Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

[anubisa]

Hey everyone,

So I am going to try to make this short as possible. The reason I am asking about this is because of something that recently happened to me. Now, anyone who knows me will know that I am not big on cursing people or causing harm to anyone. However, I have a bit of an issue that I am asking about. Recently I was fired from my job at Longhorn Steakhouse. I feel that it was because of discrimination. I was what you call a Server's Assistant. I sat people and also cleared tables to help the servers. So it was an ok job for the most part. I liked most of the employees and clicked with a few of the employees. Anyway, I fell on the first week and I felt that because of this that one of the managers started to discriminate me. Then then stuck me with a really mean 16 year old who happens to be a server assistant trainer. The first time he did this I was going to leave and quit, but stuck it through. It was Friday when I had to go back to work and had a really rough day with this same guy. I had to leave early due to the fact that I could no longer take it. This guy treated me and some others like dirt and acted like he was a god on high if you know what I mean. Anyway, the work environment is toxic and I already tried to go through some legal action. I can't really take it to court because I don't have evidence. However, I want to make sure that they receive karma. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I want them to receive what they deserve. I hope this makes sense and I also hope that I don't sound like I want to get revenge. I don't. I just want those who have done to me and others get some sort of karma in return.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

So in general, can cursing be considered ethical? Opinions vary, I tend to think yes though I'd be unlikely to employ it in the scenario you're describing. You aren't describing a determined threat or even really a not so determined threat, just a variety of ****s. I'm generally opposed to mystical retribution as an ***hole tax. This is a scenario where the best answer is to just walk away, you'll probably never deal with these people again. There's neither need nor gain in going after them.

The other reason that I'd avoid cursing in your specific scenario is that

However, I want to make sure that they receive karma. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I want them to receive what they deserve. I hope this makes sense and I also hope that I don't sound like I want to get revenge. I don't. I just want those who have done to me and others get some sort of karma in return.

feels like the form of intent that will either fail altogether (if you're lucky) or summon the Great God Murphy and leave you asking yourself "What have I done?" after the fact (if you're not lucky). Cursing someone is an inherently hostile act. It's a decision to magically screw with someone who in all probability has no way to detect or combat your actions. It is a conscious decision to hurt someone. The exact nature of the harm is variable (physical/financial/emotional/etc) but you are still making a decision to attack someone. You either specify the nature of the harm you want to inflict when designing the curse or you leave it up to whichever Power you call upon but a curse that doesn't inflict harm is a curse that failed. Approaching it with "I don't want to hurt them but I want them to experience Karma..." is a position that I'd expect to either result in

A. Your intent is not sufficiently clear and focused so nothing happens. or
B. You end up handing off judgement to a Higher Power and that Power does whatever the hell it wants which may be significantly more severe than you personally are comfortable with.

A is just wasteful and B risks all sorts of unnecessary hilarity because let's be clear, if you summon Justice against someone and Justice takes a hardline position that you didn't expect, you still summoned Justice. You still bear partial responsibility because you requested judgement in the first place.

TLDR, my position is that cursing can be ethical but should not be used in this instance.

The above said, I'm far from the only opinion on ethics in offensive craftwork. Others may differ.

[Juniper]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

What was their reason for firing you?

Also, I don't think forcing karma is a good idea and the possibility of it backfiring aren't worth the risk. You might be better off leaving a review on something like glass door or some other job review site. Have you notified their HR of the treatment? If this kid (also, a 16 year old is a trainer? I'm not sure that's legal... how can a 16 year old be a trainer?) treats others like this, they may be likely to speak up if someone else makes the first step and since you're no longer employed there, it's not like you have anything to lose.

[anubisa]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

Thank you everyone. I'm generally not a curser. I don't believe in cursing. I can only believe in what is sent out will come back three times as strong. I do believe in karma and I just wanted to see what you all thought.

[Rick]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

Hehehe... sooner or later, this kid will disrespect the wrong person and he'll collect a a karmic knuckle sandwich...

[anubisa]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

Hehehe... sooner or later, this kid will disrespect the wrong person and he'll collect a a karmic knuckle sandwich...

My thought too Rick. My thought too.

[Rhythm]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

Well...if we believe that there's ever -any- ethical reason to do any Bad Thing(tm) to anyone....then as a consequence it would be true by default that there must be some ethical reason to do a particular bad thing to that person. You could shoot them, or you could curse them. One has the benefit of immediate efficacy.

I don't know that anything that happens at a longhorn steakhouse or has to do with some job reaches fertile ground for that discussion..but I do respect the fact that here, we're only negotiating. I would suggest, though, that if a person feels they have to ensure that a person gets some karma, they don't really trust in the efficacy of karma. That, underneath it all, they're not actually convinced that people really do get what's coming to them...and I'm not criticizing here. I can see how a sober appraisal of life as it is could lead to worry on that count.

A deeper dive into that might even expose how many of us don't believe that people should get what's coming to them. There's alot of ground between what we think people deserve, and whether or not we think they should get what they deserve. Sometimes we think people should be under-punished or under-rewarded, other times that they should be over-punished or over-rewarded. The whole subject is fascinating. The 3x idea is in the set of over-rewarding..but also over-punishing. The consequences can never, in that case, match the cruel or kind act which causes them. People would -never- get what's coming to them, if they got 3x back.

I think the idea that karma, if it exists, returns threefold, is an issue of transactional social engineering, but not of a genuine human belief or experience. We all see bad people "get away with it" and we all see good people suffer..endlessly. So we want to strongly incentivize good action, and strongly disincentivize bad action. Were the world as it is fails, we seek to repair it. That, ultimately, is the essence of religious thought. Not always how things are, but the way we wish things were - how we think they should be..... and, if it's a genuine religion, the way we would make things be, if or when they weren't.

-and so, when we experience someone being shitty, we wonder to ourselves...is cursing them an option? Can I -make- the consequences I think that person should suffer happen?

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

I believe the wheels of justice and karma turn, very slowly sometimes, but they turn. And whatever will impact that person in the same manner you were impacted might be an altogether different scenario, one you'll probably never know about.

[Corvus]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

I don't think there's a cosmic balance that is always righted. I feel like there's some element of cause and effect, but I'm not invested in it. I think one should only curse if they'd be willing to hurt that person in a mundane way since there's often an element of distance with magic and it's important to reminds us that it is essentially about causing harm, justified or not. I'm not the arbiter of morality, but sometimes I do hurt people who hurt me. I generally feel cursing is unnecessary since there's many avenues to explore before that as violence of any kind is a tool of last resort, but it is a tool. Imo cursing shouldn't be done primarily for vengeance, but to end a situation causing difficulty or dissuade. It is however sometimes more complicated than that and the moral question is still "when is it morally acceptable to hurt someone?" Which will vary depending on context and the judgement of people involved. I believe there are situations where people should get laid out and I feel that can coexist with compassionate understanding of growth and forgiveness.

[anubisa]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

Thank you for your thoughts Corvus. I think it is hard to forgive, especially after being treated the way I was. I don't believe in forgiving and forgetting anymore. I believe that it takes a while to get over things like this. However, I don't wish any bad things on anybody. I just want people to realize how they affect others. However, you never know if anyone will be able to realize that they have hurt another person. I won't dwell on it any longer though. It is what it is though.

[Rhythm]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

and so you sought to ask societal permission for what you would do without it. Amazing, right, alot to unpack. Don't get me wrong. I'm not judging. I would burn the earth for real or perceived offense - and have done so even when life hangs in the balance. So here we are. Wondering whether magic...of all things... is an approved use of retributive power. If you could bend the cosmos to your will, would you bend it so that the Bad People got Bad Things?

[anubisa]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

I appreciate the thought. Now I have let go of it though. Sometimes I think we become hurt. I often believe in karma. Some people don't and that's fine, but it is my thought that what you send out comes back to you. So that is my thought.

[Wicca]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

Witches do not forgive, they seek vengence. As to "ethical cursing" what is that? Ethics have nothing to do with it. If you cross a witch then you pay...and pay...and pay.

The power is to be used to strike down one's enemies or to aide those who follow and are loyal...no ethics about it just the way it is and the way it's always been.

Today's white witches and bored housewives pretending to have the power and thinking they understand the old ways make me ill.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

Witches do not forgive, they seek vengence. As to "ethical cursing" what is that? Ethics have nothing to do with it. If you cross a witch then you pay...and pay...and pay.

The power is to be used to strike down one's enemies or to aide those who follow and are loyal...no ethics about it just the way it is and the way it's always been.

Today's white witches and bored housewives pretending to have the power and thinking they understand the old ways make me ill.

You intrigue me. Your profile indicates your Wiccan yet the few posts you have would suggest something more like Traditional Witchcraft, perhaps even BTW (British Traditional Wicca). Yet definitely not Americanized Wicca. I might have to check out your site.

In a few ways you remind me of Laurie Cabot's perspective on things. But she definitely was not Wiccan.

- - - Updated - - -

Hey everyone,

So I am going to try to make this short as possible. The reason I am asking about this is because of something that recently happened to me. Now, anyone who knows me will know that I am not big on cursing people or causing harm to anyone. However, I have a bit of an issue that I am asking about. Recently I was fired from my job at Longhorn Steakhouse. I feel that it was because of discrimination. I was what you call a Server's Assistant. I sat people and also cleared tables to help the servers. So it was an ok job for the most part. I liked most of the employees and clicked with a few of the employees. Anyway, I fell on the first week and I felt that because of this that one of the managers started to discriminate me. Then then stuck me with a really mean 16 year old who happens to be a server assistant trainer. The first time he did this I was going to leave and quit, but stuck it through. It was Friday when I had to go back to work and had a really rough day with this same guy. I had to leave early due to the fact that I could no longer take it. This guy treated me and some others like dirt and acted like he was a god on high if you know what I mean. Anyway, the work environment is toxic and I already tried to go through some legal action. I can't really take it to court because I don't have evidence. However, I want to make sure that they receive karma. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I want them to receive what they deserve. I hope this makes sense and I also hope that I don't sound like I want to get revenge. I don't. I just want those who have done to me and others get some sort of karma in return.

I've followed this thread for a bit but refrained from providing an answer.

Do I believe in curses? Yes for certain
Will I employ a curse? Again Yes if the situation warrants.

Yet in my humble opinion what you described does not meet the criteria to warrant a curse. In this I agree with what MaskedOne wrote earlier. "You aren't describing a determine threat.."

Even your reference to desiring they receive Karma is not truly how Karmic return actions work. Realistically Karma might reward them with a value vice a loss. You do not know what their karmic pathway is or what has been determined to occur. Inversely, you do not know nor perhaps recognized what your own karmic pathway is putting in your way.

To play devils advocate here your previous work history has not exactly been error free. In many ways I wonder if this is not a karmic return on you telling you to step it up and grow. Working with imposing personalities is a common situation in many job fields. Even the idea of age being a contributing factor seems to be at play here. Even if only from your perspective of being older than them (him) so warranting a difference sense or level of respect.

Do you have a reasonable cause? From what you've said I would say no. Your situation reminds me of a situation I found myself in years ago. I was assigned to train a person who was older and senior to me. I was sort the final straw in his pipeline of training and told by a more senior person to get him trained regardless of how I did it. My trainee resisted and tried to use rank and age to limit my attempts. Yet in the final analysis I was put in charge of training him and was being held accountable to achieve that goal.

Your in the same boat only your in the trainee's position. The 16 year old was put in a position to train you and use whatever force / motivation required to achieve that goal. Unless there is some serious nepotism at play his superiors placed him in that position and said to get it done. Which would suggest he has some level of skill and demonstration of said skill set.

One thing I've learned over my 64 years of life so far is that The Spirit World holds no bars when it comes to insuring people move and advance. It can be quite painful or painless depending upon the person and how they act / react to things.

[Wicca]

Re: Is there such a thing as ethical cursing?

Today's witches want to fit into today's society...laughable. We ought to transform society not the other way around. We have the power not society.

- - - Updated - - -

You intrigue me. Your profile indicates your Wiccan yet the few posts you have would suggest something more like Traditional Witchcraft, perhaps even BTW (British Traditional Wicca). Yet definitely not Americanized Wicca.

And one more thing, why is it that today everyone wants to put people into a box? You are this or that....I am me and I did not *BECOME* a witch, I was born into it with powers right from the get go. I need not conform to this or that to be what I am.