, could definitely be an unholy terror to his enemies. Thing is, he isn't any better or worse than Odhinn, Zeus, Sekhmet, Kali, etc. If you read the Old Testament the same way you read Norse, Greek, etc, myths, then he barely stands out at all.

Medusa
19 Jan 2012, 21:40
Not even that.

When you call someone's god a murderer when you've switched to the worship of a northern European deity who called those who died bringing battle to their enemies to occupy the greatest Hall in Valhalla, wherein they do nothing but revel and feast and sing songs of glorious combat until the Jotun come calling, well... /shrug

The Old Testament god, as described, could definitely be an unholy terror to his enemies. Thing is, he isn't any better or worse than Odhinn, Zeus, Sekhmet, Kali, etc. If you read the Old Testament the same way you read Norse, Greek, etc, myths, then he barely stands out at all.
Yeah. I was thinking if this dude was all into Gandhi, I might be inclined to get him. But Odin. Aint exactly the peace loving hippy. But one troll remark per day for me...:rolleyes:

GabrielWithoutWings
19 Jan 2012, 21:56
I do not believe the bible took from other religions but I don't know everything about the bible. I'm promoting a person seeks faith in Jesus and a relationship with him as he is the lord in heaven and heaven is everlasting life so it's important!

The Bible was most certainly influenced by other religions. Orthodox Christianity itself is a syncretic religion combining Hebraic monotheism, Mediterranean dying-and-rising Mystery religion, Persian dualism along with specific Zoroastrian concepts (the idea of a Last Judgment, a Savior/Saoshyant who comes at the end times, etc).


The bible doesn't mention a Mother Goddess; the trinity of God is: Father, Son(Jesus), and Holy Spirit.

I would recommend you read extra-biblical literature, especially those of the Nag Hammadi library. The Holy Spirit is seen as female. Personified Wisdom (seen in the Old Testament) is an Aeon known as Sophia. There is a composite male-female Aeon called the Barbelo. Also, the Old Testament god is thought to have been wed to a Mother Goddess, Asherah. Asherah, Lady of the Waves, who is seen as an equivalent to Ishtar, Ashtoreth, Isis, etc. What's interesting is that Mary, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven in orthodox Christianity, is sometimes translated as 'Sea' or 'Bitter Sea'.

Clive
20 Jan 2012, 08:13
Would anyone like to share their views on Jesus, the Bible, heaven, etc?

Like most others, I want to say thank you for your concern and kudos on being granted a call to a path that enlightens you.

To answer the above-quoted question I'd like to share something I wrote in my journal, and for the record, I have no personal beef with Christians themselves:

Christians say that to achieve salvation one must accept Christ. But what of those thousands of years before Christ? The hundreds of thousands of years in which humans and their ancestors existed before Yahweh was established and the Torah written? All of those people are in hell forever?

They might reason that God's creations rebelled against him, so he had to try different tactics, like killing with fires and floods, down to manifesting himself on Earth as Christ. That doesn't seem like the work of a perfect, all-powerful being to me.

Nature itself does, for lack of a better verb, "try" different thigns, all the time - it changes, adapts, and evolves. To assume that it's all for the good of humanity suggests that "God/Nature" cares about us at all. That's very vain.

Forgive the cruddy language and any factual errors...I wrote that passage in a hurry.

Dez
20 Jan 2012, 09:18
The Bible was most certainly influenced by other religions. Orthodox Christianity itself is a syncretic religion combining Hebraic monotheism, Mediterranean dying-and-rising Mystery religion, Persian dualism along with specific Zoroastrian concepts (the idea of a Last Judgment, a Savior/Saoshyant who comes at the end times, etc).



I would recommend you read extra-biblical literature, especially those of the Nag Hammadi library. The Holy Spirit is seen as female. Personified Wisdom (seen in the Old Testament) is an Aeon known as Sophia. There is a composite male-female Aeon called the Barbelo. Also, the Old Testament god is thought to have been wed to a Mother Goddess, Asherah. Asherah, Lady of the Waves, who is seen as an equivalent to Ishtar, Ashtoreth, Isis, etc. What's interesting is that Mary, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven in orthodox Christianity, is sometimes translated as 'Sea' or 'Bitter Sea'.

This.

Since Gabriel got on here, I've started to read through those, which are available for free online. It's been a very breath-taking reminder that, while most Christian sects tend to come with a mindset that they "do Christianity right", there have been a plethora of interpretations of His message over the past 2000 years. Very interesting, beautiful stuff.

And Valhalla, if you read this. I get where you're coming from, I really do. Given my personal background, things that have been said and done to me in the name of God the Father, there are days when I am still so angry about it I can't stand it.

Given the nature of this forum, though, I don't post on those days. This forum welcomes everyone, and I mean everyone. I was a practicing Latter-Day Saint for years as a member here, and was treated with the utmost respect, even when I disagreed with others, or fought about Christian "hot button" issues, like evolution (B.de Corbin probably remembers that one). I prefer to extend the same courtesy to others. If you feel the need to rant, the best place to do so would be to start a thread specifically in Rants and Decline of Humanity. Word it from your perspective (I.E., I dislike this because, I am angered by this sort of thing because) and you should have little trouble.

anunitu
20 Jan 2012, 09:33
Having been brought up Christian,and that mostly by my "Crazy" religious Mother. I quit that religion at 13,and
promply had the cops called for not doing as my Mother said. I was labeled a JD,and forced to attend a group therapy thing with several other "JD's" It was in this environment I first smoked a cig,learned how to hotwire a car,and I was glad it only lasted no more than a year. I went into the Navy right after turning 18,and never looked back. The only positive thing I took from being forced to be in a christian environment was I have a pretty good historical knowledge of that religion. I don't hate them,but I have very little respect for most of them. When I had to correct them when they misquoted passages from their own book,I felt kinda sad for them. I was forced to read and be able to quote from memory almost all of the Bible as a kid.

thalassa
20 Jan 2012, 11:15
The real problem here seems to be that people (Christian and non) have an overwhelminglyhuge habit of treating the Christian religions as if they are one faith...the aren't. And because so many former. Pagans have a negative experience withwhat are usually the mos restrictive Christianities, its no surprise that people get pissy...but its not an acceptable excuse for doing so. Really, its no better (and no different) than the behaviors that most of us find objectionable in the first place.

Maybe its time to deposit my interfaith etiquette guidelines (when I'm on a computer and not my kindle)...wow, spell check killed replete... r e p o s t...lol

Dez
20 Jan 2012, 11:29
I think it's perfect timing for those, Thal.

Valhalla
21 Jan 2012, 09:23
I know I said I am staying out of this thread, and I plan to continue to do so, but I do want to say that when I wrote that paragraph at the end of my post, I took care to word it against Christianity and not against the OP. I'm not interested in anyone thinking better of the post knowing that, I just want everyone and especially the OP to know that I'm not meaning to attack her, just the religion in question here. And, I do suppose I could have worded it more lightly. In any case, that's all.

-Valhalla

Dez
21 Jan 2012, 10:25
Thanks for that, Valhalla. I hope the OP reads it.