Defining "Black Magic"

[Caelia]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Hmm, some interesting responses...

I look at it this way: it goes back to the "money spell but someone loses something". Yes, you gain, and that puts a lot of spells in the black magic category when you do so, but it ultimately looks at what you're willing to do for it and how much of the intention is charging it. Are you really feeling good about healing a person, or do you feel good that the person is healed by your hand and has nothing to do with their wellbeing? Basically, what are you REALLY getting out of it? Also, think about it with protection spells. Chances are something's gonna have a bad time messing with you so that you're safe.

But, you know, when you don't look at magic in terms of colors it doesn't matter what some chick on the web thinks /playfulremark

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Personally I don't go with the whole 'white' and 'black' magic thing. For me there's intention and there's method. So if you are deliberately setting out to harm someone (for whatever reason, even a justifiable one) then that's a dark intention, and if you harm someone or something during the performance of that spell (e.g. animal sacrifice) then that's a dark method. It's possible to use a dark method for a good intention (though I can't imagine why anyone would want to) and a light method for a dark intention (which some people feel more comfortable with.)

Spells intended for the 'whitest' of purposes have the potential to cause huge damage. While spells intended to harm just one person may do just that. So personally I believe the concept is highly misleading.

Years ago, people who habitually used questionable methods for equally questionable purposes were described as taking the left hand path. This used to tickle (amuse) me because I'm left handed anyway!

As for personal gain, I really don't class that as black magic. As the author David Rankine says, 'A poor magician is a poor magician.' There's no harm in performing magic for personal gain, provided you are ethical about it, and don't use it as the psychic equivalent of an armed robbery!

Yep! Took the words right out of my mouth. :XD:

I don't ascribe to the whole black and white thing. I'm all for shades of gray and embracing the whole damned rainbow. How one sees a color, sound, or vibration is largely affected by their cultural or personal sense of symbology. In America we generally see white as pure, holy, sacred in some way - but elsewhere or in other times, white means the pallor of death and the terror of ghosts. I've seen both uses - white as a terrifying emptiness, a soul erased and pale and sickly; white as a white hot sun burning away one's enemies; so on and so forth. Same with black - anything from death and murder and hate; to mysterious wisdom; to depth, mass, or raw humming power.

That being said, what I consider 'black' is basically whatever comes across that way. I mean, if there's a blackness around the person and they're emanating aggression and using hostile magics, well, there you go. I just don't really tack on the stigma with "black" like some do. I simply call it like I see it but tend to befriend or besmirch (ethereal and physical alike) among white, black, and everything between equally, based solely on how they behave. The colors cease to really matter after a while. It becomes just a descriptor, a skin-deep identifier. I might say a spell is "black" in the same casual way I'd say "that chick at the beach who always wears a red hat".

[LiadanWillows]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Not to be all debaty...But the whole personal gain shenanigans is wrong train of thought. Are you to tell me no one does ANYTHING for personal gain? What would you call Man's number one directive: SURVIVAL. That's pretty much as personal as you can get in the gain dept.

Hard work is for personal gain.
Losing weight is for personal gain.
Picking the right kind of mate is personal gain.

I completely agree with you Medusa. Heck even praying for or healing someone else could be stretched to personal gain. I help others because it makes ME feel good too.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Not to be all debaty...But the whole personal gain shenanigans is wrong train of thought. Are you to tell me no one does ANYTHING for personal gain? What would you call Man's number one directive: SURVIVAL. That's pretty much as personal as you can get in the gain dept.

Hard work is for personal gain.
Losing weight is for personal gain.
Picking the right kind of mate is personal gain.

Absolutely. In the ancient world just about ALL magic was for personal gain. There is usually - if we look hard enough - personal gain in there somewhere.

My only warning is to read something like W W Jacobs' The Monkeys Paw first. And make sure you know exactly what you're asking for in case you get it.

But for me, at least, personal gain doesn' mean 'black magic.'

[Medusa]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Not to be all debaty...But the whole personal gain shenanigans is wrong train of thought. Are you to tell me no one does ANYTHING for personal gain? What would you call Man's number one directive: SURVIVAL. That's pretty much as personal as you can get in the gain dept.

Hard work is for personal gain.
Losing weight is for personal gain.
Picking the right kind of mate is personal gain.

[LiadanWillows]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Personally I take Waite's definition, which is to the effect that it's anything for personal gain. Thing is he also puts protection spells under black magic.

I had always thought that black magic is when you use a spell to directly effect someone else without their consent, such as a love spell, binding spell, revenge spells.

If Waite's definition is the truth then a vast majority of magic would be considered black magic. Even sweeping my floor (with the intent to cleanse my home for personal gain) would be considered black magic, taking a shower, drinking tea, meditation, and many other things.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Actual 'Black Magic' instead of merely offensive craftwork?

Spells that either through end result or quirk of methodology, I find inherently unethical no matter what I'm doing with them. This is a very small list and not all death curses are guaranteed to be on it.

That or the LoK definition where it's a specific form of energy manipulation well suited to destruction but I don't deal with enough people using that paradigm these days for it to be a useful term so I'll stick to the prior definition.

[thalassa]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

I think its two things--intent and methodology.

Intent is pretty obvious--is your goal something maleficent? If yes, black magic.

Methodology is a bit more ambiguous...but basically, is the *way* you are carrying out said magic. Does it involve something negative towards another person, that causes them harm or removes their will, even if the intent and end result of the magic is something positive?
If yes, black magic...or if you prefer, "grey magic"

BUT...the caveat is that (IMO) black magic is not inherently bad...its just magic. WE make it bad (or good), and sometimes that bad is carried out for good reasons (and sometimes that good is carried out for bad reasons). And beyond turning this into a conversation as to what "good" an "bad" mean...which is sort of rediculous, what that means, in terms of pragmatism, is that most magic really turns out to be some shade of grey.

[Ophidia]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

I'm in the 'intent' crowd.

Magic is a tool. Like a hammer. You can build a house or kill someone with a hammer. The hammer's not bad, the person I'm bashing me in the head with it is bad.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Hmm. When I was into Satanic rituals and the ilk, I would call that black magic. It never occurred to me there could be black magic in Paganism. I mean, I know there is in Santeria and hoodoo and voodoo. Are there even those kind of spells in Pagan magic? Like 'death spells' etc?

Oh yes, there are all sorts of horrible things in any type of magic. And another point I like to make is that often people perform magic without really realising it - on a conscious level, anyway!

[Caelia]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Hmm. When I was into Satanic rituals and the ilk, I would call that black magic. It never occurred to me there could be black magic in Paganism. I mean, I know there is in Santeria and hoodoo and voodoo. Are there even those kind of spells in Pagan magic? Like 'death spells' etc?

Yep. I don't know if they worked, but I've seen folks make those type of spells.

As for looking the issue of personal gain in magic. I agree in the vast scheme of things magic can't be associated with "good" or "bad", but I think having those labels sometimes help with perspective for an individual and keeps the balance on a personal scale.

[Medusa]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Hmm. When I was into Satanic rituals and the ilk, I would call that black magic. It never occurred to me there could be black magic in Paganism. I mean, I know there is in Santeria and hoodoo and voodoo. Are there even those kind of spells in Pagan magic? Like 'death spells' etc?

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Personally I don't go with the whole 'white' and 'black' magic thing. For me there's intention and there's method. So if you are deliberately setting out to harm someone (for whatever reason, even a justifiable one) then that's a dark intention, and if you harm someone or something during the performance of that spell (e.g. animal sacrifice) then that's a dark method. It's possible to use a dark method for a good intention (though I can't imagine why anyone would want to) and a light method for a dark intention (which some people feel more comfortable with.)

Spells intended for the 'whitest' of purposes have the potential to cause huge damage. While spells intended to harm just one person may do just that. So personally I believe the concept is highly misleading.

Years ago, people who habitually used questionable methods for equally questionable purposes were described as taking the left hand path. This used to tickle (amuse) me because I'm left handed anyway!

As for personal gain, I really don't class that as black magic. As the author David Rankine says, 'A poor magician is a poor magician.' There's no harm in performing magic for personal gain, provided you are ethical about it, and don't use it as the psychic equivalent of an armed robbery!

[Caelia]

Re: Defining "Black Magic"

Personally I take Waite's definition, which is to the effect that it's anything for personal gain. Thing is he also puts protection spells under black magic.

[Juniper]

Well, how do you define Black Magic, Black Magick, Blaque Magique, Majic, etc.

Ok I got a little bit carried away with some of the spellings, but you get my point. What makes magic "Black" or "Dark," in your opinion?

(PS: This is not intended to be a debate. If you want to cite your sources for why and how you define the above question, you may do so, but it's not required in this case.)