Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

[Zathera]

Hello everyone.
I'm currently writing an extended piece of work on [see title.] I've a series of questions that I'd love to hear your opinions on! Please state whether you are ok with having your opinions included in my work or not

Question 1 : Do you think Modern Paganism is an accurate representation of our Ancestors Pagan beliefs?
Yes & why -
No & why -
To some extent & why -
Don't know -

Question 2 : Do you think Archaeology can truly unearth the mysteries of past Pagans?
Yes & why
No & why
To some extent & why -
Don't know -

Question 3 : What is your opinion of using grave goods (items found buried with a person) to work out their Religion and practises?
It is accurate & why -
It is not accurate & why -
it is hard to say & why -
Don't know -

Question 4 : Does connecting to our ancestors matter to you or not?
Yes & why -
No & why -
To some extent & why -
Don't know -

Question 5 : What is your opinion on "Modern Paganism" such as Wicca?

Thanks in advance for taking your time to answer these questions!

[Spragyria]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

1. That depends, paganism in most modern cases is highly eclectic and tends to have some modern beliefs. Some groups are reconstructionist, but even they have their modern practices and beliefs.

2. It's possible, but it will not be easy. Use of artifacts, language, Folklore, and other sourses could certainly be used to reconstruct ancient paganism.

3. While they may provide some detail of things, such as rituals, belief in the afterlife, I think they are better for reconstructing a cultures life.

4. I have a lot of connection with my ancestors. I'm not Scytho-Sarmatian as far as I know, but I like to think of them as spiritual ancestors. I try to connect with they're culture and language. I feel it helps to better understand these people and the Kim of life they lived.

5. I have no problems with 'modern paganism', I feel it is just as valid as other forms of paganism.

Sorry if the answers arn't that great, feel free to use them.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

Hello everyone.
I'm currently writing an extended piece of work on [see title.] I've a series of questions that I'd love to hear your opinions on! Please state whether you are ok with having your opinions included in my work or not

Cool beans Zathera are you goin to publish it anywhere?

Question 1 : Do you think Modern Paganism is an accurate representation of our Ancestors Pagan beliefs?

To some extent & why -

The emotional sense of doing things as they have been done is there but imo thats all that neopaganism for hope for because Modern neopaganism is a reflex of modernity so it can never be representative of anything pre industrial no matter how much it tries. Even beyond that again people are generally more invested in legitimising their own beliefs then examining them criticially to see if what they do is representative of an ancestral belief imo.

Question 2 : Do you think Archaeology can truly unearth the mysteries of past Pagans?

To some extent & why -

Literary interpretation tends to lead the interpretation of archaeology and something as subjective to personal interpretation as lit isnt going to unearth much more then current trends. Again people will interpret things to fit their model and will ignore anything that interferes with it.

Question 3 : What is your opinion of using grave goods (items found buried with a person) to work out their Religion and practises?
t is not accurate & why - I think its an interesting thing to do but Archaeologists arent theologians itd be a conflict of interest. Even knowing as much as we do about christianity we couldnt flesh out a religion from christian burials.

Question 4 : Does connecting to our ancestors matter to you or not?
Yes & why - Yeah but I dont do that through neopaganism. Its nothing to do with trad culture and to me thats the common thread. I dont have the same sense of kinship with someone because theyre a neopagan that i do with the average person into their trads.


Question 5 : What is your opinion on "Modern Paganism" such as Wicca?

Neopaganism in the germanic club tradition (Wicca, Thelema, obod druidry for example) or the stuff thats come around as a product of cultural revivals in post colonial europe (Romuva, Rodnovery for example) are good but I wouldnt really be interested in the rest. Its from a culture too far removed from mine (or too modern) for me to understand the value in it.

[Gardenia]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

Question 1 : Do you think Modern Paganism is an accurate representation of our Ancestors Pagan beliefs?

Depends... Modern paganism covers a huge amount of traditions, with wide ranges in beliefs, cultures they've been influenced by, and the particular times of those cultures. What I mean is, the answer would be different from, say, an Egyptian reconstructionist (which reconstructs from a culture which spanned some 3000 years itself), to something like Wicca which is more modern. I don't think any tradition can be an 100% accurate picture of how pagans practiced in the past - but that can really be said of even continuous religions. Times change for everyone... That said, I think obviously some traditions are able to come closer to this than others, as we do have a lot of historical records for some of these cultures. Other traditions may not come very close, but then, that's also not a goal, so to speak, of every pagan tradition currently out there. In other words, not everyone is setting out to create that accurate representation, and I don't think that's an issue.

Question 2 : Do you think Archaeology can truly unearth the mysteries of past Pagans?

Not all of them, but I think we can gain a lot of information from it. Let's face it, some of that information is just gone forever. Either it was never written down, or the information was destroyed, or distorted, or whatever else. It also depends on what particular culture we're looking at. We're able to know a lot more from about, say, the Greeks than the proto-Indo-Eurpoeans.

Question 3 : What is your opinion of using grave goods (items found buried with a person) to work out their Religion and practises?

I don't really know the answer to that for many cultures, but in ancient Egypt we've been able to gain a lot from this, when viewed in connection with information from other sources. If course, some ancient Egyptians also had themselves buried with religious texts for the afterlife, and so on, which makes it a bit easier.

Question 4 : Does connecting to our ancestors matter to you or not?

Yes. I think we can learn a lot from those who came before us.

Question 5 : What is your opinion on "Modern Paganism" such as Wicca?

My only issues with such modern paths is when they lie about history. In other words, when you meet the Wiccans who insist Wicca is however many thousands of years old, that the triple goddess and the horned god are historical deities worshiped all through Europe by witches for 10,000 years, or whatever else. Of course, that issue ca be found with reconstructionists as well on occasion, but you get the idea. Other than that, I have no real issues with them, and find them to general be as valid as those working to revive older religions, or those somewhere between the two.

[Zathera]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

1. That depends, paganism in most modern cases is highly eclectic and tends to have some modern beliefs. Some groups are reconstructionist, but even they have their modern practices and beliefs.
Spragyria
2. It's possible, but it will not be easy. Use of artifacts, language, Folklore, and other sourses could certainly be used to reconstruct ancient paganism.

3. While they may provide some detail of things, such as rituals, belief in the afterlife, I think they are better for reconstructing a cultures life.

4. I have a lot of connection with my ancestors. I'm not Scytho-Sarmatian as far as I know, but I like to think of them as spiritual ancestors. I try to connect with they're culture and language. I feel it helps to better understand these people and the Kim of life they lived.

5. I have no problems with 'modern paganism', I feel it is just as valid as other forms of paganism.

Sorry if the answers arn't that great, feel free to use them.

Thanks for your opinions! Your answers are good I appreciate it.

- - - Updated - - -

Cool beans Zathera are you goin to publish it anywhere?

JamesByrne
I hope so. If for nothing else than to help increase the public knowledge of Paganism. I'll probably find some way to get it into the public domain, but I'm not sure yet how i'm going to do that! I will almost certainly be leaving my final essay here though, so that anyone interested can read it.

I find your answers interesting to say the least, thank you for taking the time to share them!

- - - Updated - - -
Gardenia
First off - thank you for sharing your opinions.
Secondly - You're off course right to say that Modern Paganism covers a ridiculous number of traditions, but many encompass similar core beliefs, such as a general belief in animism. I suppose my real question is, do you feel that Pagans have accurately recreated said core beliefs?

[Gardenia]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

Secondly - You're off course right to say that Modern Paganism covers a ridiculous number of traditions, but many encompass similar core beliefs, such as a general belief in animism. I suppose my real question is, do you feel that Pagans have accurately recreated said core beliefs?

I don't believe that there really are such core beliefs that are common to all, or even the majority of pagans. There are plenty of pagans who don't incorporate animism into their practice, for example, but would still be under the pagan umbrella. There's also the fact that if we were to take something like animism, that it might be very differently shown from one ancient culture to another, so I think we'd have to get more specific when looking to see how modern traditions have recreated, if at all. I think this is the sort of question where you'd have to actually look at the individual traditions, or at least something somewhat more narrow (such as reconstructionists vs. more modern traditions), to really get an answer with any meaning.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

I don't believe that there really are such core beliefs that are common to all, or even the majority of pagans. There are plenty of pagans who don't incorporate animism into their practice, for example, but would still be under the pagan umbrella. There's also the fact that if we were to take something like animism, that it might be very differently shown from one ancient culture to another, so I think we'd have to get more specific when looking to see how modern traditions have recreated, if at all. I think this is the sort of question where you'd have to actually look at the individual traditions, or at least something somewhat more narrow (such as reconstructionists vs. more modern traditions), to really get an answer with any meaning.

Id disagree, imo people like that wouldnt be under the umbrella New Age would be their limit until they become critically self aware and make the serious effort towards self governance.

The reason Id say that is the obvious contradiction of an emotional sense that things are being done as they have been in the past (the communal idea of the ancestors) while having a pure sense of individualism is an obvious and almost pure manifestation of Emile Durkheims 'Anomie'. Like the more common expression of anomie where people say they are interested in their heritage but claim being 1/2 this or a 1/4 that makes them a member of a culture without the need for any proper understanding of the culture is not a genuine interest, people (most common among those following ethnically flavoured neopaganism) claiming an ancestral connection who take neopaganism as their individual expression of spirituality are not geninely approaching spirituality. They may feel they are genuine and think they are serious about their studies but they are just unaware they are limited to satisfying a psychological urge. They are driven to find an emotional sense of rootedness, of rules and order that their culture doesnt give them but is present in all traditional cultures. If they were critically aware there would be purer ways of satisfying that urge then neopaganism. Its not suited to it thats why the 1/4 this and that method of finding an emotional sense of roots is more common. The contradiciton of combining that with individualism would never exist in their lives.

IMO theyd be better off approaching things through thelema if they have to have neopaganism, that alteast has a focus on breaking the unconscious restricting mind and freeing the conscious will. Without it theyre just doomed to be puppets of psychological forces they are unware of and have no control over

[Gardenia]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

Id disagree, imo people like that wouldnt be under the umbrella New Age would be their limit until they become critically self aware and make the serious effort towards self governance.

To be clear, I am not including what's generally considered to be new age under the pagan umbrella. Also, people like what? People who aren't animists? I did not describe a certain type of people in my post beyond that idea, but rather am saying that since there are so many different pagan traditions, with different sources and beliefs, that it would be better to look from group to group for an answer to that question. Like I said, no tradition is going to be an 100% accurate recreation of the past, we simply can't do that, and frankly I've never met a pagan who was even trying to do that. However, someone like a Greek recon is likely going to be a closer picture than someone like a Wiccan, since Wicca is not meant to be any sort of accurate recreation in the first place.
However, if you're telling me that there are core beliefs that not only unite all modern pagans, but manifested in the same ways, had the same meanings, across all ancient pagan cultures... Well. I'd love to see that list.

Other than that, I'm going to be honest, I have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with the point I am making.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

Cesara [Sorry GARDINEA!] have you been involved in many group rituals? Using them as an example when youre in a group ritual what happens within the circle is called a subjective reality, because to observers outside the circle what the group percieves to be happening is not apparant. Its not objectively real. IMO the same is true for some modern neopagans. Specifically the ones you would say cause issues with the OP's theory.

IMO they would believe they are interested in spirituality but they are just trying to get rid of that sense of 'anomie'. I would say its kind of like someone who is lonely is convinced they are looking for love but all theyre doing is trying to end their lonelyness and often have no idea what the emotional relationship really requires.

To me the contradiction of doing things as the communally shared 'ancestors' did them while also doing things their own way is a big neon sign saying 'anomie' because it might be percieved as the steriotypical traits of 'anomie'. If that is the driving force for them while they might consider that they are genuinely interested in neopagan spirituality what they are actually doing is acting out a psychological play with neopaganism is the stage facilitating the show. It might not be an interest in spirituality at all or atleast that interest may be eclipsed by the need to validate the psychological urge/end the sense of 'anomie'. Only if they move beyond that stage and become critically self aware maybe through travel, therapy or by the persuit of self governance and super-knowledge, then Id say they are persuing spirituality... but at that point the contradiciton would become apparant, as the subjective reality is apparant to the observer outside the ritual circle and theyd be forced to choose one or the other or to abandon the two in favour of a third choice that seems more appealing.

The specifics of wether someone likes animism or not isnt my point, my point is neopaganism has a common origin and because of that it has common traits thats why we are able to use an umbrella term. The people that complicate the term who dont share the traits might not share them for a reason. They arent neopagans.

[Zathera]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

Edit: Shadowing what James said

I would suggest that there are atleast some core beliefs that MOST Pagans believe or follow. Examples as follows: Magick, spirits/entities, Reverance of nature, some form of deity/figure for reverance, Ritual practise.

By all means not ALL Pagans believe in these things, nor practise them. But I would suggest that atleast a significant enough proportion does. Otherwise, why truly even call ourselves Pagans? It is a term for identification, so there MUST be commonalities between us all, unless most of us have simply given ourselves the wrong label.

[Gardenia]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

I would suggest that there are atleast some core beliefs that MOST Pagans believe or follow. Examples as follows: Magick, spirits/entities, Reverance of nature, some form of deity/figure for reverance, Ritual practise.

Well, again, even if you want to look at a particular aspect, not all ancient pagan cultures would have viewed it or practiced it the same way. Is it enough to say that someone who practices magic is accurately recreating an ancient belief, even if they may be following one of the more modern systems of magic? Or, on the issue of deities, you've got all sorts of modern ideas from various pagan (or non-pagan) sources, so you see hard polytheists, soft polytheists, pantheists, people who believe more in inner archetype style deities, and so on (and yes, even some atheistic pagans). Is it enough to say some form of belief is enough? The same can be said of ritual practice. Is a Wiccan ritual an accurate recreation of an ancient practice? No, not really. However, a group of Egyptian recons following closely to an old temple ritual structure would be a closer picture, if not entirely accurate either.

So... I guess it depends a lot on what one means by "accurately recreating" ancient pagan beliefs. If you only mean in a truly vague sense, well, then sure - but I think one needs to dig deeper than that to get an answer with any real meaning. Unless we're going with the vaguest grouping of ideas, it's going to vary a lot from individual to individual, tradition to tradition. You're going to find people who fall all along the spectrum, for various reasons, and to be clear I don't think that necessarily makes one group better or worse than another. They're just going about things in different ways.

[Juniper]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

I would like to point out here, that the OP asked for opinions to specific questions. Opinions. If you want to debate someone's opinion, make a new thread in the proper location.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

Or, given part of the subject under debate, revive a defining Paganism thread...

Shouldn't take too long to track down a Star Wars 'NO' montage...

[Yazichestvo]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

Question 1 : Do you think Modern Paganism is an accurate representation of our Ancestors Pagan beliefs?

Certainly, reconstructionist groups are fairly close to the mark. Obviously, we don't all own cattle to sacrifice, or grow crops anymore. As someone has pointed out though, even modern religions have changed with the times. If you take that into account, I don't think reconstructionist paganism is that different from what ancient paganism would have eventually become, had it survived to be modernized. The alterations are only those that would necessary for a less primitive society. I think that's true even for non-recon branches of paganism, like ecclecticism and Wicca. Monism and syncretism became fairly popular in Hellenistic and Roman times, so there is some historical precedent for both. I don't think most branches of neopaganism would be so foreign to the ancients.

Question 2 : Do you think Archaeology can truly unearth the mysteries of past Pagans?

For literate cultures, I think it already has to some degree. However, I have little hope that archaeology will unveil anything meaningful about the Slavic tradition. At best, I believe archaeology can corroborate what we have learned from written sources. Take for instance the Zbruch idol, found in modern day Ukraine. If we didn't already know about the deity it represented (Svantevit), we would have no clue how to interpret it.

Question 3 : What is your opinion of using grave goods (items found buried with a person) to work out their Religion and practises?

Finding out what people were buried with can tell you a bit about how people lived, but I don't think it will tell you much about their religious beliefs, beyond the fact that they believed in some sort of afterlife.

Question 1 : Do you think Modern Paganism is an accurate representation of our Ancestors Pagan beliefs?

Certainly, reconstructionist groups are fairly close to the mark. Obviously, we don't all own cattle to sacrifice, or grow crops anymore. As someone has pointed out though, even modern religions have changed with the times. If you take that into account, I don't think reconstructionist paganism is that different from what ancient paganism would have eventually become, had it survived to be modernized. The alterations are only those that would necessary for a less primitive society. I think that's true even for non-recon branches of paganism, like ecclecticism and Wicca. Monism and syncretism became fairly popular in Hellenistic and Roman times, so there is some historical precedent for both. I don't think most branches of neopaganism would be so foreign to the ancients.

Question 2 : Do you think Archaeology can truly unearth the mysteries of past Pagans?

For literate cultures, I think it already has to some degree. However, I have little hope that archaeology will unveil anything meaningful about the Slavic tradition. At best, I believe archaeology can corroborate what we have learned from written sources. Take for instance the Zbruch idol, found in modern day Ukraine. If we didn't already know about the deity it represented (Svantevit), we would have no clue how to interpret it.

[QUOTE=Zathera;72817]
Question 4 : Does connecting to our ancestors matter to you or not?

Question 1 : Do you think Modern Paganism is an accurate representation of our Ancestors Pagan beliefs?

Certainly, reconstructionist groups are fairly close to the mark. Obviously, we don't all own cattle to sacrifice, or grow crops anymore. As someone has pointed out though, even modern religions have changed with the times. If you take that into account, I don't think reconstructionist paganism is that different from what ancient paganism would have eventually become, had it survived to be modernized. The alterations are only those that would necessary for a less primitive society. I'm torn when it comes to non-recon branches of paganism, like ecclecticism and Wicca. Monism and syncretism became fairly popular in Hellenistic and Roman times, so there is some historical precedent for both. Still, sometimes they clearly do not try to maintain the spirit of the past.

Question 2 : Do you think Archaeology can truly unearth the mysteries of past Pagans?

For literate cultures, I think it already has to some degree. However, I have little hope that archaeology will unveil anything meaningful about the Slavic tradition. At best, I believe archaeology can corroborate what we have learned from written sources. Take for instance the Zbruch idol, found in modern day Ukraine. If we didn't already know about the deity it represented (Svantevit), we would have no clue how to interpret it.

Question 3 : What is your opinion of using grave goods (items found buried with a person) to work out their Religion and practises?

Finding out what people were buried with can tell you a bit about how people lived, but I don't think it will tell you much about their religious beliefs, beyond the fact that they believed in some sort of afterlife.
[QUOTE=Zathera;72817]

Question 4 : Does connecting to our ancestors matter to you or not?

It does. I think it is at least part of the reason that I found the path I did. Over thousands of years, our ancestors suffered, and underwent great challenges so that their descendants could survive up to today. In that time, they forged ties with their Gods, and accumulated knowledge of the divine, as far as they could understand it. Obviously, my Eastern European ancestors are closer family, but in reality, all early humans were our ancestors- so understanding what life was like for them is important to me.

Question 5 : What is your opinion on "Modern Paganism" such as Wicca?

Having dabbled in Wicca myself, I think it often works, in a spiritual, and maybe even magical sense. These days though, I shy from it. If I practiced like the Wiccans and other neo-pagans did, I would be concerned that the monistic, pantheistic, and duotheistic modifications on the original polytheistic view of deities might occasionally interfere with my practice. I would worry about the confusion it might cause certain deities.

[Zathera]

Re: Is Modern Paganism reflective of past Paganism? - Your opinions

Thanks yazichestvo, I find your opinions very interesting, especially your replies to question 4 and 5. I tend to agree with your points