The state of French Heathen groups and racial exclusivity.

[Sean R. R.]

Hello friends, I come to you with an inquiry on your local/national heathen scene.

For some context:

Here in France, about 10 years ago, there was a sizeable movement of Heathen tradition groups preaching some sort of racial exclusivity, justified by alleged historical research. Since then non-racially exclusive groups (and the French pagan community as a whole) have done extensive information campaigns, with even scholars from within and without the tradition doing their own independent research and comparing it with their peers.
These campaigns have had two noticeable effects in the last decade.
The first one is that Heathen Traditions in France are in an all time peak, fuelled in part by HEMA practice focused around "viking combat" sanctioned by state-recognized federations, and more classic open-public events like re-enactments.
The second one being the racially exclusive groups being pushed out of the public eye, and into a silent minority. They have been for the most part excluded from the mainstream stage and relegated to obscure and underground movements, to the point that they have practically vanished. (with one notable exception being a couple of mildly famous motorcycle clubs built around heathen imagery).

So my question for y'all is: How is your country's Heathen branch doing in terms of representation of more radical and racial discriminatory groups? France seems to have overcome the problem for the most part, and in turn bolstered the popularity of Heathen traditions.

[Rick]

Re: The state of French Heathen groups and racial exclusivity.

Well, here in Oklahoma, we built a wall around the haters and made 'em pay for it...

Painting with a very broad brush, a large part of the racist Odinism in the US has always had little or nothing to do with the faith of Heathenry, but were actually xtians simply co-opting Heathen imagery (kinda like Those Who Shall Remain Un-named who were led by The Little Corporal). In the circles in which I dabble, they aren't completely gone (and frankly never will be, cuz, ya know, people) but they are few, far between, and really, really quiet.

[MaskedOne]

Re: The state of French Heathen groups and racial exclusivity.

Well, here in Oklahoma, we built a wall around the haters and made 'em pay for it...

Painting with a very broad brush, a large part of the racist Odinism in the US has always had little or nothing to do with the faith of Heathenry, but were actually xtians simply co-opting Heathen imagery (kinda like Those Who Shall Remain Un-named who were led by The Little Corporal). In the circles in which I dabble, they aren't completely gone (and frankly never will be, cuz, ya know, people) but they are few, far between, and really, really quiet.

I'm mildly curious how many people actually remember that particular being was once a Corporal...

Past that my exposure to Heathenry in general is almost exclusively through PF except when I become randomly curious about something and go wandering about but it's been a while since anything that I might link to racial rhetoric has popped up here. Now granted PF has been relatively quiet for a while and certain positions have always been a shortcut to staff attention but I would have to actually exert myself to find the last time that something resembling racial exclusivity in Heathenry popped up on site as a serious topic. I don't think it's been seriously broached since well before I was an admin and possibly before I was a mod. Whether that means that the topic has just become less popular or that PF has just largely dodged it, I'm not qualified to say.

[Bartmanhomer]

Re: The state of French Heathen groups and racial exclusivity.

Wow. Just wow. 😱😱😱😱😱

[monsno_leedra]

Re: The state of French Heathen groups and racial exclusivity.

I wonder how many people recall the movie THE LITTLE DICTATOR by Charlie Chaplain. A spoof on the Little Corporal idea connected to Hitler.

It's been sometime since I really looked into the Heathen practices other than surface observing. But back in the day I recall the Odinist seemed to be more racial motivated than say Asatru. Not to say Asatru didn't have it's own versions of racism in the requirement to be of Nordic / Teutonic blood lines.

I think in the US you find a lot of the racial influence in the prison system. A young guy my son knew went to prison and basically had to join and get the appropriate tattoo's to survive in jail.

[Rhythm]

Re: The state of French Heathen groups and racial exclusivity.

In the us, asatru/odinism accounts for the main concentration of overtly race obsessed paganism. Though there is a soft race obsession counterculturally, with the understanding that american culture is "white" culture". It takes the form of a fear or criticism of appropriation with respect to contemporary "white" pagans and "minority" tribal or ethnic gods.

Ultimately, I think that there's alot of room for racist demographic growth in paganism - but so long as racists find a home in the more culturally and institutionally entrenched white christianity of their birth, race obsessed pagan groups are going to have a hard time with that particular zero sum game.

[Sean R. R.]

Re: The state of French Heathen groups and racial exclusivity.

In the us, asatru/odinism accounts for the main concentration of overtly race obsessed paganism. Though there is a soft race obsession counterculturally, with the understanding that american culture is "white" culture". It takes the form of a fear or criticism of appropriation with respect to contemporary "white" pagans and "minority" tribal or ethnic gods.

Ultimately, I think that there's alot of room for racist demographic growth in paganism - but so long as racists find a home in the more culturally and institutionally entrenched white christianity of their birth, race obsessed pagan groups are going to have a hard time with that particular zero sum game.

While it's another topic entirely, the concept of cultural appropriation seems to be a double edged sword. It can protect certain communities from having their traditions and practices diluted and lost, and yet it can be used to justify racial exclusivity in the context of such practices. Religion is often tied to culture which in turn is often tied to ethnicity.

[Rhythm]

Re: The state of French Heathen groups and racial exclusivity.

To put this into perspective. If you were to gather every estimated race obsessed pagan in the us under one roof - this includes overt and covert and pretenders (those who find race obsessed paganism a practical cover for religiously neutral racism..this is commonly believed to be the largest subset in the demographic, btw...)..it will still be one of the most sparsely attended hate rallies in us history. The concern isn't their number, here in the states they're just a rounding error within the larger movement. The concern is that it's a terrorist organization aggressively recruiting in american prisons with access to a shitload of drug money. Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida and Indiana are ground zero. I'll just toss Idaho and Oregon in there too, for good measure - there's been some white flight of late.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The state of French Heathen groups and racial exclusivity.

The idea of "viking" racism is a total hoot.

I imagine that the "vikings" were the most racially diverse culture in earth, at that time, considering their world-wide travel, and their method of getting wives/concubines/slaves via abduction and rape.

[Håkan]

Here in Sweden we have both kinds running one larger national organisation each, although I don't know how their state is today after Covid. But after being a member of the non-racist larger org for two decades, I left the organisation ,and the community as a whole, since it all is pretty dysfunctional and no longer feel as something I have any use for at all.