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LeviImmortal
17 Jul 2014, 12:33
I thought Demons were not supposed to be evoked and commanded using ceremonial magick?
What's the difference between Goetic Magick and Goetic Theurgy?
Why are Goetic Demons deemed more "human friendly" than any other class or legion of demons?

Rae'ya
17 Jul 2014, 16:13
I thought Demons were not supposed to be evoked and commanded using ceremonial magick?

This depends entirely on your perspective and the tradition within which you work. Which is why in your other post about experiences with Demons I asked what perspective you were coming from. A Ceremonial Magician has a very different opinion about this than a Demonolator.

Many Ceremonial Magicians still evoke Demons in the old-school Key of Solomon style... but if you spend some time within the community you'll see that it's something only for experienced magicians and many also suffer the consequences. But to even achieve this you first need either the skill to summon the Demon in the first place, or be well enough on Their radar for Them to show up when you call. Then you need to skill to keep the bindings in place in opposition to the will of the Demon... which as far as I can tell is no easy feat (I've never used them myself, but I can hypothesise based on my own skill and experience). This is why there are so many horror stories about working with Demons... because Ceremonial Magicians do a good job pissing them off.

As a Demonolator, you should never evoke and command. Demonolators are devotees and worshipers, who happen to use many of the techniques of Ceremonial Magick (along with various other techniques). The relationship between practitioner and Demon is very different, and in this context, to evoke and command is a big no-no. Demonolators generally don't have horror stories about Demons, because the approach is completely different. If you approach a Demon with respect and an open mind, you'll find that once you get Their attention (which can be difficult... from what I can tell, they are used to ignoring dabblers), They are open to a reciprocal working relationship.

Either way, evoking and commanding Demons is incredibly disrespectful to Them as deities/divinities/higher powers. So whether or not you 'should do it' depends on whether you care about being respectful or disrespectful, and your fundamental ethos about deities. As a Demonolator, I obviously believe that you shouldn't do it, and that if you do, then you deserve whatever harmful consequence the Demon deems necessary.

There is also a third subset of working with Demons which is sometimes seen in neo-paganism, where the Demons are not seen as actual individual entities but as representations of your own personal inner 'demons'. Personally I think that the Demons don't pay much attention to this (just as other deities don't pay much attention to non-believers), so it's more of a grey area when it comes to the 'ethics' of the treatment of Demons.


What's the difference between Goetic Magick and Goetic Theurgy?

Torey can probably answer this one better than I can, as he's generally better aquainted with ceremonial magick and it's techniques. My basic understanding is that Goetic Theurgy is more at the old-school CM end of the spectrum, where evoking and commanding the Geotic Demons is part of the rituals to elevate oneself and achieve unity with the Divine (as seen by CMs as the overarching Divine, rather than as Divine entities). Technically, 'theurgy' is just working with deities through ritual, but it's not a term that is used in neo-paganism much and so it's generally accepted definition within the community at large is influenced by it's use within the CM community. It can actually be done in a respectful manner (using invocation rather than evocation), but that all comes down to the practitioner.

Goetic Magick is everything else... it's a catch all term that is used by many different practitioners and styles of practice. If you Google 'Goetic Magick', you'll get pseudo-ceremonialists, ceremonialists, those who believe the Goetia are just representations, and Demonolators. So there isn't really any one definition of Goetic Magick.

And neither of these terms can be split neatly between 'respectful' and 'disrespectful' practice. They are just slightly different approaches. It's the practitioner themselves who dictates what the attitude of the approach is.


Why are Goetic Demons deemed more "human friendly" than any other class or legion of demons?

That depends on who you talk to. This is not a common belief amongst Demonolators. It's quite the opposite for many Demonolators, in that the Dukante Demons are considered more friendly and approachable. To be honest, CMs probably consider them more workable because they have a clear workbook telling them how to do it... whereas there is no workbook, instructions or set of seals and triangles for working with other Demons or with lesser demons.

This also comes down to your definition of 'Demon' and/or 'demon'. If you wish to include the Hellenic daemon/daimon, then there are types of daemon who are specifically and actively benevolent, which would make them much more 'human friendly' than the Goetia.

Demons in general are a tricky bunch... humans have a long, long history of abusing our communication with them, which means that certain Demons have a great deal of mistrust for humans who reach out to Them. It's not uncommon to find an instant connection with one Demon while being completely ignored by others. The Goetic Demons are generally more accessible, because we have more evidence of direct communication and active relationships from a historical standpoint, so They tend to be the first port of call for people drawn to working with Demons. But for generational Demonolators who are working with the Demons from their family grimoires, the story is quite different.

MaskedOne
17 Jul 2014, 16:43
My general position here amounts to

1) If you can build a friendly relation then it's vastly superior to treating a Power as a servant/slave

2) If you can't build a friendly relation but are friends with other beings that you trust to contain and compel a Power then why don't you just ask the beings doing the compelling for what you need

3) If you have the personal knowledge and ability to compel a Power without aid from other Powers then you probably don't need to be summoning and compelling to get what you want

The conditions where you should have cause to be giving a Power any directive beyond "Go Away!!" are few and far between.

Optimistic discord
19 Jul 2014, 14:45
It depends on your flavour of belief , but even then dealing with demons is serious buisness, be they supernatural creatures or just aspects of our own psyche.( its why we have psychiatrists and councillors).
Goetic theurgy is mainly focused with achieving new stages of enlightenment or henosis through rituals and life changes.
Few people have the will to follow GT for long as it requires the individual to make sacrifices and alter their life , attitude and behaviour.

in theory its safer as everything is pretty much prewritten, but the confrontational nature of it is taxing and can lead to mistakes.

Goetic magic is just a term for any practise that uses goetic works or high ceremonial rites. Its a tool as opposed to a path.