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    #16
    Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

    Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    Sorry but yes there is for definition of marriage is defined under the individual state since there is no federal authority defining it. It's one of the reason this current issue in Kentucky is being watched for the idea that marriage and recognition of marriage is up to the state right now. So the Kentucky issue is that no marriage certificates were being issued. DOMA being found unconstitutional has left it open as to what marriage is and actually to who it is applicable to.

    Can't even say legally a person is being denied a right for there is no federally defining statue of what marriage is. Until there is a federal law that the state law is in opposition to its iffy.
    C'mon, I'm sure that marriage is defined it some parts of Kentucky as between a man and a woman, a man and a goat, a woman and three hogs, a boy and his sister ... etc etc

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      #17
      Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

      Originally posted by Munin-Hugin View Post
      C'mon, I'm sure that marriage is defined it some parts of Kentucky as between a man and a woman, a man and a goat, a woman and three hogs, a boy and his sister ... etc etc
      Truthfully I do not know though I know they fall into the same general joke of can a husband and wife still be brother and sister..
      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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        #18
        Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

        If you consider as Mask said it is a civil rights issue,and denying rights to ANYONE is not allowed....In my mind everything else is just to mess with people and things..
        MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

        all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
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          #19
          Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

          Originally posted by anunitu View Post
          If you consider as Mask said it is a civil rights issue,and denying rights to ANYONE is not allowed....In my mind everything else is just to mess with people and things..
          That's where you start getting back into the argument that marriage is not defined federally as a civil right. There is no stature on a federal level other than DOMA that defined marriage as a civil right. I realize it's stretching things but civil rights get lumped in but when defended it's based upon existing federal statues that define the civil right that is being abused or denied. DOMA existed when the state aspect was ruled in civil rights abuse and violation, once DOMA was found unconstitutional pertaining to defining marriage there was no federal statue to define civil abuse regarding marriage.
          I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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            #20
            Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

            If you wish gay marriage to go away...cause of legal wrangling,it means a LOT of legal time and money just to be able to say you tried to stop something that will not go away.

            Waste of money and time and hardly civil if we so not acknowledge rights for everyone period.
            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




            sigpic

            my new page here,let me know what you think.


            nothing but the shadow of what was

            witchvox
            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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              #21
              Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              Sorry but yes there is for definition of marriage is defined under the individual state since there is no federal authority defining it. It's one of the reason this current issue in Kentucky is being watched for the idea that marriage and recognition of marriage is up to the state right now. So the Kentucky issue is that no marriage certificates were being issued. DOMA being found unconstitutional has left it open as to what marriage is and actually to who it is applicable to.

              Can't even say legally a person is being denied a right for there is no federally defining statue of what marriage is. Until there is a federal law that the state law is in opposition to its iffy.
              It doesn't have to be federally defined for that clause to apply. The line serves a very succinct purpose, states cannot legally create second class citizens. Now if a state says, hey we're getting out of the marriage business then they might get around it but they would need to stop providing marriage licenses to everyone. If they intend to provide licenses then they don't get to designate groups as inelligible without very good reason without risking a challenge under the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th. You're arguing as if the 14th only compels states to honor federally protected rights (which, honestly is what I thought it did a few hours ago) but it also compels the states to design and enforce laws that protect all their citizens equally. Same-Sex bans were determined to be a violation of that directive and struck down.
              Life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


              Comment

                #22
                Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

                Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                If you wish gay marriage to go away...cause of legal wrangling,it means a LOT of legal time and money just to be able to say you tried to stop something that will not go away.

                Waste of money and time and hardly civil if we so not acknowledge rights for everyone period.
                Myself I honestly have no support for nor hatred of same sex marriage. Figure everyone deserves the right to be screwed over in an unhappy relationship and the legal hurdles that come with divorce, etc. I say no support for simply because it is not an issue I care about.

                Yet legally that is how our laws work and can be challenged. So SCOTUS supported the position but the demonstrators didn't follow up to make or push for federal laws to make it the law of the land. In the end who is at fought? Personally I see those who pushed and challenged but really don't appear to have paid attention to what they were striving for and left the field with the clock still running.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                Comment

                  #23
                  Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

                  Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                  Sorry but yes there is for definition of marriage is defined under the individual state since there is no federal authority defining it. It's one of the reason this current issue in Kentucky is being watched for the idea that marriage and recognition of marriage is up to the state right now. So the Kentucky issue is that no marriage certificates were being issued. DOMA being found unconstitutional has left it open as to what marriage is and actually to who it is applicable to.

                  Can't even say legally a person is being denied a right for there is no federally defining statue of what marriage is. Until there is a federal law that the state law is in opposition to its iffy.

                  No, the problem is that if I was married in Hawaii and I move to Georgia, that they have to recognize my marriage, gay or straight, and if they didn't they were denying my equal protection under the law...IE, the amendment that told the Dred Scott case to eff itself.

                  <----knows someone that had a hand in writing the VA federal court decision...has discussed this so much with him...its actually a banned conversation topic--by him, not me!
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                    #24
                    Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

                    Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                    It doesn't have to be federally defined for that clause to apply. The line serves a very succinct purpose, states cannot legally create second class citizens. Now if a state says, hey we're getting out of the marriage business then they might get around it but they would need to stop providing marriage licenses to everyone. If they intend to provide licenses then they don't get to designate groups as inelligible without very good reason without risking a challenge under the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th. You're arguing as if the 14th only compels states to honor federally protected rights (which, honestly is what I thought it did a few hours ago) but it also compels the states to design and enforce laws that protect all their citizens equally. Same-Sex bans were determined to be a violation of that directive and struck down.
                    But the civil rights issues all have a federal statue that they call upon as being violated specifically. Doesn't matter if it is right to vote, right to bear arms, right to education, right to equality based upon gender or sex under right to work, etc. They all have a federal law they can identify as being violated. While DOMA existed there was a federal statue that was being violated. Once that statue was found to be unconstitutional then there really is no federal statue to be violated regarding marriage. In that regard same as the Don't Ask Don't Tell (DADT) statue that guided the military, it wasn't until it was changed legally that the military and government could cite civil rights violations and such. Civil rights were violated under Article 14 only after something was defined at the federal level that could be legally supported as being violated.
                    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                      #25
                      Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

                      Originally posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
                      Do you think Christianity will accept gay marriage now it's legal in the United States?
                      Who cares? It's the law. They don't live in a Christian nation. They live in a democratic nation. Suck it up Christians.
                      Satan is my spirit animal

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

                        Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                        But the civil rights issues all have a federal statue that they call upon as being violated specifically. Doesn't matter if it is right to vote, right to bear arms, right to education, right to equality based upon gender or sex under right to work, etc. They all have a federal law they can identify as being violated. While DOMA existed there was a federal statue that was being violated. Once that statue was found to be unconstitutional then there really is no federal statue to be violated regarding marriage. In that regard same as the Don't Ask Don't Tell (DADT) statue that guided the military, it wasn't until it was changed legally that the military and government could cite civil rights violations and such. Civil rights were violated under Article 14 only after something was defined at the federal level that could be legally supported as being violated.
                        Most civil rights issues can be neatly covered by various Constitutional Amendments or other Federal Laws and then shoved down the throats of unwilling states via the 14th. All told I prefer such a method because it's more clearly defined and predictable. The 14th however can apparently (I'm still getting used to this line) be used in other ways and the Court decided to apply the equal protection requirement instead of the "thou shalt not attempt to deprive US citizens of rights granted to them by the United States" requirement.
                        Life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                        Comment

                          #27
                          Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

                          Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                          Most civil rights issues can be neatly covered by various Constitutional Amendments or other Federal Laws and then shoved down the throats of unwilling states via the 14th. All told I prefer such a method because it's more clearly defined and predictable. The 14th however can apparently (I'm still getting used to this line) be used in other ways and the Court decided to apply the equal protection requirement instead of the "thou shalt not attempt to deprive US citizens of rights granted to them by the United States" requirement.
                          Oh I don't disagree I just find the argument being used to be interesting. Figure if I can understand the method and perhaps madness behind the reasoning then it's easier to follow. A lot though will always depend upon the make up of SCOTUS as to how a law is understood or used. SCOTUS has reversed or changed other rulings applied or arrived at by earlier SCOTUS hearings so its not unheard of.
                          I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                            #28
                            Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

                            Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                            Oh I don't disagree I just find the argument being used to be interesting. Figure if I can understand the method and perhaps madness behind the reasoning then it's easier to follow. A lot though will always depend upon the make up of SCOTUS as to how a law is understood or used. SCOTUS has reversed or changed other rulings applied or arrived at by earlier SCOTUS hearings so its not unheard of.
                            I'll grant that it's an interesting argument and if the 14th had been phrased a little differently, I'd potentially find it legally compelling. As is, I think using Equal Protection to protect same sex marriage will likely have strange side effects in coming years but all sorts of things that courts do have strange side effects. I don't expect these to be much more strange than several other decisions.
                            Life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                            Comment

                              #29
                              Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

                              The ninth amendment assures that the rights not enumerated in the bill of rights will be equally protected as those that are.
                              In practice, marriage is a right. Since it is a right it is protected by the bill of rights by the 9th amendment.
                              The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                              I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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                                #30
                                Re: Christianity And Gay Marriage

                                Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                                Myself I honestly have no support for nor hatred of same sex marriage. Figure everyone deserves the right to be screwed over in an unhappy relationship and the legal hurdles that come with divorce, etc. I say no support for simply because it is not an issue I care about.

                                Yet legally that is how our laws work and can be challenged. So SCOTUS supported the position but the demonstrators didn't follow up to make or push for federal laws to make it the law of the land. In the end who is at fought? Personally I see those who pushed and challenged but really don't appear to have paid attention to what they were striving for and left the field with the clock still running.
                                I don't see the problem from making the law of the land be "two consenting adults" rather than "one consenting man and one consenting woman". We were striving for the right to marry who we loved, but because of DOMA, it had to be fought state to state. Not until then could we push for federal law.
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