A Question On Animals In Druidry

[thalassa]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

JSTOR has a free account that lets you "check out" up to 10 articles a month.

[Willow]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I have been spending some time looking today and am surprised at how much new material is out there but how little of the original text remain. It was much easier to get my hand on these things when I had the user name and password of a history professor, now I am finding they are requiring you to be somehow in the business. It really gets my conspiracy side up and running. I will do what I can to get the information but this is going to take some time.

I know what you mean. When my username expired in my university's database I lost access to a lot of things that I took for granted for those years. But considering those articles are pay-per-read and universities pay for them to be accessible, it makes sense.

Still, it makes me want to go after a grad program just for the library access again. :P

[SonoftheWaters]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I'm actually genuinely curious about these lost references. Druidry and Celtic history isn't one of my strong suits, but I'd say it's a bit more than a passing interest too. If you ever find some of those sources, I'd be interested in adding a few to my reading list.

I have been spending some time looking today and am surprised at how much new material is out there but how little of the original text remain. It was much easier to get my hand on these things when I had the user name and password of a history professor, now I am finding they are requiring you to be somehow in the business. It really gets my conspiracy side up and running. I will do what I can to get the information but this is going to take some time.

[Willow]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I'm actually genuinely curious about these lost references. Druidry and Celtic history isn't one of my strong suits, but I'd say it's a bit more than a passing interest too. If you ever find some of those sources, I'd be interested in adding a few to my reading list.

[sionnach]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

The division between nature animals and people seems to have less of a division in Celtic beliefs that the Christian beliefs that followed. The gods and goddesses dwelt within nature and their stories talk of transformation of people and deities into animals. The supernatural was connected with the natural and we are told the druids called on the natural forces to defend the tribe or the land. The stand apposed to the Christian where the supernatural/ god is outside of the natural and one must call on god to intervene and god is divine as apposed to the land forms, rivers, springs as being divine places. The druids did not need to ask the gods for the magic but rather called on nature to carry out the magic. Thus I would think that the pre-Christians showed respect of the qualities that an animal would have. They seemed to have respect in particular to birds including ravens and waterfowl, boars, bears, dogs/wolves, deer/stags and others. Stories would include for instance a stag being able to guide a hero into the sidhe/otherworld. Again it is pointed out that these are the images left to us from a later age and not from the time when there was only the pre-Christian religion. It becomes a personal decision whether one believes or not that these are correct.

[MaskedOne]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

Ouch, it takes talent to be that bad.

[thalassa]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I never hear of that book in a good light but I've never taken the time to really investigate. Is it particularly worse than normal Llewellyn published books?

Its fairly terrible as a Druidic or Celtic resource. Llewellyn has a few decent titles, but this one is worse than even their normal mediocre dross.

[SonoftheWaters]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I never hear of that book in a good light but I've never taken the time to really investigate. Is it particularly worse than normal Llewellyn published books?

I read about 3 chapters years and years ago and if I remember correctly I put it down after several kabalah style references. Though I can not stand in judgement of it because I never bothered finishing it.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I never hear of that book in a good light but I've never taken the time to really investigate. Is it particularly worse than normal Llewellyn published books?

It's been a long time since I read it but the best comparison I've heard of is it is the Silver Ravenwolf of Druidry coupled to Edain McCoy and D. J. Conway all rolled into one book. What's bad is I recall there is also a companion book to it but it's been so long now I don't even recall its title. Granted my own biases towards it but if I could ever get my money back or time back it would be for that book and reading it.

[MaskedOne]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I vaguely recall there is a part in the book 21 LESSONS OF MERLIN that touched upon supposed animal influences on the Druid beliefs. That said it's not a book i'd recommend at all even if there are supposed to be some deeply buried nuggets of wisdom in it.

Personally I'd think any usage of animal symbology would be more due to social and culture than connected specifically to the Druids. Probably similar to the notion of clan / tribe totems or heralds in actual usage. Perhaps, and this is all speculation on my part, certain groups within a part of society such as wolf and bear clans are found in certain Native American nations or the beserker groups of the Wolf and Bear in Nordic beliefs.

The idea of totems, spirit animals, guides, etc has really taken hold upon western paganism in my opinion as more and more "Noble Savage" and Native American beliefs were borrowed to make things more enticing. Well more enticing and used as filler to make books have more things to offer vice another author's books until it became an accepted aspect of all 101 books.

I never hear of that book in a good light but I've never taken the time to really investigate. Is it particularly worse than normal Llewellyn published books?

[monsno_leedra]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I vaguely recall there is a part in the book 21 LESSONS OF MERLIN that touched upon supposed animal influences on the Druid beliefs. That said it's not a book i'd recommend at all even if there are supposed to be some deeply buried nuggets of wisdom in it.

Personally I'd think any usage of animal symbology would be more due to social and culture than connected specifically to the Druids. Probably similar to the notion of clan / tribe totems or heralds in actual usage. Perhaps, and this is all speculation on my part, certain groups within a part of society such as wolf and bear clans are found in certain Native American nations or the beserker groups of the Wolf and Bear in Nordic beliefs.

The idea of totems, spirit animals, guides, etc has really taken hold upon western paganism in my opinion as more and more "Noble Savage" and Native American beliefs were borrowed to make things more enticing. Well more enticing and used as filler to make books have more things to offer vice another author's books until it became an accepted aspect of all 101 books.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I truly think that much of the animal/druid connection has more to do with an adaptation of popular culture into lore than with actual historical practice. The first connection between druids and animal forms I'd ever heard of was from the original (back in the 70s) Dungeons and Dragons. It had stuck as a staple and from there had moved into things like Warcraft. Outside of there, though, I had only seen references to druids and animals as portents, divinations, and characteristics to be harnessed. Writings by fiction authors who had done research into it, as well as "guides" found in the historical or New Age sections of bookstores tend to downplay or not even mention that. Instead, there is the focus on them as simply being the priesthood of the time and area, sometimes with magical abilities and sometimes not.

[Azvanna]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I'm really hoping to get answers from reconstructionists here. I was looking up the truth behind the whole spirit animal thing that occasionally pop-ups when discussing new-age or neo-pagan spirituality and I came upon this link...

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AvGgAr5qbKu1xzUVSVwIbKsjzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20110711131051AAY6Ow8

Now aside from Indigenous people being outraged (justifiably so) about continuing misconceptions related their spiritual traditions there was one post that was of particular interest. Foedadea/Boo made a post that addressed a supposed practices of ancient Druids. Five posts down is where you'll find it. Is there any truth to this according to what reliable sources are available, or is this a new interpretation?

I was looking into Druidry for a year and a bit and still am casually. I haven't yet come across anything that says ancient Celts identified themselves with an animal. I'm inclined to agree with the poster's later opinion when s/he states animals were symbols of a set of characteristics.

[SonoftheWaters]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

No problem, I think possibly the best thing is to start afresh and I am quite happy to do this. And I do realise that sometimes people get off onto the wrong foot with each other, so let's put it behind us and start again.

You introduced the idea of the Sons of Mil back at post No. 6 and the whole thing became rather foggy from thereon. So since we've probably gone a bit off course here from the original post about animals in druidry, if you want to discuss the Sons of Mil it could be a good idea to start a new thread maybe? That leaves all the old baggage behind.

I think my main problem is the way myth can be used to back up a theory - don't have a problem with it per se, as long as it's clear what you're doing. Once that's clear it's a good idea in a discussion like this to progress slowly, making sure everything is as clear as possible before moving onwards.

So please, start a thread on the sons of Mil and druidry if you wish and I am happy to take part.

That was actually what I was thinking myself since you were not the only one that questioned the Son of Mil. It seems the different stages of Celtic history are going to be a good topic but something that would have to be taken one step at a time.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: A Question On Animals In Druidry

I do apologize for using the term Mileson and not Son of Mil, this was out of habit and not intended to miss lead. I will leave it at that so we can get back on topic.

- - - Updated - - -

Tylluan: for clarification: So what are you questioning, specifically? Tomorrow is my day off, I can do some minor research and give you references? Please lets keep it on topic, I have other post on the general pre-Christian thread if its is question outside the topic of Animals in Druidry.

No problem, I think possibly the best thing is to start afresh and I am quite happy to do this. And I do realise that sometimes people get off onto the wrong foot with each other, so let's put it behind us and start again.

You introduced the idea of the Sons of Mil back at post No. 6 and the whole thing became rather foggy from thereon. So since we've probably gone a bit off course here from the original post about animals in druidry, if you want to discuss the Sons of Mil it could be a good idea to start a new thread maybe? That leaves all the old baggage behind.

I think my main problem is the way myth can be used to back up a theory - don't have a problem with it per se, as long as it's clear what you're doing. Once that's clear it's a good idea in a discussion like this to progress slowly, making sure everything is as clear as possible before moving onwards.

So please, start a thread on the sons of Mil and druidry if you wish and I am happy to take part.