Samhain

[Louisvillian]

Re: Samhain

Hi there!
So tonight it's Samhain if I'm correct.
My question is, who of you celebrates Samhain and how do you do that?

I celebrated it as a solemn day of remembering the souls of the departed. A time when the veil is thin between our world and the Otherworld or Underworld. I made offerings to psychopomps, chthonic, and ancestral gods to pray for the safe comportment of my grandmother's soul to the halls of Hades, and a hope for a gentle afterlife for her.

The day before--Halloween--is rather different. I celebrated it with merriment and entertainment, indulgences of a sort. That's the purpose of the day, after all--confronting the power of death with humour, ridicule, and fun. Games and decoration and candy, guising and roleplaying. Yeah, a bit of the commercialised Halloween in there, but a lot of idiosyncratic stuff too.

[sionnach]

Re: Samhain

Hallowe'en is completely different. Samhain was on the 28th. All Hallow's Eve is a non-pagan Christian fasting day (which always happens before a feast day/period) before the feast day All Saint's Day, November 1st which was made so in the 4th century when a bishop consecrated a chapel in northern Italy in, I believe, the 4th century. There is nothing, not a jot, pagan about Hallowe'en.


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I'd be interested to know the basis for October 31st every year for Samhain regarding a culture which did not use our calendar but a lunar calendar and no written evidence. "October 31st" is rather meaningless in such a calendar. Can anyone explain?

In the pagan past the Celts and possibly those before the Celts did not have our current calendar so whether samhain was celebrated on the 31st on out calendar more a representative date than an absolute date. Despite that there may be archeological evidence that Oct. 31 is reasonably close to the celebration date and since few of us track sun and moon patterns with accuracy connecting it with one date is not so unreasonable for us today. In the Boyne Valley the mounds of Tlachtga and Tara have evidence of celebrations with large bonfires that apparently used to celebrate the end of the summer half of the year and the beginning of a new year and the winter half of the year. On the Hill of Tara there is a passage into the area called the Mound of the Hostages which is aligned with the rising sun around the time of Samhain which is around the time of Halloween. For our convenience we use a calendar instead

As for whether Halloween was pagan or not I would favor pagan origins. We know the Roman Churched used pagan celebration dates, sites, and even a goddess for conversion by renaming them and giving them a new meaning cloaking the original meaning. There is nothing in the Jewish celebration that correlates with Halloween (or at least I do not know of one). The Roman church that formed long after the death of Jesus blended many pagan celebrations and concepts in its formation. It was not an accident that Dec 25 was the date for the birth of Jesus and All Saints day was created to replace the celebration of samhain as they transitioned a pagan culture into a Christian culture.

[Medusa]

Re: Samhain

This is probably why people stick to Halloween. You guys debating this takes all the fun out of Samhain. It's like debating Christ's birthday. Just open your present, stick the fruitcake in your mouth and sing your Charlie Brown Christmas song.

[thalassa]

Re: Samhain

As some-one said in London a couple of years ago, the most sacred day is The One When Everyone Can Make It.

lol, how true.


I say something similar at work about hearing protection--the most effective ear plugs are the ones you will wear.

[DavidMcCann]

Re: Samhain

When Samhain should be celebrated depends on what tradition one is and the rationale for when they date the holiday.

As some-one said in London a couple of years ago, the most sacred day is The One When Everyone Can Make It.

[thalassa]

Re: Samhain

When Samhain should be celebrated depends on what tradition one is and the rationale for when they date the holiday.

The astrological day of Samhain is the sun at 15 degrees in Scorpio--November 8, the cross-quarter date (the midpoint between Yule and the Autumnal equinox) is the November 7. In some cases, Samhain is celebrated at the first frost (it is, after all Summer's end)...which might be never, depending on where you live...and usually not until December or January here.

Actually...this is one of the cases where wiki has a decent post on the subject...

[DeOndergaandeZon]

Re: Samhain

Some nice ways to celebrate Samhain Unfortunately, there's no forest (or even trees older than 15 years) or historical sites in my region to visit. So I only light candles to honour the dead.

Briton, I understand. I'm just curious why you celebrated it on the 28th this year.

[Briton]

Re: Samhain

I thought you didn't. Nevertheless, there are a few Samhain related posts in that thread so it was useful.

As for the date, multiple sources said it to be today. (More or less) Briton, why do you think it's on the 28th? If they used lunar calendars (and they did), wouldn't the date change each year anyway?

"Sources" have standardized it to October 31st for every year. It's not that Samhain can't fall on the 31st, it's that it doesn't make sense for it to fall on the 31st every year. I do not say that it is the 28th every year, I said 28th this year. Regardless it would not have been October 31st every year as per the Gregorian calendar, as our calendar was created in order to put the Christian Feast Day of the Resurrection back to near the date used by the early church, as the calendar they used was causing the day to drift further and further. Obviously, there is no reason why Britons (Samhain is, as far as I can tell, wholly of the British Isles) would invent such a calendar up to 2,000 years (or 500 before Jesus was even born) earlier.

[Seax_Blade]

Re: Samhain

Soul cakes are Christian.

Gotcha, thanks. Thought it might.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Samhain

I thought you didn't. Nevertheless, there are a few Samhain related posts in that thread so it was useful.

As for the date, multiple sources said it to be today. (More or less) Briton, why do you think it's on the 28th? If they used lunar calendars (and they did), wouldn't the date change each year anyway?

Most neo-Wiccan sources will say that Samhain is traditionally about midway between the Autumn Equinox and the Winter Solstice, though I can never remember if it's supposed to be attached to a moon phase or not. But I have also read that it was November eve as a way to mark when the harvest ended and the livestock slaughter began. If it's the former, the date would change every year... but modern neopaganism has made it standard and acceptable to approximate the dates of the Cross Quarters to set dates.

Here in Australia, Samhain should technically be around the start of May, and today should be Beltane. I don't celebrate the neo-Wiccan Wheel of the Year though, nor the Celtic festivals. I don't even celebrate the Germanic or Scandinavian festivals. I'm a bad pagan lol. Not really... I just don't feel connected to European seasonal festivals which have almost no connection to the seasonal changes here in southern Australia; and my husband and I haven't quite gotten around to organising ourselves a modified calendar that fits our practice(s) and our seasonal changes.

If I were to celebrate Samhain though, it would be in May, and I would do Ancestor work and a dumb feast, I think. I do like the symbolism of seasonal food and using the last of the harvest produce. I would also maybe do something with the wight of my local pine-plantation-turned-forest (Kuipto Forest)... I've only recently connected with it and seems like the sort of spirit that would find Samhain significant (unlike most Australian landwights, for whom that time of year does not match the European autumn/winter symbolism at all).

[Briton]

Re: Samhain

So my wife and I went to Avebury tonight and it was brilliant. A very enjoyable experience. We will go again next year.

I wanted to go light a candle and some incense up at the back of the West Kennet long barrow but it was very foggy, late (about 10pm) and the only other vehicle parked was a battered white van. It was basically a horror movie script mixed with the local paper's next headline.

Soul cakes are Christian.

[Seax_Blade]

Re: Samhain

Well I am celebrating it today, lol.

I took a hike on top of a ridge above my campus--was a bit difficult to get up there, but once I got to the top, I was kinda blown away by the view! I hiked over to this big tree which really stands out from down below, and students call it the "tree of life." It doesn't look unlike its namesake--I figured it would be a nice place to visit, and it was.

On the way, I saw some dark stones, so I took them, and when sitting underneath the tree, I made a little altar type set-up, and meditated. I put one of those green pine needle fan type things on the ground at the base of the tree, then on top of that the 3 dark stones, and then an apple I brought with me, on top of that as an offering. I also burned some incense and mediated; I was thinking about my grandfather who deceased years ago. If I had the right booze, I would mix up one of his Manhattans and drink it in his honor! But he wasn't foreign to whiskey so that will do!

Also I didn't think of it as connected to Samhain, but today I successfully baked my first batch of pumpkin chocolate chip muffins, a "famous" (among my friends) recipe of my mom's, without any help, and I will share them with my living community.

I believe that there was an English tradition, regarding "soul cakes"--not sure if there was any connection to old Pagan traditions there or what, but there's that.

[DeOndergaandeZon]

Re: Samhain

Very true. I didn't realize this was in the Celtic section earlier. My bad

I thought you didn't. Nevertheless, there are a few Samhain related posts in that thread so it was useful.

As for the date, multiple sources said it to be today. (More or less) Briton, why do you think it's on the 28th? If they used lunar calendars (and they did), wouldn't the date change each year anyway?

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Samhain

The "thinning of the veil" or the time that "spirits have access to the physical realms" is celebrated at the same time of year in many different cultures. When or where it started is a good question which might be debated for years. The specific names are all different due to the different languages (just like the names of deities) but I find it "interesting" that the practice is often around the same time of year.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Samhain

I believe Samhain and Halloween to be separate things and will be celebrated differently depending on who you ask. Plus, the Halloween thread is in the Holiday section. This thread is in Celtic Traditions, therefore I expect the answers to differ based on that alone.

Very true. I didn't realize this was in the Celtic section earlier. My bad

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Hallowe'en is completely different. Samhain was on the 28th. All Hallow's Eve is a non-pagan Christian fasting day (which always happens before a feast day/period) before the feast day All Saint's Day, November 1st which was made so in the 4th century when a bishop consecrated a chapel in northern Italy in, I believe, the 4th century. There is nothing, not a jot, pagan about Hallowe'en.

Sorry it appears there is disagreement over the dating of Samhain. The important thing is that it is completely unrelated to Hallowe'en, founded by people who hadn't come across such a festival in a part of the world where it wasn't being celebrated, and for a completely different cause. The modern Hallowe'en with "evil stuff" is fairly recent, post medieval.

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I'd be interested to know the basis for October 31st every year for Samhain regarding a culture which did not use our calendar but a lunar calendar and no written evidence. "October 31st" is rather meaningless in such a calendar. Can anyone explain?

Basically, it blends into the concepts brought up in the Pagan Cultural Appropriation thread. Since there is so much of a disagreement as to the date, whether it's a set day, or timing based off of moons, or the day after a certain frog fats seven times before sunrise, or whatever, it's really just very much simpler for folks to use the day of Halloween. After all, who knows just how much holidays have REALLY shifted since we added in daylight savings time and all that jazz, plus leap year. Which really, if you think about it, it's interesting that a Christian holiday venerating the Saints and the Dead aka All Souls Day, comes right around the same time as a pagan celebration for the dead, which was around long before the Christian shindig got started.

As for the day, Well, see above.