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    #31
    Re: Ask a Jew...

    I'm surprised that I never actually really looked at this thread. I'm happy I've found it.

    Originally posted by Acorn View Post
    It is true that there is no concept of Hell in Judaism -- nor is there a concept of Heaven, really.
    This is actually completely false. There is a concept of Hell within Judaism, as well as Heaven. Jewish scholars have written about both concepts exhaustively for hundreds of years.

    Gehenna is what is identifiable as "Hell" within Judaism. The punishments there differ somewhat depending upon which texts you refer to. There are myths which include terrible fires as well as terrible hail and cold. There are legends of stinging scorpions which torment the unfortunate as well as a blinding, impenetrable darkness which parallels the blindness of those immersed within it to their sins.

    This concept of Gehenna differs from the Christian Hell perhaps most significantly in the fact that the punishment of the condemned is not eternal. The maximum amount of time allocated for the punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is 12 months. Even on the Sabbath, the punishment subsides, so the wicked do have a reprieve from their torment.

    But it is true that the concept of Hell is not one that is widely discussed or focused upon, unlike within most forms of Christianity.

    Comment

      #32
      Re: Ask a Jew...

      Originally posted by Torey View Post
      I'm surprised that I never actually really looked at this thread. I'm happy I've found it.



      This is actually completely false. There is a concept of Hell within Judaism, as well as Heaven. Jewish scholars have written about both concepts exhaustively for hundreds of years.

      Gehenna is what is identifiable as "Hell" within Judaism. The punishments there differ somewhat depending upon which texts you refer to. There are myths which include terrible fires as well as terrible hail and cold. There are legends of stinging scorpions which torment the unfortunate as well as a blinding, impenetrable darkness which parallels the blindness of those immersed within it to their sins.

      This concept of Gehenna differs from the Christian Hell perhaps most significantly in the fact that the punishment of the condemned is not eternal. The maximum amount of time allocated for the punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is 12 months. Even on the Sabbath, the punishment subsides, so the wicked do have a reprieve from their torment.

      But it is true that the concept of Hell is not one that is widely discussed or focused upon, unlike within most forms of Christianity.
      That actually beats out the Zoroastrians as well. Their version of hell lasts pretty much till Armageddon at which point Ahura Mazda's endgame involves taking out his enemy, claiming and purifying all souls in hell. The usual interpretation (and the one I prefer) is that he claims them, purifies them and welcomes them into the House of Song. The more uncommon one that was hinted somewhere involves purification via destruction. I now find myself wondering where the hell (pardon the punnage), Christianity got the idea of an eternal hell from. If Jewish hell lasts a year, Zoroastrian lasts only till their God calls for an endgame, where is this eternal one coming from?
      Life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


      Comment

        #33
        Re: Ask a Jew...

        Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
        That actually beats out the Zoroastrians as well. Their version of hell lasts pretty much till Armageddon at which point Ahura Mazda's endgame involves taking out his enemy, claiming and purifying all souls in hell. The usual interpretation (and the one I prefer) is that he claims them, purifies them and welcomes them into the House of Song. The more uncommon one that was hinted somewhere involves purification via destruction. I now find myself wondering where the hell (pardon the punnage), Christianity got the idea of an eternal hell from. If Jewish hell lasts a year, Zoroastrian lasts only till their God calls for an endgame, where is this eternal one coming from?
        The concept of an eternal "Hell" is probably, at least in regards to popularity, attributable most identifiably to Augustine of Hippo. Obviously, one can see the development of the idea over many years with borrowings from many different sources (Dante Alighieri, Plato, Greek mythology, etc.) - but Augustine was the most influential, IMHO.

        Comment

          #34
          Re: Ask a Jew...

          I need to hunt down the Orthodox statement on Augustine again. I like it more almost every time I hear about the man.
          Life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


          Comment

            #35
            Re: Ask a Jew...

            Originally posted by Torey View Post
            This is actually completely false.
            Harsh, but go on...

            There is a concept of Hell within Judaism, as well as Heaven. Jewish scholars have written about both concepts exhaustively for hundreds of years.
            These concepts are not similar in my opinion with the associations people in a majority Christian society think of as being Heaven and Hell, and many Jews believe fervently in reincarnation, which presents a whole different set of ideas on the afterlife and its progression. Regardless, I have attended Jewish institutions of every kind except modern orthodox, and I was raised ultra-orthodox, and neither Heaven nor Hell was mentioned once, although I did hear a lot of theories about reincarnation. People were more likely to talk about whether or not it was kosher to store meat and dairy dishes together that were still warm, which is a comparatively modern dilemma, as well as whether light timers are kosher on shabbos. I would say that the ideas of Heaven and Hell in Judaism are at best marginal to Jewish practice and belief and at worst somewhat esoteric to the majority of Jews. Hundreds of years ago, there was no such thing as many if not most of the rules and restrictions believers are preoccupied with today.

            Gehenna is what is identifiable as "Hell" within Judaism.
            Right, it's identifiable as, but it is to me so much different, and there is argument about the validity of Gehenna since there are arguments about whether the Torah is at all explicit about such an afterlife. If you do believe in Gehenna, typically you do not think of it as a place of torture and despair so much as a place of repentance and reconnection with your faith as well as of mourning (the twelve months thing has been said to reflect Kaddish and mourning cycles), and you also probably believe that everyone but the King Solomons of the world stops there on their way to Gan Eden, if you believe in Gan Eden (a sort of Jewish Heaven).

            But it is true that the concept of Hell is not one that is widely discussed or focused upon, unlike within most forms of Christianity.
            Right. Judaism places a major emphasis on life in the concrete world, and preoccupations with the afterlife (especially, doing things because you're worried about your post-mortem fate) are considered somewhat frivolous from my experience.

            I would say that the majority of the Jewish communities with which I have lived or been involved typically think of the afterlife in a way that I would say more resembles Buddhism than Christianity (though I admittedly know very little about Buddhism), such as theories on reincarnation or the idea that every soul grows closer to God every year at exactly the same rate, becoming in a sense "enlightened"... Odd stuff, Judaism. Tangentially, there are actually a bunch of Jews out there who call themselves "BuJews"... As well as the occasional "Jewitch."

            Comment

              #36
              Re: Ask a Jew...

              Originally posted by Raphaeline View Post
              It would seem she is busy.
              Latest post: 01 Mar 2012, 14:16

              So I fear there will be no chances to get any questions answered any more?

              Comment

                #37
                Re: Ask a Jew...

                LGR was banned years ago for issues that it's not really my place to comment on (partly I dislike reopening mod calls without need and partly the ban was leveled prior to my appointment to the staff). We keep the thread open regardless because other members at various points have been able to answer questions about Judaism and having a pre-existing thread for it is convenient.
                Life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                Comment

                  #38
                  Re: Ask a Jew...

                  So with no Heaven and no Hell like how it is taught in Christianity, what was the structure of the spiritual world to the ancient Jew? Was there an adversary? Were there demons in the sense that Christians mean them today?

                  Comment

                    #39
                    Re: Ask a Jew...

                    Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                    Were there demons in the sense that Christians mean them today?
                    I think there were quite a lot of demons!

                    Even more so than in the Christian faith.

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Re: Ask a Jew...

                      What makes you believe so?

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Re: Ask a Jew...

                        Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                        So with no Heaven and no Hell like how it is taught in Christianity, what was the structure of the spiritual world to the ancient Jew? Was there an adversary? Were there demons in the sense that Christians mean them today?
                        This would depend on the definition of "the ancient Jew" - or rather, to which point in the history of the Jewish people are you referring? I only refer to this query due to the fact that the Jewish people, like nearly every other cultural or religious group, have had a rich and tragic history which has changed and evolved Jewish mythology as the people experienced various other cultures and religions.

                        I suppose what I'm trying to say is that to speculate about what the spiritual world was like for the ancient Jew is rather difficult without directing the question to a specific point in the history of the Jewish people.

                        Originally posted by Larix View Post
                        I think there were quite a lot of demons!

                        Even more so than in the Christian faith.
                        I wouldn't say that there were more, but evil spirits certainly made their appearances.

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Re: Ask a Jew...

                          I heard today that Judaism was reconstructing itself at the same time Christianity was establishing itself. The speaker gave a date around 400CE, so I mean before then. As you might guess, I'm using this information to get a clearer picture of beliefs in place during the time that St Paul was writing his epistles and the gospel writers were writing their accounts of Jesus' life.

                          Comment

                            #43
                            Re: Ask a Jew...

                            Well the thread is pretty old, but I will still ask by curiosity.


                            Do you feel the jewish community as a kind of despite or hate for non jews? Like they are not human being?

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Re: Ask a Jew...

                              Originally posted by mathieu View Post
                              Well the thread is pretty old, but I will still ask by curiosity.
                              The thread may be old.
                              But antisemitism is still with us, I am sorry to say.

                              Comment

                                #45
                                Re: Ask a Jew...

                                Originally posted by mathieu View Post
                                Well the thread is pretty old, but I will still ask by curiosity.


                                Do you feel the jewish community as a kind of despite or hate for non jews? Like they are not human being?
                                Is there a typo here? Do you mean:

                                Do you feel the Jewish community has a kind of spite or hate for non-jews? Like they (ie non-jews) are not human beings?

                                Comment

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