Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

Heh, learn something new every day. I wouldn't have ever expected a solitary version of that rite. It'd be interesting to see a write up of that ritual.

Truthfully wish I could recall more of the trappings and build-up and tear-down that was done during what I was allowed to see. Was not Wicca of any sort but the person was a friend so very little mystical aspects spoken about. Was once asked if I wanted to see an actual full blown great rite with sexual union before the group but at the time it didn't appeal to me as anything more than voyerism. Especially considering the priestess was really hot looking to a guy my age at the time. However I never knew if that was a all of us do it that way or just something that group did.

Sometimes youth is so wasted on the young when we watch and look but really do not have the control to actually understand or pay full attention to those less than enticing parts that sort of tittlelate us.

[Jembru]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

Wait... I change my stance.. you could totally perform the rite on your own.. in token at least. I was wondering how you'd do it in a physical, not a metaphysical sense. Because, at least the version I know, it's a key aspect of the ritual that the chalice moves up to meet the athame moving down, so that the union is equal on both sides. If you left the chalice on the altar and plunged the athame into it, you'd lose that key aspect.

Then I remembered we have two hands! In the coven, we'd hold the tools with both hands (and we always passed them with both hands too), but this was more a matter of aesthetics.

Saying as both goddess and god are present in the circle when the solitary is working, I don't see why he or she couldn't allow the tools to represent them. If it has meaning to them this way, then that would be fine.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

Truthfully wish I could recall more of the trappings and build-up and tear-down that was done during what I was allowed to see. Was not Wicca of any sort but the person was a friend so very little mystical aspects spoken about. Was once asked if I wanted to see an actual full blown great rite with sexual union before the group but at the time it didn't appeal to me as anything more than voyerism. Especially considering the priestess was really hot looking to a guy my age at the time. However I never knew if that was a all of us do it that way or just something that group did.

Sometimes youth is so wasted on the young when we watch and look but really do not have the control to actually understand or pay full attention to those less than enticing parts that sort of tittlelate us.

I'd make about as terrible a Wiccan as I do a Catholic but they sometimes have some interesting ideas. This is something I'd never heard of or expected to hear about so now you have me curious about what other features the group had that I wouldn't expect.

[Jembru]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

Truthfully wish I could recall more of the trappings and build-up and tear-down that was done during what I was allowed to see. Was not Wicca of any sort but the person was a friend so very little mystical aspects spoken about. Was once asked if I wanted to see an actual full blown great rite with sexual union before the group but at the time it didn't appeal to me as anything more than voyerism. Especially considering the priestess was really hot looking to a guy my age at the time. However I never knew if that was a all of us do it that way or just something that group did.

Sometimes youth is so wasted on the young when we watch and look but really do not have the control to actually understand or pay full attention to those less than enticing parts that sort of tittlelate us.

WHAT???

This doesn't happen. Sorry I shouldn't judge. But the great rite is sacred and shouldn't be viewed. In the traditional version, the maiden leads the rest of the group out of the circle until completion. I've heard horror stories of covens that have open ritual sex but it's not something I've heard of in reputable covens around here.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

I'd make about as terrible a Wiccan as I do a Catholic but they sometimes have some interesting ideas. This is something I'd never heard of or expected to hear about so now you have me curious about what other features the group had that I wouldn't expect.

Not the great rite but they were all pretty vocal about the three fold law and it being one of three venues it returned (mental, physical and psychological) and not anything about it being three times stronger or longer in return. Made a lot of sense to me and was how I always understood it after that. Really wish now that I had paid more attention to things during those talks and observations.

- - - Updated - - -

WHAT???

This doesn't happen. Sorry I shouldn't judge. But the great rite is sacred and shouldn't be viewed. In the traditional version, the maiden leads the rest of the group out of the circle until completion. I've heard horror stories of covens that have open ritual sex but it's not something I've heard of in reputable covens around here.

But if its sacred and hidden then your almost placing it in the category of the Elizabethan notion of sex and such. The maiden leading others out or away from the area falls into that not to be seen or witnessed as it's dirty and unclean. One of the things I recall the Frost's got hammered for when it became about purity and sex and implied awakening of the virgin flower and the Kings. Don't quote me on that as I am trying to recall it from long ago. Figure on some levels the great rite was all about procreation and the union to create life and bring forth the blessing of god and goddess, in some capacity a reference to the great fertility rites and orgastic festivals where sex was almost free for all.

[Medusa]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

WHAT???

I've heard horror stories of covens that have open ritual sex but it's not something I've heard of in reputable covens around here.

Eh. This doesn't sound like a horror story.

[anunitu]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

I am getting the feeling that this "Topic" might have the potential to become "One of THOSE" topics,as in plenty of room for "Polite disagreement",so put down the pitchforks and torches and play nice.

I kinda like the free form approach to pagan beliefs...

[Medusa]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

I am getting the feeling that this "Topic" might have the potential to become "One of THOSE" topics,as in plenty of room for "Polite disagreement",so put down the pitchforks and torches and play nice.

I kinda like the free form approach to pagan beliefs...

I know, right? Somehow I always thought of Paganism as a very free easy going spiritual way of life. I didn't think of rigid rules. Am I off base?

[Jembru]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

I know, right? Somehow I always thought of Paganism as a very free easy going spiritual way of life. I didn't think of rigid rules. Am I off base?

Come on.. you know what wiccans are like by now.

[Medusa]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

Come on.. you know what wiccans are like by now.

scary? ...

[anunitu]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

I am kinda the "If it feels good,do it" type of spiritual person. I have never been a strict rule person....rules are so "BINDING"

[Jembru]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

I am kinda the "If it feels good,do it" type of spiritual person. I have never been a strict rule person....rules are so "BINDING"

Usually I am to when it comes to wicca. I don't really like the 'make it up as you go along' approach, but if someone can show their reasoning for why they do what they do, then I'm cool with that. I'd even be cool with a coven, all consenting, that feels the need to have everyone in the room while the HPS and HP perform the great rite. In fact, if you told me this was the norm in the hay day of Gardnarian wicca, based on some of Gardner's other ideas, I could quite believe it. I draw the line at inviting someone un-initiated into the circle to witness that though. By all means have sex in front of friends or strangers.. throw your keys in the bowl if you like.. but please, not in a sacred setting like a wiccan circle. Have some respect. Of course, those coven's that use the great rite as an initiation ritual for first degrees are a whole other flavour of wrong (and this is where the horror stories come from).

Otherwise.. whatever floats your boat I guess. So long as it's with genuine intent.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

I don't think this is really about whether one is Wicca/Catholic/Druid whatever. It's about power. It's about feeling oneself above someone else even though, by rights, there is no way of measuring status.
It's about saying 'I know something you don't know' with a smug grin on someone's face.
So my advice is just sod 'em. If you're happy with what you're doing, don't allow another person to make you feel it's wrong. Probably they're NOT all that happy with their path, and a bit jealous that you're happier than them.

[anunitu]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

Thing is,at least in my understanding of spiritual nature,the idea of the spiritual is to make you happy and content in this cruel world. To find a place of joy and laughter,even as the tragedy of the material world swirls all about. Your "Away" place to rest and re-energize your spirit.

[thalassa]

Re: Apparently I'm not doing the 'right' 'rites'

I don't think this is really about whether one is Wicca/Catholic/Druid whatever. It's about power. It's about feeling oneself above someone else even though, by rights, there is no way of measuring status.
It's about saying 'I know something you don't know' with a smug grin on someone's face.
So my advice is just sod 'em. If you're happy with what you're doing, don't allow another person to make you feel it's wrong. Probably they're NOT all that happy with their path, and a bit jealous that you're happier than them.

This is pretty much my opinion of the person Serria encountered...but...with that being said, on the topic of the GR, there's a whole lot that can be said...

http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/glos...Great_Rite.htm

The above is a safe for work description of what the Great Rite is Serria. As a Solitary, you won't be performing any variation of it that I'm aware of so meeting the requirements to is sort of a moot point. Even the symbolic version is a two person deal.

A NSFW (at least on a work network), but really excellent essay on the Great Rite--both its history and the actual rite and the experience of it can be found at hermetic.com/crowley/other/the-wiccan-great-rite-heiros-gamos.html (at least I think that is the right link--I can't get the page at work, so I copied the link from my phone).


But yeah, you can't do the Great Rite per se, but there are solo analogs one can do.

Ok. Personally, I just don't like the idea of a high priest and/or priestess. I don't like the idea of someone being more important or above anybody else.

again, that's just my opinion.

What Jem said...An HP/HPS isn't more important or above anyone in a good coven. They are just the furthest trained folks--a coven can have more than one HP/HPS. HP/HPS just means 3rd degree, and the 3rd degree mysteries of traditional, covened Wicca, generally include the GR (and usually the real one). Because they are 3rd degree, they are allowed to "hive off" and form a new coven and train new folks. Also, to *do* the real GR, in the coven I was in, you had to be a 3rd degree, because those are the people that have had the training and experience and spiritual development to experience the spiritual possession that occurs in the GR. The GR is pretty much the ultimate ritual in Wicca for a number of reasons, from the amount of energy produced for spiritual workings, to the religious excstacy bit. To see the real GR, you had to be 2nd degree, mostly because the coven was large enough that it was awkward otherwise, and it was something that was done only at the 2nd degree initiation and certain sabbats.

I'm aware of the symbolic version but don't they still have two participants? One holding the chalice and the other using the Athame. Is there an existing work-around to that?

I have to agree that I don't know how I could carry out the great rite in token as a solitary (and the great rite actual would be quite a feat!), so it never made it into my solitary practice. I don't think it made much difference to the significance of my rites though. There are a lot of differences between group and solitary work, but I never felt one was better than the other (and when it came to spells, I often found working alone was a lot more effective...).

I've seen it done with one person...you just put the chalice on the altar, and tweak the symbolism a bit...

Its not really the same though...tbh, the symbolic GR isn't really the GR either. Its like the difference between grape juice and a nice Italian wine.