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jcaternolo
13 Apr 2014, 06:32
I read a little about Shinto, and I'm not sure, but I don't think it would mix too well with polytheism. I believe there are separate deities, possibly from different planes, while Shinto seems to teach that all divinity comes from nature. It's a very beautiful and spiritual religion, but I'm not sure if it's for me.

Witcher
13 Apr 2014, 06:57
Shinto has been combined with seemingly disparate traditions before, particularly Buddhism. In East Asia, the lines between religions often blur. The cognitive dissonance does not seem to bother practitioners as much as it does here in the West. Buddhism seems, at its core teachings, antithetical to some of the concepts in Confucianism, Shinto, Tibetan shamanism, and many other traditions, but the systems have mingled and influenced each other for centuries.

Also, Shinto is a deeply ethnic religion. I mean, in a way all religions are tied up sociologically with a people, but some seem seem to have a more universalist approach or an easier time being adopted by others outside the original culture. Missionary religions like Christianity and Buddhism were much easier to adopt to other cultures whereas Shinto, for example, is extraordinarily rare outside of the Japanese. That might present a challenge but in the end, I do not see how it would be difficult to approach Shinto along with your current beliefs.

Satu
13 Apr 2014, 08:28
I read a little about Shinto, and I'm not sure, but I don't think it would mix too well with polytheism. I believe there are separate deities, possibly from different planes, while Shinto seems to teach that all divinity comes from nature. It's a very beautiful and spiritual religion, but I'm not sure if it's for me.

With Shinto, it's about a single divinity that manifests in numerous ways, very similar to some forms of Hinduism (and in some forms of Kemeticism). It can be approached from a polytheistic perspective.

My recommendation would be to give it a shot. Adopt Shinto as your official religion for 6 - 12 months to see how you like it. Do your best to live how a "good" Shintoist should live, but don't beat yourself up if you're not perfect about it. Polytheism is less about doing and believing perfectly, and more about doing your absolute best.

Good luck!

jcaternolo
13 Apr 2014, 09:20
With Shinto, it's about a single divinity that manifests in numerous ways, very similar to some forms of Hinduism (and in some forms of Kemeticism). It can be approached from a polytheistic perspective.

My recommendation would be to give it a shot. Adopt Shinto as your official religion for 6 - 12 months to see how you like it. Do your best to live how a "good" Shintoist should live, but don't beat yourself up if you're not perfect about it. Polytheism is less about doing and believing perfectly, and more about doing your absolute best.

Good luck!
Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to do something entirely different anyways, but thanks all the same. I'm basically going to use chaos magick to help create an egregore, then give that egregore godhood. I believe that this is how all deities came to be (except they were developed without the use of chaos magick, they were made through faith and prayer alone, they just took longer).

ChainLightning
13 Apr 2014, 19:17
Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to do something entirely different anyways, but thanks all the same. I'm basically going to use chaos magick to help create an egregore, then give that egregore godhood. I believe that this is how all deities came to be (except they were developed without the use of chaos magick, they were made through faith and prayer alone, they just took longer).


In another thread, you said you *didn't* think deities came to be, in this manner.

Sounds to me like you're fishing. Mixed pantheons, dogmas, including the above Shinto inquiry and, now, a Chaos magician...

We can't tell you what to believe. We can't tell you what religion to belong to. What we CAN do is, maybe, help with ideas and places to do your research. After all, this is a community not a library.




One more thing, I'd like to mention, is our S.A.F.E. Zone (http://www.paganforum.com/forumdisplay.php?59-S-A-F-E-Zone). Where judgement is far more reserved.

I say this because, if I may be serious for a moment, the very first time I heard the word tulpa, it was regarding make believe - imaginary friends - in children's games. You can imagine my confusion, then, that "tulpa" was being used in a spiritual, or even religious context. I didn't know what the hell you were talking about - as in "okay, wtf is a tulpa?" I'm having the same issue, now, with egregor and memes.

These two aspects (among other things) can, and most likely will, be addressed by some of our more critical thinkers, on-site. So, I suggest, maybe, you should look over that DMZ (http://www.paganforum.com/forumdisplay.php?59-S-A-F-E-Zone), for a little bit of suspension-in-criticism.

jcaternolo
13 Apr 2014, 19:50
In another thread, you said you *didn't* think deities came to be, in this manner.

Sounds to me like you're fishing. Mixed pantheons, dogmas, including the above Shinto inquiry and, now, a Chaos magician...

We can't tell you what to believe. We can't tell you what religion to belong to. What we CAN do is, maybe, help with ideas and places to do your research. After all, this is a community not a library.




One more thing, I'd like to mention, is our S.A.F.E. Zone (http://www.paganforum.com/forumdisplay.php?59-S-A-F-E-Zone). Where judgement is far more reserved.

I say this because, if I may be serious for a moment, the very first time I heard the word tulpa, it was regarding make believe - imaginary friends - in children's games. You can imagine my confusion, then, that "tulpa" was being used in a spiritual, or even religious context. I didn't know what the hell you were talking about - as in "okay, wtf is a tulpa?" I'm having the same issue, now, with egregor and memes.

These two aspects (among other things) can, and most likely will, be addressed by some of our more critical thinkers, on-site. So, I suggest, maybe, you should look over that DMZ (http://www.paganforum.com/forumdisplay.php?59-S-A-F-E-Zone), for a little bit of suspension-in-criticism.
Tulpas are a very real, very spiritual phenomenon. Possibly even psychic (there are different theories, most of them involving metaphysics I think). The reason I mentioned cartoon characters is because I created a tulpa based off a cartoon character (mostly for aesthetic purposes, and I realize that my tulpa might turn out different from planned). Egregores are like tulpas, but other people can see them, but requires group belief. And if an egregore either gets enough worship/praise, gets served often enough, or becomes popular enough, it can graduate to a god form. Which requires prayer to help people, but can work with multiple people.

Also, my belief about deities isn't really set in stone. I'm not sure how they came to be. I think that some used to be egregores, but not ruling out the possibility that some were naturally born deities as well. There's another theory I'm considering, that there are no distinct deities, but the universe itself is divine. Which explains why people of different faiths get prayers answered. Also, chaosites and tulpamancers use similar terminology, although they use some of it differently. Chaosites don't have a word for normal tulpas, who are sentient beings made of thoughts and psychic energy, and are linked specifically to the person who made them, and have no drawbacks. Tulpamancers believe in servitors, although their version is a non sentient tulpa that functions like a robot to perform specific tasks. Chaosites believe in servitors, but their version can be given a specific amount of intelligence. However, there's a possibility of them turning on their creators, either due to jealousy, no longer having a purpose, etc.

ChainLightning
13 Apr 2014, 20:05
Tulpas are a very real, very spiritual phenomenon. Possibly even psychic (there are different theories, most of them involving metaphysics I think). The reason I mentioned cartoon characters is because I created a tulpa based off a cartoon character (mostly for aesthetic purposes, and I realize that my tulpa might turn out different from planned). Egregores are like tulpas, but other people can see them, but requires group belief. And if an egregore either gets enough worship/praise, gets served often enough, or becomes popular enough, it can graduate to a god form. Which requires prayer to help people, but can work with multiple people.

Also, my belief about deities isn't really set in stone. I'm not sure how they came to be. I think that some used to be egregores, but not ruling out the possibility that some were naturally born deities as well. There's another theory I'm considering, that there are no distinct deities, but the universe itself is divine. Which explains why people of different faiths get prayers answered. Also, chaosites and tulpamancers use similar terminology, although they use some of it differently. Chaosites don't have a word for normal tulpas, who are sentient beings made of thoughts and psychic energy, and are linked specifically to the person who made them, and have no drawbacks. Tulpamancers believe in servitors, although their version is a non sentient tulpa that functions like a robot to perform specific tasks. Chaosites believe in servitors, but their version can be given a specific amount of intelligence. However, there's a possibility of them turning on their creators, either due to jealousy, no longer having a purpose, etc.



Where are you getting all this from? Tulpamancers? Chaosites? The E on egregor? Have you got an extensive library? Can you give me some authors' names, to look this shit up? I've been around the Pagan and Neo-Pagan community for decades, now, and you're introducing all sorts of weird shit I've never heard of. I need sources. Lots and lots of sources.

Satu
14 Apr 2014, 06:17
For anyone else confused as ChainLightning:

For tulpas, start here: http://www.tulpa.info/, http://thelucidtulpamancer.tumblr.com/post/56422924559/a-collection-of-tips-and-tricks-about-tulpas-and, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa, and http://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas.

For egregores: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore, http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/sseg.php (multiple links available on this site, and http://www.kheperu.org/spirits/spirits6.html.

Some stuff on chaos magic (with practitioners sometimes called "chaosites", looks like): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic, http://www.barbelith.com/cgi-bin/articles/00000004.shtml.

My impression (and I hope OP will correct me if I'm wrong) is that jcaternolo wants to create thoughtforms for whatever reasons, including, perhaps, a deity. The latter guess is taken from another thread, though. Tulpas and egregores are definitely subjects of interest if that's something you want to do.

I'm going to be honest, OP. It sounds like you're trying to work in a system whose boundaries are always changing. That's, of course, OK, but since you're a newb, I strongly suggest setting aside some of this stuff for the time being and get experienced within the context of a structured system. Even eclectic Wicca is more structured than what you're doing right now.

Note that I didn't say, "give it all up forever." Just, "give it up right now." Or at least don't let yourself get so deep. Someone more versed in non-heka magic will probably correct me, but the stuff you're doing is. . . pretty serious? As in, you want to be careful about what you do. You're trying to create, at some level, a living entity after all.

There's a whole bunch of secondary and tertiary skills involved with this, from shielding and warding, to perhaps some kind of banshing, binding, exorcising (???). I'm not trying to be alarmist. Just pointing some things out you might want to consider.

jcaternolo
14 Apr 2014, 06:28
For anyone else confused as ChainLightning:

For tulpas, start here: http://www.tulpa.info/, http://thelucidtulpamancer.tumblr.com/post/56422924559/a-collection-of-tips-and-tricks-about-tulpas-and, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa, and http://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas.

For egregores: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore, http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/sseg.php (multiple links available on this site, and http://www.kheperu.org/spirits/spirits6.html.

Some stuff on chaos magic (with practitioners sometimes called "chaosites", looks like): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic, http://www.barbelith.com/cgi-bin/articles/00000004.shtml.

My impression (and I hope OP will correct me if I'm wrong) is that jcaternolo wants to create thoughtforms for whatever reasons, including, perhaps, a deity. The latter guess is taken from another thread, though. Tulpas and egregores are definitely subjects of interest if that's something you want to do.

I'm going to be honest, OP. It sounds like you're trying to work in a system whose boundaries are always changing. That's, of course, OK, but since you're a newb, I strongly suggest setting aside some of this stuff for the time being and get experienced within the context of a structured system. Even eclectic Wicca is more structured than what you're doing right now.

Note that I didn't say, "give it all up forever." Just, "give it up right now." Or at least don't let yourself get so deep. Someone more versed in non-heka magic will probably correct me, but the stuff you're doing is. . . pretty serious? As in, you want to be careful about what you do. You're trying to create, at some level, a living entity after all.

There's a whole bunch of secondary and tertiary skills involved with this, from shielding and warding, to perhaps some kind of banshing, binding, exorcising (???). I'm not trying to be alarmist. Just pointing some things out you might want to consider.
Well, most chaosites don't even bother with warding, because warding results in more self doubt. Like, "I need these wards, because I might mess up the spell". And I think the only way to really mess up a spell is to have too much doubt, or not enough elements or something. Anyways, I'll try to read more about it later. As for demons, the only demons that would be summoned are ones that I would already have myself. And I've never dabbled in chaos magick, or any type of magick before (other than simple prayers), so I doubt I have any demons hiding in me. Although I'm gonna wait for my tulpa to become vocal, so I can have her search within me for any demons.

Satu
14 Apr 2014, 09:08
Well, most chaosites don't even bother with warding, because warding results in more self doubt. Like, "I need these wards, because I might mess up the spell".

Warding isn't about doubt. It's about *certainty*. The certainty that there are things out there that may not be friendly, or that might be a little too exuberant (not out of malice) for you to handle. Warding is about controlling your space, who has access to it, etc.

Grounding, shielding, and warding are basic skills that virtually every magician ought to know. If a chaos magician doesn't use these things, it's because s/he has mastered them, knows their usages, and has determined that, for his/her purposes, they are unneeded. You should really spend some time mastering these skills. You can read up on chaos magic and study other things, but still, basic skills. Study them.

Learning these skills will also help you regulate and control the flow of magic/energy. You're going to want to know this stuff. Don't skip it.


And I think the only way to really mess up a spell is to have too much doubt, or not enough elements or something.

Nooooo. No, no, no. I mean, yes, doubting the spell will work and not having the right tools *will* interfere with the spell's working, but it's not always that simple, especially when you're involving other entities (self-made thoughtforms or not). And then there's always an element of randomness. As they say, shit happens.


Anyways, I'll try to read more about it later. As for demons, the only demons that would be summoned are ones that I would already have myself. And I've never dabbled in chaos magick, or any type of magick before (other than simple prayers), so I doubt I have any demons hiding in me. Although I'm gonna wait for my tulpa to become vocal, so I can have her search within me for any demons.

Where the hell did anyone mention demons?

Also, I was thinking less about what's within you and more about what's with *out* you. As in, those astral nasties that are out to cause you misery.

And if you don't have the basic skills to defend yourself (even ones as basic as warding), how the hell do you expect to defend yourself even from demons living "within" you? How do you expect to keep nasties out of your house, out of your life?

I'm sorry, but it sounds like you're jumping into way advanced stuff without taking much time getting the foundations. And I get it. The basics are dull while the advanced stuff is cool, flashy, and super-empowering. I thought that way for a long time. Then I made a gigantic mess which blew up in my face. I'm not saying this is what's going to happen to you, but you seem to be staggering into a whole bunch of stuff with (I'm sorry) a high degree of cluelessness.

You're stepping into a whole new paradigm of existence. Figure out its contours before you start working with its details.

Alienist
14 Apr 2014, 09:43
I'd go for Druidism if you want something that has emphasis on nature but celtic paganism isn't that similar to Shintoism. I mean there are some similarities but quite different, too.

jcaternolo
14 Apr 2014, 10:04
Warding isn't about doubt. It's about *certainty*. The certainty that there are things out there that may not be friendly, or that might be a little too exuberant (not out of malice) for you to handle. Warding is about controlling your space, who has access to it, etc.

Grounding, shielding, and warding are basic skills that virtually every magician ought to know. If a chaos magician doesn't use these things, it's because s/he has mastered them, knows their usages, and has determined that, for his/her purposes, they are unneeded. You should really spend some time mastering these skills. You can read up on chaos magic and study other things, but still, basic skills. Study them.

Learning these skills will also help you regulate and control the flow of magic/energy. You're going to want to know this stuff. Don't skip it.



Nooooo. No, no, no. I mean, yes, doubting the spell will work and not having the right tools *will* interfere with the spell's working, but it's not always that simple, especially when you're involving other entities (self-made thoughtforms or not). And then there's always an element of randomness. As they say, shit happens.



Where the hell did anyone mention demons?

Also, I was thinking less about what's within you and more about what's with *out* you. As in, those astral nasties that are out to cause you misery.

And if you don't have the basic skills to defend yourself (even ones as basic as warding), how the hell do you expect to defend yourself even from demons living "within" you? How do you expect to keep nasties out of your house, out of your life?

I'm sorry, but it sounds like you're jumping into way advanced stuff without taking much time getting the foundations. And I get it. The basics are dull while the advanced stuff is cool, flashy, and super-empowering. I thought that way for a long time. Then I made a gigantic mess which blew up in my face. I'm not saying this is what's going to happen to you, but you seem to be staggering into a whole bunch of stuff with (I'm sorry) a high degree of cluelessness.

You're stepping into a whole new paradigm of existence. Figure out its contours before you start working with its details.
Well, I don't intend on jumping straight into it. I would be doing a lot of preparation first. Even to the point of reading two full guide books on chaos magick. And the demon part came from the fact that if someone uses chaos magick, and isn't prepared, then any demons who attached themselves to the chaosite will leave the body, and haunt his/her house. Either that, or having a demon attached to the chaosite will attract more demons. Something like that. I'm mostly just asking out of curiosity, not sure if I'll even try it yet. I've never even done anything magickal yet, so I would definitely read up on magickal basics, along with the basics of chaos magick. And probably try to learn lower tiers of magick first, before trying something so dangerous.

- - - Updated - - -


I'd go for Druidism if you want something that has emphasis on nature but celtic paganism isn't that similar to Shintoism. I mean there are some similarities but quite different, too.
I might possible go for that. Would Druidism be able to co-exist with Polytheism? As in, I call upon the deities when needed, while still working with nature? Or do Druids not believe in individual deities, but instead, believe that nature itself is divine?

Alienist
14 Apr 2014, 10:10
Well, I don't intend on jumping straight into it. I would be doing a lot of preparation first. Even to the point of reading two full guide books on chaos magick. And the demon part came from the fact that if someone uses chaos magick, and isn't prepared, then any demons who attached themselves to the chaosite will leave the body, and haunt his/her house. Either that, or having a demon attached to the chaosite will attract more demons. Something like that. I'm mostly just asking out of curiosity, not sure if I'll even try it yet. I've never even done anything magickal yet, so I would definitely read up on magickal basics, along with the basics of chaos magick. And probably try to learn lower tiers of magick first, before trying something so dangerous.

- - - Updated - - -


I might possible go for that. Would Druidism be able to co-exist with Polytheism? As in, I call upon the deities when needed, while still working with nature? Or do Druids not believe in individual deities, but instead, believe that nature itself is divine?

It depends and some people believe it in a sense that's a philosophy to be defined and some believe in it and accept it as their religion. There are a lot of celtic deities so polytheism would be great because that's what I do. Some however only believe in nature as divine or believe that everything is an aspect of the Great Goddess and some don't worship at all. It really depends on how you view Druidism which is what I like about it because it doesn't have a scripture or dogma and you can interpret how you want to. I personally do the polytheistic route and respect and venerate nature as I worship more than one deity. Ogma, Cernnunos and Brigind are the ones I pay attention to the most but Lugh is interesting to me, too. I'd check it out.

Wonder
14 Apr 2014, 11:12
Where are you getting all this from? Tulpamancers? Chaosites? The E on egregor? Have you got an extensive library? Can you give me some authors' names, to look this shit up? I've been around the Pagan and Neo-Pagan community for decades, now, and you're introducing all sorts of weird shit I've never heard of. I need sources. Lots and lots of sources.

The concept of Tulpa comes from Buddhism.

Today, in it's modern form it's kind of a phenomenon to ''create'' things out of one's mind.

Today, there are people who attempt to create what they call tulpas or imaginary friends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_friend) of their own. A number of web sites explain the methods people use to create tulpas of this sort.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa#cite_note-15) Chidambaram Ramesh, an Indian author and researchers, in his book "Thought Forms and Hallucinations" has mentioned that the creation of thought forms and other mental entities like Tulpa etc., is the result of holographic mind processing.

Link> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa

jcaternolo
14 Apr 2014, 13:17
The concept of Tulpa comes from Buddhism.

Today, in it's modern form it's kind of a phenomenon to ''create'' things out of one's mind.

Today, there are people who attempt to create what they call tulpas or imaginary friends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_friend) of their own. A number of web sites explain the methods people use to create tulpas of this sort.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa#cite_note-15) Chidambaram Ramesh, an Indian author and researchers, in his book "Thought Forms and Hallucinations" has mentioned that the creation of thought forms and other mental entities like Tulpa etc., is the result of holographic mind processing.

Link> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa
Well, considering that tulpas can pilot themselves, as well as take turns piloting the host's body, and are also capable of creating tulpas and servitors of their own, I strongly believe that they are sentient. Some tulpas have even questioned the validity of their existence, and their hosts had to assure them that they are real. I've heard of people with multiple tulpas and servitors, and I doubt even the human mind is able to subconsciously control all of them at once. There has to be something behind those thoughts. Another thing, the human brain has two halves, so there's nothing stopping a tulpa from using the other half. Although that doesn't really explain multiple tulpas (I'm guessing one is active, while the others are living in the wonderland/dreamscape).

Edit: Also, it appears that tulpas are capable of soul travel. Although one tulpa tried astral projection with his host, and his host was unable to astral project himself. He ran to use the bathroom, and when he came back, his tulpa was gone, but he could faintly see a faint image of his tulpa. He believes his tulpa is stuck somewhere in the astral plane, because it keeps fading in and out.

Doc_Holliday
14 Apr 2014, 14:48
Since this isn't a DMZ I must pass my judgement. I think the idea of a Tulpa can be explained simply by our imaginations, a powerful tool. And we can't make gods or godesses or whatever that Egregor is, afterall we're humans, if we could create gods why the **** would we need them? This whole Tulpa thing is a phenomenon for fluffy people to feel like they are the gods and creators, instead of submitting or hailing higher beings. I seen people talking about making my little pony Tulpas. It really annoys me, but I respect the opinions of others and would not say I "KNOW" they are wrong, I will however say in my opinion I strongly believe its all really egotistic.

Edit: Also as was said this thread started asking for a religion similar to Shinto and then went to you sort of saying "Screw it I'll create my own god." so I'm not sure how to help when this thread is so bouncy.

anunitu
14 Apr 2014, 16:28
We are in a bouncy Castle?????WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Doc_Holliday
14 Apr 2014, 16:30
We are in a bouncy Castle?????WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Beers turn derailed into bouncy sometimes I guess.

jcaternolo
14 Apr 2014, 17:55
Since this isn't a DMZ I must pass my judgement. I think the idea of a Tulpa can be explained simply by our imaginations, a powerful tool. And we can't make gods or godesses or whatever that Egregor is, afterall we're humans, if we could create gods why the **** would we need them? This whole Tulpa thing is a phenomenon for fluffy people to feel like they are the gods and creators, instead of submitting or hailing higher beings. I seen people talking about making my little pony Tulpas. It really annoys me, but I respect the opinions of others and would not say I "KNOW" they are wrong, I will however say in my opinion I strongly believe its all really egotistic.

Edit: Also as was said this thread started asking for a religion similar to Shinto and then went to you sort of saying "Screw it I'll create my own god." so I'm not sure how to help when this thread is so bouncy.
Well, tulpas are able to possess the host's body, they can do soul travel, they can learn things that their host doesn't know, they can think about one thing while their host thinks of something else, and they get sad, angry, happy, etc in the exact same way that we do. They can have differing opinions from the host, similar opinions, they're capable of contemplating their existence, they're capable of empathy, remorse, etc, and they have desires and dreams, all separate from their hosts. To me, that sounds fully human.

As for the thing about egregores achieving godhood, I don't really know anything about that, although a lot of people believe it's possible. It is a chaos magick belief, and it makes some pretty ludicrous claims, but basically, chaosites believe that deities, spirits, and even fictional characters can all be found on a separate plain. The deities and fictional characters aren't technically "real", but in a way, they are. Although, they appear to people in the form they expect. So if someone prays to Kali, and expects Kali the mother, they'll get Kali the mother. If they expect Kali the destroyer, they'll get Kali the destroyer.

Remember, that's not my beliefs, that's the beliefs of a chaosite. Although my beliefs are similar (deities existing on a separate plain from us). I admit, I did fall in love with the idea of helping Celestia achieve godhood, and I still think that certain popular characters can become immortalized. Because so many people believe in that character. So, reality shifts to make it true. I don't think every fictional character exists out there, but I've developed a healthy respect for the untapped powers of humanity, and the universe. So I won't rule out the possibility of there being a Popeye, Luffy, Mario, or Mickey Mouse existing on some plane. We just can't see them because we're limited to a single plane (although our souls are not).

Edit: As for why we need gods and goddesses, let me start by saying, I believe some originated as egregores, while others are naturally divine. And my view on gods and goddesses is that they're not genies who can grant wishes, but they're more like guides. Kinda like tulpas, but they're able to reach everyone.

So this brings me to the point. Why would we need another deity? Because maybe some people are just more comfortable talking with a pastel coloured sentient talking pony. There is even a religion based off Cthulu and the rest of the beings from that one book (forgot the name). And they say, if one calls out to him in a moment of madness, he'll be able to hear them. Although that doesn't make the surrounding mythos true. It's impossible to awaken the old one, and cause everyone to go mad. Mythos are just a way of explaining deities. It would make no sense for every deity's mythos to be true, because many deities mythos contradicts with each other. For instance, the Bible says Yahweh made all of earth, while Shintoism claims that a pair of kami used a paintbrush to paint Japan, then the rest of the world (if my understanding of Shintoism is correct).

Doc_Holliday
14 Apr 2014, 17:57
Well, tulpas are able to possess the host's body, they can do soul travel, they can learn things that their host doesn't know, they can think about one thing while their host thinks of something else, and they get sad, angry, happy, etc in the exact same way that we do. They can have differing opinions from the host, similar opinions, they're capable of contemplating their existence, they're capable of empathy, remorse, etc, and they have desires and dreams, all separate from their hosts. To me, that sounds fully human.

As for the thing about egregores achieving godhood, I don't really know anything about that, although a lot of people believe it's possible. It is a chaos magick belief, and it makes some pretty ludicrous claims, but basically, chaosites believe that deities, spirits, and even fictional characters can all be found on a separate plain. The deities and fictional characters aren't technically "real", but in a way, they are. Although, they appear to people in the form they expect. So if someone prays to Kali, and expects Kali the mother, they'll get Kali the mother. If they expect Kali the destroyer, they'll get Kali the destroyer.

Remember, that's not my beliefs, that's the beliefs of a chaosite. Although my beliefs are similar (deities existing on a separate plain from us). I admit, I did fall in love with the idea of helping Celestia achieve godhood, and I still think that certain popular characters can become immortalized. Because so many people believe in that character. So, reality shifts to make it true. I don't think every fictional character exists out there, but I've developed a healthy respect for the untapped powers of humanity, and the universe. So I won't rule out the possibility of there being a Popeye, Luffy, Mario, or Mickey Mouse existing on some plane. We just can't see them because we're limited to a single plane (although our souls are not).

Your beliefs would personally annoy me if they were near me, but your beliefs are not invalid and they help you explain this complex thing called life. So if its good for you I won't object, enjoy the path, and I hope you find what you're looking for here.

ChainLightning
14 Apr 2014, 18:03
Tulpas are human, now?

I was just getting used to them not being a toddler's imaginary playmate, anymore.










I really do need to go elsewhere. I'm liable to end up in a heap of trouble, here. Sorry folks; unsubscribed.

jcaternolo
14 Apr 2014, 18:10
Tulpas are human, now?

I was just getting used to them not being a toddler's imaginary playmate, anymore.










I really do need to go elsewhere. I'm liable to end up in a heap of trouble, here. Sorry folks; unsubscribed.
Probably too late, but I didn't claim tulpas were flesh and blood humans. But they are sapient. If someone somehow made a complex AI circuit that was able to fully reason, feel emotions, develop desires (without being determined by a RNG generator), and contemplate it's own existence, would it be any less sapient than a human? I think not. Now, whether that translates to humanity, there are different schools of thought about that, but to me, humanity is the ability to think, feel, and reason. I know that tulpas start off as belief, and are given memories from the host to create justification for existing, but they are perfectly capable of becoming sapient, or at least, humanlike, if enough effort is put into one.

sirz345
16 Apr 2014, 14:05
To be quite honest with you, as a follower of Shinto, I am noticing some serious misconceptions in this argument. Shinto mixes extremely well with polytheism, it is itself a polytheistic religion, the main gods associated with Shinto is the Japanese pantheon, however worship of other gods is fine, although a god like Thor, who controls storms and the sea, is very similar to Susanoo, the Japanese god of almost exactly the same things, and as a traditional Shinto follower, and I have heard this philosophy promoted elsewhere, the Japanese gods come before the other gods as they are interpretations of the same god. It is of course always up to you, the kami of the individual seas, the mountains, the rocks, ancestors are not the same as the gods, despite the word "kami" referring to all of them, the gods are generally considered much more powerful than the more common kami embodied in all things and despite they do have many powers in their area of domain (or in the case of ancestors, their own family members' lives), they are far from the same as the gods. I would encourage you to do a little reading on the Japanese pantheon and the stories of it before you jump to that conclusion. Shinto teaches there is a heaven, an earth, and an underworld called "Yomi" so believe me, there is divinity outside of nature, the gods dwell in heaven and can influence things on earth to which they have power over (Amaterasu controls the son and can affect harvest, her brother Susanoo can call about storms and make the seas calm or rough). I really do hope this is helpful and please if you are curious further feel free to message me with questions.

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Shinto has been combined with seemingly disparate traditions before, particularly Buddhism. In East Asia, the lines between religions often blur. The cognitive dissonance does not seem to bother practitioners as much as it does here in the West. Buddhism seems, at its core teachings, antithetical to some of the concepts in Confucianism, Shinto, Tibetan shamanism, and many other traditions, but the systems have mingled and influenced each other for centuries.

Also, Shinto is a deeply ethnic religion. I mean, in a way all religions are tied up sociologically with a people, but some seem seem to have a more universalist approach or an easier time being adopted by others outside the original culture. Missionary religions like Christianity and Buddhism were much easier to adopt to other cultures whereas Shinto, for example, is extraordinarily rare outside of the Japanese. That might present a challenge but in the end, I do not see how it would be difficult to approach Shinto along with your current beliefs.

The reason it is rare is due to a number of reasons, a big one being Japan cutting itself off from the world around the later half of the 16th century. It did spread however, Ryukyu, a trade partner of Japan before Japan isolated itself is widely considered to have practiced the faith besides Ryukyuans being considered completely separate from Japan with many Ryukyuans (now called Okinawans) still considering themselves non-Japanese. A religious movement does exist in Shinto known as Ko-Shinto, this is a movement trying to restore Shinto before the spread of Buddhism and Daoism into Japan, which in my honest opinion, tainted the faith. Unfortunately, this is extraordinarily hard due to the fact that by the time Japan started producing literature and most of its records, Buddhist and Daoist beliefs were well rooted in Shinto. I personally follow Ko-Shinto, it is not hard, basically it just throws out the beliefs that are very clearly Buddhist and Daoist (i.e. meditation).