Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions
Hey, sorry it's been a while. I've been chatting a lot with one of my Japanese friends lately so was throwing my questions her way. Not that I always really understand the answer, so I'll possibly ask the same things here to see if a native English speaker can make it clearer. She still says I sound too polite, but I'm gradually getting the hang of casual Japanese. Anyway, my next question isn't quite a grammar thing. I want to know what the Japanese for 'bed pan' is. Is there some kind of pun/play on words involving bed pans? Needless to say, I can't find this in a dictionary and don't really want to ask my friends if I can help it. Thanks in advance.
Ah wait... While I am here I may as well ask.. am I right to use '-te miru' when I want to imply that I'll attempt to do something (like, try to reach the sachet of soy sauce that fell down the side of the oven), or is it actually only for when one is trying something for the experience? I use it in both cases, but I noticed books tend to give examples of 'why don't you try yoga' or 'I'd like to try sashimi' or whatever. I know there is '-(y)ou to suru', but (I think), this is always negative.. so I tried to get the sachet of soy sauce but couldn't reach. Hope you understand what I am asking but if not I'll give some examples in Japanese so you can see what I am trying to say and if it sounds wrong.
---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------
Oh btw... You'll be pleased to know that I did get the sauce! Gonna make some lovely vegetable soup now!!
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Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions
Thanks for yet another perfect answer! So basically, as with English, I can just use whatever rolls off my tongue in most cases? I assume the finer differences would become more instinctive should I ever find myself in a postition where I can use Japanese as my primary language (unlikely, but who knows).
I could ask my friends about nakyanai if you wish, but as soon as I read your explanation of nakute wa and nakyanaranai, I was quite sure this is what I had heard and I have just been saying it wrong! So I doubt my friends will disagree with you that nakyanai doesn't exist.
Okay, no doubt my next question won't be too far behind!Last edited by Jembru; 17 Jan 2012, 21:07.Leave a comment:
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Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions
The difference between {-たら} and {-ば} is, in most cases, negligible but they do mean different things. {-たら} is based on the completion tense {-た}, and {-ば} is a conditional modifier. Basically, it's the difference between "if/when something is done (it has been done or will be done), then something will happen" and "if something were to happen (it may or may not, and it could very well be purely hypothetical)". There isn't even necessary to have a spoken or assumed "then" clause with {-ば}, although there can be.Originally posted by Jembru View Post
The difference between your example sentences then is (roughly), "Whenever I eat that fish, my stomach hurts" (I've done it before, and so I know) as opposed to "If I were to eat that fish, my stomach would hurt" (I may have had this happen, but I may also be basing this on stuff my doctor or other people have told me based on other things I've eaten). As in English, they mean basically the same thing, but the connotation is different.
For {なければならない｝, no, you cannot replace it with {なくたらならない}. The phrase means "it would be impossible to not do that" or "that cannot not be" (i.e. "must"). As such, {-たら}, which indicates completion and the resulting consequences, is inappropriate to use for this particular phrase. A variation on it that's acceptable, though, is {なくてはならない}, meaning "(as for) not having/being X, that cannot be". That {なくては} is often shortened in colloquial speech to {なきゃ｝. I've never heard someone say {なきゃない｝, but it's possible that it's a slang that's developed since I've been keeping track. What I did hear, a lot, was {なきゃならない}, and I use it myself, too.
{もし｝ is a different bag, but we can discuss it when you want. Just let me know what you want to know about it or anything else, and I'll be happy to start talking too much on the subject.Leave a comment:
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Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions
Thanks for the reply! I either missed that kanji the first time around, or I read your post on my phone (some symbols don't show up on there and just appear as little empty squares). I'll try to ensure I have read carefully before posting my next question from now on.
For now, I don't think I have any more questions on kanji. I'm happy being able to read hiragana and katakana, with a limited knowledge of kanji for the time being. Maybe when I max out my verbal skills, my thirst to learn more will lead me back to kanji, but that's a few years off yet, so I'm going to focus on using Japanese for verbal communication.
There are a lot of things I say in Japanese that I think I have completely invented, and I am trying to keep a mental note, but I keep forgetting. BUT, your reply did remind me one thing I've been dying to understand...
You mentioned the conditional -(r)eba verb suffix in your reply (you mentioned '-ba' actually, but lets not confuse me just yet.. just humour me).
Well, I tend to favour the suffix '-tara' to express the conditional. Maybe because it is easier, as it's just an extension of the plain past of the verb. What I want to know is, are these two really interchangeable, or am I probably not quite saying what I think I am when I use it? I have looked up examples of both and both seem to be used in the same way -in the same way English would use 'if' or in the case of a habitual action, 'when'. So for example, would both of these be correct.. 'Sono sakana o tabetara onaka ga itaku naru' or 'Sono sakana o tabereba onaka ga itaku naru', or is one incorrect? If both are okay, do they have different meanings or nuances?
The only time I use (r)eba is in expressions like -nakereba naranai*/ikenai, that I assume are not compatable with the '-tara' suffix. Actually, I only assume this because I've never noticed it and none of the books I've studied from have included this, but I am not the worlds most observant individual.
To complicate things even more, JP doesn't like conjugating verbs very much, so prefers to use 'moshi', which opens up a whole new chapter to this already long question. Maybe we come back to moshi (and nara) later?
*Oh this is one of the things I suspect I may have invented. In casual speech, can this be shortened to 'nak'ya nai'? I've looked it up and don't see this in any books I have, but I could swear I have heard this and must have either been told, or read it, to have been able to link it to the non-contracted form. Even though I don't know if this is even real, I use it a lot. A fine example of what I keep saying is my biggest concern.
I really hope this isn't too much of a chore for you, and that you are enjoying answering this kind of thing.. because there's loads more to cover yet. The grammar I am unsure of, far outweighs that which I am confident with!Leave a comment:
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Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions
I have no trouble with passing along my knowledge. It makes it seem like it was actually worth the time and effort to acquire.Originally posted by Jembru View Post
As for /kotoha/, you might see someone intentionally pronouncing it that way, but it would be purely as a joke, like putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable in English.
As for the particles {は}, {を}, etc., they're that way because of the progression and development of Japanese over many long centuries. {は} actually started as {ば} /ba/, and was often used in a sense similar to the modern suffix {-ば} meaning "if, under the circumstances of" or (less frequently) "when". Eventually, due to pronunciation shifts, the vocalization was dropped and it was pronounced as [fʰ a], similar to {ふ} [fʰ u] is pronounced today. Over time, the topic marker particle came to be pronounced as /wa/, instead, and that's how we have it today. Because of that connection, it's still written {は}, despite its pronunciation.
{を} used to actually be pronounced /wo/ rather than just /o/, but over time as its pronunciation shifted it came to be used exclusive for the direct object marker particle. I'm sure that they stuck with {を} in order to avoid confusion with the honorific suffix {お-}, as the kanji {御} fell out of use for anything but formal writing.
There actually used to be characters filling out the entire syllabary chart, including /yi/, /ye/, /wi/, /wu/, and /we/, that were actually used in words from time to time ({を}, as well), but due to their infrequent usage and pronunciation that shifted to identically mirror the standard /i/, /u/, and /e/, and their interchangeability with those characters, they were dropped as part of a simplification of written Japanese as part of linguistic reform efforts after WWII. It was around that time that the official list of {常用漢字} [ʤjoː joː kaŋʤi] was formalized, as well, limiting the characters that could be used in official documentation to the list of 1,945 characters that are in use today (plus another couple of hundred officially sanctioned {名用感じ} [meijoː kaŋʤi] for use in proper nouns).
Yes, there is a "ditto" character in Japanese, used for a repeated kanji. You can see it in my original post, {々}. It is used exclusively for that purpose, and has no meaning or pronunciation on its own. There's also a character that has a similar meaning when copying a hiragana or katakana character, but it's used so infrequently that my word processor won't generate the character and I can't find it using a Google search right now. If I can get my hands on it, I'll post it later for you to see.
Any other questions?Leave a comment:
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Re: Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions
That does clear it up for me, but a teacher always checks their students' understanding before moving on, so if you don't mind, I'll try to put it into my own words so you can check I have it..
So mainly it is just for the ease of pronunciation. I saw the same concept while studying German; that letters would sometimes be added to words (in particular, compound nouns where two or more nouns are spliced together), in order to make pronunciation easier. So I can grasp this concept no problem. This is possibly already an intuitive thing for me, if only because I am constantly speaking Japanese to my boyfriend so am used to pronouncing words, if nothing else (not saying it's correct, but the difficulties in pronouncing some combinations would be present whether my accent was good or not).
On a related side note, JP and I tend to speak Japanese more than English, but this is exactly why I am worried and want to study with a living teacher rather than a book, as neither of us are fluent and so just copy one another's grammar mistakes, creating a language that is based on, but not the same as, Japanese. My goal is to gradually iron out these errors. JP never studied the language and learnt completely by imitation, (although looked up words for clarity). His grammar is entirely intuitive so I'm hoping when my own grammar improves, he'll copy automatically.
Anyway... back to my reiteration. So one would never pronounce 'kotoba' as 'kotoha' for example, because this is damned awkward to say? Which also explains why when ha is used as a particle, it sounds more like 'wa' (same for 'wo'... damn, I wish I could type Japanese on this thing... wait, I have an idea... を Thank you google!). I assume the reason the particle は, is never changed to ば is to avoid confusion, so only one, rather than two, hiragana is ever used.
It's funny you mentioned the doubled kanji words, hitobito, tokidoki and all those, because I was originally going to in my initial question but realised it was getting too long. There is a related question though. I think I remember this right... there was a kanji that was sometimes used to indicate that the kanji before was repeated. What is this kanji and does it also stand alone with it's own meaning and reading? Or does it exist only for this purpose? Have I made it up altogether? It has been about 6 years since I last studied kanji so I have forgotten a lot and seem to have a few false memories.
Thank you for starting this thread. I've a feeling I might dominate it somewhat though. Sorry if I do. I do appreciate the free tuition. It's 40 quid a lesson around here you know! JP and I did consider booking some together, and we may book a few before we go to Japan, or my friends come here, whichever is soonest. The teacher will come to our home, which is nice, but it would be to iron out our spoken mistakes that you won't be exposed to. Far better to improve our Japanese BEFORE the private lessons. So you are being a huge help and although our personalities seem to clash, I honestly appreciate your effort!Leave a comment:
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Weird / Complicated / Tough Japanese Grammar Questions
This thread is for questions about Japanese pronunciation, grammar, etymology, etc. I've intended this to be supplementary to kijani's The Japanese Language Learning Thread (v2.0), so please ask any major questions about learning Japanese there. This is more for unusual, uncommon, or particularly difficult questions that would just bog that thread down or send it on an unrecoverable tangent.
Generally speaking, I'm going to be using IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) to transcribe pronunciation in this thread since it's the easiest way to convey how these words/sounds should be said. If you're not familiar with IPA you can find out about how to read it on Wikipedia here: IPA
You can also check Wikipedia's specific articles for consonants and vowels, which are handy because they have audio clips to help you get a better idea of the sounds.
Consonants
Vowels
I realize that Wikipedia is a spurious source under most circumstances, but the pages I've linked are reliable (or reliable enough) for my intended purpose.
Also, just to make it clear, when I type a symbol in brackets -- [n] -- that is its phonetic value (as close as I can approximate it to how it's actually said. If I type a symbol in slashes -- /n/ -- that is its phonemic value (the sound a native speaker associates it with, which may or may not be the same as how it's actually said). If I type a symbol in squiggly brackets -- {n} -- that's the orthographic transcription of the sound (i.e. how you spell it when writing it normally).
So, if you have a question about Japanese words or language and you're having trouble getting an answer (or don't understand the answer you're getting), then I'll gladly do my best to answer it for you here.
どうぞ、よろしく。
---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------
This question comes from my intro thread here.Originally posted by Jembru View Post
Japanese pronunciation is at the same time very easy and harder than you think. Like with most languages, though, it's very intuitive once you've spoken it as your primary language for long enough. Most of the changes in pronunciation that you're talking about are to make it easier to say certain words. You frequently will get situations where the unvoiced consonant in the second part of a compound word is vocalized (such as the /s/ in saru turning into a /z/ in my screen name) simply because it's easier to say it that way.
This is a standard feature of most languages' phonetic structure. It's easier to say voiced consonants (especially stops and fricatives) that come between two voiced sounds (most prominently vowels) than it is to say their voiceless counterpart. Since you're already engaging your vocal cords when saying the sounds on either side of the consonant in question, the voicing naturally bleeds over into it. This is why we say [kʰ aɹz] instead of [kʰ aɹs] (unless you consciously soften that final {s}).
This shows up in a lot of Japanese compound words. For example, there's a whole category of words where you just repeat a term to basically mean "a whole helluva lot of that". {様々} /samazama/ is based on a doubling of the word that means "appearance, likeness, in the manner of" and so basically is like saying "a whole helluva lot of likenesses" and comes across with a meaning of "various, all sorts, every kind of [something]". Another example is {方々} /katagata/, which is a douling of a word which can mean "way, method" or "person" in formal circumstances. This is a very formal way of saying "people" (usually of people in general, or a large group).
If you notice, both of those words end up vocalizing the initial sound of the repeated word. /s/ becomes /z/ and /k/ becomes /g/.
For your specific question, though, we have to look at another aspect of Japanese compound words. The characters that make up {日本} are separately pronounced /nichi/ and /hon/. In compound words, {日} is often pronounced as either /ni/ or {にっ} [ ni ̚ ]. If you're familiar with basic Japanese writing, you'll recognize that {っ} as a mark that the following sound will be doubled. The different pronunciations of {日本} are a result of these two different ways of inserting {日} into a compound. If you read it as /ni/ then the word becomes /nihon/. Since you can't really double an /h/, if you read it as [ ni ̚ ], then the /h/ is pronounced as a /p/ and the word becomes /nipːon/.
If that didn't quite make sense, then I'd recommend that you take a look at a Japanese syllabary/pronunciation chart to see how the sounds are related. (In Japanese, /h/ sounds are phonemically linked to /p/ and /b/.)
I hope that answered your question. Let me know if that wasn't clear, or if you have some questions about my explanation.Last edited by Zazaru; 14 Jan 2012, 12:02.
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