I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

[meinfretr]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

I was pretty much called a false believer and ridiculed (reminded me of being in a church?) by Heathens for bringing up that I use Cannabis and Shrooms in my worship occasionally

Is one not supposed to do that?

Realistically, anyone telling you how you should practice your faith seems quite....monotheistic. Limited. I would not be overly concerned with their opinions.

[AnMa]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

Personally I don't find equating gods with each other as a respectful or appealing way of looking at other religions. To me that smacks of ego-centric 'I'm right and the rest of you can only be right if yours looks like mine'. It's like... oh, I can respect you because you're just like my aunt Jane... you are both blonde and dentists and like the colour orange... you're pretty much the same person! That's not respectful to the entity. But then, I am a hard polytheist so I do see them as actual distinct entities. I understand that not everyone thinks that way.

Not equating - but interpreting. I think the images we have in our myths and minds about the Gods are, well, images. And I explicitly avoid the horrible word "only" here. Those images are not "only" images but very important, powerful and imho necessary to remotely understand what we are talking about. But they do not exactly and empirically describe the Gods, they represent what is behind those images. And that is what I meant with "pretty much the same". The images of Norns and Parcae are pretty much the same. They are so similar that it is evident that they have a common origin or that there was a cultural interchange.
I do not think that the concept of a "true god" existed until this sect from the Middle East showed up. The Romans and the Greek were aware of the contradictions within their own mythology (and I do not know any mythology which does not have intrinsic contradicitons). E.g. there are at least three different genealogies of Jupiter, they cannot all be "true" at the same time. Those different "confessions" did not yield to different denominations, they still honoured the same God and followed the same religion.
We unfortunately do not know what philosophy our Northern ancestors had behind their religion, because they have never written it down. But from the similarities in the structure of the myths and the pantheons and the cultural interchange regarding weekday names etc. I suspect the philosophy was not that fundamently different either. But that is just speculation, perhaps only wishful thinking.
Anyway, my genome says I am 42% Northern-European, 38% Mediterranean, 18% Southwest Asian and 2% Neanderthal (which is pretty average for an European). The Northern and Southern Gods belong to my cultural ancestry, there is no need to squeeze them into one imagery but it is neither required to separate them in an absolute manner. For example, wisdom is still wisdom - whether we find it in Odin or Apollon.

[MaskedOne]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

Plus Tyr is equated with Mars

My initial response this was going to be a touch overly dramatic but from what I hear, Mars was treated significantly better by Roman writers than the treatment that Greeks gave Ares so I'm just not gonna comment.

[Rae'ya]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

I'm cringing. I'll acknowledge some of the similarities between Odin's behavior and Mercury's skillset but unless by "a little less supreme sky god", you mean entirely not leader of the Aesir, this still leads to the highly entertaining position that a someone's (depends on who one wants to credit with a more accurate vision) head of pantheon is play-acting as a lesser Power when interacting with the other culture and....

yeah, my head hurts now.

also Thor = Jupiter?

really............................................ ................

Yep and yep.

Plus Tyr is equated with Mars, but very few people actually think about that one too much because there's so little mythology surrounding Tyr that we see 'warrior' and leave it at that. Then we have Frigg and Venus... which is then used as justification to say that Frigg and Freyja were obviously just the same goddess all along. It's all just one big mess of... no.

[MaskedOne]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

Can you see my issue with this?

I'm cringing. I'll acknowledge some of the similarities between Odin's behavior and Mercury's skillset but unless by "a little less supreme sky god", you mean entirely not leader of the Aesir, this still leads to the highly entertaining position that a someone's (depends on who one wants to credit with a more accurate vision) head of pantheon is play-acting as a lesser Power when interacting with the other culture and....

yeah, my head hurts now.

also Thor = Jupiter?

really............................................ ................

[Rae'ya]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

Completely random question, why'd the equate Woden* and Mercury instead of Woden and Zeus.


*I'm presuming that Woden is either an alt interpretation/name of Odin or someone holding a similar role.

Woden is the continental Germanic name for Odhinn (which is the Old Norse spelling of Odin).

They linked Woden with Mercury because Mercury was a thief, cunning, a traveler, a psycopomp and a poet. Woden was a thief, cunning, a traveler, can be loosely considered a psychopomp sort of (personally I disagree but hey, he's a keeper of some of the dead), and is responsible for stealing the mead of poetry and bringing it to Asgardhr. Woden is a little less 'supreme sky god' than Odhinn is, so a lot of the similarities with Jupiter are discarded in favor of Mercury because of Woden's mythology versus Odhinn's mythology (the differences between the focus of continental Germania versus Scandinavia and Iceland). Plus Jupiter (Zeus) had a thunderbolt. And you know... Thor (Germanic Donar) is the Thunderer. So Jupiter MUST be Thor. Obviously Odhinn can't be equal to two of the Roman gods at once, so in order to make it all neatly fit you have to break the edges off a few square pegs.

Can you see my issue with this?

- - - Updated - - -

I tend to think that the equation of the Germanic deities with the Roman ones was more a symptom of the Romans than the Germanic tribes. You don't really see this so much further north, where the Roman influence was limited. The Scandinavian Viking and Migration Age peoples had plenty of contact with foreign deities (the Saami deities and the Finno-Ugric deities being the main ones) but they tend to be referenced as foreign deities and not equated with each other. So why did the Germans do it? We know that this was a very successful tactic of the Romans, particularly with the foreigners that were absorbed into Roman armies. And of course one of our main sources for Germanic myth and tradition was a Roman (Tacitus) who fought with and against Germanic tribes. So I'm far less inclined to believe that the Germanic tribes were the driving force behind this than I am to suspect the practice evolved from invasive Roman influence. But then, continental Germania is not my focus... I'm Norse-based. I'd be interested to hear the perspectives of this from people from other ends of the Heathenry spectrum... notably Moonraven (Danish) and Mrs P (Anglo Saxon).

[MaskedOne]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

It makes perfect sense to appease the Romans (who have already told you that they think Woden is just your name for Mercury) by naming your weekdays after their system, while quietly going about your business and changing very little about your actual worship practice.

Completely random question, why'd the equate Woden* and Mercury instead of Woden and Zeus.


*I'm presuming that Woden is either an alt interpretation/name of Odin or someone holding a similar role.

[Rae'ya]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

Sure there are differences but the similarities, even if there are only very few, allow heathens to treat Gods and other entities from other pantheons in a common and respectful way by identifying them as their own despite the cultural differences. Like the Romans did with their interpretatio Romana which was adopted by the Germanic tribes as well. Translating "dies Mercurii" into "Wednesday" is exactly like saying Wdoan is pretty much the same as Mercury. In my opinion that was (and should be) a very appealing way of looking at other religions.

Personally I don't find equating gods with each other as a respectful or appealing way of looking at other religions. To me that smacks of ego-centric 'I'm right and the rest of you can only be right if yours looks like mine'. It's like... oh, I can respect you because you're just like my aunt Jane... you are both blonde and dentists and like the colour orange... you're pretty much the same person! That's not respectful to the entity. But then, I am a hard polytheist so I do see them as actual distinct entities. I understand that not everyone thinks that way.

It's true that many of our ancestors took a more pantheistic approach to the world. But it's also true that many of our ancestors were narrow minded and racist. It's certainly demonstratable that the Romans equated deities with each other... but was that out of respect or was that out of their sense of their own superiority? No one else's gods had true merit of their own... they must just be poor misguided interpretations of Jupiter and Mars and Diana. Because everyone knows that those are the true gods. Our Northern ancestors adopted foreign gods as often as they absorbed them. And I don't feel that choosing to change the Roman day of Mercury into Woden's day is "exactly like saying Woden is pretty much the same as Mercury". By that logic, we can assume that the Germanic peoples thought that Donar was pretty much the same as Jupiter... and frankly, the similarities there end the minute you you get past the thunderbolts. It makes perfect sense to appease the Romans (who have already told you that they think Woden is just your name for Mercury) by naming your weekdays after their system, while quietly going about your business and changing very little about your actual worship practice.

Metaphors and similes are helpful interpretative tools. But if you need to equate other people's cultural elements with your own in order to show them 'respect'... well personally I don't think that's honest and genuine respect. Not in today's day and age. Our world is larger now than it was for our ancestors. We have the global perspective and the social diversity to allow us to look outside of our own cultural lens rather than interpreting foreign peoples via our own limited worldview.

And of course we have to be honest with ourselves. Our ancestors were hardly the perfect, respectful, honorable, hospitable, upstanding citizens that we like to think they were. Our ancestors were flawed, just as we are. Modelling our modern behaviour on a romanticised idea of the past may give us the framework to strive towards being 'better people', but lets not delude ourselves. Our ancestors weren't like that. They were often racist. They kept slaves. They were narrow minded. They raped and pillaged. They were homophobic. They were not the perfect examples of hospitality and frith that we like to think they were... and they didn't have a profound knowledge of spiritual truth. They were just trying to make their way in the world, just as we are.

[Heka]

Sure there are differences but the similarities, even if there are only very few, allow heathens to treat Gods and other entities from other pantheons in a common and respectful way by identifying them as their own despite the cultural differences. Like the Romans did with their interpretatio Romana which was adopted by the Germanic tribes as well. Translating "dies Mercurii" into "Wednesday" is exactly like saying Wdoan is pretty much the same as Mercury. In my opinion that was (and should be) a very appealing way of looking at other religions.

Naaah see this doesn't roll right with me either. Rae'ya does words better than me though.

I think, yes, there are similarities between northern and roman (and everyone elses) deity, but none of the northern gods fit neatly into the same niche. So odhinn has similarities to both zeus and mercury, but he isnt anywhere near as similar to zeus as, say, jupiter.

I just dont think you can pigeon hole them like that. But you're welcome to your opinion.

[Ula]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

That is what I find appealing about some of the newer more open "branches" of Heathenry. Urglaawe, Vanatru, Waincraft are all about mixing old and new. They tend to be more open and willing to educate. While they are more Vanir focused they still honor the Asa gods.

[AnMa]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

No, they aren't. The entire concept of fate and destiny in Northern European cultures was quite different to those of the Hellenic and Roman cultures, which renders some fairly important differences between the Moirai and the Parcae as compared to the Nornir. It is arguable that the imagery of the Nornir spinning was borrowed from the Parcae, and I suspect the popular 'spinner, weaver, cutter' triad also was. But that's where the "pretty much the same" ends.

That's like saying that Odhinn was pretty much the same as Zeus. There are similarities (some striking, some more subtle), and they roughly fill the same archetypal 'job' within their respective pantheons... but that doesn't make them "pretty much the same". Even if you take the approach that all deities are simply archetypes worshiped through different cultural lenses, their very existence as individual 'beings' is dependent on the cultural context within which they evolved. You have to discard a great many differences before you can make them the same.

Sure there are differences but the similarities, even if there are only very few, allow heathens to treat Gods and other entities from other pantheons in a common and respectful way by identifying them as their own despite the cultural differences. Like the Romans did with their interpretatio Romana which was adopted by the Germanic tribes as well. Translating "dies Mercurii" into "Wednesday" is exactly like saying Wdoan is pretty much the same as Mercury. In my opinion that was (and should be) a very appealing way of looking at other religions.

[Aeran]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

If I could I'd give up everything in this life, to follow that path.

Why can't you? People have given up the comforts of civilization to seek the divine (to a greater or lesser degree) for millenia, there's nothing stopping you. Sure, you don't have a tribe or village to support you as was the case for the shaman of old, but unless there are exception circumstances at work, you could, if you put in the effort, move to a rural area, find a place to live close to nature, find a job that will support you with the bare necessities and then devote the rest of your time to meditation, study and spiritual work.

Even if you don't want to give up the comforts of civilization entirely, there's nothing stopping you from devoting at least a few hours a day to your practice and going on retreat whenever possible to escape into the natural world entirely.

[Rae'ya]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

Norns are pretty much the same as Parcae and Moirai.

No, they aren't. The entire concept of fate and destiny in Northern European cultures was quite different to those of the Hellenic and Roman cultures, which renders some fairly important differences between the Moirai and the Parcae as compared to the Nornir. It is arguable that the imagery of the Nornir spinning was borrowed from the Parcae, and I suspect the popular 'spinner, weaver, cutter' triad also was. But that's where the "pretty much the same" ends.

That's like saying that Odhinn was pretty much the same as Zeus. There are similarities (some striking, some more subtle), and they roughly fill the same archetypal 'job' within their respective pantheons... but that doesn't make them "pretty much the same". Even if you take the approach that all deities are simply archetypes worshiped through different cultural lenses, their very existence as individual 'beings' is dependent on the cultural context within which they evolved. You have to discard a great many differences before you can make them the same.

[AnMa]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

The Heathenry of the Anglo-Saxons looked nothing like that of mainland Germany, which looked nothing like that of Iceland, etc. And if a Heathen had a Celtic next door neighbor a mile away, the two would have more similarities than two Heathens who lived 100 miles apart.

All the Germanic tribes shared a broad culture. The local customs were slightly different, but language, the pantheon, social setup etc. were similar. And they shared their knowledge and religious customs throughout Europe, esp. via the trade routes. In the 3^rdnd edition; C.H. Beck; 2006). Norns are pretty much the same as Parcae and Moirai.

In ancient times religion was a part of the society and everyday living, nothing with a strictly defined faith or dogmatic truths you must believe to join. The philosophers debated what a god might be, but they never thought different ideas about a god would make up a new religion (see: Cicero; de natura deorum ("About the nature of the Gods")).

All that changed with Christianity as the new state cult. All three Abrahamic monotheisms do not only define themselves on what they revere but also on what is wrong. To join them you must not only believe in their ideology you must forfeit all other ideas. Jan Assmann calls that the "Mosaic Distinction". That was lacking in ancient heathenism. Many modern heathens have unfortunately adopted that due to our cultural heritage, which is Christian for the last 1000 - 1600 years depending on where you come from.

If you honour Odin, Thor, Freya etc. you are Asatru. If your honour Zeus, Apollo, Athena etc. you are Hellinst. If you honour both of them you are both, no problem. But it does not suffice to honour God/Jesus (or Jahwe or Allah) to be a Christian (or Jew or Muslim), you must not honour all the others. The First Commandment does not say "I am a great god, honour me." It says: "I am a jealous god, do not honour the others". That is the main difference.

[thoraxepi]

Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

One thing to remember is that there is no One Tru Heathenry. There is no such thing as an AsaPope and I hope there never will be.

Last I checked using entheogens in worship is A-Ok accurate to how the old folks did it.

The Heathenry of the Anglo-Saxons looked nothing like that of mainland Germany, which looked nothing like that of Iceland, etc. And if a Heathen had a Celtic next door neighbor a mile away, the two would have more similarities than two Heathens who lived 100 miles apart.

Further, though I honor my Christian as well as my distant Heathen ancestors, I do it because I want to, because they are the reason I am where I am today, and because I know my ancestors actually give a crap about me. Though your Heathenry may differ from mine, doesn't mean that you're practice is invalid in any way.