What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

It's an interesting idea, sionnach. I think there is probably quite a bit of truth in it too, since places we think of as Germanic, are often also thought of as Celtic - the La Tene culture being a good example. And that's without taking into account any theories of an indo-european link between them.

One of the most interesting things about the Anglo-Saxon conversion is that it was never totally complete. There was a lot of mind-changing. And in the early Christian missionary period, it was a lot more anti-heathen than in the later period. Which is why prominent church leaders blamed the much later Viking invasions on clergy listening to heroic heathen sagas (I kid you not!)

I too, believe that Hreda and Eostre were regarded as goddesses, and see no real reason to doubt Bede's account of them. He would have known older monks who would certainly have known about them, and since he Bede is regarded as accurate for many other things, it seems strange to single out these two goddesses and say he made them up. When we think about it it would have been easier for him to have disregarded them altogether.

[sionnach]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

How much different were the Saxon's from the Celtic people of the British Isles? I ask this in reference to a book I read 'Pagan Goddesses in the Early Germanic World' by Philip Shaw. The recent genetic profile of Great Britain showed how the Saxons blended with the Celtic population whereas Roman and later Viking did not remain as a significant population. In his book he looks at the goddesses Eostre and Hreda using linguistic research. In his conclusions he warns of pan-Germanism in worship of the gods and goddesses. His research pointed towards the tribal, the local, and perhaps the familial/personal worship of deities. He argues that the notion of common religious patters across the entire northern Europe may have been similar but the gods and goddesses were more local in nature. There may have been less differential between what has often been seen as a division of the Celtic an Germanic beliefs.
What I remember from reading in the past on the Conversion of the Saxons to Christianity was that one of the greatest issues in the conversion was the concern of abandoning their ancestors or the ways of their ancestors. In Germany Charlemagne murdered thousands of Saxons because they did not want to abandon their ancestors n favor of the new religions. I also remember that their was less concern about the names of Gods and Goddesses that there was about other pagan beliefs and rituals which is why the days of the week in England were named after Germanic gods and goddesses. Ancestor worship/respect was probably important in both groups and there were enough similarities for the blending of the two cultures. There seems to have been less force used in the Christian transformation of the Irish which resulted in the translation of many more of the pagan beliefs, rituals and important places into the local Christian practice. At least that is what I have read from some sources. Thus Brigid is translated to St. Brigid.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

I know there are different listings in Wales, but did you happen to see the Horizon, 'First Britons' on BBC2 earlier (or last night actually, as it's gone 3:30 here now)? It was fascinating. I was really surprised to see just how much we can learn about a society, who left so little behind. One thing that peaked my interest was that they said farming spread (and quite rapidly too), from the Middle East into what is now Europe, and eventually England. If societies were sharing such sophisticated information as how to farm, then it makes me all the more convinced that religious practices could have been shared too. The Celts may have been widely spread about, but I don't think they lived in bubbles, suspicious and fearful of their neighbours. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been so quick to adopt the technologies used by other tribes. It all makes me less quick to accept that clues left by, say, people in Wales, have no relation to the lives of those in Northumberland around the same time. Sure, it's not concrete evidence either, but, for lack of anything better, I wouldn't be too quick to disregard it now.

Unfortunately I missed the program, but I have alwaysx been interested in the very ancient past - hence my book Sacred Shadows, which tries to uncover spirituality from the Ice Age. It was mind blowing research! I also did a podcast on Doggerland (which I think was covered in the same program). You can find it here : http://tylluanpenry.podbean.com/e/lo...sunken-cities/

The missing or magical islands around Britain are another fascination of mine, particular since a distant family member was actually named after one of them!

[Jembru]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

I agree. As a great fan of the Anglo-Saxon period of history, I think it's quite wrong to think that's all there ever was. There were huge chunks of the country where they really never had a foothold (Wales, for example) and there was massive interaction in various ways between them and the others. Nor were the rest of the country entirely Celtic. There were a number of different races, some from the Roman occupation (and I don't mean they were Roman. There is epigraphic evidence of many different races who came over as traders, soldiers, slaves etc.)

And the Anglo-Saxons didn't actually want to wipe out everyone. There is good evidence of fusion between the various cultures and also that they managed to co-exist in many areas. The problem is with some of the headline grabbing early writers, who portrayed them entirely as savages. Even now I find myself grinding my teeth when I read about 'barbarian Anglo-Saxons' or 'civilised Romans.' It was never that simple.

Though - when asked - Mr Penry claims to be Cheddar Man.

I know there are different listings in Wales, but did you happen to see the Horizon, 'First Britons' on BBC2 earlier (or last night actually, as it's gone 3:30 here now)? It was fascinating. I was really surprised to see just how much we can learn about a society, who left so little behind. One thing that peaked my interest was that they said farming spread (and quite rapidly too), from the Middle East into what is now Europe, and eventually England. If societies were sharing such sophisticated information as how to farm, then it makes me all the more convinced that religious practices could have been shared too. The Celts may have been widely spread about, but I don't think they lived in bubbles, suspicious and fearful of their neighbours. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been so quick to adopt the technologies used by other tribes. It all makes me less quick to accept that clues left by, say, people in Wales, have no relation to the lives of those in Northumberland around the same time. Sure, it's not concrete evidence either, but, for lack of anything better, I wouldn't be too quick to disregard it now.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

I saw a really cool documentary on what we've learnt about our (the English and our neighbours), heritage from the DNA evidence. I don't remember the name, but I posted about it at the time in the 'what I learnt today' thread.. to a decidedly underwhelmed reception... So it's nice to see I'm not the only person who was surprised, or bothered. I had been fed the 'we're Anglo-saxons' tripe in school, so I was really interested to learn the typical Englishman is around 70% Celt!

I agree. As a great fan of the Anglo-Saxon period of history, I think it's quite wrong to think that's all there ever was. There were huge chunks of the country where they really never had a foothold (Wales, for example) and there was massive interaction in various ways between them and the others. Nor were the rest of the country entirely Celtic. There were a number of different races, some from the Roman occupation (and I don't mean they were Roman. There is epigraphic evidence of many different races who came over as traders, soldiers, slaves etc.)

And the Anglo-Saxons didn't actually want to wipe out everyone. There is good evidence of fusion between the various cultures and also that they managed to co-exist in many areas. The problem is with some of the headline grabbing early writers, who portrayed them entirely as savages. Even now I find myself grinding my teeth when I read about 'barbarian Anglo-Saxons' or 'civilised Romans.' It was never that simple.

Though - when asked - Mr Penry claims to be Cheddar Man.

[Jembru]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

Interesting that they DNA shows Spain as a point of origin. In the 5th century the Greek historian Herodotus said the Celts were "Those who lived beyond the pillars of Hercules" (Spain) and had their rising was from Danube. Wonder how much the DNA from the Danube area matches that of the Isles.

I saw a really cool documentary on what we've learnt about our (the English and our neighbours), heritage from the DNA evidence. I don't remember the name, but I posted about it at the time in the 'what I learnt today' thread.. to a decidedly underwhelmed reception... So it's nice to see I'm not the only person who was surprised, or bothered. I had been fed the 'we're Anglo-saxons' tripe in school, so I was really interested to learn the typical Englishman is around 70% Celt!

[SonoftheWaters]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

DNA indicates that the first settlers of the British Isles were Basque...there are a couple of studies for this, but the best compilation of data and historical/archaeological/linguistic info that I've found is the book Britain Begins, which I mentioned *somewhere* in this thread or another one.

That is a very tempting idea given the Irish tales of the milesians and their origin from the Iberian peninsula but I do not think we can conclude this any more that anything else about the Celts. I remember S. Oppenheimer discussing that there is a very high percentage of the R1b haplotypes in common with the Irish, welsh, and Basque people but there are sub types that are not. I have read recently an alternative view on the genetics of R1b in Europe with the people carrying this haplotype migrating from around the alps and then down to Spain and over to Britain and Ireland. The other possibilities on why they share many of the same genetic markers may have been social (closer clan affiliation/language/other social aspects) or due to isolation of geographic barriers after the spread of the Rib haplotypes had established in the area. There is a recent survey "People of the British Isles" printed in nature that did show an interesting division of Wales into two groups by north and south suggesting two separate migrations to Wales and the influence of the Anglo/Saxon genetics compare to little of the Roman or Viking genetic influence.


..

Interesting that they DNA shows Spain as a point of origin. In the 5th century the Greek historian Herodotus said the Celts were "Those who lived beyond the pillars of Hercules" (Spain) and had their rising was from Danube. Wonder how much the DNA from the Danube area matches that of the Isles.

[sionnach]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

DNA indicates that the first settlers of the British Isles were Basque...there are a couple of studies for this, but the best compilation of data and historical/archaeological/linguistic info that I've found is the book Britain Begins, which I mentioned *somewhere* in this thread or another one.

That is a very tempting idea given the Irish tales of the milesians and their origin from the Iberian peninsula but I do not think we can conclude this any more that anything else about the Celts. I remember S. Oppenheimer discussing that there is a very high percentage of the R1b haplotypes in common with the Irish, welsh, and Basque people but there are sub types that are not. I have read recently an alternative view on the genetics of R1b in Europe with the people carrying this haplotype migrating from around the alps and then down to Spain and over to Britain and Ireland. The other possibilities on why they share many of the same genetic markers may have been social (closer clan affiliation/language/other social aspects) or due to isolation of geographic barriers after the spread of the Rib haplotypes had established in the area. There is a recent survey "People of the British Isles" printed in nature that did show an interesting division of Wales into two groups by north and south suggesting two separate migrations to Wales and the influence of the Anglo/Saxon genetics compare to little of the Roman or Viking genetic influence.

..

[thalassa]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

DNA indicates that the first settlers of the British Isles were Basque...there are a couple of studies for this, but the best compilation of data and historical/archaeological/linguistic info that I've found is the book Britain Begins, which I mentioned *somewhere* in this thread or another one.

[SonoftheWaters]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

There are periods of time where patterns seen in archeology change as in the case of the stone circles and wooden circles. These megalithic structures occurred through a period of time then stopped. But this does not tell us if there was a change or people or what factors changed the behavior. There are the changes in burial patterns from complex structures such as those in Newgrange which were connected with sun position, in this case with the winter solstice. The building of the long barrows some of which had celestial orientations while some did not. Causewayed enclosures also had a time period before falling out of favor. These changes have tried to be aligned with our Notion of stone age, bronze age, and iron age but my understanding is that there is a great deal of overlap. Even the arrival of the Celts seems very unclear. There are opinions I have read that there were multiple successive immigrations and blending of cultures making time lines very difficult to pinpoint. Now trying to match the mythological history of Ireland to the archeological history seems impossible. I did read some books from the past trying to equate the fomorians with the invaders from the Norse lands ( no the Vikings for they come much later) and there are some interesting amber votive depositions along a line which peoples from the Scandinavian lands could have traveled but again the book of invasion I still believe must be seen as a mythological cycle and not a precise historical cycle and blended different myths of different tribes together.

True no matter how hard we try we will never really know unless someone invents a time machine. What we can do is take the folklore, myths and legends and apply them to the archaeological findings and use these to get as close to the truth as we can.

[sionnach]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

There are periods of time where patterns seen in archeology change as in the case of the stone circles and wooden circles. These megalithic structures occurred through a period of time then stopped. But this does not tell us if there was a change or people or what factors changed the behavior. There are the changes in burial patterns from complex structures such as those in Newgrange which were connected with sun position, in this case with the winter solstice. The building of the long barrows some of which had celestial orientations while some did not. Causewayed enclosures also had a time period before falling out of favor. These changes have tried to be aligned with our Notion of stone age, bronze age, and iron age but my understanding is that there is a great deal of overlap. Even the arrival of the Celts seems very unclear. There are opinions I have read that there were multiple successive immigrations and blending of cultures making time lines very difficult to pinpoint. Now trying to match the mythological history of Ireland to the archeological history seems impossible. I did read some books from the past trying to equate the fomorians with the invaders from the Norse lands ( no the Vikings for they come much later) and there are some interesting amber votive depositions along a line which peoples from the Scandinavian lands could have traveled but again the book of invasion I still believe must be seen as a mythological cycle and not a precise historical cycle and blended different myths of different tribes together.

[SonoftheWaters]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

Would you help us all out here please with a few dates for these 'Celtic faith periods'?

Woo now that is a hard question, I am sure others would have their own ideas.

By myth the Dannan lived hundreds if not thousands of years. Going by myths not hard facts, I would put the Son of Mil first appearance somewhere around 1200-1500BCE, the Dannan first appearance would be somewhere around the 8,000-12,000 BCE, the main reason for this is because many of the description of Fir Bog remind me of Neanderthal, the Fir Bog would be lost in time.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

I agree with this 100%, I believe there are at the very least three Celtic faith periods for Druids and that is just for the isles (Ireland, Scotland, Anglo, Saxon, Welsh, Cornish) as well as regional difference but the regional difference would be more like diaglect difference, an example of this would be Danu-Don variance even though by most evidence they are the same deity.

The three time frames are the Son of Mil, the Dannan and the Fir Bolg (Fir Bholg being in the time frame of the rule of the giants though there are some vague referrence to druids in that time this very will could be nothing more then implacation then truth, though I do believe that at least the predecessor of druidism did exist.

Would you help us all out here please with a few dates for these 'Celtic faith periods'?

[anunitu]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

And I am Eclectic in my approach to spiritual things....but then I am just kind of free and easy in my approach to everything..Free your mind,and your ass will follow...from Funkadelic

[SonoftheWaters]

Re: What do we know about Celtic pre-Christian religion?

You know I am not at all into this discussion,but you peeps kinda remind me just why I detached myself from Christian belief,it was the absolute dogma that had no place for wiggle room ever...

If I read this and did not read the names of the deity's,I might mistake it for an argument on dogmatic concerns in a christian group.

LOL, considering that we are basically talking dogma I can see that. Pre-Christian Celtic faith covers a ton of ground and no clear paths. So everyone has a tendency to add their own personal flare to it.