All Things Aquaria

[Rowanwood]

Re: All Things Aquaria

I've had really good luck with getting the quick start bacterial treatments for new tanks. It might be the kick start you need to get this balanced.

http://www.apifishcare.com/product.php?id=618#.U_OA53CshcY

or

http://www.amazon.com/Tetra-77961-SafeStart-3-38-Ounce-gallons/dp/B002DZG1BW

[Rae'ya]

Re: All Things Aquaria

Sudden fluctuations in water temp and chemistry are what's harmful, which is why you should only change 25% at a time. Sudden changes stress and shock the fish. Don't rely on your heater to keep the water temp even after a water change if you havn't heated the new water... putting cold water in will drop the temp and it will take your heater a few hours to bring it back up again.

I agree that sometimes fish surprise us... my sister moved into a rental a few years ago that had an overgrown sludgy pond out the back. A few months in she decided to clean it out and get some fish. She pulled all the duckweed out and discovered there were two goldfish in there! They'd been living in the overgrown muck for at least a year, because the last tenants didn't know they were in there either!

[Corvus]

Re: All Things Aquaria

I'll keep this all in mind. All these beginner guides seem to have water changes as the solution to every problem. I didn't realize it could be so harmful. I'll do it once a week from now on and try to pick up a testing kit.

I've kept some ornamental shiny rocks from the old gravel and the one ornament from the old tank the previous owner had, as well as the old gravel being in the tank before it was changed. I was hoping those would be able to seed the new water. Mom threw away all the old equipment when the new stuff came so I don't have access to the old filter media.

I actually do have a gravel vacuum and did water changes in that way of taking water from the bottom. I knew I didn't want to bucket out water so a vacuum was one of the first things we got. It's got two sections of tubing connected to a hollow plastic section that you squeeze to pump water, then the head has a long hollow section to catch the water. The new heater is keeping the water at a consistent temperature also, it's slightly higher than what it's set to but it's not varying much from one time of day to another. Right now the tank is in the high 70s (F) which I think is fine since they're tropical fish and it's inside the range for silver's recommendation.

I was reading about veggies that are good treats for the fish. Silvers are notorious with all kinds of plants so figured they would be fine and I read plecos like cucumber too so I was planning on dicing some at some point for them. There were some flies in the tank water, my house has tons of fruit flies and black flies because my brothers make messes but we're cleaning those up and it's a different story anyway, but I'm pretty sure the silvers ate them so.. that's something I guess. I figured that they would eat them so I didn't bother fishing out the insects.

Since all the fish are so big it would follow it takes more ammonia to kill them, which is what I'm hoping will get them through the cycling if I mess something up. From what I understand Silver Dollars, and to a lesser degree Plecos, are fairly hardy.

[Heka]

How I got my turtle through that first 6-8 weeks?

Tests daily, and water changes only when the ammonia or nitrites spiked.

Also if you have an old filter and a new filter, putting the old filter media in the new filter can help to speed up the process by 'seeding' your new filter.

[Rae'ya]

Re: All Things Aquaria

Corvus, the trickiest part about your whole situation is that you have a new tank with fish in it straight away... and by 'new tank' I mean that it's got new water in it. Because it's the water that is the foundation of your ecosystem and if it hasn't had a chance to cycle properly first then it makes everything difficult. Ammonia spikes are normal in a fresh system... Heka mentioned somewhere about nitrates and nitrates etc etc... all that jargon is basically talking about the natural chemical cycles that happen to a tank once you set it up. The ideal situation is to set up your tank, stick in all your furniture, run your pump and then either add some sacrificial fish or put in some 'false fish' and leave it alone for 6 weeks to do it's thing. At that stage you are not actually tweaking things like ammonia, pH, nitrates, nitrates etc... you're monitoring it to see when it's ready to put fish into it. Things will spike and drop in relation to each other, in relation to the bacteria building up in the filter, and in relation to what's in the tank. Once it's reached it's equilibrium, it's generally safe to put the fish in it.

Obviously we can't do that with your tank, 'cos you got it foisted on you despite all your best efforts. So it's got fish in it that you obviously don't want to inadvertently kill. The tricky part is that the tank wants to do it's natural cycling things, which is why the ammonia spiked (in your first pic... the new pic looks much better). The problem there is that if we get too excited about doing lots of water changes etc to bring the ammonia down, then the nitrates and nitrites aren't going to be able to do THEIR thing. That's why Heka mentioned the Ammo-lock stuff that means the ammonia is not harmful to the fish but can still allow the water to cycle. The bottom line there is that if you start trying to do lots of water changes in order control the ammonia, you're going to fall into the same trap that Chain did when HE was doing lots of water changes.

We're walking a very fine balance here... how do we get your tank to cycle but keep the fish alive? That's the hard part. Most people in your situation lose the first lot of fish, immediately replace them, possibly lose the second lot, and manage to keep the third lot because by that stage the tank has cycled and everything magically falls into place (my sister is going through this at the moment, because the stupid pet store sold her a new tank AND fish all at once... she's lost 3 out of 5 fish so far).

So I'm a little bit worried about your plan to do lots of water changes, because that may control the ammonia but it will mess with the water being able to cycle and may inhibit the healthy bacterial growth in your filter. Now, I have no experience with a heated/tropical tank or with a saltwater tank... my experience is with goldfish, danios and one little catfish that just kept on living and living despite all odds. So I'll let Chain or one of the others correct me if my info is not applicable to your particular species.

I do kind of get where your mum may be coming from... if she's used to having an established tank (although with her history prior to this Beta she could just be talking out her arse). Well established tanks that are not overstocked, that have adequate filtration, a good bacterial colony in a bio-filter, with good oxygenation and not exposed to too much sunlight CAN do very well with minimal interference. If you get the balance right then a tank can be largely self-maintaining. Maybe she's thinking of this? Or maybe she just doesn't know what she's talking about. Either way, I would never do water changes more than weekly unless you don't have filtration. I also only ever did water changes with a gravel filter, and never more than 25%. Gravel filters are great for two reasons... firstly for the reason Heka mentioned, but also because they take the water from the bottom of the tank, which is ideally where you should take your water from (versus taking the water from the top of the tank). It also means you don't have to remove the fish, which is less stressful for them. Once you get into the swing of monitoring your nitrite/nitrate levels you will work out what the best water change schedule is (I used to do mine fortnightly... weekly seemed to make my water quality unstable and messed with the pH too much).

Other things to think about with water changes are the water you are putting back into the tank... it's important to make sure that the water temps are roughly the same (water out of the cold tap is usually too cold) and that you treat the tap water with it's conditioners BEFORE adding it into the tank. Also, rinse filter media in the old tank water, NOT under the tap (you probably haven't got up to that part yet, but when you do, keep this in mind). Rinsing filter media is just about getting rid of the surface scum so that it can keep filtering... you actually don't want to clean it all out because that will kill your bacterial colony.

Water changes are important, but they can be deadly if you are doing them wrong.

[Heka]

I would suggest getting a gravel vaccum for cleaning your tank. It allows you to suck up muck, without removing the gravel, but moves the gravel enough that ick doesnt grow in it, also lets you remove some water.

Cleaning the tank once a week, with a gravel cleaner, to the 25% mark should be sufficient.

Hell, if its the recommended for a turtle, it should be fine for your fish.

[Ophidia]

Re: All Things Aquaria

I was gonna say, Corvus, that sometimes fish & reptiles won't 'outgrow' their habitats, so you might get lucky & the silver dollars will stay somewhat small.

However, that pleco is huge! Holy catfish! If you have any fish-fancier groups in your area, or actual aquarium stores, some places might do fish-swaps or offer exchanges. Maybe you could trade him for a smaller breed of algae eater?

If you're worried about him getting enough to eat, there are some fish-safe veggies (and even some fruits, but you have to be careful because of the sugars causing bacterial blooms) you can feed them. It's usually best to blanch fresh veggies in distilled water before adding them to the tank, just to make sure they don't add to the bacterial/chemical load. Stuff like cabbage, spinach, peas, lima beans, corn and broccoli are usually easy to start with. The peas, corn & beans will sink, the leafy stuff will float, but you can weight it down with the statue or a big rock. If you try broccoli, turnips or sweet potatoes cut them up into smaller pieces. Try different things, see if your fish eat any of it, and whatever they don't eat immediately can be left safely for about 24 hours.

[ChainLightning]

Re: All Things Aquaria

Yup, tank looks great!

As for dipping your hand or arm into the tank, the concern is all about the oils and whatnot, on your skin. Contaminates, certain bacteria, and things like that, could very well be fatal, to your fish. However, personal opinion? I don't think you're likely to put your hand in the aquarium, after soaking your entire arm in bleach. Or carb cleaner. Common sense tells you that you need to be clean, preferably with non-perfumed soap and none of that antibacterial crap. I had fish that loved it when I put my hand or arm in their tank. They'd come along and nibble at the hair of my arm. I even had a cory that would race for my hand or arm to pick the air bubbles off.

"Should you" take the chance to pollute the water? Well. Are your fish hardy? Or have you been washing up with toxic waste? I mean, as long as you're careful about what's on your skin, there isn't really a problem to speak of. Just that some people are really anal about "preserving the habitat", and making other people worry, needlessly.


As for stinging, though? My guess is that it's from the ammonia/nitrate cycle? Ammonia does bad things for fish, it also does bad things for your skin. If that's not it, check the Ph of the water, for acidity or alkaline content. Another good possibility for irritating the skin is simply having a reaction to any untoward chemicals, be they additives or naturally occurring. (For instance, some people have a nasty reaction to chlorine, even if it's dissolved completely and in very low quantities.)

[Corvus]

Re: All Things Aquaria

My mom does actually keep fish, well a beta for now, in a little bowl on her desk. It seems fairly healthy and she actually seems to take care of it like she's supposed to. However, in the past she did the tank thing with a 15-20 gallon we have in the basement and killed a good 60 fish over a few months. I really don't get where she got the only do a water change/clean the tank once a month thing from, between that and overstocking I think that's why all her other fish died. The Beta bowl she cleans weekly (It's maybe 3 gallons I think with a little light and filter).

Okay, I can do this! I am confident. Though, any tips are certainly helpful and the information you guys have posted is valued and I love you all.

Oh question: I've found conflicting info about it but is sticking your hand/arm in the tank harmful? Some things say it's fine if you rinse your hands first and others that you shouldn't do it. I find my skin gets very dry and sometimes stings (with no cuts or things) after going in the tank.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's an update on what the tank looks like. The water looks much better after the new gravel. With the old gravel even after the gravel was rinsed the water was murky as soon as it went in the tank. Does this seem better than the last one?

[ChainLightning]

Re: All Things Aquaria

I'm just becoming profoundly irritated. I'm going to see if I can talk him into getting algae wafers instead of a fish so the pleco doesn't starve. There's virtually nothing for it to eat in the tank because it's been cleaned very well, the gravel is now new, and the flake food doesn't sink (plus I don't feed them much so there's never anything left floating anyway). I'm expected to care for these fish and my parents keep fighting me. I really don't want them to die because it'll be my fault since I'm their owner.

If anything I want less fish, not more. Or more tiny fish and less big fish ... but that's not happening in the foreseeable future.

Your silvers will like the algae wafers, too, most likely.

I understand where you're coming from. If your parents weren't pushing so hard, you'd find it way more fun and interesting, doing all the setup stuff not just fish keeping. If only it were so easy to say to them, "you want this or that in the tank, YOU take the tank, and YOU take care of the fish." Alas, those aren't the cards that were dealt. I just gotta say, keep telling yourself that you CAN do this. It's rewarding, regardless of the family interference. Like I said before, first thing's first. Please, don't borrow tomorrow's trouble for a more stressful day, today.

You got this. Piece o'cake.

[Corvus]

Re: All Things Aquaria

I'm just becoming profoundly irritated. I'm going to see if I can talk him into getting algae wafers instead of a fish so the pleco doesn't starve. There's virtually nothing for it to eat in the tank because it's been cleaned very well, the gravel is now new, and the flake food doesn't sink (plus I don't feed them much so there's never anything left floating anyway). I'm expected to care for these fish and my parents keep fighting me. I really don't want them to die because it'll be my fault since I'm their owner.

If anything I want less fish, not more. Or more tiny fish and less big fish ... but that's not happening in the foreseeable future.

[ChainLightning]

Re: All Things Aquaria

It's a 30 gallon tank. I know I shouldn't put anymore fish in but my dad wouldn't listen. I knew silvers got big but now that I know I have a pleco I realize I'm screwed and I'm pretty pissed about it. If you check the other post I recently made it sums up my thoughts.

I know I'm sounding whiny with this but this is not what I signed up for. No one would even tell me what kind of fish they were until we already picked them up, then I got told it was a an algae eater and they didn't get any bigger than that.

I read your confession post, too. Not all plecos get huge. One of mine did, the other didn't grow past about 8 inches. If the pleco you have IS a large one? Yeah, it'll spell trouble, down the road a ways. But for a 30 gallon tank, and assuming a conservative estimate of the 2 silvers' potential, at about 5 inches, you'd actually be within the guideline, with those two and the pleco, at 10 inches.

Pearl gouramis only get to about 3 or maybe 4 inches. It would get a bit crowded, if they all hit their full size. The keystone will be that pleco, and whether or not he's of a subspecies that stays a bit smaller than usual. Don't fret, my friend. First thing's first.

Get the tank cycled and ready to rock, and add whatever it is your dad is demanding. I'd say no more than 2, because of the limits of the tank. It's entirely possible, you know, that in a year or two, of watching these fun little guys, you might actually want to expand to a 55 gallon, (that the pleco would love, btw) or more. Ya never know. I think you're on the right track, you're looking up information, you're considering before jumping and not doing any impulsive "load up the tank" mistakes that many people do, with their first fish. Hang in there!

[Corvus]

Re: All Things Aquaria

It's a 30 gallon tank. I know I shouldn't put anymore fish in but my dad wouldn't listen. I knew silvers got big but now that I know I have a pleco I realize I'm screwed and I'm pretty pissed about it. If you check the other post I recently made it sums up my thoughts.

I know I'm sounding whiny with this but this is not what I signed up for. No one would even tell me what kind of fish they were until we already picked them up, then I got told it was a an algae eater and they didn't get any bigger than that. I'm very aware my tank is overstocked but my parents just aren't listening to me. Add in my mom doesn't seem to get that fish poop and tells me I only need to change the water once a month. With the number of fish in this tank I'll need to be doing it every other day to keep the water clear.

I figured I would just do water changed every day if I needed to. It seems like we keep getting pets that I end up needing to take care of and no one asks me about it so I just do it.

[ChainLightning]

Re: All Things Aquaria

That's interesting. I always kinda assumed fish behaved how their species is normally supposed to. I'll tell the pet store people about the conditions I keep my fish in and the type of fish and get a species recommendation, then look at the individual fish to see which seem the most well behaved and healthy. Do you have any specific species recommendations?

The bottom feeder looks exactly like the second picture. The fella is easily half a foot long and has a habit of slithering up the side of the tank at night very quickly. So, it's a pleco then? (I image searched the picture). If it is it seems all my fish prefer low light conditions, which explains why they all move much more often at night and when I have the light off.

In all the fast-flying chit chat, I missed how big of a tank that is, that you got there. How big is it, again?

The silvers dollars, as I'm sure you're aware, can get pretty sizable. So can that pleco. (Biggest pleco I've seen was around 22 inches, at my kids' school.) Granted, the silvers are skittish herbivores so they wouldn't be looking to feast on small newcomers but still, I'd want species that got up over 2 inches, minimum.

I've had really good luck with rainbow sharks, (get up to about 4-6 inches) even though they're labeled as semi-aggressive. The ONLY time I had a rainbow be aggressive, he was in a tank with another rainbow and two red-tail sharks. The four sorta took turns chasing the other three... but clearly the rainbows were the bosses. I mentioned the gouramis and barbs, earlier? Gold, tiger and rosy barbs can make for a good match up, though the slow nature of the silvers might see their fins getting nipped a bit. Even a better choice would be a couple of pearl gouramis, they'll most likely leave the fins alone, on the silvers.

The real question, though, is size. With a 55 gallon tank and, say, eight 6-inch fish, you're reaching the limits of the housing/number of fish - very loosely set at 1 inch per gallon, because of differing sizes and shapes of the fish one could put in there.


ETA: And yup, you got a pleco! I love those guys!

[Corvus]

Re: All Things Aquaria

That's interesting. I always kinda assumed fish behaved how their species is normally supposed to. I'll tell the pet store people about the conditions I keep my fish in and the type of fish and get a species recommendation, then look at the individual fish to see which seem the most well behaved and healthy. Do you have any specific species recommendations?

The bottom feeder looks exactly like the second picture. The fella is easily half a foot long and has a habit of slithering up the side of the tank at night very quickly. So, it's a pleco then? (I image searched the picture). If it is it seems all my fish prefer low light conditions, which explains why they all move much more often at night and when I have the light off.